The first jhana

[Tibetan_Ice]

Well, I just spent 45 minutes in the first jhana, in a state of rapture and joy. Unbelievable! I think this is the beautiful breath that Ajahn Brahm talks about. Focusing on the sensation of the breath as it passes by the nostrils. Remaining with the feeling of the sensation. Trying to feel if the breath is hot or cold. Sustaining the attention... It felt so good!

 

What I noticed is that you can still think while this is going on. And Ajahn is right, it is easier to remain with the breath because of the pleasurable sensation. The mind doesn't want to wander.

 

The most pleasure seemed to be at the in-breath at first, but later as the session developed, the out breath was becoming just as ecstatic.

 

Some times I distracted myself on purpose because the sensations were becoming too strong. Not just rapture, but waves of tingles too, probably more from the joy.

 

The thing I also noticed is that the flow through the nostrils was evenly balanced, that is, both nostrils and sinus cavities were clear and open. I think that that might make a difference.

 

The other thing I noticed is that my arms and lower torso were dissociating from the body. A kind of numb, etheric sensation was spreading and growing.

 

The white light nimitta appeared but I just ignored it. I spent the meditation just drinking up the rapture.

 

The 45 minute session ended way too soon.

[ChiForce]

Well, I just spent 45 minutes in the first jhana, in a state of rapture and joy. Unbelievable! I think this is the beautiful breath that Ajahn Brahm talks about. Focusing on the sensation of the breath as it passes by the nostrils. Remaining with the feeling of the sensation. Trying to feel if the breath is hot or cold. Sustaining the attention... It felt so good!

 

What I noticed is that you can still think while this is going on. And Ajahn is right, it is easier to remain with the breath because of the pleasurable sensation. The mind doesn't want to wander.

 

The most pleasure seemed to be at the in-breath at first, but later as the session developed, the out breath was becoming just as ecstatic.

 

Some times I distracted myself on purpose because the sensations were becoming too strong. Not just rapture, but waves of tingles too, probably more from the joy.

 

The thing I also noticed is that the flow through the nostrils was evenly balanced, that is, both nostrils and sinus cavities were clear and open. I think that that might make a difference.

 

The other thing I noticed is that my arms and lower torso were dissociating from the body. A kind of numb, etheric sensation was spreading and growing.

 

The white light nimitta appeared but I just ignored it. I spent the meditation just drinking up the rapture.

 

The 45 minute session ended way too soon.

I am not sure if I should comment on it but here it goes.....yeah, I "felt" that 20 years ago when I first experienced my first Kundalini energy rising experience.  It lasted for more than 15 days.  Back then, I would even deliberately try to recreate the experience in order to clear my stuffy nose!!!!  Back then, I didn't know anything yoga.  All I needed to do is to meditate and bang...it happened.  I used to have a bad case of stuffy nose while sleeping.  It was like breathing through a straw.  LOL  Yeah, as I remember, it was like my ears turned inside and listening to my own breaths.  I could even hear my own heart beating too.

 

Funny that....now, in my Samadhi and Jhana experiences, I don't get that anymore (hearing my own heart beating and hearing my own breaths).  Instead, I just hear my upper chakras vibrating even more intensely.  The Nimitta light is still there but I don't get that excited with it anymore.

 

So be prepared that the experience would wane down a bit....     

[Tibetan_Ice]

I am not sure if I should comment on it but here it goes.....yeah, I "felt" that 20 years ago when I first experienced my first Kundalini energy rising experience. It lasted for more than 15 days. Back then, I would even deliberately try to recreate the experience in order to clear my stuffy nose!!!! Back then, I didn't know anything yoga. All I needed to do is to meditate and bang...it happened. I used to have a bad case of stuffy nose while sleeping. It was like breathing through a straw. LOL Yeah, as I remember, it was like my ears turned inside and listening to my own breaths. I could even hear my own heart beating too.

 

Funny that....now, in my Samadhi and Jhana experiences, I don't get that anymore (hearing my own heart beating and hearing my own breaths). Instead, I just hear my upper chakras vibrating even more intensely. The Nimitta light is still there but I don't get that excited with it anymore.

 

So be prepared that the experience would wane down a bit....

Hi ChiForce,

 

My kundalini activated years ago too. I have done many practices and have had many experiences. I am currently trying to master the jhanas. What I am finding is that the kundalini energy appears to be very similar to jhanic rapture, but that in the first jhanic state, the rapture is smoother, not as intense as kundalini and does not cause any form of overload. With kundalini, I was often left in a state where my face and hands were burning, and I had other symptoms like perineum ache and the overall sensation that I had been electrocuted. So far, the first jhanic rapture is much sweeter, easier on the system and much more delightful. And I really like aspect that I can shut it down, it stops at the end of the session rather than continues on and on and on.

