Alchemy for the Rest of Us

[noonespecial]

 

Alchemical products do not operate in a conventional chemical manner. In a sense, they upload new information to the organism and rewrite the operating system. The delivery mechanism consists of harmless organic molecules (C-O-H), even when working with metals.

 

Can you prove that?

 

if not, what is the difference between what you just wrote and genetic modification?

[the1gza]

Well I would ask, how much of this is based on your experiential investigation? Do you have personal experience with Western alchemy to a point where the assertions and interpretations you are given are actually based on experiential comparison of these systems? If so, then it's not just simply conjecture. However, if you are making comparisons without experientially experiencing one or even any of these things on your own person work, then I don't know what to call it but  conjecture. You even started this thread saying that this was based on opinion, so what else could it be called but theorizing? I'm not saying that what you stated was wrong, but without experience with laboratory alchemy, then how can you draw these conclusions without at least reaching for something that you have not substantially experienced? 

[FraterUFA]

For once I agree with you, UFA.

 

Give it a minute.

 

:-)

 

UFA

[noonespecial]

Well I would ask, how much of this is based on your experiential investigation? Do you have personal experience with Western alchemy to a point where the assertions and interpretations you are given are actually based on experiential comparison of these systems? If so, then it's not just simply conjecture. However, if you are making comparisons without experientially experiencing one or even any of these things on your own person work, then I don't know what to call it but  conjecture. You even started this thread saying that this was based on opinion, so what else could it be called but theorizing? I'm not saying that what you stated was wrong, but without experience with laboratory alchemy, then how can you draw these conclusions without at least reaching for something that you have not substantially experienced? 

 

I readily admit I do not have laboratory alchemical experience, perhaps a better rephrasing of the thread would be 'alchemical theory applied to spiritual work' - with that being said, UFA seems to be the most knowledgeable person here, but he hasnt proved anything to me either, all of his writing while intellectual as heck could be all conjecture, he could be hallucinating in the laboratory, etc, - just as well I could be hallucinating during my work (*insert my occult experiential claims here*) - but in alchemy I found the most accurate model for my experiential knowledge.  Thanks! 

 

Edit_

 

its not a big deal, I will go ahead and relate an example:

 

When I was first able to separate my consciousness from my body I encountered a black man expaining something to me about burning spheres, or burning a sphere, or how to burn the spheres - then how there are three things which are One operating in different modes, it was a woman who illustrated the point, she appeared three times in different locations rapidly. I then went outside my backyard, it was real as taking my kids to mcdonalds for breakfast, not a dream, fully awake - then where the moon was supposed to be was Saturn, it began to eclipse rapidly, I ran to get my camera but reemebered i was not solid, then a snap, and what seemed like one thousand crows began to caw violently... at the time I was doing simple meditations based of the Sefer Yetzirah and the work of Abraham Abulafia.

 

Then about two years later I started reading about the symbolism of calcination and was taken aback by the similarities inherent in that first separation. At the time I did not even know about the principles of Salt, Sulfur, Mercury let alone the significance of Saturn or the Crows! Completely objective.

Edited March 27, 2015 by noonespecial

[FraterUFA]

Can you prove that?

 

One of the three attainments in the vegetable work is to prove the reality of initiatory effect of an alchemically prepared product. Properly prepared, this product consists chiefly of ethanol and potassium carbonate. Chemically, there is no known reason it should have any effect whatsoever on the physical organism. Yet a mere drop or two induces effects such as intense dreams, out of body experiences, profound spiritual experiences, and highly unusual effects on the physical body (which vary but in my case include healing of a three-year nerve injury and long periods of complete immunity from cold and flu). 

 

 

if not, what is the difference between what you just wrote and genetic modification?

 

Interesting question. The intersection of alchemy and genetic expression would require the services of someone much smarter than me to answer.

 

UFA

[noonespecial]

One of the three attainments in the vegetable work is to prove the reality of initiatory effect of an alchemically prepared product. Properly prepared, this product consists chiefly of ethanol and potassium carbonate. Chemically, there is no known reason it should have any effect whatsoever on the physical organism. Yet a mere drop or two induces effects such as intense dreams, out of body experiences, profound spiritual experiences, and highly unusual effects on the physical body (which vary but in my case include healing of a three-year nerve injury and long periods of complete immunity from cold and flu).

