Kunlun and Demons

[Guest winpro07]

..

Edited January 1, 2010 by winpro07

[Mal]

Yes you do, you are very observant today. Gold star on forehead for you!

 

Thanks, here's one for you

[Yoda]

Aside from vibing out Max directly from his photo, another cool K sampler drill is to do Kunlun at different times of the day... the practice is strongest between 1-4 am and especially 3:00 to 3:15 am... you can set your watch by it... I've found that it is accurate to within seconds.

 

From a classical Taoist perspective, that is a very strong indicator that it's a ghost practice.

[Trunk]

.. my 2 cents ...

 

1. I've been in a number of lineages where people have lots of mystical experience as a norm. I have never seen another school where so many people report "trouble with rascalious reptiles".

 

2. It's a truism that when you receive initiation from a Teacher backed by a Spiritual Lineage that you are introduced to the psychic space of that Lineage. Seems to me that Naga Loka has some rough neighborhoods.

 

I think that it's a good method and a risky lineage.

Some people get through it fine, but enough have trouble that it's a noticable %.

 

Some predictable unfortunate results when presenting it to the untrained masses. The prospect of this initiation to a parent with children, infants, or a pregnancy in their home (given that we've seen that others in household also sometimes have trouble), for me I have to get out the thesaurus to start looking for some pretty extreme words.

 

I mean, if you're a solitary spiritual adventurer and you know what you're getting into, that's another thing.

 

Of course, this has all been talked about before.

[C T]

In the East, many consider it an honor to be "possessed by the gods" and they go to extremes to

prove their devotion, and here is one helluva documentary that expands on this reality.

(Definitely NOT recommended for the weak-stomached or faint-hearted, and PLEASE do

not attempt any of the feats at home!!!)

 

 

(Ever seen anyone being pierced by multiple saw blades?!!!)

 

 

Happy New Year to all!

[ralis]

In the East, many consider it an honor to be "possessed by the gods" and they go to extremes to

prove their devotion, and here is one helluva documentary that expands on this reality.

(Definitely NOT recommended for the weak-stomached or faint-hearted, and PLEASE do

not attempt any of the feats at home!!!)

 

 

(Ever seen anyone being pierced by multiple saw blades?!!!)

Happy New Year to all!

 

Amazing!!

 

ralis

[Aetherous]

Aside from vibing out Max directly from his photo, another cool K sampler drill is to do Kunlun at different times of the day... the practice is strongest between 1-4 am and especially 3:00 to 3:15 am... you can set your watch by it... I've found that it is accurate to within seconds.

 

From a classical Taoist perspective, that is a very strong indicator that it's a ghost practice.

 

[Owledge]

@Scotty

I thought about answering that one, but you did it with less words.

In the end, we can argue about words if we like. What's a ghost practice? Maybe Kunlun is, according to your personal interpretation. But that doesn't say much.

Some people say they are visited by spirits in their sleep and wander in strange places, but others call it dreaming.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Hardyg

[Trunk]

Some people say they are visited by spirits in their sleep and wander in strange places, but others call it dreaming.

 

It doesn't quite add up that it's "dreaming" or "a manifestation of your own mind":

This is something that has migrated to bother others in the same household (children and adults) who had not taken a seminar. (Background reading here.)

 

Makes more sense that it is an actual invasion.

 

.. or if it's a product of your own mind then that is some kind of powerful f***ed up dreaming. ... that a bunch of students from the same school just happen to be having similarly.

[fiveelementtao]

the practice is strongest between 1-4 am and especially 3:00 to 3:15 am... you can set your watch by it... I've found that it is accurate to within seconds.

 

From a classical Taoist perspective, that is a very strong indicator that it's a ghost practice.

 

Thanks scotty for the cool graph...

Yoda, my brother.... I fully support your move to Mak's teaching. It clearly is helping you and many others. But, let's be honest, you are being very selective in your facts based on your own personal agenda... The early morning hours before sunrise are optimal meditation hours in all meditative traditions. That includes "Classical Taoism" Yoga, Tantric buddhism. Christianity etc... To say that because Kunlun is best practiced at these times makes it a "ghost" tradition is irresponsible and shows your own personal bias. I am not trying to minimize your problems that you encountered with Kunlun. It clearly was not right for you... But to project your own personal experience on to everyone else based on you is narcissistic and immature. From what I have come to know of you, you are better than that... There are other viable explanations. Many more of us have had ZERO enitity problems. I myself meditate and practice at this time every morning. I know you are not suggesting that I worship ghosts... It is also well known that these early morning hours are the best for contacting the higher guides and dieties.