 

I was wondering.. What method of meditation do you use for meditation? Breath meditation? Do you fix the attention at the sensation at the nostrils or are you more like Ajahn Brahms' method of just focusing on where the mind knows the cycle of the breath? There are so many variations of techniques that I was wondering which one you use.

 

Also, it doesn't sound like you penetrate the nimitta, or want to? Is that correct?

 

Recently I have penetrated the nimitta twice, but the result does not last long. Then, yesterday I was reading in the Abhidamma, that it is not supposed to last long, after penetrating the nimitta, or perhaps I am not reading this properly.

 

When the stream of consciousness is arrested, there arises the Mind-door consciousness taking for its object the Pati- bhàga Nimitta. This is followed by the Javana process which, as the case may be, starts with either Parikamma or Upacàra. Parikamma is the preliminary or initial thought- moment. Upacàra means proximate, because it is close to the Appanà Samàdhi. It is at the Anuloma or “adaptation” thought-moment that the mind qualifies itself for the final Appanà. It is so called because it arises in conformity with Appanà. This is followed by Gotrabhå, the thought-moment that transcends the Kàma-plane. Gotrabhå means that which subdues (bhå) the Kàma-lineage (Gotra). All the thought-moments of this Javana process up to the Gotrabhå moment are Kàmàvacara thoughts. Immediately after this transitional stage of Gotrabhå there arises only for a duration of one moment the Appanà thought-moment that leads to ecstatic concentration. This consciousness belongs to the Råpa-plane, and is termed the First Råpa Jhàna. In the case of an Arahant it is a Kriyà citta, otherwise it is a Kusala.

 

This consciousness lasts for one thought-moment and then subsides into the Bhavaïga state.

 

The aspirant continues his concentration and develops in the foregoing manner the second, third, fourth, and fifth Jhànas.

 

 

So it would seem that "the thought consciousness lasts for one thought moment" means that it does not last very long, or perhaps it lasts as long as you sustain it? I'm trying to figure out how one can remain in ecstatic concentration as seems to be the experience for such a long time when the book says it lasts for one thought moment.

 

My current understanding is that the ecstatic concentration is prolonged because the mind has been fixed at a specific level of concentration. Therefore, because there are other jhanic factors, when you penetrate the nimitta, you break through to the higher jhanas. I'm tying in the notion here that each jhana is a subtler form of consciousness, and to get to the subtler levels, you have to break through or drop the coarser levels.

 

Have you hit the second jhana? Sorry for all the questions.

 

[ChiForce]

Hi ChiForce,

 

My kundalini activated years ago too. I have done many practices and have had many experiences. I am currently trying to master the jhanas. What I am finding is that the kundalini energy appears to be very similar to jhanic rapture, but that in the first jhanic state, the rapture is smoother, not as intense as kundalini and does not cause any form of overload. With kundalini, I was often left in a state where my face and hands were burning, and I had other symptoms like perineum ache and the overall sensation that I had been electrocuted. So far, the first jhanic rapture is much sweeter, easier on the system and much more delightful. And I really like aspect that I can shut it down, it stops at the end of the session rather than continues on and on and on.

 

I was wondering.. What method of meditation do you use for meditation? Breath meditation? Do you fix the attention at the sensation at the nostrils or are you more like Ajahn Brahms' method of just focusing on where the mind knows the cycle of the breath? There are so many variations of techniques that I was wondering which one you use.

 

Also, it doesn't sound like you penetrate the nimitta, or want to? Is that correct?

 

Recently I have penetrated the nimitta twice, but the result does not last long. Then, yesterday I was reading in the Abhidamma, that it is not supposed to last long, after penetrating the nimitta, or perhaps I am not reading this properly.

 

So it would seem that "the thought consciousness lasts for one thought moment" means that it does not last very long, or perhaps it lasts as long as you sustain it? I'm trying to figure out how one can remain in ecstatic concentration as seems to be the experience for such a long time when the book says it lasts for one thought moment.

 

My current understanding is that the ecstatic concentration is prolonged because the mind has been fixed at a specific level of concentration. Therefore, because there are other jhanic factors, when you penetrate the nimitta, you break through to the higher jhanas. I'm tying in the notion here that each jhana is a subtler form of consciousness, and to get to the subtler levels, you have to break through or drop the coarser levels.

 

Have you hit the second jhana? Sorry for all the questions.

 

Early on in my path, I didn't follow any specific path because the kundalini energy rising experience was so spontaneous.  However, this spontaneity didn't last for more than 30 days.  Unfortunately, my mind was preoccupied with the daily issues of, well, life.  I actually spent more than a decade of not caring about my experience and just trying to live a normal life while trying to resolve my past life karma.  About 5 years ago, I went back to this experience and to try to understand the purpose of my life. 