 

Oh ok, cool man, thank you for sharing!

 

edit: it seems that you get a more direct effect this way as supposed to ritual or invocation. Do you think it could be placebo?

Edited March 27, 2015 by noonespecial

[FraterUFA]

I readily admit I do not have laboratory alchemical experience, perhaps a better rephrasing of the thread would be 'alchemical theory applied to spiritual work' - with that being said, UFA seems to be the most knowledgeable person here, but he hasnt proved anything to me either, all of his writing while intellectual as heck could be all conjecture, he could be hallucinating in the laboratory, etc, - just as well I could be hallucinating during my work (*insert my occult experiential claims here*) - but in alchemy I found the most accurate model for my experiential knowledge.  Thanks! 

 

This is actually a very valid point. Skepticism is very healthy IMO.

 

In my favor, I will point out the following: 

• First, I have made it clear a number of times that I do not claim to be an adept and that one should not take my words as gospel.
• Second, I do not offer instruction, teach anyone, have students, etc.
• Third, I do not sell anything and I strongly advise everyone to steer clear of anyone who sells any alchemical product or instruction.
• Fourth, my sole purpose in being here is not to instruct but rather to gently discourage people from pursuing particular avenues which I personally know to be destructive or unproductive.
• Fifth, my opinions will hardly make me very popular here.

Finally, lest anyone think that I am not active in the lab, here is a photo I took a few minutes ago of a pipette which I exposed to the aqua ardens for a few seconds. 

 

UFA

 

[FraterUFA]

Oh ok, cool man, thank you for sharing!

 

edit: it seems that you get a more direct effect this way as supposed to ritual or invocation. Do you think it could be placebo?

 

The placebo effect includes both perceived and actual changes to physiological condition which cannot be attributed to known chemical or medicinal causes. 

 

So I do not merely think it is placebo, it is the definition of placebo.

 

Though the placebo effect is usually positioned in a negative light by the medical establishment (they often associate it with dishonesty or deception), the reality is that encompasses a neuro/biophysical or spiritual mechanism that science cannot explain. One that occurs so commonly that it cannot be ignored or written off as statistical error.

 

In other words, "placebo" is right up there with "coincidence" as one of the superstitious dogmas of science. It is a label they prefer to "ignorance".

 

UFA

[noonespecial]

The placebo effect includes both perceived and actual changes to physiological condition which cannot be attributed to known chemical or medicinal causes. 

 

So I do not merely think it is placebo, it is the definition of placebo.

 

Though the placebo effect is usually positioned in a negative light by the medical establishment (they often associate it with dishonesty or deception), the reality is that encompasses a neuro/biophysical or spiritual mechanism that science cannot explain. One that occurs so commonly that it cannot be ignored or written off as statistical error.

 

In other words, "placebo" is right up there with "coincidence" as one of the superstitious dogmas of science. It is a label they prefer to "ignorance".

 

UFA

 

i like this fr! if the end result of the placebo is the same as the meidcine what good is the medicine. haha

[the1gza]

I'm going to use an  example posted here as to why I feel that these supposed amalgamations do not give much, if any intelligent respect to the systems they borrow from.

 

Throughout South East Asia you will find that three energy centers are considered to be the primary ones. Defined and experienced by practitioners of Chinese Internal Alchemy/Qigong and other arts as "qi pools" (I can't find a better term right now) inside the body rather than Chakras or meridian points on its surface, even though they are connected with the latter.

 

The Chinese system distinguishes

1. The Lower Dan-tien which on the physical level is the space inside the lower abdomen reaching down to the genitals. - This is a pretty good match with Yesod in the MP, as well as with the Sacral or Sexual Chakra.
2. The Middle Dan-tien as a space in the chest and heart region. - This corresponds with Tiphareth in the MP, and with the Solar Plexus and/or Heart Chakra (Regardie's texts are a little ambiguous in this regard.)
3. The Upper Dan-tien inside the head. This mostly corresponds with Kether in the MP and with the Third Eye and/or Crown Chakra in the Hindu system.

Hope this helps.

