Pics of the effects of human over population

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"For instance if we wanted to reduce the global population then we should provide good health services and education to women - along with cultural change which puts them in charge of their lives.  That's something we should want to do anyway ... surely."

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Yes. This is reducing the population right now.

 

We have no "good health services" to offer.

 

Ours are actually the leading cause of death.

 

We have no "education" to offer them that has not produced the above, plus all the pollution and devastation in the photos seen in the previous posts.

 

So yes, offering these should reduce everything.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Michael Sternbach]

For instance if we wanted to reduce the global population then we should provide good health services and education to women - along with cultural change which puts them in charge of their lives.  That's something we should want to do anyway ... surely.

 

Hmm... Health services rather tend to prolong life expectancy. This is a great thing per say, but they don't exactly contribute to reducing global population.

 

But ok, educating women so that they can become parts in the wheel work of Western style imperialistic endeavours may actually help controlling population growth as it will keep those women away from having babies.

 

What's that about cultural change? We should change their culture?

Edited April 12, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[dust]

Hmm... Health services rather tend to prolong life expectancy. This is a great thing per say, but they don't exactly contribute to reducing global population.

 

Life expectancy is prolonged, yes. So people have fewer children. This is very well documented.

 

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Who-We-Are/Resources-and-Media/Annual-Letters-List/Annual-Letter-2014#MYTHTHREE

"The fact is that a laissez faire approach to development—letting children die now so they don’t starve later—doesn’t actually work, thank goodness. It may be counterintuitive, but the countries with the most deaths have among the fastest-growing populations in the world."

 

What's that about cultural change? We should change their culture?

 

I don't know what he means, and I don't believe people should force cultural changes upon each other, but I do believe that culture should be fluid. People whose culture is clearly detrimental to their health or wellbeing need to realize that. Clinging onto culture just because that's the way my parents did it... is ridiculous. We in the West need to realize that too, though perhaps the changes we need to make are different.

Edited April 12, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Apech]

Hmm... Health services rather tend to prolong life expectancy. This is a great thing per say, but they don't exactly contribute to reducing global population.

 

But ok, educating women so that they can become parts in the wheel work of Western style imperialistic endeavours may actually help controlling population growth as it will keep those women away from having babies.

 

What's that about cultural change? We should change their culture?

 

 

You haven't thought that through I think as dustybeijing has pointed out.

 

By 'culture' I mean the unshakable assumption that women exist to breed and that having large families is necessary.  there have been studies in India where a good school (open to girls of course) and a health centre were provided to a local village.   The effect was prolonged life expectancy, reduced birth rate, increased prosperity and life expectations.  This is low tech -nothing to do with western technological dependency and you might argue that an education will impact on culture and outlook but surely its more about combatting ignorance and unnecessary suffering.  the opposite of imperialism this is about community empowerment.

[Michael Sternbach]

You haven't thought that through I think as dustybeijing has pointed out.

 

By 'culture' I mean the unshakable assumption that women exist to breed and that having large families is necessary.  there have been studies in India where a good school (open to girls of course) and a health centre were provided to a local village.   The effect was prolonged life expectancy, reduced birth rate, increased prosperity and life expectations.  This is low tech -nothing to do with western technological dependency and you might argue that an education will impact on culture and outlook but surely its more about combatting ignorance and unnecessary suffering.  the opposite of imperialism this is about community empowerment.

 

It's too bad that the latter leads to the former eventually.

 

Solutions must go a little deeper than what you are proposing here - and that goes for all of humanity's  challenges.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

Life expectancy is prolonged, yes. So people have fewer children. This is very well documented.

 

Okay, I take your word for this.

 

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Who-We-Are/Resources-and-Media/Annual-Letters-List/Annual-Letter-2014#MYTHTHREE

"The fact is that a laissez faire approach to development—letting children die now so they don’t starve later—doesn’t actually work, thank goodness. It may be counterintuitive, but the countries with the most deaths have among the fastest-growing populations in the world."

 

They are also the materially poorest countries. Is their population growth just because they don't have sufficient access to Western methods of birth control? I doubt it.

 

I suspect there is a biological program causing humans to reproduce more if the survival of any of their children cannot be taken for granted.

 

I don't know what he means, and I don't believe people should force cultural changes upon each other, but I do believe that culture should be fluid. People whose culture is clearly detrimental to their health or wellbeing need to realize that. Clinging onto culture just because that's the way my parents did it... is ridiculous. We in the West need to realize that too, though perhaps the changes we need to make are different.

 

Let's see what he says...

[Apech]

It's too bad that the latter leads to the former eventually.

 

Solutions must go a little deeper than what you are proposing here - and that goes for all of humanity's  challenges.

 

 

Not sure I follow you.  Perhaps I could put it another way.  People can develop their own solutions but need the tools to do so.  I understand your reluctance to influence cultural changes for others.  And I guess mostly I agree.  But there may be exceptions like for instance female genital mutilation ... I think I would be quite happy if it were possible to insist that this become universally illegal.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'gong a little deeper' perhaps you could explain.

[dust]

Okay, I take your word for this.

 

And so you should!

 

 

They are also the materially poorest countries. Is their population growth just because they don't have sufficient access to Western methods of birth control? I doubt it.

 

Not just birth control by any means. We're talking education, sanitation, health care, contraception, etc etc.

 

 

I suspect there is a biological program causing humans to reproduce more if the survival of any of their children cannot be taken for granted.

 

Yeah. This, or something like this, is a big part of what I was talking about. (I suspect you did not read the Gates Foundation article I linked to, or you would know this already... )

[vonkrankenhaus]

This kind of "helping" has been going on for a while.