 

I then have to study and to read up on various means to meditate.  I was a newbie totally.  The more I read and the more I can infer what I read with my own personal experiences, I gained a lot of insights and the understanding of the entire Taoist and Buddhist cosmology.  However, I didn't get attracted to the Hindu Yoga because I dislike all the deity connotation associated with Hindu Yoga.  I am Chinese and so I would prefer something more practical and straight forward.  Hehehehe... 

 

At first, I simply focused on chakras meditation.  Just meditating on my 7 chakras, from bottom up.  I could tell things were happening because I was getting strange bodily sensations at the lower chakras at night.  During my meditation, I would see faces of animals.  Every time I saw these faces, I freaked out a bit.  On the hearing side, I would hear a very low frequency vibration throughout the entire day.  The sound of the vibration sounds like a car engine running while you are inside the car driving.  Eventually, I worked my way up to my crown chakras in few months.  Yes, getting different bodily sensations as well, with my chest, heart, and my head.  The chakras frequency was getting higher now and multiple.  Dreams were becoming more lucid. 

 

Right now, I used the skeleton meditation briefly as means to calm my mind.  I then focus either on my LDT or the heart chakras.  At the beginning I focused on my breath.  Since I couldn't even hear myself breathing now because the sound of the chakras vibration is so strong, I don't count breaths anymore.  I just sit in a half lotus position.  Close my eyes and letting myself sinking in and to become overwhelmed by the sound of silence, the sound of my own chakras vibrating.   

 

If I do this at night before bed, nimitta light would not arise during the meditation. Sometimes it does but the intensity is very weak.  Now, during sleep and in dreams and early morning, however, the nimitta light would shine extremely brightly...usually within 20 minutes in my morning meditation.  In dreams, the nimitta light tends to manifest as "light and dream imagery" as well.  I can't explain it.  What I means is that I would be dreaming something and in the dream I would see the nimitta light.  Then, I would become aware of this light and I would find myself awakened from my sleep...while this nimitta light is still shinning brightly.  Sometimes, I would go back to sleep while concentrating on this light and this light would manifest as another dreams.  So, in a way, the nimitta light serves as a bridge between my waking reality and the my dreaming reality.  Now, once I woke up in the morning, almost 99% of the time I can meditate and the nimitta light would appear within 20 minutes.

 

What Jhana level I am at?  Can't say since I was never told by a qualified person of what Jhana level I am at.    I know it is not the first because my Samadhi and Jhana experience years ago is so much different than now.  I am still getting all the signs but the sensations aren't that overwhelming.  And I am not losing myself in these bliss sensations.              

Edited July 4, 2015 by ChiForce

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi ChiForce

Thank you for taking the time to explain that.

I too see a white star/sun many times during the night and sometimes through the day. If I am really relaxed and my mind is settled I usually see a whitish sun near the third eye, behind the eyebrows Sometimes it seems to light up the whole inside of my head. I didn't think that that was a nimitta because I wasn't formally performing breath meditation at the times, but I guess you could call it a nimitta in a generic kind of way, since "nimitta" means "sign". Only trouble is, when I do gazing practice, sometimes I will see a "moon" on the left and sometimes I see a "sun" on the right.

 

Anyway, thanks for sharing.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Well that was a short 3 months...

 

I hit first jhana again this afternoon.

 

My morning meditation consisted of moving my attention around the room, with eyes closed, visualizing or seeing internally with the third eye, the details in the room, then outside the house, the whole city, then the universe. Slowly working on expanding my "knowing" and practising manipulating my attention. It is such a wonderful way to enter the natural state and let go of the tension.

 

During the afternoon meditation it was very easy to trace the complete cycle of a breath. Also, I have been reviewing Ajahn Brahm's "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond", picking up pointers. A very interesting one is this:

 

In every stage of this meditation you cannot go wrong when you put peace or kindness in the space between you and whatever you are aware of.

 

So, I went back to loving my breath as I watched it. Within three breaths the nimitta was visible directly behind the counterpart sign. It resembled a little star. Within seconds, rapture appeared that lasted and lasted until I shut it down at the end of the session.

 

Once I succeed at nailing down the technique and master the first jhana, I look forward to the higher jhanas where I can leave the rapture at will..

 

[Ichigo]

Well that was a short 3 months...

 

I hit first jhana again this afternoon.

 

My morning meditation consisted of moving my attention around the room, with eyes closed, visualizing or seeing internally with the third eye, the details in the room, then outside the house, the whole city, then the universe. Slowly working on expanding my "knowing" and practising manipulating my attention. It is such a wonderful way to enter the natural state and let go of the tension.