 

At first glance, this makes sense, but if we actually go about knowing where these things relate to each other in their purpose and even in their anatomy, much of these associations make no sense at all.

 

To start, the elemental associations between the chakras and the Kabbalistic centers of the Tree of Life are quite different, especially in regards to the GD practice of the Middle Pillar. The Kabbalistic elements are the same as the Yogic ones, which are earth, water, fire, air, and akasha. However, in regards to the elements, this is where the similarities end. In yoga, the elements start with earth being placed at the perineum with the muladhara, or "base" chakra. The svadisthana, or "sacral" chakra, is the element of water in the gonad region, the manipura, or "solar plexus" chakra is the element of fire being centered in the navel, the anahata, or "heart" chakra is the element of air being centered in the region of the heart, and vishuddhi, or the "throat" chakra is the element of akasha being located in the neck region.

 

This is where the yogic placement of the elements are, and despite certain Western assertions, the muladhara does not drop to the feet upon standing. This is because the Kundalini Shakti force is always seated in the same place, at the perineum. Until Kundalini is aroused through several forms of practice, it is locked in the Muladhara. If the muladhara were constantly moving, then there is no way that the Kundalini could remain static, for that is where the Kundalini is housed and locked until freed through Yogic practice. 

 

However, In the GD system of activity, the Earth element resides at the feet, the water element in the area of the svadisthana and manipura, the fire element in the heart, the air element in the neck, and the akasha element in the head. These placements are completely different than the Yogic ones, for Yoga doesn't even have elements rooted in either the Ajna or the Sahasrara chakras. The only way to make these assertions is by having little to no understanding of the elemental sequences that are represented in Yoga whatsoever.

 

Moreover, as stated earlier, due to this lack of knowledge and/or respect for this system, along with perhaps little care for the Western system either, there can be associations placed on these things that don't add up even further. The Dan-Tien, anatomically speaking, is far more related to the manipura than the svadisthana chakra. First, even though manipura has a association to the solar plexus, the seat of that chakra, at least etherically, is placed in the navel. The Lower Dan Tien of the Taoist culture is only 2 inches below manipura, making it far closer to manipura than to the svadisthana. Moreover, the purpose of both the lower Dan-Tien and the manipura are the same: they are primary storage points of energy. The svadisthana is not this for the Yogi at all, in fact you would do well in Yogic culture to transform this energy as soon as possible to avoid imbalancing this chakra and giving way to arousing extreme lust. Lastly, in order to arouse the Lower Dan-Tien, there are practices that mimic Bhastrika and Kapalbhati breathing, which arouse "inner fire" and are techniques that arouse manipura in Yoga. If the Lower Dan-Tien were relevant to any chakric point at all, it would be manipura, not the watery svadisthana.

 

Considering, however, that the elements in Taoism aren't even the same as the Yogic ones (they exclude air and akasha an implement wood and metal as elements), I would again say that trying to draw amalgamations with them is still a stretch. The heart is a fire elemental in Taoism, while the element of air reigns in the Heart area. Now, Stephen Chang says that the element of air is present within fire, so this might no be that far of a stretch. However, in terms of purpose, they might be similar, for (apparently) they are places where "higher" energy mixes with "lower" energy. However, the approaches to how one awakens these systems is quite different between Yoga and Taoism.

 

This is partially why I feel that these loose associations are often based on superficial, often stretched similarities that completely deny the overwhelming differences between these centers. It's not entirely a Western fault, because the East has also presented things this way as a means of making their practices more popular to Westerners. However, the need for cross-validation of systems based on these loose similarities... not only is it unnecessary, it also creates a means of invoking mentally masturbative thinking that does nothing to further the purpose of these systems in the first place: knowledge through practice. I can say that the practices all have some similarities, from my experience, in what they can produce for the practitioner. However, they also produce a wide array of differences, so honestly I feel that if you are going to make shit up, go wild and you might as well throw out the old stuff entirely. But if you are using these systems, I find that those who are accomplished in them stick with these practices with full fervor and zeal, rather than scattering their brains trying to intellectually validate it with similarities in other systems. 

[Michael Sternbach]

I'm going to use an example posted here as to why I feel that these supposed amalgamations do not give much, if any intelligent respect to the systems they borrow from.

