The first jhana

[Tibetan_Ice]

Is like having an orgasm that lasts and lasts and lasts!

 

Once you understand the difference between awareness and knowing, and learn how to stabilize and concentrate the knowing into a focused beam, fixed on one spot, you will see what I mean.

[idiot_stimpy]

Is the orgasm sensation inside your head, or is it a whole body experience for you?

[seekingbuddha]

1. I am  suddenly  wondering  if   mind  is  "stabilized / tranquil / still"    during  an  orgasm. 

Is  it  possible  to  "concentrate knowing"  (into a focused beam, fixed on one spot) ??

Is  this a good  simile ?

How  else  could it be  characterized,  in more detail and words ? 

Of  relevance is also the question of  "Can it be characterized by someone who has not seen / experienced  beyond it (for example, 2nd jhana)."

[Tibetan_Ice]

Is the orgasm sensation inside your head, or is it a whole body experience for you?

At first the sensation is localized at the genital region. There is no 'sexual arousal'. It feels like a field or cloud of ecstatic ecstasy. After a while it spreads out into the lower torso and somewhat up the spinal column. .

According the Buddha's instruction (if you want to believe that that is what he taught) you are supposed to kneed it and spread it throuhout the body, like water into dough.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

• I am suddenly wondering if mind is "stabilized / tranquil / still" during an orgasm.
• Is it possible to "concentrate knowing" (into a focused beam, fixed on one spot) ??
• Is this a good simile ?
• How else could it be characterized, in more detail and words ?
• Of relevance is also the question of "Can it be characterized by someone who has not seen / experienced beyond it (for example, 2nd jhana)."

1) Orgasms are too disruptive and there is no control. The sensations of rapture, or ecstasy are a slow even flow that go on and on. The last time this occured, it lasted for about 45 minutes.

2) Yes. Within the field of awareness, you can move your attention around and pick out objects, or points to put your attention on. However, you are still 'knowing' the entire field through your senses, your eye consciousness, ear consciousness etc. Gradually, I learned how to focus the big 'knowing' into a point. You can actually control it. It takes allot of effort at first, and then something clicks in and there is just the 'knowing' of that spot.. In my case, it is the anapana spot, between the upper lip and the nostrils. And, you just 'feel' the sensations of cool and warm as the breath passes.. You don't follow the breath as it moves in and out (although I have had success with that method too..)

3) The main distinction is between attention/awareness and 'knowing'. When you know something, you are only focused on that and you know that you are only knowing that. But it is a field, and you can shrink it down through 'interest', effort and willpower.

4) Knowing is connected to willpower and the heart. It is not the focusing of attention on a point while you are still aware (to a lesser degree) of extraneous sounds, movements, stimuli, etc. It is the whole-hearted devotion, something comes up from below and focuses.

5) I don't see why not. You can jump into any of the jhanas at will, and these states even happen if you know nothing about the jhanas.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

So can you give us a method for doing this?

http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=19682

 

The method I use is to focus on the sensation of the breath as it passes through that area between the upper lip and the nostrils, not following the breath but instead, feeling the sensation of the cool inbreath and the warm outbreath. Not interfering with the breath, letting it be. Relaxing, but putting allot of interest and desire to know and follow the sensations at that spot. It is hard to do. It requires effort. But if you can succeed, the bigger field on 'knowing' condenses or focuses on just that spot. It appears as a sort of whitish light or circle about 1/4 of an inch. You can tell when the 'knowing' condenses because you are longer aware of the external or extraneous stimuli, but it is a quick event. All of a sudden the knowing localizes, then the rapture starts immediately at that point.

[seekingbuddha]

Usually my tendency is to resist reply to posts like these,  as part of my practice to subdue my ego.  But, i reply here out of compassion for all who may wind up reading this thread. So, i want to  clarify my prior post here.....

 

First of all, i want to establish that my questions were not posed out of ignorance on this topic, but were posed to dispel differences  in our terminology and understanding of words of Buddha, the Supremely Enlightened One.

1) Orgasms are too disruptive and there is no control. The sensations of rapture, or ecstasy are a slow even flow that go on and on. The last time this occured, it lasted for about 45 minutes.