 

During the afternoon meditation it was very easy to trace the complete cycle of a breath. Also, I have been reviewing Ajahn Brahm's "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond", picking up pointers. A very interesting one is this:

 

 

So, I went back to loving my breath as I watched it. Within three breaths the nimitta was visible directly behind the counterpart sign. It resembled a little star. Within seconds, rapture appeared that lasted and lasted until I shut it down at the end of the session.

 

Once I succeed at nailing down the technique and master the first jhana, I look forward to the higher jhanas where I can leave the rapture at will..

 

Hey

 

Like always thanks for sharing your amazingly experiences!

 

So what is your exact method right now (where you follow the breaths as well and in what detailed way) to have such long blisful effects?

 

In every meditation session I get to the stage where blisful or rapture energy starts to arise in my physical body (but not strong enough for it not to fade away when I draw my attention to it), but I feel like I can't anymore make it strong enough (even though I return to the breath for the blisful energy in the body to become stronger so when I abadon the breath I actually get a powerful absorbtion for the energy to expand my entire being like a blanket...)

Long time ago in every meditation session in a matter of minutes I could become absorbed in those waves of bliss, perhaps not for a long time, but long enough for me to consider it was a succsessful session...

 

Nowdays this doesn't happen as much or barely, which basicaly means in my opinion that I am doing something not exactly right or insufiecient, even when I feel my concentration is really almost the whole time with or on the breath and less then 5 distraction thoughts a session even though whenever something else gets my attention within a split second I return to the breath... there must be something I am doing not %100 correctly... one can meditate for 100 years and not get sucked in the jhanas, so I see it more as having a correct way or method to actually get them...

 

What's your secret?

 

PS: oh yeah, I basicaly at around the nose or nostrils staying on the sensations of the breath, or just the feeling at the nostrils of the feeling pressure of the IN-breath and OUT-breath mechanism itself, which if there is air felt around there my attention will just be drawn to that as well,

Edited July 13, 2015 by Ichigo

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Ichigo,

I think there are a few secrets, the first is to lead a low-keyed non stressful life, learn to detach and don't take yourself too seriously.

The second secret is this. Draw a distinction between watching the breath and watching yourself watch the breath. What I mean is that when you watch the breath, you watch it so intently that your mind forms a mental image of the breath. That is called the counterpoint sign. Then, you meditate or focus on that.

 

When you trace every aspect of the breath, the start of the inhale, the smooth in breath, the stopping of the in breath, the pause at the top of the in breath, then the start of the exhale, the smoothness and flow of each second of the out breath, the pause at the bottom, the wait for the next in breath, the mind forms a mental construction of the many different aspects and kind of joins them altogether. It is like the mind visualizes a cartoon image of the motion, the rise and fall, the pausing, the repeating.

 

It is like the rise and fall of a cork bobbing in the ocean.

 

Focus on that. Focus on the mental image your mind makes of the rise and fall. This picture that the mind makes is closer to the center of the head, where it "knows" the bobbing of the cork. Sustain the awareness. Put in some effort. Then, love it. The love that you send it will connect your heart to the breathing and enhance the interest and clarity of the mental representation of the breathing cycle that the mind has created. The love keeps you more interested, making it easier to focus and sustain your focus. There is a huge pool of awareness surrounding the heart. Wherever you direct your love, joy, happiness, this pool extends into it. This pool is clear, sparkly, super aware, blissful and silent. Learn to direct it through "loving" your breath.

 

The heart is always looking at the breath. It needs to correspond its pumping with the differing cycles of the breath. If you breath fast, it needs to pump faster. If the breathing slows down, it may need to pump less. The heart tells the breath when to speed up and slow down. There is a natural connection between the heart and the breathing. You are in essence tying into that link.. It is natural.

 

Then, the mental background in your mind's eye gets brighter, the mental image (counterpoint sign) gets clearer, crisper and more vivid and all of a sudden it becomes so real that it looks like a solid object. To me it looks like a cloud of white light. While this is going on, you also see a star, or a white sun, or a bright light in he background. Just ignore it and keep focusing on the counterpoint sign. At some point, the star will become so bright that it merges with the counterpoint sign. At that point, the rapture begins..

 

Does that help? Good luck! Please let us know how it goes.

 

Edited July 13, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Ichigo]

Thanks Tibetan!

 

Well I returned to following the breath somewhere inside the nostrils at a specific point like from the very beginning, I realize other places don't work good enough for me, with the sensation place I focus on, everything happens quite with a boom, like after a while following the breath, a very intense light appears and rapture, and automaticaly my attention just moves to it in a flick... I am absorbed like a blanket in that energy, and enjoy the ride of being in that blisful state for a few seconds or minutes if possible until it fades away,

Edited July 17, 2015 by Ichigo

[Tibetan_Ice]

Another successful meditation with hitting the first jhana today!