 

I would think the modern versions rather awake interest in the older versions. There are always people who want to go deeper and back to the roots.

 

At first glance, this makes sense, but if we actually go about knowing where these things relate to each other in their purpose and even in their anatomy, much of these associations make no sense at all.

 

To start, the elemental associations between the chakras and the Kabbalistic centers of the Tree of Life are quite different, especially in regards to the GD practice of the Middle Pillar. The Kabbalistic elements are the same as the Yogic ones, which are earth, water, fire, air, and akasha. However, in regards to the elements, this is where the similarities end. In yoga, the elements start with earth being placed at the perineum with the muladhara, or "base" chakra. The svadisthana, or "sacral" chakra, is the element of water in the gonad region, the manipura, or "solar plexus" chakra is the element of fire being centered in the navel, the anahata, or "heart" chakra is the element of air being centered in the region of the heart, and vishuddhi, or the "throat" chakra is the element of akasha being located in the neck region.

 

This is where the yogic placement of the elements are, and despite certain Western assertions, the muladhara does not drop to the feet upon standing. This is because the Kundalini Shakti force is always seated in the same place, at the perineum. Until Kundalini is aroused through several forms of practice, it is locked in the Muladhara. If the muladhara were constantly moving, then there is no way that the Kundalini could remain static, for that is where the Kundalini is housed and locked until freed through Yogic practice.

 

I emphasized that the Chinese system of the three Dan-tien is pretty much in agreement with the Kabbalistic MP. I only mentioned the Chakras as secondary references.

 

However, In the GD system of activity, the Earth element resides at the feet, the water element in the area of the svadisthana and manipura, the fire element in the heart, the air element in the neck, and the akasha element in the head. These placements are completely different than the Yogic ones, for Yoga doesn't even have elements rooted in either the Ajna or the Sahasrara chakras.

 

I never said there is a 1:1 correspondence.

 

The only way to make these assertions is by having little to no understanding of the elemental sequences that are represented in Yoga whatsoever.

 

Moreover, as stated earlier, due to this lack of knowledge and/or respect for this system, along with perhaps little care for the Western system either, there can be associations placed on these things that don't add up even further. The Dan-Tien, anatomically speaking, is far more related to the manipura than the svadisthana chakra. First, even though manipura has a association to the solar plexus, the seat of that chakra, at least etherically, is placed in the navel.

 

At least etherically? Does a Chakra have any other than an etheric existence?

 

Why should the Solar Plexus Chakra "etherically" be in the much lower navel? I have heard that idea mentioned somewhere else before... Sure enough, there all kinds of maverick opinions in the occult fields. There is also some confusion of the Manipura with the Spleen Chakra (which is a minor Chakra, one could say).

 

The Lower Dan Tien of the Taoist culture is only 2 inches below manipura, making it far closer to manipura than to the svadisthana. Moreover, the purpose of both the lower Dan-Tien and the manipura are the same: they are primary storage points of energy.

 

The Dan-tian is actually a space inside the lower abdomen. It corresponds with about Conception Vessel 4 through 6 which coincide with the Svaddhistana.

 

The svadisthana is not this for the Yogi at all, in fact you would do well in Yogic culture to transform this energy as soon as possible to avoid imbalancing this chakra and giving way to arousing extreme lust. Lastly, in order to arouse the Lower Dan-Tien, there are practices that mimic Bhastrika and Kapalbhati breathing, which arouse "inner fire" and are techniques that arouse manipura in Yoga. If the Lower Dan-Tien were relevant to any chakric point at all, it would be manipura, not the watery svadisthana.

 

Nothing to do with water? Remarkably, the LDT is called chi-hai dan-tien, chi-hai meaning the "Sea of Chi".

 

Considering, however, that the elements in Taoism aren't even the same as the Yogic ones (they exclude air and akasha an implement wood and metal as elements),

 

I could give you a list of pretty good correspondences between the five Chinese and the five Indian elements, but I don't think you are interested in seeing it.