As you have said here,  orgasms  are too disruptive  and  do not have the base of  tranquility/stillness/mindfulness.  My first question was merely to point out this  fact and is related to my 3rd question,  which was posed only to establish that Orgasm is not a good simile to describe jhanas.

 

2) Yes. Within the field of awareness, you can move your attention around and pick out objects, or points to put your attention on. However, you are still 'knowing' the entire field through your senses, your eye consciousness, ear consciousness etc. Gradually, I learned how to focus the big 'knowing' into a point. You can actually control it. It takes allot of effort at first, and then something clicks in and there is just the 'knowing' of that spot.. In my case, it is the anapana spot, between the upper lip and the nostrils. And, you just 'feel' the sensations of cool and warm as the breath passes.. You don't follow the breath.

3) The main distinction is between attention/awareness and 'knowing'. When you know something, you are only focused on that and you know that you are only knowing that. But it is a field, and you can shrink it down through 'interest', effort and willpower.

4) Knowing is connected to willpower and the heart.  It is not the focusing of attention on a point while you are still aware (to a lesser degree) of extraneous sounds, movements, stimuli, etc.  It is the whole-hearted devotion, something comes up from below and focuses.

Only  my second question was about "knowing".   In my terminology,  knowing  is  NOT a verb/action.  In my terminology, "to know"  something  means  "to gain insight/wisdom which arises only from direct experience".   In my terminology, what you are describing  as "....focus the big knowing into a point...."  is the experience that arises when concentration/focus  is narrowed and  increased in depth.   What you are describing as "knowing" is the  arising  of higher concentration levels and clarity/penetration  into  the object of meditation,  that  is a result of higher concentration.  Mind presents clear light, as by product of the high concentration.  But we should be careful still because  Buddha has described other per-requisites needed to  classify  something  as a jhana.  If our mind finds that all needed characteristics  are present, then there is good probability to come to our conclusions.

5) I don't see why not.  You can jump into any of the jhanas at will, and these states even happen if you know nothing about the jhanas.

This is the most common misconception i find on the internet,  especially among westerners.  The people who grow up in many eastern countries know and hold higher jhanas in reverence.  This is simply because they have directly seen (or heard)  of many monks / yogis  struggling all their life to attain to higher jhanas.   Eastern civilizations know that this is no easy task, whereas  many in the west are misdirected by teachers - who are accepted as teachers simply because they have  spent/studied  in the East, a decade or two - if we go by this standard, literally there are millions of teachers living in the East., who have put in the time and study. 

 

In conclusion - we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we can jump into any jhanas at will.  Look at the conditions posited by Buddha for arisal of  higher jhanas. Yes, it is true that some mental states can happen, even if you know nothing about jhanas - but they are transitory in nature, and they are only glimpses into what is possible - such transitory mental states are NOT sustained at will, because they arose without the "will / effort"  of the mind.

 

......Such is the current understanding and insight of this mind - it is open to corrections & teachings from liberated minds.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Usually my tendency is to resist reply to posts like these, as part of my practice to subdue my ego. But, i reply here out of compassion for all who may wind up reading this thread. So, i want to clarify my prior post here.....

 

First of all, i want to establish that my questions were not posed out of ignorance on this topic, but were posed to dispel differences in our terminology and understanding of words of Buddha, the Supremely Enlightened One.

 

 

Why didn't you say what you meant in the first place, instead of trolling?

As you have said here, orgasms are too disruptive and do not have the base of tranquility/stillness/mindfulness. My first question was merely to point out this fact and is related to my 3rd question, which was posed only to establish that Orgasm is not a good simile to describe jhanas.

 

Only my second question was about "knowing". In my terminology, knowing is NOT a verb/action. In my terminology, "to know" something means "to gain insight/wisdom which arises only from direct experience". In my terminology, what you are describing as "....focus the big knowing into a point...." is the experience that arises when concentration/focus is narrowed and increased in depth. What you are describing as "knowing" is the arising of higher concentration levels and clarity/penetration into the object of meditation, that is a result of higher concentration. Mind presents clear light, as by product of the high concentration. But we should be careful still because Buddha has described other per-requisites needed to classify something as a jhana. If our mind finds that all needed characteristics are present, then there is good probability to come to our conclusions.