[Biff]

.. my 2 cents ...

 

1. I've been in a number of lineages where people have lots of mystical experience as a norm. I have never seen another school where so many people report "trouble with rascalious reptiles".

 

Course you have... lol. So who are these people? that have had trouble with reptiles? how many people have actually had a visit from a reptile as a result of K practice? or are you just talking shit? Now to be clear here.. I'm not asking you to recite some mystical story Max might have told someone else that told another, then another then you. How many people do you personally know that have had reptile issues as a result of KL.

 

It says on your website that Kunlun is part of the Naga linage. Where you told this by an instructor? or is it another thought up theory like the one of how KL works on your site.

[Trunk]

...

Read the previously linked thread.

This has been talked about ad nauseum before.

Have fun.

 

Beyond that make up your own mind.

I've already spoke beyond my 2 cents

and ahm outta here.

[Taomeow]

Here's another perspective.

 

John is a nice guy. Nice all around, never gets angry. We all know John and we love him for it. John also knows John, or so he thinks, and he knows he never gets angry. Everybody knows that, nobody knows WHY.

 

Why does John never get angry?

 

Maybe because he's a boddhisattva.

 

Maybe because nothing ever happened in his life to warrant anger. Nothing whatsoever, ever. It's always perfect, nothing to ever get angry about.

 

Or maybe because he was never allowed to get angry when he was a child. Parents have a way to manipulate children into suppressing the feelings that are troubling to them, to the parents that is. Some do it roughly, with prohibitions and punishments, and others do it gently, with subtle messages that cause John to understand very early on that mommy and daddy won't love him if he gets angry, that to be loved and accepted, he has to be a nice guy. Always. Regardless of what he's really feeling. "Bad" feelings are not supposed to be felt by John. Much less made visible, expressed directly. God forbid!

 

So if something is happening that causes little John to feel angry, he has two options. He can go ahead and feel, "I'm ANGRY!" and express it. That's going to be natural and healthy, and anger, once released, will be gone from John's subtle body without a trace. But wait... if he chooses this option, then mommy and daddy won't love him. Or worse, they will HATE him, didn't they show him, whenever he tried to express anger, that they hate him for this?.. Didn't they make it clear?.. So then how about option number two: John needs mommy and daddy to love him, and anger that is interfering with this need -- let's pretend it's not there, Let's push it away somewhere. Let's not feel it. Let's smile and be nice. And anger, why it isn't even MY anger, I'm not feeling it, I'm feeling fine. Always. Because I'm a nice guy, see, and if I'm always feeling fine and never get angry, everybody loves me.

 

Oh but anger had to go somewhere, right? It was going to go out and be gone, but it's not allowed, so it has to pretend it doesn't exist... it's a ghost... a ghost of a feeling... with all of its energy pent up and stored intact, none of it released... Where is it stored? What shape and form will it take there? What will happen to the next few million of its peers, Jonh's feelings that John refused to own because he was taught to disown them?..

 

Just curious...

 

Then John grows up and now he has a son of his own, Jim. Jim is a nice guy. Jim never gets angry, because he is so young and perceptive that he can feel that whenever he gets angry, it hurts his dad, because his dad also needed this to be an option but was never allowed to be angry, so he had to stash all his anger away and it's right there, in the tense inflexible body, in the tired, cautious eyes, in the smile his mouth produces while his upper cheeks say "pain, not pleasure..." Jim perceives all of it, and sees how it reminds "something" or "somebody" in daddy, some ghost... ...what happened to him when he was a little boy. And this reminder hurts him. So Jim won't get angry either, because he doesn't want to hurt daddy. He will be always nice. Just like daddy.

 

How terrible is a practice that can cause daddy to start losing the numb ways in which he has to function so that the demons he'd collected won't be disturbed and displeased? And how terrible would it be if Jim didn't start out growing up "just like daddy"? Oh, horrible. We have such a nice, wonderfully functional world. No more than 93% of its population live in pain and misery. Why rock the boat?.. Why risk losing this comfortably numb unconscious state, why do anything that might God forbid bring it to consciousness?.. Let's only practice whatever supports the way things are. And it's not kunlun, obviously.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Taomeow

[Aetherous]

if it's a product of your own mind then that is some kind of powerful f***ed up dreaming

 

Definitely. It's best to keep yourself grounded and "rational" during such a powerful process. Believing in ghosts having power over you, and that you're being "invaded" isn't helpful at all. It's also not true.