 

I would again say that trying to draw amalgamations with them is still a stretch. The heart is a fire elemental in Taoism, while the element of air reigns in the Heart area. Now, Stephen Chang says that the element of air is present within fire, so this might no be that far of a stretch. However, in terms of purpose, they might be similar, for (apparently) they are places where "higher" energy mixes with "lower" energy. However, the approaches to how one awakens these systems is quite different between Yoga and Taoism.

 

This is partially why I feel that these loose associations are often based on superficial, often stretched similarities that completely deny the overwhelming differences between these centers. It's not entirely a Western fault, because the East has also presented things this way as a means of making their practices more popular to Westerners. However, the need for cross-validation of systems based on these loose similarities... not only is it unnecessary, it also creates a means of invoking mentally masturbative thinking that does nothing to further the purpose of these systems in the first place: knowledge through practice. I can say that the practices all have some similarities, from my experience, in what they can produce for the practitioner. However, they also produce a wide array of differences, so honestly I feel that if you are going to make shit up, go wild and you might as well throw out the old stuff entirely. But if you are using these systems, I find that those who are accomplished in them stick with these practices with full fervor and zeal, rather than scattering their brains trying to intellectually validate it with similarities in other systems.

 

What you are vilifying here as "mental masturbation" is what I call comparative study. It's a scientific approach that often leads to clarification and innovation. New stuff has always been made based on old stuff, in spirituality as much as in science. That's the natural evolution of such systems, and yes, it's a kind of Alchemy.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[9th]

Any discussion or comparison of the metaphysical elements will require some understand of their subtle nature, as in fire is that which consumes, air is that which gives motion and earth is that which gives structure, etc. etc. 

 

And in this regard, all of the ancient metaphysical systems have very strong, very real correlations - and furthermore they were not formed in cultural isolation.

[FraterUFA]

It's a scientific approach that often leads to clarification and innovation. New stuff has always been made based on old stuff, in spirituality as much as in science. That's the natural evolution of such systems, and yes, it's a kind of Alchemy.

 

You talk as if there is actually a value in inventing some new system but such a thing is only possible on the level of the intellect. This is but a dog chewing on its bone. It is of no importance.

 

These endless discussions and comparisons of chakras, planets, and sephiroth are being met with wry smiles. The words are not the reality.

 

When you stand face to face with the living darkness, which seeks to corrupt and destroy you, infinitely outgunned by its cunning, these games won't seem very important.

 

Best,

UFA

[Nungali]

Left hemisphere relates to right side of the body and vice versa,

 

Yeeees .....     ? 

 

there is a lot more flexibility in qabalah in theory, but at the same time when i first started doing the middle pillar a couple of years back, i noticed that the Hindu attributions and extended nadi points mapping were clearly being stimulated with no effort or knowledge of either on my behalf. Also another example, doing a Netzach (Venusian) rite during the appropriate hours, I did not feel any sensations in the body where they were supposed to occur according to the Hermetic attributions, rather my adams apple felt as if it was going to explode...so there seems to be a definite objective reality that defies the wishes and theories of the practioner.

 

Sorry, I am finding it hard following this post.  

 

Hindus attribute Venus to Vishuddha  ?   Adam;s apple ?   

 

An objective reality that can 'defy' the wishes and theories of the practitioner ?   That I get  !  

[noonespecial]

An objective reality that can 'defy' the wishes and theories of the practitioner ?   That I get  !  

 

Yes. That's what I was attempting to convey, sorry about that.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Contrary to what has been said above it is exactly the lack of rigorous “intellectualism” that is the problem in discussions like this. Let me take what has been said here:

 

Considering, however, that the elements in Taoism aren't even the same as the Yogic ones (they exclude air and akasha an implement wood and metal as elements)

As a starting point. First I would like to point out that neither is the same as the system of elements introduced by Plato and Aristotle, but for the sake of developing the discussion I will use that of Aristotle, which unambiguously contains five elements and is often conflated with the yogic one. Second, I would point out the analogical resemblance here to what I said about alchemy and chemistry here:

 

(Alchemy and chemistry) . . .are two paradigms that have a common set of experiences, but even this common set is interpreted completely differently . . . (Emphasis added, ZYD)

The shared “elements” are earth, water and fire, the Chinese system (It is common to Confucianism too by the way.) adds to these two metal and wood, the Indian system (It is shared by Buddhism also.) has air and akasha, and the system of Aristotle share's air with the Indian system, but has ether instead of space.