 

But - how did so many people become so messed up that they cannot even know or do very basic things that even "wild" people handle well, like birth control and interaction with various environments?

 

They had "help".

 

Here's one old campaign of helping that we have seen the results of:

 

http://www.irwinator.com/126/wdoc36.htm

 

Notice the poor individual depicted saying "Come over and help us".

 

He was "helped".

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Lth]

And so you should!

 

 

 

Not just birth control by any means. We're talking education, sanitation, health care, contraception, etc etc.

 

 

 

Yeah. This, or something like this, is a big part of what I was talking about. (I suspect you did not read the Gates Foundation article I linked to, or you would know this already... )

 

bill gates creeps me out. i think his intentions are not pure

[Apech]

This kind of "helping" has been going on for a while.

 

But - how did so many people become so messed up that they cannot even know or do very basic things that even "wild" people handle well, like birth control and interaction with various environments?

 

They had "help".

 

Here's one old campaign of helping that we have seen the results of:

 

http://www.irwinator.com/126/wdoc36.htm

 

Notice the poor individual depicted saying "Come over and help us".

 

He was "helped".

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

"The irony of the seal is that, in fact, the English settlers generally had no interest in helping the Indians and the Indians did not want English "help." ... from your link.

 

This is about how colonialists interfered with peoples who were living in harmony with nature (to a degree).  No one is suggesting this kind of thing.

[Marblehead]

 

bill gates creeps me out. i think his intentions are not pure

Oh, but they are.  Pure Gold.

[Apech]

Oh, but they are.  Pure Gold.

 

Bill Gate's intentions are without flaw like his operating system Windows 8  (      )

[Michael Sternbach]

Not sure I follow you.

 

As two primary measures you suggest:

 

1. Supplying modern Western medicine.

    

   While it can be valuable regarding certain acute situations it should not be forgotten that our orthodox Western medical system has its severe drawbacks regarding the chronification of illnesses and the economical system. On the other hand, Homeopathy has dramatically proven its unequaled efficiency i.e. in cases of epidemics over hundred years ago, and probably not least for that reason is very popular in India.

    

2. Providing education.

    

   Well, that depends on what you think we need to teach them...

 Perhaps I could put it another way.  People can develop their own solutions but need the tools to do so.  I understand your reluctance to influence cultural changes for others.  And I guess mostly I agree.  But there may be exceptions like for instance female genital mutilation ... I think I would be quite happy if it were possible to insist that this become universally illegal.

 

Oh yes, absolutely, along with a bunch of other things!

[Apech]

As two primary measures you suggest:

 

1. Supplying modern Western medicine.

    

   While it can be valuable regarding certain acute situations it should not be forgotten that our orthodox Western medical system has its severe drawbacks regarding the chronification of illnesses and the economical system. On the other hand, Homeopathy has dramatically proven its unequaled efficiency i.e. in cases of epidemics over hundred years ago, and probably not least for that reason is very popular in India.

    

2. Providing education.

    

   Well, that depends on what you think we need to teach them...

 

Oh yes, absolutely, along with a bunch of other things!

 

I don't think I ever specified 'Western Medicine' ... I was perhaps thinking of building clinics and health centres and perhaps linked to public health measures like clean water and sanitation.  I wouldn't exclude homeopathy or say, aryuvedic medicine if that is what people want.  A midwife service would probably be key.  The problem as I see it is that these kinds of initiatives get taken over by sponsoring pharma companies who either force things like vaccines or actually experiment.  Totally against that.  I would see it as more a case of making things available and giving enough information for people to make their own choices.

 

Education ... well the essence here again is helping people equip them selves with the mental tools to think for themselves.  So basic numeracy, literacy, general science, history and geography, art/music and so on.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"This is about how colonialists interfered with peoples who were living in harmony with nature (to a degree).  No one is suggesting this kind of thing."

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Most people on Earth had little way of not living more-or-less in harmony with nature until quite recently.

 

The colonists (actually, their handlers) first depressed ("helped") the native populations with things like gifts of blankets laced with smallpox, which so debilitated and depopulated them that they began to resemble the propaganda image which had been already built up about the natives back in Europe.

 

Then in the 1960s & 70s there was a lot of push in media about how we needed to help native americans with vaccines and health services and education, because they were all doing so bad that they couldn't take care of themselves.

 

Just a decade before that, people had watching back-to-back "cowboy and indian" movies on TV and psychologically still at war with these people.

 

People in Africa, India, and many other places have had a similar treatment going back quite a while. Hundreds of years of attack on most aspects of their lives, native environment and economy all ruined by convenient "irresposibility", then suddenly we must "help" them with modern biological and psychological control.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[soaring crane]

speaking of living in tune with nature:

 

The worst place on Earth?

[Marblehead]

One of the costs of progress.

 

We did the same thing here in the USA when the country was becoming the wold's leading industrial nation.

[dust]

Progress?

 

I'd laugh, but...

[Apech]

One of the costs of progress.

 

We did the same thing here in the USA when the country was becoming the wold's leading industrial nation.

 

 

And now you turn the sludge into Macburgers and export them to the world.  

[Marblehead]

Hey, whatever brings in the Almighty Dollar.  If someone wants to buy it there will be someone to sell it.

[Gerard]

And our livers (creative, dynamic and intuitive wood energy represented by the liver organ, the trees of our bodies, also extremely sensitive as it opens in the eyes) suffer as a result, the more you cause damage externally the more it is done internally...and vice versa. It's a vicious cycle that never seems to end.

 

Relentless sensual pleasure is destroying humanity and this wonderful planet!

 

Thanks for the article, apech.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Gerard