 

 

Your terminology is nebulous. I am describing "knowing" as knowing and as knowing that you know. There is a component of self checking, and sustainability. You know, you know that you know and you sustain the knowing to the exclusion of all else. Knowing is a verb.

 

If you want to call that something else, that is up to you.

 

This is the most common misconception i find on the internet, especially among westerners. The people who grow up in many eastern countries know and hold higher jhanas in reverence. This is simply because they have directly seen (or heard) of many monks / yogis struggling all their life to attain to higher jhanas. Eastern civilizations know that this is no easy task, whereas many in the west are misdirected by teachers - who are accepted as teachers simply because they have spent/studied in the East, a decade or two - if we go by this standard, literally there are millions of teachers living in the East., who have put in the time and study.

 

 

I find your statements to be prejudiced and biased. Anyone who uses the term "westerner" has drawn blinders and is trying to prop themselves, cause division, and will not acknowledge that human capacity does not depend on geographical location nor culture. There are bad teachers and poor students in the east too.

 

 

In conclusion - we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we can jump into any jhanas at will. Look at the conditions posited by Buddha for arisal of higher jhanas. Yes, it is true that some mental states can happen, even if you know nothing about jhanas - but they are transitory in nature, and they are only glimpses into what is possible - such transitory mental states are NOT sustained at will, because they arose without the "will / effort" of the mind.

 

......Such is the current understanding and insight of this mind - it is open to corrections & teachings from liberated minds.

Concerning the ability to master the jhanas, Pa Auk Sadayaw states:

You should practise mastery (vasã-bhàva) of the jhànas. There are five kinds of mastery:

1. To advert to the jhàna factors.

2. To enter jhàna whenever desired.

3. To resolve (adhiññhàna) to stay in jhàna for a deter- mined duration, and to keep the resolve.

4. To emerge from jhàna at the determined time.

5. To review the jhàna factors.

 

He said it. And he is no slouch. "To enter jhana whenever desired".

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/know-see.pdf

 

This is from Ajahn Brahm's Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond:

When one has had much experience of jhāna, one can move from jhāna to jhāna using the power of adhiṭṭhāna. In this context, the word adhiṭṭhāna refers to the Buddhist way of programming the mind. At the beginning of one’s meditation, one can program the mind to enter a specified jhāna for a predetermined length of time. Of course, this works only for an accomplished meditator who is familiar with the destination and is well acquainted with the route. It is like setting the automatic pilot shortly after takeoff. Even accomplished meditators, however, must traverse the usual path to reach a specified jhāna. For example, if one programs the mind to enter the third jhāna, then one must pass through the first and second jhānas first, although one may do so quickly.

 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[seekingbuddha]

Pardon me, i did not make my statement clearer......When i said  "In conclusion - we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we can jump into any jhanas at will....."

 

I was referring  (using the word "we"),  to mean  "most of us, ordinary people".   But, of course, for those yogis  and monks who are dedicated, working hard at this all their life (using specific steps Buddha prescribed),  it is possible to go  into any jhana.  When  your  statement  was  "You can jump into any of the jhanas at will",    i thought  you were referring  to  "me & most others in this forum".  That is what i found  disturbing because that could be misconstrued by other readers......  I should have probably kept my mouth shut because i knew this was a touchy subject.  Besides, our ego works in subtle ways, and it is not easy to subdue it  and accept the truth sometimes. Lot of times,  Our perceptions are led by our ego (and attachment to the "I").  And these perceptions (subtly arising from ego base)  lead  us to delusions.

 

Don't  take my post personally - it was merely my thoughts (for the wise readers to consider).  As usual,  perceptions differ and my perceptions  were clearly tagged as such (in my last statement). 

Edited April 5, 2015 by seekingbuddha

[idiot_stimpy]

At first the sensation is localized at the genital region. There is no 'sexual arousal'. It feels like a field or cloud of ecstatic ecstasy. After a while it spreads out into the lower torso and somewhat up the spinal column. .

According the Buddha's instruction (if you want to believe that that is what he taught) you are supposed to kneed it and spread it throuhout the body, like water into dough.