Now aside from this each of these systems creates “models” of these elements and their interactions and these models are a fundamental part of a paradigm. Models are logical/systemic structures that map out a set of relationships between the elements of the model, thus the Chinese system has the generation/destruction cycle as part of its model. It also has a probably older model based on the four seasons and the earth as center, further behind that is the primary systemic substrate the Trigrams. I am already in a sense simplifying for the sake of discussion and will really not go into the Astronomical cycles which may be part of the background, etc., but limit myself to Chinese five element theory for this discussion. As with Alchemy and Chemistry all of this background means that the apparently common elements are conceptualized very differently within the logical/systemic model of the “Five Elements”, than they are in either the Indian or Aristotelian systems.

Despite their similar names, the four elements earth, water, air and fire are also conceived of very differently between the Indian System and Aristotle. Without going to much into detail, I will base this description on the account given by Rama Prasad in The Science of Breath … Nature's Finer Forces, a work published by the Theosophical Society and usually referred to just as Nature's Finer Forces. This book was very influential and was the vehicle by which the “Tattvas” (or tattwas) entered the Golden Dawn system and eventually formed what we might call the “new age” version of elemental theory.

In this theory the “elements” are viewed as vibrations which form “solitons” in five standard shapes, each with different properties. These five shapes are the primary tattvas which can be combined, but that is outside of the scope of the discussion. Each of these five have different attributes of which we will focus on these five; to akasha, space, to air, movement, to fire, expansion, to water, contraction, and to earth “cohesive resistance”. These are all well known to people who have studied Bardon for example. Now all of this exists within a bigger context, just as Chinese elementary theory does.

Now let us compare this to Aristotle. In Aristotle all manifestation is because of “substantial forms”, which provide all of the attributes of a manifest thing. For the elements the there are four attributes, two primary, heat and cold, and two secondary, moisture and dryness. Every manifest thing on earth will at least to a certain extent manifest these qualities, in their purest form, Fire is hot and dry, Air warm and moist, Water is cold and moist and Earth is cold and dry. Everything that exists on earth will be more or less hot or dry, etc. whatever else it may be. Each of these also has a “natural motion”, Fire and Air rise and Earth and Water descend, that is why the elements have divided themselves up into layers surrounding the earth

The fifth, Ether is in a sense the odd man “out”, who does not fit into this because it is not part of the earth, but of the heavens. I won't go much into Ether's qualities, but is natural motion is Circular and is the “cause”of the “circular” motion of the Planets and stars. All of this also exists in a bigger context just as Chinese and Indian element theory does.

Now most people just stop here and say, well they can't all be right, but the conclusion to which I came very early, like before I was twenty, was that they could all be right to a certain extent, by which I mean, that if we look at their logical/systemic forms as being like a lens that when it brings somethings into focus, but blurs other things, or like a color filter that separates out "information" about a single color, each of these might be viewed as complementary systems that bring out different aspects of reality, just as the experiments of quantum mechanics brings out the wavelike and particlelike properties of “particles” on very small scale. For some of these it may even be possible to do what I mentioned here in regard to alchemy and chemistry:

 

On the other hand I think it quit possible to create a "meta-chemistry" which could unify them both, but it would be necessary to completely rethink chemistry integrating the ideas of formal and final causes, i.e. the chemical elements as being mathematical forms instantiated in chemical phenomena. This could open up new areas of investigation which might prove useful and reveal a whole set of new phenomena, but would be a very complex process. The world view of Alchemy would contribute more to this than the present worldview of chemistry would. (Emphasis added, ZYD)

Which would be like bringing together the results of a red filter and a green filter and a blue filter (RGB) to create a full color picture. This is type of rigorous intellectualism that I have pursued for decades and because it has always been pursued as complementary to practice, rather than being mere mental self-abuse, it has been very fruitful.

 

[Nungali]

I have found in 'middle pillar' type meditations and 'Kabbalistic Cross' that the 'spheres' that define the cross are not energy centres at all - they are more like focal points to bring energy in and earth it and spread it through the body.