 

I had been trying the technique of focusing on the feeling of the air as it passes by the nostrils and that technique brought three episodes of the first jhana. But it is very hard for me to reach that state with that technique somehow. Not only does it require allot of effort, but you have to sort of shift your awareness out of the mind and use the part of your awareness that is more akin to bodily feeling or sensation.

 

Then, when the jhana did start, it was caused by a continuous sensation of the air passing into the right nostril. After having a few successful meditations using that technique, it was just about impossible to replicate the experience.

 

I was pretty close to giving up because it was so hard.

 

During the meditations where I was not successful I would reach the state where the body falls away, where that wave comes and passes over you followed by the state where the visions start occurring. It is very hard to focus on sensations at the nostrils while you are being bombarded by visions and the body has dropped away.

 

I had stopped breath meditation for a few weeks and instead had been pursuing self inquiry, turning the awareness back onto itself and focusing on the "I". That is a wonderful technique... I saw lots of lights and other phenomenon but when I get to a certain location near the center of the multicolored light, I get an electric shock which jars me out of the state that I'm in. My head jerks sideways a few times and I kind of jump. I don't know what that is...

 

Anyway, today I decided to go back to "knowing the breath" more in the style of Ajahn Brahm. I made a resolve to put more attention on "that which knows" rather than "that which feels", or "that which does".

 

I reiterated that "knowing" is effortless and does not require motion or effort. This is not a technique of tracing the breathing up and down by pointing your attention at it. It is more like receding further back into the center of the head, close to the medulla where you are closer to "that which knows". That center knows when you are breathing in, knows when the in-breath stops, knows when exhalation is occurring, knows when the exhalation has stopped.

 

It knows this without moving.

 

So, centered in this location, I started to try to sustain a "knowing" of one complete breath cycle. At first, I was aware of the grosser parts of the breath cycle... I am breathing in, I am pausing for a split second, I am breathing out, I have paused a bit. Keeping aware of those four points or parts wasn't so hard. Some thoughts were coming in to distract me but I did not concern myself with them. I pointed my awareness back at the four grosser parts of the breathing cycle and continued to attempt to sustain the "knowing". I recalled that Ajahn Brahm says that you must sustain a continual "knowing" of the breathing cycles for at least an hour without distraction.

 

Actually, I have realized that you can still think or have thoughts in the first jhana, except, the degree of ecstasy or bliss is inversely proportional to how much energy or attention you give to the thoughts. I have found that I can have a few thoughts without the flow stopping, if I quickly go back to the focusing on the breath cycle.

 

As the meditation progressed, I strove to become aware of more and more of the details in one cycle of breath. What I was doing is trying to be aware, not only of the in/pause/out/pause, but being aware of each parsec of the in-breath, and the out-breath. After a few minutes, I succeeded in tracing, or being aware of a complete inhale along with the three other parts. Then, I succeeded in knowing a complete breath cycle and thought to myself that it was just like being in the "now". I kept at it. I wanted to know each minute detail of every aspect of one breath cycle.

 

Then the ecstasy started but quickly went away because it caught me by surprise. I continued. I was thinking "ok, this time being aware or "knowing" a complete in-breath started the ecstasy. However, I continued trying to focus on as many details as possible in one cycle of breathing. I started noticing a bright white light in the background. Yup, the nimitta was starting up. Then the ecstasy occurred again followed by a big JOY! I was going to be successful! I continued on and sure enough, the ecstatic sensations got stronger.

 

I thought I'd mention here that the sensations start in the root chakra. I'm starting to think that first jhana is somehow related to kundalini. I'll have to think about that one...

 

I started to think that this method was better than the "sensing the breath at the nostrils method". The thoughts detracted from the ecstasy but as soon as I put more attention back into the "knowing of the breath cycle", the ecstasy got stronger again.

 

I spent about 30 minutes in this state. It had taken me a while to get to it, but it was worth it. I'm feeling confident that I have the right procedure now.

 

I have realized that the fewer thoughts you have, the stronger the ecstasy. However, when the ecstatic flow is strong, you can think a few more thoughts and it doesn't seem to affect the flow or intensity any more. And, the ecstatic flow continues long after the meditation session has ended.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thanks Tibetan!

 

Well I returned to following the breath somewhere inside the nostrils at a specific point like from the very beginning, I realize other places don't work good enough for me, with the sensation place I focus on, everything happens quite with a boom, like after a while following the breath, a very intense light appears and rapture, and automaticaly my attention just moves to it in a flick... I am absorbed like a blanket in that energy, and enjoy the ride of being in that blisful state for a few seconds or minutes if possible until it fades away,

Have you ever tried, instead of letting your attention move to the nimitta right away, trying to keep your focus in the breath?

[MooNiNite]

Is like having an orgasm that lasts and lasts and lasts!