 

I've felt it in the middle of my head then travelling down through my neck. One of the most extreme and pleasurable feelings. It has only happened once, and I only experienced it for 10 seconds or so.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Personally, I think it's very important to consider such things as things we really can attain. Otherwise, what the f*** are you doing?

 

If we think it's only achievable after decades of mountain retreat, we're holding the attainment up as some mystical thing so far away that there's no true motive to try for it - it's just a fairytale. So we block the door to anything happening besides a little massaging the rough edges of samsara (as valuable as even that is for people).

 

We have to have confidence in ourselves that if we practice seriously (i.e. not just pop-psychology or massaging samsara, actual virtue, samadhi, and incisive insight) we can get first jhana, etc. As a thing that actually happens today, in real life.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Question 6.1: How should a meditator who practises mindfulness-of-breathing (ànàpànasati) but cannot see a nimitta check himself physically and mentally, so that he can improve and enter jhàna? In other words, what are the conditions needed to have a nimitta?

 

Answer 6.1: Constant practice is necessary in all types of meditation. In mindfulness-of-breathing you should be mindful of the breath in every bodily posture, and be so with respect. Walking, standing or sitting, take no objects apart from the breath; that is, you should watch only the breath. Try to stop thinking; try to stop talking. If you try continuously in this way, your con- centration will slowly improve. Only deep, strong and powerful concentration can produce a nimitta. Without a nimitta, especially the pañibhàga-nimitta, one cannot attain jhàna, because the ànàpàna jhàna’s object is the ànàpàna pañibhàga-nimitta.

 

Question 6.2: Does the sitting posture affect the ability for beginners to concentrate, and enter jhàna? There are many meditators who sit on a small stool to meditate; can they enter jhàna?

 

Answer 6.2: The sitting posture is best for beginners. But those who have enough pàramãs in mindfulness- of-breathing can enter jhàna in any posture. A skilled meditator can also enter jhàna in any posture. So they can go into jhàna sitting on a stool or chair.

 

The Venerable Sàriputta and the Venerable Subhåti are examples of this. The Venerable Sàriputta was expert in the attainment of cessation (nirodha-samàpatti). When he went for alms in the village, he always entered the attainment of cessation at every house, before accept- ing their offerings. He accepted the offerings only after having emerged from the attainment of cessation. That was his nature.

 

The Venerable Subhåti was expert in loving- kindness meditation. He entered the lovingkindness jhàna also at every house before accepting the offer- ings. After emerging from the lovingkindness jhàna he accepted the offerings. Why did they do this? They wanted the donor to get maximum benefit. They knew that if they did this, immeasurable and superior wholesome kamma would occur in the donor’s thought- process. They had such lovingkindness for the donors to want to do this. Thus they were able to enter an attainment while in the standing posture.

 

Question 6.3: What is the object of the fourth ànàpàna jhàna? If there is no breath in the fourth jhàna, how can there be a nimitta?

 

Answer 6.3: There is still a pañibhàga-nimitta in the fourth ànàpàna jhàna, although there is no in-and-out- breath. That ànàpàna pañibhàga-nimitta arose from the ordinary, natural breath. This is why the object is still the in-and-out-breath (assàsa-passàsa). It is ex- plained in the Pañisambhidàmagga commentary, and

Visuddhimagga sub-commentary.

 

From: Knowing and Seeing

Talks and Questions-and-Answers at a Meditation Retreat in Taiwan by Venerable Pa-Auk Sayadaw

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/know-see.pdf

Edited April 5, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Yo-Yo Jhāna

It sometimes happens that when inexperienced meditators fall into a nimitta, they immediately bounce back to where they began. I call this a “yo-yo jhāna,” after the children’s toy. It isn’t a real jhāna because it doesn’t last long enough, but it is so close. It is the enemy I identified above, excitement, that causes mindfulness to bounce back from jhāna. Such a reaction is quite understandable since the bliss that one experiences when falling into the nimitta is greater joy than one can ever imagine. One may have thought that the best sexual orgasm was something nice, but now one discovers that it is trivial compared to the bliss of these jhānas. Even after a yo-yo jhāna, one often bursts into tears of happiness, crying at the most wonderful experience by far of one’s whole life. So it is understandable that novice meditators first experience yo-yo jhānas. After all, it takes a lot of training to be able to handle such immensely strong bliss. And it takes a lot of wisdom to let go of excitement when one of the great prizes of spiritual life is theirs for the taking.

