Kunlun and Demons

[fiveelementtao]

You listed many worthy projects to tackle, just didn't happen to be the one that I was commenting on in my previous post. Please pardon my limited expression.

I have to agree Taomeow... All worthy subjects for their own thread. Not particlularly relevant to the topic at hand.

I for one would be very interested in reading about these subjects in their own context instead of arbitrarily squishing them into other topics.

[Taomeow]

You listed many worthy projects to tackle, just didn't happen to be the one that I was commenting on in my previous post. Please pardon my limited expression.

You were speaking in a "for the masses" style, i.e. in generalities -- how irresponsible it "generally" is to expose children to something unsafe... I was ranting "to the masses" in generalities about the same thing... but from the perspective of my own unregistered trademark:

"Choose your battles wisely and courageously."

[Spirit Ape]

That friggin Wun Yuen Gong guy started all this is a demon!!!!

[Aetherous]

Trunk,

 

So, are you actually positing that it's person's imagination (or "inner" demon) and that that has the capability of also adversely affecting one's house-mates with similar intensity? (.. one's kids, and non-relative adults.)

 

"Energy" (sometimes as archetype) is not limited to the brain and body. It affects the whole environment; especially those who we connect with often. And even more especially those who we live with and who share the same genes.

 

Not a big deal, unless you choose not to develop your character.

 

You would really really expose a parent with small children to this???

 

I will only share when it seems right.

[ralis]

The cosmos is not a safe place and spiritual practices can expose one to all sorts of nasty stuff.

 

ralis

[Taomeow]

The cosmos is not a safe place and spiritual practices can expose one to all sorts of nasty stuff.

 

ralis

Too true.

 

The universe exists as the outcome of an act of courage, and expects us to learn this and only this. Nothing is possible without it. Love is feckless, wisdom is toothless, consciousness is nonexistent if courage is not their method.

[Biff]

Yeah, I'm making this all up for fun because I'm secretly mad at someone.

 

If your not making it up, then back up your statements.

 

.. my 2 cents ...

 

1. I've been in a number of lineages where people have lots of mystical experience as a norm. I have never seen another school where so many people report "trouble with rascalious reptiles".

 

Who do you know that has been visited by reptiles as a result of Kunlun? Max says on his site he has taught 10,000 people. So give me 5 people out of that.... hell three that you know have had specifically reptile trouble?

 

You also insinuate that Kunlun is part of a Naga lineage. Who told you that? or did you make it up yourself? They are simple questions. You made some statements, back them up.

 

I'm assuming that you are giving the bad press in order to assist would be practitioners should they read your posts? so is that genuine concern? if it is you will be not mind answering my questions. Just two simple questions, I'm not asking for an essay. If you are just going to brush my questions off and point me somwhere ellse then you are really not concerned with anything but putting your negative intentions on others.

 

Your site specifically gives a warning about the Kunlun lineage. Who told you it's part of the naga lineage? did Max tell you that?

 

From your site;

 

WARNING! Lineage warning

The head Teacher of the KunlunBliss school is associated with a naga (google it) spiritual lineage. It's a truism that when you receive a blessing from a Teacher that you also come into contact with the psychic space of his/her spiritual support. Many people, after Kunlun seminars, start having experiences with the nagas. This is often quite surprising to westerners. For some, they find it quite beneficial and it opens up a new reverence and appreciation for that kind of being. (Whether they choose to continue the association, or to direct attention elsewhere, is up to the student.) For others, if they'd known in advance that the nagas were part of initiation, perhaps wouldn't have participated. Yet others continue and deepen the association and find the sometimes-wild interactions to be disturbingly detrimental and stubborn to resolve. Lineage, associating with spiritual support, is a big deal in spiritual life. You should know about it so that you can choose and proceed in a way that you feel is most appropriate for you.

 

So, where did you learn this? and who are these many people that have had experiences with nagas?

[Yoda]

All of this is rehash... I was hoping maybe rodgerj might bring this discussion up a notch to include some advanced K topics perhaps?

[Aetherous]

I was hoping maybe rodgerj might bring this discussion up a notch to include some advanced K topics perhaps?

 

Yes, I'm curious to know what is considered to be "advanced"?

[Trunk]

If you are just going to brush my questions off and point me somwhere ellse ...

Yes, I am.

[Biff]

Yes, I am.

 

[ralis]

It is as if some just want a warm and fuzzy spiritual experience. Just ascend into the heavens and everything will be just fine!