 

Once you understand the difference between awareness and knowing, and learn how to stabilize and concentrate the knowing into a focused beam, fixed on one spot, you will see what I mean.

 

Its not all technique and learning. It has to do with outer life too. 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Its not all technique and learning. It has to do with outer life too.

This particular topic is about the first jhana.

If you'd like to read about mindfulness, the right view and dharma, try some other threads.

 

[MooNiNite]

This particular topic is about the first jhana.

If you'd like to read about mindfulness, the right view and dharma, try some other threads.

 

 

Are you claiming the jhana is separate from mindfulness?

 

because I believe they are one and the same. 

[MooNiNite]

Not sure how you could reach a jhana without cultivating mindfulness. Awareness is both the path and the destination. 

 

The word Jhana is defined as "meditation" or "a cultivated state of mind." 

Edited August 14, 2015 by MooNiNite

[Tibetan_Ice]

Are you claiming the jhana is separate from mindfulness?

 

because I believe they are one and the same.

I made no such claim. If mindfulness was "one and the same" as you have stated, then there wouldn't be two different words for the same concept.

The method of arriving at a jhana does include some form of mindfulness but other components as well, such as directed attention, sustained attention, the absence or diminishment of the hinderences. Most books on jhana represent the acievement of jhana as a coming together of the jhanic factors. For example, when Buddha mentions "born from seclusion", seclusion is not a form of mindfulness; it is a jhanic factor.

You can practice mindfulness while eating, drinking, driving, etc but it is not going to produce jhana.

I have read that walking meditation might bring you to the first jhana, but nothing beyond that.

So yes, one has to be careful about sweeping statements like "mindfulness is jhana" and try to examine the concepts with a little more detail.

 

Here is some more clarification from "Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English" - Bhante Henepola Gunaratana

RIGHT CONCENTRATION AND WRONG CONCENTRATION

 

Right concentration is awake and aware. Mindfulness and clear comprehension are its hallmarks. The mind may be paying no attention to the exterior world, but it knows exactly what is going on within the state of jhana. It recognizes the wholesome mental factors of jhana, without processing them in words, and it knows what they are and what they mean. Mindfulness is the precursor to right concentration. Jhana comes about through restraint of the hindrances. You must have mindfulness to recognize that a hindrance is present in the mind so that you can overcome it. Mindfulness before jhana carries over into mindfulness within jhana. In addition to mindfulness, clarity, purity, faith, attention, and equanimity must be present in right concentration.

 

[Anderson]

My advice is to look inside the nostrils.

 

If you dont know how to do this ask Jax.

[MooNiNite]

I made no such claim. If mindfulness was "one and the same" as you have stated, then there wouldn't be two different words for the same concept.

The method of arriving at a jhana does include some form of mindfulness but other components as well, such as directed attention, sustained attention, the absence or diminishment of the hinderences. Most books on jhana represent the acievement of jhana as a coming together of the jhanic factors. For example, when Buddha mentions "born from seclusion", seclusion is not a form of mindfulness; it is a jhanic factor.

You can practice mindfulness while eating, drinking, driving, etc but it is not going to produce jhana.

I have read that walking meditation might bring you to the first jhana, but nothing beyond that.

So yes, one has to be careful about sweeping statements like "mindfulness is jhana" and try to examine the concepts with a little more detail.

 

Here is some more clarification from "Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English" - Bhante Henepola Gunaratana

 

I believe mindfulness meditation alone will take one way past the first jhana. 

[Tibetan_Ice]

I believe mindfulness meditation alone will take one way past the first jhana.

Has that been your experience?

[ChiForce]

Are you claiming the jhana is separate from mindfulness?

 

because I believe they are one and the same. 

They aren't.....  Jhana is a samadhi state you have arrived at.  Mindfulness is the means in which you tried to experience a Samadhi in a Jhana state.  Mindfulness means not grasping but not grasping thoughts do not produce or to allow you to experience a Samadhi, or jhana.  Speaking from my own experiences, my various jhana experiences or samadhi experiences happened during my dreams and from dreams transitioning to my waking experience.  In another words, the experience would start out in my dreams first and then following it through in my waking consciousness.  I do experience a mild sense of bliss in the morning usually when I meditate.  However, I never feel that my discriminating mind would disappear and being taken hold by some transcendent mind state.  I still do experience the nimitta light and feeling the warm chi running through my body.

 

For Tibetan_Ice, you are trying too hard.  Let go.  Forget about the first jhana because one shouldn't be able to distinguish which jhana you are supposed to be in...because you aren't supposed to grasp the experience.  You can't because the feeling is addicting...hehehehe....          

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I believe mindfulness meditation alone will take one way past the first jhana.