 

...

The best nimitta, the one most suitable for jhāna, begins by resembling the full moon at midnight in a sky free of clouds. It rises unhurried when the beautiful breath softly disappears. It takes three or four seconds to establish its presence and settle down, remaining still and very beautiful before the mind’s eye. As it remains without effort it grows brighter, more luminous. Soon it appears brighter than the sun at midday, radiating bliss. It becomes by far the most beautiful thing one has ever seen. Its beauty and power will often feel unbearable. One wonders whether one can take so much bliss of such extreme power. But one can. There’s no limit to the bliss one can feel. Then the nimitta explodes, drowning one in even more bliss, or one dives into the center of the radiating ecstasy. If one remains there, it is jhāna.

 

 

From Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond- Ajhan Brahm

 

These quotes address the idea that jhana is better than sex, and that the nimitta is not a simile or a metaphor as the article that Seeker referred to states.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[seekingbuddha]

Few comments,  in order to clarify  my earlier comments....

• "Orgasm" is not a good simile  - indeed, jhanas are better than sex  and different from sexual joy/bliss.
• Jhanas  are simply  "milestones"  on the path,  and are not the path or destination.  Definitely, for me, jhanas are not the motivating  factors  or targets.  There are fruits that I can enjoy, as i walk along the path, without craving for anything that happens (or what i see) along the path.
• I  did not mean to say  that 1st jhana is unattainable. I just mentioned that we should be careful about our conclusions, because ego does play subtly into everything.  In my mind and understanding,  "attainment"  means  that  one can "produce it and sustain it",  to however long needed,  at  his/her  will.   This is a tougher task.  I also think higher jhanas become exponentially harder (to gain and sustain at will), after the 1st one.  But, As i mentioned before, we can certainly see glimpses of all states of mind,  if proper  preparation is done.  Getting a glimpse, for some duration,  is not  "attainment",  IMHO.
• Knowing,  is different (in my terminology/definition) from "experiences of concentration".  Knowing is the result of "direct experience/insight".  Those who know, will know what I imply here.
• Part of my practice is to be careful about when and how I speak. I may have spoken too much here, so pardon my ignorance, if it is present. Liberated minds are  welcome to correct and set me on the right view,  if  I am indeed wrong in these perceptions.

Metta  to you all.  May you experience the tranquility.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Since there is so much debate about proper way to practice right meditation and Jhana, i want to tell a little story that might lead someone closer to the right path, without dwelling into literature, interpretations, something from real experience.

 

Declaimer: I think that talking about your attainment of Jhana was prohibited for simple reason: to avoid monks measuring themselves against each other, to prevent elitism, separation between monks, not because talking about this practice is in some way 'sacred' or to be hidden away or talked only in whispers.

 

Many might know that Buddhas first experience with Jhana was not after dwelling into scrutiny of the 'right' way to practice and not after following some instruction - this state had come to be naturally, when he was a child, careless, joyful, without any special effort put into attaining such state.

 

And i think many people have 'achieved' (got the conditions to line up) Jhanas without even knowing what they are doing, practically on a whim, by chance.

 