[Owledge]

@Taomeow

Great story! I totally agree!

But I think people who didn't get the message in short, with plain words, won't get it from stories either. Although repetition has a certain power, I think the barrier is people's own will not to comprehend.

[Trunk]

if it's a product of your own mind then that is some kind of powerful f***ed up dreaming

Definitely. It's best to keep yourself grounded and "rational" during such a powerful process. ...

Wow.

So, are you actually positing that it's person's imagination (or "inner" demon) and that that has the capability of also adversely affecting one's house-mates with similar intensity? (.. one's kids, and non-relative adults.)

 

I don't actually consider that a rational possibility, but for the sake of hypothetical conversation - let's say that that's what is happening. I'd still say that that's an extreme process to be handing out to the masses, and I'd expect a relatively high incidence of insanity from that school. Still sounds like a serious issue.

 

You would really really expose a parent with small children to this???

[Taomeow]

@Taomeow

Great story! I totally agree!

But I think people who didn't get the message in short, with plain words, won't get it from stories either. Although repetition has a certain power, I think the barrier is people's own will not to comprehend.

Too true... sigh... too true.

[Biff]

Read the previously linked thread.

This has been talked about ad nauseum before.

Have fun.

 

Beyond that make up your own mind.

I've already spoke beyond my 2 cents

and ahm outta here.

 

Nicely avoided. Yes people have had issues. But none have had meetings with actual reptiles or Naga. And the Naga lineage connection is also made up by you too.

[Stigweard]

Here's an experience I had a number of years ago:

 

I'm not sure what time it was when my intruder entered my room. I only remember awakening to sense it's inky presence oozing into my room. There was no shape as such, just a glutinous oppressiveness that poured its way into my room and descended on my prostrate body.

 

It was the summer of 1996, I was staying in a seedy men's hostel just near the CBD of Rockhampton, Australia. This place used to be a pub (public bar) and the hallways still echoed of a hundred years of debauchery. My tiny room on the second floor, lacking any form of cooling to speak of, opened up onto a verandah from which I had a unique view across the road to perhaps the nastiest, foulest pub in town.

 

This pub was frequented by the towns' urban aboriginals and many were the nights where I was serenaded by a chorus of vulgarity, violence and the midnight screaming of police sirens. Only a week before the events I am about to relate I had a box office seat to a mini-riot which left a stream of blood trickling into the gutters.

 

On this particularly hot night, that left me gasping in my room like it was a furnace, I had decided to leave open the french doors that opened onto the verandah trying to catch the non-existent breeze. After endless minutes of sweltering listlessly I managed to plunge into the reprieve of sleep.

 

My first waking instinct, when I was pinned fast to my bed, was of course to panic and scream, but before I could even gasp this incredible weight had estinguished my speech and severed my very ability to think. I say "weight" but it wasn't a physical weight as such, more like a density that tore its way through my mind and sunk it's tendrils deep within me to assault the sanctity of my soul.

 

I can't say how long I lay there, helpless, I couldn't even think let alone contemplate the passing of time. I do know I struggled desperately but in vain because every avenue my mind fled down was slammed shut by my unyielding captor.

 

But then some unknown part of me surged forth. My mind was flayed and stripped bare to reveal something deeper, something filled with an incredible raw potency. I was like the Earth itself with its crust sundered apart to release the primal magma of its core.

 

In an instant my awareness flew to my lower Tan Tien and my lower abdomen erupted in a explosion of pure light. I felt my adversary convulse above me which gave me my chance for escape. I surged this pure light out to my hands and I blasted the full potency of my being into my foe.

 

It flailed in protest, yet still I sent forth torrents of the unquenchable light. Finally my intruder routed, releasing its hold on my mind, fleeing back out of the door. Immediately I was up out of my bed streaming my light before me, nothing could resist my advance. I got to the door and sealed the portal with the light from my hands, creating a impenetrable web of light.

 

With incredible relief coursing through me I turned around ... only to behold my own prostrate body, eyes closed, sweating on my bed, a full fifteen feet from where my awareness 'stood'.

 

I jolted awake on my bed, bolting upright with a startled cry. Confused I looked around my room, back toward the door where I had only just been standing, but it was eerily normal. Then I noticed the sensations in my body. My hands burned furiously, waves of Qi pulsing out of them, my lower abdomen was vibrating tempestuously and I could still feel the 'little sun' that burned there.

 

Out of instinct I got up and repeated my cleansing process. Sending streams of light from my hands through my room and out the door and then once again I sealed the entrance way.

 

For hours I stayed awake, journalling as much as I could remember. And as the dawn broke that morning I gave sincere and hearty thanks to my teachers and to all the qigong and nei tan I had learned up to that point that had helped me win freedom from my midnight intruder.

[ralis]

Here's another perspective.

 

John is a nice guy. Nice all around, never gets angry. We all know John and we love him for it. John also knows John, or so he thinks, and he knows he never gets angry. Everybody knows that, nobody knows WHY.

 

Why does John never get angry?

 

Maybe because he's a boddhisattva.

 

Maybe because nothing ever happened in his life to warrant anger. Nothing whatsoever, ever. It's always perfect, nothing to ever get angry about.

 

Or maybe because he was never allowed to get angry when he was a child. Parents have a way to manipulate children into suppressing the feelings that are troubling to them, to the parents that is. Some do it roughly, with prohibitions and punishments, and others do it gently, with subtle messages that cause John to understand very early on that mommy and daddy won't love him if he gets angry, that to be loved and accepted, he has to be a nice guy. Always. Regardless of what he's really feeling. "Bad" feelings are not supposed to be felt by John. Much less made visible, expressed directly. God forbid!

 

So if something is happening that causes little John to feel angry, he has two options. He can go ahead and feel, "I'm ANGRY!" and express it. That's going to be natural and healthy, and anger, once released, will be gone from John's subtle body without a trace. But wait... if he chooses this option, then mommy and daddy won't love him. Or worse, they will HATE him, didn't they show him, whenever he tried to express anger, that they hate him for this?.. Didn't they make it clear?.. So then how about option number two: John needs mommy and daddy to love him, and anger that is interfering with this need -- let's pretend it's not there, Let's push it away somewhere. Let's not feel it. Let's smile and be nice. And anger, why it isn't even MY anger, I'm not feeling it, I'm feeling fine. Always. Because I'm a nice guy, see, and if I'm always feeling fine and never get angry, everybody loves me.

 

Oh but anger had to go somewhere, right? It was going to go out and be gone, but it's not allowed, so it has to pretend it doesn't exist... it's a ghost... a ghost of a feeling... with all of its energy pent up and stored intact, none of it released... Where is it stored? What shape and form will it take there? What will happen to the next few million of its peers, Jonh's feelings that John refused to own because he was taught to disown them?..

 

Just curious...

 

Then John grows up and now he has a son of his own, Jim. Jim is a nice guy. Jim never gets angry, because he is so young and perceptive that he can feel that whenever he gets angry, it hurts his dad, because his dad also needed this to be an option but was never allowed to be angry, so he had to stash all his anger away and it's right there, in the tense inflexible body, in the tired, cautious eyes, in the smile his mouth produces while his upper cheeks say "pain, not pleasure..." Jim perceives all of it, and sees how it reminds "something" or "somebody" in daddy, some ghost... ...what happened to him when he was a little boy. And this reminder hurts him. So Jim won't get angry either, because he doesn't want to hurt daddy. He will be always nice. Just like daddy.

 

How terrible is a practice that can cause daddy to start losing the numb ways in which he has to function so that the demons he'd collected won't be disturbed and displeased? And how terrible would it be if Jim didn't start out growing up "just like daddy"? Oh, horrible. We have such a nice, wonderfully functional world. No more than 93% of its population live in pain and misery. Why rock the boat?.. Why risk losing this comfortably numb unconscious state, why do anything that might God forbid bring it to consciousness?.. Let's only practice whatever supports the way things are. And it's not kunlun, obviously.

 

 

Your post reminds me of this song by Pink Floyd.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkJNyQfAprY

 

ralis

[Trunk]

Yeah, I'm making this all up for fun because I'm secretly mad at someone.

[Jesse]

"The Taoists say because the ghosts in your mind are not real, they don't have a right to inhabit the land of the living. Yet we allow them in all the time."