 

ralis

[Mal#2]

Edited January 2, 2010 by Mal#2

[Spirit Ape]

I dont think you want to bring back WYG!!! BUT IF YOU INSIST....

 

Honestly, Kunlun isnt a bad practice I think miss understood and most people have no idea of what the postures do therefore have no control of what can happen during chi kung, nei gung, hei gung whatever. He has a closing that should ground people and maybe people should clean there auras and cold shower cleansing this also helps since its all mind and Kunlun 1 supposivly shakes up the energy good and bad and people cant deal with this and hasnt prepared themselves for their own experience they just introduced, be it there own demons or outside. No matter all Qi Kung is a form of Magic you gotta know your shit before jumping into the spirit world.

 

Regards

Ape

[witch]

Thank you.

 

The central concern of taoism is time. Much the way western sciences and Indo-European religions and philosophies alike have become proficient in studying and manipulating space, taoism dedicated its main efforts to studying and manipulating time. (Please nobody come back with any no-space no-time all-is-one advaita whacks on the head with scrolls of sutras, I don't discuss these subjects with houtian-based temporal beings. )

 

So where you find spacially based ideas of development ('evolving') in Indo-European practices (pyramid-like, fire-like, upward-mobile, "ascention"-oriented, from the "lower" to the "higher," from earth to heaven, from root chakra to crown chakra, from "lower" to "higher" vibrations, etc. etc. ad infinitum), you find temporally based ideas of development in taoist practices (flowing-water-like, loopy, "to and fro goes the Way," cyclical, "the way of tao is return," from Conception to Growth to Fruition to Consummation back to Conception, etc., from the "earlier" to the "later" -- as in Earlier Heaven and Later Heaven -- and back, from wuji to taiji to bagua to the 64 hexagrams of which No. 63 is called "already accomplished" but No.64 following it is called "not yet accomplished!")

 

All Indo-European ones (whether religious, philosophical or scientific in their application of these spacial concerns) can be viewed as one system because they all follow the same paradigm. All East Asian ones originating in Chinese taoism can also be viewed as one system, a different one, because they all follow the same temporal paradigm. And then there's the crosses-between, e.g. zen or Tibetan dzogchen which partake of both Indo-European -- buddhist -- and East Asian -- taoist -- input.

 

So, practical methods used by each of these two major post-shamanic systems will differ accordingly. To understand taoist alchemy, one has to understand this crucial space-derived vs. time-derived set of concerns first, otherwise the tools for assessing the goals of the practice in context won't be there from the start and one will wind up not actually knowing, despite "believing something about," what it is she is in fact practicing and why. Wait, my cat is eating my New Year's cake, gotta run rescue it... later...

 

Very interesting. I believe this is also the case with the differences between Chinese astrology and Western astrology. Western astrology is based on space and Chinese astrology is based on time.

[rain]

Absolutely! The children always reflect the unconscious of the parent. Many times when exorcists are called in to deal with a poltergeist, it is found that the enitity is actually a manifestation of the Parent or the child's unconscious unresolved issues manifesting in physical form... When the person with the issue deals with their issues, the manifestation disappears.

 

In all cases, all entity "invasions" are a result of unresolved emotional issues. If the parent faces their issues, their children will be safe. If the children are being harrassed, it is because the parent is not totally honest with themselves. In fact the Children will manifest problems before anyone else in the family because theya re the most open to spiritual phenomena. It is the parents' responsbility to make sure they have their spiritual and pyschological houses in order, because they are responsible for the psycholigial states of the children. For a parent to blame an outside source for their childrens' entity problems shows a lack of understanding of their roles as parents...

 

I'm not saying that all demons are only in our mind. There are nasty spirits in the world just as there are nasty people, but unless we open the door consciously or unconsciously by not taking responsibilty for own psychological houses, NO entity internal or external can harm us. I would think this would be obvious to all taoists who choose to follow the path of self responsibilty. IME and IMO, there is no room for victims in Taoism...

 

 

I think your posts are very accurate and constructive contribution to this discussion.

 

Edited January 2, 2010 by rain

[witch]

To be on topic, not specifically to Kunlun but in a general way about demons, I've found that dealing with entities is a lot like dating. I think there are two sorts of entities--those that are within you that are either peculiar to yourself or manifestations within yourself of a divine being, and those that are from other people. If you are deep down needing an entity from another person for some reason or another, ALL the other entities from other people will be able to find you more easily and you will be able to feel them. Kind of like a cat in heat. I think there are two ways to deal with this. One is to do lots of anti-entity practice and get rid of them all, but I would assume that would be lots of trouble and require constant vigilance. The other thing to do is find the entity that is right for you and go with it all the way. Once the entity is able to exchange with you, to tell you the thing you need to know, then that entity and all the other entities will go away.

 

I should probably crosspost this down in my practice journal.

[Taomeow]

To be on topic, not specifically to Kunlun but in a general way about demons, I've found that dealing with entities is a lot like dating.

 

Exactly!

 

Now in China before "historic materialism" (a term of Marxist philosophy describing what people are expected to be guided by philosophically, which proclaims all spirits, demons, deities, etc., harmful capitalist tools of exploitation), this kind of dating was done by arrangement, much like human dating: you didn't just go out and date "anybody," your parents consulted a taoist fortune teller and chose your prospective match. Now comes modern dating where you get into something, you don't know what you're getting into, could be good, could be bad... and spirit communication that some practices make possible follows the same line of unpredictability. Not just with Kunlun. It's just that with Kunlun it's like going to a party -- someone might start hitting on you -- vs. going to a library with a zen sitting, e.g. -- you might meet your date there too, but the whole atmosphere is less frisky, so chances are lower.

 

Taoists (and if a village had none, buddhists) were the ones who dealt with spirits professionally, and their task was to screen out whatever "dates" you may have picked up in the spirit world who you didn't intend to "marry."

 

The easiest and most immediate method for seeing spirits, ghosts, etc. is to sprinkle powdered rhinoceros horn into a burning fire. Taoists specializing in exorcism and ghostbusting (a major source of income for wandering taoists of old, who usually carried a bit of that powder, a gourd for trapping spirits, and other tools of the trade) mixed it into candle wax and used these special candles for the purpose. Interestingly, this was also a remedy for asthma. Probably has something to do with spirits stealing breath. Of course rhinoceros is currently endangered, like pretty much everything else. Otherwise anyone visited by anything in kunlun could easily find out what or who the visitor really is. There would be many surprises...

 

A lay person's method for removing lesser spirits from the house is to offer alcohol to the god of fire living in the hearth in every home (in a modern home, in the stove...) I do it so as to keep him (it's a he) happy -- when he's satisfied he will keep spirits that steal nutrients from the food you cook from doing so. Mine likes tequila.

[C T]

 

A lay person's method for removing lesser spirits from the house is to offer alcohol to the god of fire living in the hearth in every home (in a modern home, in the stove...) I do it so as to keep him (it's a he) happy -- when he's satisfied he will keep spirits that steal nutrients from the food you cook from doing so. Mine likes tequila.

In Cantonese this god is known as "Dei Chu Koong", trans. as Chief Guardian of the Abode. I think it resides in your stove because you have not made an altar to give it a home. If you did, i am sure it would gladly take up residence at the altar. Some loves sake!!

[lino]

.. my 2 cents ...

 

1. I've been in a number of lineages where people have lots of mystical experience as a norm. I have never seen another school where so many people report "trouble with rascalious reptiles".

 

2. It's a truism that when you receive initiation from a Teacher backed by a Spiritual Lineage that you are introduced to the psychic space of that Lineage. Seems to me that Naga Loka has some rough neighborhoods.

 

I think that it's a good method and a risky lineage.

Some people get through it fine, but enough have trouble that it's a noticable %.

 

Some predictable unfortunate results when presenting it to the untrained masses. The prospect of this initiation to a parent with children, infants, or a pregnancy in their home (given that we've seen that others in household also sometimes have trouble), for me I have to get out the thesaurus to start looking for some pretty extreme words.

 

I mean, if you're a solitary spiritual adventurer and you know what you're getting into, that's another thing.

 

Of course, this has all been talked about before.

 

Those "reptiles" may, in fact, not be "reptiles"...may just be an appearance a ghost manufactures out of somebody's fears. On the universal scale, even a weak human could be powerful. It may be possible that a lot of the astral wildlife are out to knock humans down a notch, simply because humans attain in a very short time, whether 15, 30, or 100 years. Even 100 years is a short time on the universal scale.

[fiveelementtao]

TM, I enjoy as always your posts but I think Witch is describing something different than folk shamanism here...

 

On the whole, witch I disagree with the basic premise of your thinking. IME, There is a difference between listening and interacting with one's guides or angels, protective spirits etc.. and communing with disembodied spirits... You are arguing from an assumption that people have a fundamental need to have "exchanges" with disembodied spirits that have an agenda. I think this reflects a personal bias on your part. We have discussed in previous threads how you have a personal desire to to commune with spirits rather than people. Your post seem s to me to reflect this personal bias. IME and IMO Communing with lower disembodied spirits is a drug. It does nothing but encourage unhealthy dependance and ultimately drains us of power...

I think there are two ways to deal with this. One is to do lots of anti-entity practice and get rid of them all, but I would assume that would be lots of trouble and require constant vigilance.

This again reflects an assumption that everyone has to deal with intrusive entities, so it's just easier to learn to live with it. I think this is just your personal experience...My experience is very different. If someone has disembodied's following them around that is not normal. IMe, Once anyone realizes that seeking an exchange with a disembodied entity is co-dependent and an excuse to divert oneself from their feelings, and is willing to move past that stage in life, the enities not only leave, they flee in terror... There may be an initial struggle as the individual struggles with their own resistance and addiction to the entity, but once that shift has been made and the individual seeks to face their issues, usually with professional help, entities are never a problem again.

The other thing to do is find the entity that is right for you and go with it all the way. Once the entity is able to exchange with you, to tell you the thing you need to know, then that entity and all the other entities will go away.

What kind of entities are we talking about? Spiritual guides, guardian angels, higher teachers etc... IME, these types of spirits have no agenda or need to "exchange" with us. They are only here to help us and have no need for us to even recognize or acknowledge their presence. That isn't to say that we can't communicate with them, but their involvement in our lives is only to help and they need and want nothing from us..... Energetically, IMO and IME, no human needs to exchange anything with outside entities. If we are connected to ourselves and to Spirit,we have all of Infinity within us and have access to all of the Universe. Dieties are a slightly different matter. Dieties seem to exist outside of us but are really just projection of the cosmos within. Like the Five elements: they can be worshipped or merged with like dieties but they are also parts of us. They are not outside of us and whatever sacrifices we give them are really things we need to balance and strenghthen ourselves internally. IME, Entities roaming around looking for a human to attach themselves to are always entities disconnected to the Source. Whatever "information" they pretend to offer is B.S. Their only intention is to steal your energy.

[Owledge]

A lay person's method for removing lesser spirits from the house is to offer alcohol to the god of fire living in the hearth in every home (in a modern home, in the stove...)

Your contributions to discussions are usually of very high quality, but this time you merely stated the obvious. Of course you literally remove lesser spirits from the house when you burn your tequila stock.

 

@5et

You're always talking about "dieties". Say... are you hungry? Is that a freudian slip there? Surely you mean deities.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Hardyg

[Taomeow]

In Cantonese this god is known as "Dei Chu Koong", trans. as Chief Guardian of the Abode. I think it resides in your stove because you have not made an altar to give it a home. If you did, i am sure it would gladly take up residence at the altar. Some loves sake!!

Thanks, CowTao/

I do have a taoist altar, but the god of fire wants to live in the stove. On the altar I have gods who wanted to be there. (Including two buddhist deities, one of which is represented by a statue sitting in full lotus holding hands in the Red Phoenix mudra exactly as taught by Max. This buddha, of superb quality, showed up at the thrift shop next door when I started practicing kunlun and RP. I had never seen one like him before, but after I bought the statue, I researched and found out that he's the Sevenfold Buddha actually, comprized of himself and seven others, a very important guy. Kunlun introduced us... )

 

Your contributions to discussions are usually of very high quality, but this time you merely stated the obvious. Of course you literally remove lesser spirits from the house when you burn your tequila stock.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

[Owledge]

A propos Cantonese... Does anybody here speak Cartoonese? I need a translation of "zing" and "swoosh".

[Taomeow]

TM, I enjoy as always your posts but I think Witch is describing something different than folk shamanism here...

 

On the whole, witch I disagree with the basic premise of your thinking. IME, There is a difference between listening and interacting with one's guides or angels, protective spirits etc.. and communing with disembodied spirits... You are arguing from an assumption that people have a fundamental need to have "exchanges" with disembodied spirits that have an agenda. I think this reflects a personal bias on your part. We have discussed in previous threads how you have a personal desire to to commune with spirits rather than people. Your post seem s to me to reflect this personal bias. IME and IMO Communing with lower disembodied spirits is a drug. It does nothing but encourage unhealthy dependance and ultimately drains us of power...

 

5ET,

I've no time to argue, sorry, but you ascribe an "agenda" to me quite with no merit. I am a traditionalist. I only practice what my teachers taught me to practice. The thing is, all of my practices always interconnect and none of them are randomly picked up -- e.g., maoshan sorcery (not 'folk shamanism') led me to kunlun, kunlun to vegetalista shamans, shamans to longmen pai. I just follow the yellow brick road.