One time, some years ago, knowing *nothing* about Buddhism, Jhana or anything really - I finished some work and lied down on my back, thinking 'the work is done, now i will just relax peacefully', not being tired or wanting to go sleep, just with pleasant intention of focusing on joyful awareness, then on a whim some intention arose in me to playfully 'experiment' with my mind and to see if i can get my mind clear of thought. I did not do it with intention to get something, but as playful, joyful experiment, relaxing and being content. I did not succeed to focus on 'non thought' for long, because instances of past hardships surfaced in my mind. So i decided to whenever such memory of past hardship surfaces, i will make peace with it and 'write it off', put it down kindly like old unnecessary thing that is not useful. Many such memories of hardships in this life arose in me and each one i put down, remaining playful, peaceful, like child playing around with mind like a toy, and after putting down each one of those memories of hardship, i then put my attention to silence in-between. Some things come up only once and went away just by recognition 'this instance of hardship' then 'oh, another one, bye', some repeated twice or thrice. I did not put much effort into it, i just waved them off. As time went by, i could find less and less hardships to wave off and the silence in-between them increased. Then a moment came where no more memories of hardship were to be found and unimaginable bliss and joy arose first in body, as waves of bliss and joy then mind was enjoying that unexpected, other worldly bliss and joy, the 'outside' world disappeared - i no longer felt my body, i did not hear any sound, or see 'black' through my ayes, it was like being delivered to other space, dwelling (khem). With disappearance of body bright, round object appeared like a sun radiating stunning mixture of light outwards, it's presence has made my mind completely mute - there was no chance for thought to arise at all, it felt like you have lost the ability to speak and think at all, you only felt that thing, that looked more impressive than god. Then that thing disappeared, and i found myself in some other 'space'- empty, much after what i felt a strong surge of fear arise in me that 'i have died' - because all of the body and it's senses had disappeared, and i only saw this 'nothing', that instinctive fear then threw me out of this state. Note that this is not a 'proper' Jhana, much of the expierence is so called 'nimitta', a door to Jhana. For two weeks after this experience i could lie down, and focus on 'nothing' and get to extremely pleasurable states in time frames of seconds. Obviously i was doing wrong, indulging in sense pleasure, but that's how it was and i knew no better, so i used it. Good thing is that this experience changed direction my life forever to a better one

 

With this i would like to point out the following: if the right intention and the right requisites for Jhana is present, it is just going to happen. Joy and rupture is part of the experience. You need to have the right attitude and mindset before doing this. You can't force the conditions. It does not matter what you are focusing on, as long as it leads you to being one-pointed, so that you are occupied by a single thing. That 'thing' needs to be uplifting, it needs to have some joyful calm associated with it, so that you are calmly and intently focused upon it, instead of forcing it. In this very case that initial joy arose because i was happy that i succeed in my intention of having no thought. Later the joy arose because of seclusion, just like Buddha described.

 

It is not a matter of some weird and complicated methods or some painful training, achieving something. It's a matter of right conditions being there and absence of hindering conditions. How to achieve absence of hindering conditions and arising of right conditions for Jhana? 8 fold path. You use wisdom gained by following Buddhas teaching to cultivate what is useful and to abandon what is not useful and then use that same wisdom in meditation and the other way around. Stop thinking about 'where should i focus - on the nose tip or abdomen or left foot', but know what must be present and cultivate that. Know what is hindering progress and abandon that.

 

Start by 'singleness of occupation' (on breath for example) together with joyful, calm attitude, clear intention. Find it fun, if it's not fun for you, your mind won't incline to letting go.

 

And abandoning of hindrances - you are not drowsy and down, you are there, with good intent, ready for some beneficial training. You are not agitated by outside world, you are calm and content, you are following the 8 fold path rightly therefore you are not angered or wanting. You are not ridden with ill will - you are not trying to find fault, you are set with right intent, you know how to deal with pain and other things, you are following the 8 fold path. Aaand you have no doubt - you know what must be present for access concentration clearly. You are not pondering about 'is this right' 'is this method working'. You know what must be present and you cultivate what must be present. You know the hindrances that must be absent. Know clearly what you are doing and what must be done, what must be cultivated further and what must be abandoned, and remember that you are not somehow magically endowed with joyful calm when you sit down to meditate, if in the course of the day you are indulging in sense pleasure, anger and all kinds of other unwholesome affairs, it just wont happen, what needs to be there wont be there and what hinders meditation will be present.

 

I hope you can de-crypt some useful meaning from this message, my English is what it is

 

From http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=23359#p335280

[Mandrake]

On the topic of Jhana, from Tina Rasmussen, a student of Pa-Auk Sayadaw:

 

http://www.nondualitymagazine.org/nonduality_magazine.4.tinarassmussen.interview.htm

 

 

 

M

[Tibetan_Ice]

On the topic of Jhana, from Tina Rasmussen, a student of Pa-Auk Sayadaw:

 

http://www.nondualitymagazine.org/nonduality_magazine.4.tinarassmussen.interview.htm

 

 

 

M

These are two good books on the Sayadaw practices:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Practicing-Jhanas-Traditional-Concentration-Meditation/dp/159030733X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429312407&sr=8-1&keywords=Practicing+the+jhanas

 

And

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/know-see.pdf

Edited April 17, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Anderson]

Am i allowed to bypass all the four jhanas?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Am i allowed to bypass all the four jhanas?

Why would I even respond to someone who has said this :

 

The fact that you ask these questions is proof that you dont hold and not even know what the supreme view is.

And your talk about mesmerizing experiences , views, lights and bullshit is all an ego trip.

Why don't you find another forum to troll?

[Tibetan_Ice]

I have learned how to refine my breath meditation so that I can hit the first jhana with more consistency.

They key is not only to focus on Knowing the complete cycle of the breath, it is to maintain that Knowing while expanding the line of Knowing from the object of attention back towards the Knower.

 

Think of it this way. There are three points or centers: the object (the cycle of a complete breath), the subject (that which is Knowing), and the act of Knowing (which is the energy of awareness that connects the two (subject and object, or Knower and Known).

 

You can spend days meditating, trying to focus your attention on the breath and not be successful. You can turn your attention around and try to inhabit the Knower without any success. But if you focus on the cycle of the breath and stretch your attention from the mental representation of the breathing cycle back towards the Knower, you hit a point in between where the first jhana occurs. This is not a reversal of the attention, because if you reverse your attention back towards the Knower, you lose the object of knowing ( the mental representation of the breath).

 

In a way, the practice is to learn how to remain in the energy that Knows, that stream of consciousness between the Knower and the Known while maintaining awareness of the object and the subject.

 

Anyway, using this technique, I just spent 35 minutes in sheer rapture, ecstasy, constant orgasmic-like delight to the point where I shut it down because I couldn't take much more. I mean, I started moaning, almost broke out in tears a few times, went in then out then back in and out... the joy of realizing that I have learned how to willfully attain this state is so sweet! And at the same time, there is a part of me that is disgusted with the aspect of using meditation to sustain pleasurable sensations. It seems so base... However, there are more steps ahead and I look forward to dropping the rapture and gaining more peace and tranquility as I progress up the jhanic ladder.

 

Edited June 6, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[seekingbuddha]

There is going to be  ton  of  teenagers now interested in this thread,  because  the  idea of  35 minutes of  sustained  orgasm  will bring tears to any  teen.   They usually  have orgasms  lasting  in the order of  seconds.  This  can be practiced now as a better alternative, instead of wasting  energy  on new girlfriends.  Would you care to write an article  explaining your  "Path to Enlightenment" or  "Path to Ecstasy"  or something like that ?  This will save the ton of emails that you will soon get from  pleasure seeking teens on the Net.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Hypothetically, teenagers interested in jhana wouldn't be a bad thing. Any who really run with it would end up more balanced and healthy people, and some of those would get interested in awakening.

 

In the suttas there is a story of a man who was going to leave the path. The Buddha told him that if he practised hard, in his next life he would have the *company* of hot female devas. So he buckled down and later achieved arhatship... Losing interest in the devas.

 

Buddha may not have described jhana with the word 'orgasm', but he sure went out of his way to make it sound pleasant. 'Suffusing the body with rapture and joy born of withdrawal like cool water suffusing a sponge', and all that. Is this pleasure seeking?

[Tibetan_Ice]

There is going to be ton of teenagers now interested in this thread, because the idea of 35 minutes of sustained orgasm will bring tears to any teen. They usually have orgasms lasting in the order of seconds. This can be practiced now as a better alternative, instead of wasting energy on new girlfriends. Would you care to write an article explaining your "Path to Enlightenment" or "Path to Ecstasy" or something like that ? This will save the ton of emails that you will soon get from pleasure seeking teens on the Net.

You can't get venereal disease or pregnant from the jhanas, can you?

I'm not selling pleasure here, I'm talking about how to refine technique.

Do you practice the jhanas?

[Anderson]

Refining the existing techniques and creating more techniques is the way to go.

[Tibetan_Ice]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/index.html

 

And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that... leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.