 

"The ghosts are only in your mind. They might be in your nervous system, they might be in your emotions, they might be in your psychic field-but they don't really exist. Nevertheless, it's one thing to know this as an intellectual comment; its another thing to practice and clear the ghosts."

 

Bruce Frantzis

 

BOOK

Tao of Letting Go

Meditation for Modern Living

[fiveelementtao]

Wow.

So, are you actually positing that it's person's imagination (or "inner" demon) and that that has the capability of also adversely affecting one's house-mates with similar intensity? (.. one's kids, and non-relative adults.)

Absolutely! The children always reflect the unconscious of the parent. Many times when exorcists are called in to deal with a poltergeist, it is found that the enitity is actually a manifestation of the Parent or the child's unconscious unresolved issues manifesting in physical form... When the person with the issue deals with their issues, the manifestation disappears.

 

In all cases, all entity "invasions" are a result of unresolved emotional issues. If the parent faces their issues, their children will be safe. If the children are being harrassed, it is because the parent is not totally honest with themselves. In fact the Children will manifest problems before anyone else in the family because theya re the most open to spiritual phenomena. It is the parents' responsbility to make sure they have their spiritual and pyschological houses in order, because they are responsible for the psycholigial states of the children. For a parent to blame an outside source for their childrens' entity problems shows a lack of understanding of their roles as parents...

 

I'm not saying that all demons are only in our mind. There are nasty spirits in the world just as there are nasty people, but unless we open the door consciously or unconsciously by not taking responsibilty for own psychological houses, NO entity internal or external can harm us. I would think this would be obvious to all taoists who choose to follow the path of self responsibilty. IME and IMO, there is no room for victims in Taoism...

Edited January 1, 2010 by fiveelementtao

[Taomeow]

Wow.

So, are you actually positing that it's person's imagination (or "inner" demon) and that that has the capability of also adversely affecting one's house-mates with similar intensity? (.. one's kids, and non-relative adults.)

 

I don't actually consider that a rational possibility, but for the sake of hypothetical conversation - let's say that that's what is happening. I'd still say that that's an extreme process to be handing out to the masses, and I'd expect a relatively high incidence of insanity from that school. Still sounds like a serious issue.

 

You would really really expose a parent with small children to this???

I wouldn't want parents with small children to expose them to 32 life-destroying vaccines by age 2. Are you up to fighting THIS demon with me?

 

Why is it that institutionalized demons get such unanimous support, while stray ones, such tough opposition? I've seen billions of children exposed to the most horrible demons by their parents on a daily basis. Why not target these? Petrochemicals in their food, water and air are demons. Water with fluoride and chlorine and recycled drug-laces piss but without magnesium and other life-supporting trace minerals in it is a demon. Mercury and immunity-scrambling critters that never get into the blood stream unless someone injects them are demons injected into every child 32 times by age 2. Electromagnetic pollution is a demon. Cell phone radiation is a demon. Antibiotics for common cold that destroy angels of the gut (beneficial bacteria) are demons. No safe environment to let the child out to play is a demon. Cars that kill children at the rate of 2,000 daily are demons. Carpets that release carcinogens into their rooms are demons. Their little formaldehyde-treated fire-retardant treated beds that cause brain damage are demons. TV is a demon. Videogames are demons. Mom who works full time and is never there is a demon. Dad who passed legislation making it economically unavoidable is a demon.

 

Why not fight some of them? Oh... because they are too strong, that's why. Besides, they have a stellar reputation, corporations producing them say they are really angels, and of course we believe it because media and disinformation and lies are a demon we all gladly obey. All these demons already possess all our children, so we might as well accept and embrace them. But we still need to prove to ourselves that there's something out there we have enough courage and indignation to fight so as to save our children. Kunlun to the rescue!! Let's fight the demons of kunlun, the ones that are not protected by our laws! They're fair game, since bigger and scarier ones -- well, WE are fair game for the bigger and scarier ones, but we're OK with that as long as we can take our revenge on something... anything... To protect our children of course, why else? Everything we do is soooo protective of our children... I have tears of joy in my eyes just thinking about how wonderfully protective of our children we as a society are...

[Trunk]

Petrochemicals in their food, water and air are demons.

You listed many worthy projects to tackle, just didn't happen to be the one that I was commenting on in my previous post. Please pardon my limited expression.