 

Any 'chakra meditations' I have done have felt totally different.   Two totally different practices.

[noonespecial]

When you stand face to face with the living darkness, which seeks to corrupt and destroy you, infinitely outgunned by its cunning, these games won't seem very important.

 

Hey, the darkness has to eat like the rest of us.

[noonespecial]

Any 'chakra meditations' I have done have felt totally different.   Two totally different practices.

 

Interesting, I can't say I have ever delved into a true hindu chakra working. I admitedly toss the word around, for better or worse, it's kind of become a generic term that everyone understands.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I have found in 'middle pillar' type meditations and 'Kabbalistic Cross' that the 'spheres' that define the cross are not energy centres at all - they are more like focal points to bring energy in and earth it and spread it through the body.

 

Any 'chakra meditations' I have done have felt totally different.   Two totally different practices.

 

A good observation.  That different practices can work with different "energies" is a hard point to get across to some of the energy work tyro's who think the know everything because they have read Bruce and have little experience.

 

It is exactly the different level of energy that the MP works with that makes it so interesting and such a worthwhile practice.

[Michael Sternbach]

I certainly agree that the MP is not really about the chakras but about other energy centers (associated with the Chakras though) which do closely resemble the Chinese Dan-tian.

[noonespecial]

A good observation.  That different practices can work with different "energies" is a hard point to get across to some of the energy work tyro's who think the know everything because they have read Bruce and have little experience.

 

It is exactly the different level of energy that the MP works with that makes it so interesting and such a worthwhile practice.

 

Different practices, different subtle bodies perhaps?

 

As far as the MP, I believe it is supposed the build the ToL in what they call the sphere of sensation (externally) although you are concentrating on the energy inside of the physical body in Regardie's procedure, not quite clear on the specifics but recall it being discussed in the Flying Rolls (I love that name).

 

While i dont believe the differences between traditions are as great as perceived (for the most part the Spirit handles all these details after celestial initiation, for me the difficulty is learning to trust the process) it is related to the topic - circulating energies is important, alchemy is about extracting the life force of living thing, only to transfer it into the new medium, obviously in humans the question is how to transfer the essence to the medium, the essence that keeps us living without dying, in retrospect this might account for the restless days, and the days after where for all intensive purposes it was the equivalnet of a spiritual hangover, and we are as good as dead - so you must provide the body with more energy, more heat to continue the work, no?

Edited March 28, 2015 by noonespecial

[9th]

 

http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PP.html

 

The pentagram and hexagram were both used for protection in ancient Greece (V cent. BCE). In Babylon, five-, six- and seven-rayed stars were all used. The pentagram appears in the earliest writing of Mesopotamia (precuneiform pictographic writing), c. 3000 BCE, as the Sumerian sign UB. Its meaning in the cuneiform period (by 2600 BCE) seems to be a Heavenly Quarter and also the four directions (forward, backward, left, right); the fifth direction was "above." The four directions corresponded to the planets Jupiter, Mercury, Mars and Saturn, with Venus the Queen of Heaven (Schekina) above. These are the "Smaller Planets" (omitting Sun and Moon). Ishtar (Venus) was represented by the Eight-rayed Star (Elam). See De Vogel (App. A) and Black & Green (s.v. Star).

 

Pythagoras may have become acquainted with the Pentagram during his sojourns in Egypt and Babylon (perhaps 554-533 BCE); in any case the Pythagoreans used it as a sign of recognition (Iambl., Vita Pyth. XXXIII). They called the Pentagram "Hugieia," which is usually translated "Health," but has more the sense of Soundness or Wholeness, and, more generally, any Divine Blessing (LSJ s.v. hugieia, Suppl. s.v. hugieia). (Hugieia comes from the same Indo-European root as gives us "quick" [i.e. living], "viva," "vital," "bios" [life], "zôê" [life] and "azoth." It has been traditionally associated with "vigor", "vigil" and the Latin words "vegetus" [lively, vigorous] and "vegeo" [to quicken], which come from the same Indo-European root at "Wicca" and "Witch.") The Pentagram was still used to mean "Hugieia" in Paracelsus' time (c.1493-1541). The Pythagoreans also used "Be sound / whole / blessed!" (Hugiaine!) as their greeting or password (Scholia in Aristoph., Nubes 609; Lucian, Pro lapsu 5). In fact Bonner (p. 177) notes that "Hugieia" is a fairly common inscription on amulets, and that Perdrizet thinks it and similar inscriptions are Oriental in origin (although the word is Greek). Hugieia (Hygeia) is also, of course, the Goddess of Health, called Salus by the Romans; She is the daughter of the God Aesculapius.