'Mindfulness meditation' is a pretty slippery term IMHO. Mindfulness is simply one mental faculty which different forms of meditation combine with different things. In vipashyana, it's combined with an investigative quality, applied to whatever comes up. In shamatha, it's combined with concentration, applied to just one object. The kind of mindfulness practice used in psychotherapy - just being aware of everything without judgement - doesn't usually go beyond helping people with anxiety, etc.

[Ichigo]

Have you ever tried, instead of letting your attention move to the nimitta right away, trying to keep your focus in the breath?

Yeah, sometimes when I am able I keep focusing on the breath until the very bright light in some kind of way emerges with the breath and automatically I am pushed/absorbed into the bliss and from there it keeps growing on my entire being and I am enjoying the blissful bath ride for a few seconds, after that I feel completely blissed out...

 

but many times I also don't succeed, I have found a small spot at the nostril, near one of the nostril (whichever one is more open at that time) let's say the right nostril, then at the right nostril the little spot near the nostrils bridge at the bottom, I follow the breath sensation there, more or less on the rims of that location, I try to keep it as smalll as possible...

 

Usually after a few minutes  I feel rapture arising and the whole background and stuff brightning up with light, while keeping attention on the breath sensation, it starts to get so blissful that I am getting distracted to pay any further attention on the breath, of course I can shift my attention to the bliss, but it's not always stable enough to grow any further. of course that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the well being feeling and some other small pleasurable feelings inside the body that comes out as a result of that, and just wanting to lay down there with that

 

btw, what do you think about the noting technique that is being used a lot around the dharmaoverground forum and Kenneth to reach stream entry and the paths beyond? do you practice it? why or why not? months ago when the first time I did that practice and noted everything so fast (sensations, thoughts, hearing, seeing, blabalbal) my entire being was simply building up with very intense vibrations, like I am some kind of tornado... after that I kept practicing it, but not having many experiences and wasn't sure if it's something I want to continue practicing I gave up... until recently I though I should going with it again and experience my self what Daniel Ingram was talking about all this time

[Kubba]

Pardon me, i did not make my statement clearer......When i said  "In conclusion - we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we can jump into any jhanas at will....."

 

I was referring  (using the word "we"),  to mean  "most of us, ordinary people".   But, of course, for those yogis  and monks who are dedicated, working hard at this all their life (using specific steps Buddha prescribed),  it is possible to go  into any jhana.  When  your  statement  was  "You can jump into any of the jhanas at will",    i thought  you were referring  to  "me & most others in this forum".  That is what i found  disturbing because that could be misconstrued by other readers......  I should have probably kept my mouth shut because i knew this was a touchy subject.  Besides, our ego works in subtle ways, and it is not easy to subdue it  and accept the truth sometimes. Lot of times,  Our perceptions are led by our ego (and attachment to the "I").  And these perceptions (subtly arising from ego base)  lead  us to delusions.

 

Don't  take my post personally - it was merely my thoughts (for the wise readers to consider).  As usual,  perceptions differ and my perceptions  were clearly tagged as such (in my last statement). 

I don't think that they can jump into any jhana they wish. They can jump immedietely into the highest that they are able too reach....

 

By the way, this sensation above the upper lip is one of the first sensation human being preceive continously since birth, you always breath so you always stimulate this place with air through your nostrils. Then the primarry sense of smell follows with is straight doorway to the searching, wandering mind. But first you smell yourself, your mother, you search for objects that are needed through this sense and the first mind is created....

[Seeker of Wisdom]

[...]what do you think about the noting technique that is being used a lot around the dharmaoverground forum and Kenneth to reach stream entry and the paths beyond? do you practice it? why or why not? months ago when the first time I did that practice and noted everything so fast (sensations, thoughts, hearing, seeing, blabalbal) my entire being was simply building up with very intense vibrations, like I am some kind of tornado... after that I kept practicing it, but not having many experiences and wasn't sure if it's something I want to continue practicing I gave up... [...]

I've been practising noting for a few months. My experience so far hasn't been dramatic like yours, but there's been progress in seeing stuff as not me/mine and deconstructing experience into smaller briefer sensations. I think it's an excellent practice. Noting helps objectify stuff and keeps you honest about whether you're actually doing it or not. It's just a tool for paying attention to what's going on and seeing how it really is, which is essentially how awakening happens.

 

Perhaps you crossed A&P, then stalled in dissolution? Your description sounds like that: amazing vibrations -> boring couch potato stage. Not sure where I am on the maps myself, because I've had no really obvious landmarks.

 

I interviewed Ingram here: http://thedaobums.com/topic/38892-tdbs-interview-with-daniel-ingram/

[Tibetan_Ice]

Yeah, sometimes when I am able I keep focusing on the breath until the very bright light in some kind of way emerges with the breath and automatically I am pushed/absorbed into the bliss and from there it keeps growing on my entire being and I am enjoying the blissful bath ride for a few seconds, after that I feel completely blissed out...