 

The letters labeling the corners of the Pentacle are the first letters of Greek words for the Elements:

 

U: Hudor = Water G: Gaia = Earth I: Idea = Form/Idea, or Hieron = a divine, holy thing EI: Heile = Sun's Warmth or Th: Therma = Heat A: Aer = Air

 

 

Though the Theta may be explained as a joined Epsilon and Iota, we see here an alternative explanation, for either is an abbreviation for the Fiery Element. Notice how the pattern of the letters, UG/I/EIA or UG/I/ThA, matches the arch structure of the Pentacle; interestingly the Greek word Hugieia has a high-tone (acute) accent on the Iota (corresponding to Spirit), which seems appropriate.

This seems to be the only arrangement of the Elements on the Pentagram that generates UGIEIA or UGIThA (let alone both) from plausible Element names. Also I should note that the above Element names are the usual ones that appear, for example, in Aristotle, except Fire, where Pur is used; however Empedocles (who discovered the Four Elements) uses Eelios = Sun, which is described as Thermos, for Fire (DK 31B 21; see also Kirk, Raven & Schofield 292-3). Also, although Aristotle uses Aither for the Fifth Element (Quintessence), Plato clearly associates it with the World of Forms (Ideai). I think Hieron (a holy, divine thing) is also appropriate for the Quintessence (which resides in the Celestial Sphere).

 

To see what's going on more clearly, you might want to draw a Pentagram with a circumscribed Pentagon. It will be helpful later if you draw the Pentagram and Pentagon in contrasting colors. The lower trapezoid of the figure is then a (distorted) Square of Opposition representing the Four Mundane Elements Earth-Water-Air-Fire. Spirit stands above these, forming a pyramid over them.

First observe that the Pentacle embodies the Physical Order of the Elements; if we stay on the Mundane level we have Earth-Water-Air-Fire, and we can make it a cycle counterclockwise (as in the Alchemical Circulation) by returning from Fire to Earth across the horizontal beam of the Pentagram. Likewise, the Pentacle includes the Extended Physical Order (the Metaphysical Order), which includes the ascent to Spirit: Earth-Water-Air-Fire-Spirit by a counterclockwise circuit. Of course we get the descent Spirit-Fire-Air-Water-Earth by going clockwise.

 

In accord with the Organic Cycle, the points of the Pentagram correspond to the Stages of the Great Work in Alchemy. The first stage is Nigredo (Blackening), corresponding to Water-Cold-Winter-Saturn; it is the stage which causes the dissolution of old structures and their reduction to Prima Materia (Prime Matter). The next stage is Albedo (Whitening), corresponding to Air-Wet-Spring-Venus; it is the purification stage, in which the Prima Materia is cleansed so that it is devoid of all properties and can accept the Tincture. Next is Citrinitas (Yellowing), corresponding to Fire-Hot-Summer-Jupiter; it is the stage in which the Prima Materia receives the fiery Golden Tincture. Finally we have the Rubedo (Reddening), corresponding to Earth-Dry-Autumn-Mars; it is a paradoxical stage, for it is associated with Ios or Venenum, the Venomous Potion. It can be the highest stage of the Alchemical Process, the Iosis (becoming reddish-purple) in which the Philosophers Stone is produced, which has an excess of the Tincture, and so can transmute other matter. However, it can also be a stage of excess, the Adustio (Rusting or Browning) which destroys the Work accomplished (returning it to dry, inanimate matter), whose only use is as the raw material for another Nigredo. This is why the ascent to the Quintessence occurs between theCitrinitas and the Rubedo. In a proper rotation the substance will be progressively elevated until it reaches the Quintessence at the apex of the Pyramid. (See 10.Fortune in the Pythagorean Tarot for more on the rotation.)