 

but many times I also don't succeed, I have found a small spot at the nostril, near one of the nostril (whichever one is more open at that time) let's say the right nostril, then at the right nostril the little spot near the nostrils bridge at the bottom, I follow the breath sensation there, more or less on the rims of that location, I try to keep it as smalll as possible...

 

Usually after a few minutes I feel rapture arising and the whole background and stuff brightning up with light, while keeping attention on the breath sensation, it starts to get so blissful that I am getting distracted to pay any further attention on the breath, of course I can shift my attention to the bliss, but it's not always stable enough to grow any further. of course that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the well being feeling and some other small pleasurable feelings inside the body that comes out as a result of that, and just wanting to lay down there with that

 

 

What you describe is what I've noticed too... The background lightening up, and then when the bliss (ecstasy) starts, my attention is drawn to it automatically. But if you focus on the bliss directly, it goes away. So I go back to the breath.. And yes, it seems that the smaller the spot of concentration the better.

Sounds like you have succeeded in attaining at least the first jhana:). Congratulations!

 

 

btw, what do you think about the noting technique that is being used a lot around the dharmaoverground forum and Kenneth to reach stream entry and the paths beyond? do you practice it? why or why not? months ago when the first time I did that practice and noted everything so fast (sensations, thoughts, hearing, seeing, blabalbal) my entire being was simply building up with very intense vibrations, like I am some kind of tornado... after that I kept practicing it, but not having many experiences and wasn't sure if it's something I want to continue practicing I gave up... until recently I though I should going with it again and experience my self what Daniel Ingram was talking about all this time

Years ago when I first learned about Kenneth Folk and Daniel Ingram (and his ebook, which I read) I didn't know what to think. I thought that noting practice wouldn't really produce anything because the act of noting is stirring up the winds, keeping the mind active (not still). To me, this was counter to the sustained concentration that Patanjali's limbs of yoga talks about. Noting was similar to mantra repetition, TM style. How are you going to still the mind when you are constantly mentally reciting a mantra? Isn't the act of intending a new iteration of the mantra, activating it, releasing it etc all mental processes? And, like it says in "Mindfulness in Plain English" you are even supposed to keep the background (the subject or watcher still). So somehow I don't think noting is a good shamatha practice. It is a better vipassana practice.

 

One time I was walking back to my car after meditating in the woods and I decided to try a style of noting (after learning that the first second in which you perceive an object is the time when your mind has not yet conceptualized (or grasped) the perception -Tolle). What I did was move my head every second, revealing a new scene of trees, leaves and greenery. I did this for about a 1/2 hour. That was fine. (I love the forest, trees and greenery). Anyway, about 1/2 an hour later I walked into a food store and the whole scene dissolved, like I had fainted standing up. I found myself in a huge open space, separate from my body. I had to fight a bit to get back to normal. Didn't know what had happened. So, I concluded that the new noting practice had precipitated that event. Noting seems to be a good way to keep the mind in a preconceptual state.

 

I think noting is a valuable practice, especially if one is monitoring thoughts and trying to find the source of thoughts, or trying to discover the nature of thoughts (how they link together and build up, and carry you away. Also, the practice is very similar to a shamatha technique that Alan Wallace teaches about being a lighthouse of centered perception while the waves of thought come crashing by. But with Alan's technique you don't go hunting around for the thoughts. I also know that once you acknowledge a thought, it dissolves or goes away much quicker.

 

The problem though with noting for me, is that I can get so deep to a place where there are hundreds if not thousands of thoughts whizzing by so quickly that it is just impossible to note them all. It looks like a large stream of rainbow fishes. Have you ever tried to count or note the number of fish in a large school as they dart on by?

 

I think the value in noting is that it trains you to remain in the same stratus of mental consciousness instead of bobbing in and out from shallow to deeper. But at some point, I still think to hit jhana or absorptive contemplation you have to learn how to hold everything still instead of moving your attention around hunting down the next new thought.

 

Also, noting is a good practice or part of the practice when you are trying to analyze dependent origination! I practice that allot during my breaks, I notice how, when a woman walks by, the eye sees the image. I notice where the eyes move and the thoughts that arise. I notice the start of desire and I notice the mind making affirmations and resolves.. Sometimes I even notice the start of physiological changes that accompany the thoughts. Dependent origination. I've also noticed the start of desire when seeing a television commercial. It is amazing that my mind seems to be a separate entity, a dog that I have to keep on a leash lest it run away barking after the latest stimuli.

 

I think every practice has something to teach, a new perspective to reveal and has some form of value. There is also much to be said for sticking with one practice and becoming proficient in it, which often takes longer than just reaching the point of boredom.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice