Potential birth (rebirth) as an animal

[seekingbuddha]

I do not contemplate / fear / meditate / hold strong views about  rebirth.  I just keep an open mind towards  it,  (and have my own theories about it).  I stumbled on  Milerapa's  songs,  and it resonated and penetrated my heart in its wisdom.  As i was reading, i  came upon the following words from a song.   Elsewhere, Milerapa has clearly defined what he calls as Shamatha - so i have no doubts about what level of meditation  he is referring to.  

 

But, I can not fully  understand why he says that the great meditators will be reborn as animals.
Maybe someone here has studied the life and songs of Milerapa in detail, and could shed some light on the final two lines ?  This is more of a curiosity question because I am drawn by his songs;  this does not affect my practice in any way.

 

"..............

The great meditators who meditate in shamatha
Have powerful experiences, so brilliant and clear
They think that it's vipashyana and rest their mind at ease
But when vipashyana is needed at the point of death,
Luminosity's mother and child they cannot bring together
And so the shamatha they've practiced does not help at all.
In fact, has it not made them take birth as an animal?............

"

[Seeker of Wisdom]

He's not claiming the great meditators will become animals. He's saying that if someone only practices shamatha, thinking that it is awakening, this leads to animal rebirth. (Though the traditional claim is that it gets you heavenly rebirth, after which you're likely to have a lower rebirth because you probably just spent that heavenly life obsessed with sense pleasures and not generating merit.)

 

I'm the same as in your first two sentences about rebirth. But if we unpack the idea of 'animal' into 'creature that doesn't have much capacity for investigation and wisdom', this matches up to the idea of a person who thinks that jhanas are awakening and obsesses over them.

 

What I reckon Milarepa's trying to get across is 'don't be a jhana junkie if you want wisdom, but use it alongside vipashyana'.

 

Later in the same song:

 

When free of thoughts, your mind settles so luminious and clear,

That is called the dawning of the shamatha experience.

Now take that experience and make it your foundation,

Then supplicate the precious jewels and do as you've prayed you would:

Listen to and reflect on dharma with supreme precision,

Then use vipashyana to understand selflessness well,

Tie to this the sturdy rope of powerful shamatha,

And with the mighty strength that's found in love and compassion,

For the benefit of sentient beings, give rise to bodhichitta,

And with the energy and force that bodhichitta brings,

Use aspiration prayers so pure to start hauling on that rope,

And pull it straight to the pure path of seeing directly.

Vipashyana will realize purity that can't be seen,

And then you'll see mind's hopes and fears for what they really are.

 

Without going anywhere, you'll arrive at the Buddha's ground.

Without looking at anything, you'll see dharmakaya.

Without achieving anything, you'll naturally reach your goal.

[silent thunder]

I've lived with several feline meditation masters.

Learned much from them.

[doc benway]

I do not contemplate / fear / meditate / hold strong views about  rebirth.  I just keep an open mind towards  it,  (and have my own theories about it).  I stumbled on  Milerapa's  songs,  and it resonated and penetrated my heart in its wisdom.  As i was reading, i  came upon the following words from a song.   Elsewhere, Milerapa has clearly defined what he calls as Shamatha - so i have no doubts about what level of meditation  he is referring to.  

 

But, I can not fully  understand why he says that the great meditators will be reborn as animals.

Maybe someone here has studied the life and songs of Milerapa in detail, and could shed some light on the final two lines ?  This is more of a curiosity question because I am drawn by his songs;  this does not affect my practice in any way.

 

"..............

The great meditators who meditate in shamatha

Have powerful experiences, so brilliant and clear

They think that it's vipashyana and rest their mind at ease

But when vipashyana is needed at the point of death,

Luminosity's mother and child they cannot bring together

And so the shamatha they've practiced does not help at all.

In fact, has it not made them take birth as an animal?............

"

He's talking about the failure of such "great meditators" to reach enough insight through shamatha alone to successfully recognize the nature of mind in the bardo after death. Shamatha can be very appealing and gratifying but we can also develop it to a very high level without developing the proper view - proper insight. Consequently they are unable to avoid rebirth or insure themselves a favorable rebirth because they don't recognize the nature of mind in the bardo. I don't know for sure but I suspect he chooses animal rebirth as the example due to the fact that doing nothing but practicing shamatha without proper insight, is not much different than resting the mind as an animal often does. I don't mean to bash shamatha (it's a wonderful and, IMO, necessary practice) but Milarepa was notoriously harsh with his words.

[seekingbuddha]

I've lived with several feline meditation masters.

Learned much from them.

 

Thanks, this made my day   I love all kinds of cats too, and  their  tranquility is incredible to  watch, once they sit cross legged, and  stay there without  a single movement, for hours together.

[seekingbuddha]

Thanks  Steve and Seeker-of-wisdom.  I understand completely, and have experienced  in myself these words of Milarepa.  The mistake i made was to read it in a hurry, without  double checking  and  in  reading fast, i made the mistake of  understanding his words....

 "They think that it's vipashyana and rest their mind at ease"

into  my perception  of  .......

"They think that it's vipashyana   to   rest their mind at ease"

 

Because i contemplate and focus on  "tranquility/stillness/resting  of  mind"   (as part of day-to-day life practice),   my  mind played a  number on me; and my wrong perception of that  single  word changed that whole line and initiated  a question mark in my mind.   Add to this wrong perception, the other surprise (just like  seeker-of-wisdom)  when i saw that  last few lines saying  shamatha leads to  animal  rebirth.......

 

Now, it has all  become clear, thanks to your comments.   Simple  shamatha can be intense, and creates intense experiences of  spiritual nature.......we can imagine  a similar  state of mind  (single-pointedness) in a cat watching its prey.  Thus, when we are in such a jhana, we are simply living  an  animal's  state of mind.  (I will leave the rebirth issue to  various  mental inclinations, since it is of no  importance to my mind).  Until  I  gained penetrations into  insight/wisdom  of  dhamma,  this  kind of  shamatha  took me nowhere.

 

Steve,  I think Milarepa was not harsh regarding the animal rebirth.  He is spot on, in describing that state of mind  (if we only consider a mind that has deep jhana, but without  any trace of  insight/wisdom/self-awareness  aspect to it).  Which  world will carry/host  such a mind ?   Having directly realized  this, i find  more growth and fruits in  "balancing my mind & practicing",  with consideration to different aspects of the dhamma - ie.  equal importance ascribed to sila, samadhi (increasing jhanas) and panna (insight/wisdom/direct-experience).  A tripod  can not stand on one leg or two.

[Adia]

From my experiences...there are a wide range of possibilities for rebirth.

These all depend on how you are.

Some people are constantly reborn the same.

Some gravitate towards what they feel.

Others do something different.

And others do something else entirely.

It depends on who you are.

And it goes on and on...

It varies with the person.

Meditation or not life will be interesting.

From what I know it is hard to get to the point of not going anywhere

other than what I call "home".

There is such a thing as "fate".

And other people will be mad at you for cheating "fate."

But you can't really cheat "fate".

And yet you can always change who you are.

Or can you?

[Wayfarer]

There is no rebirth, so it doesn't matter whether we wonder if that would be as an animal or not - How do you reconcile Buddhist teachings such as no-birth, no-death...no-coming, no-going....no-self, non-duality, no cause and effect?  If there is no birth and no cause and effect how can there be rebirth or karma?

 

Buddha said that an awakened person steps off the wheel of cause and effect and ends their karma.  Until that happens it is argued that karma and rebirth is a universal law - but it cannot be if in becoming Awake one ends that principle.

 

It ends because in Awakening one realises there is no individual; there is only ONE.  The ONE cannot change anything for there is nothing but itself, nor can it be changed for there is nothing to alter it - there is only Itself - you are THAT.  You are that which cannot change, what you think of as 'you' is how IT appears in this moment - so if I smile and then frown they are different appearances of the same face but the face is the same.

 

To be a Buddha is to realise there is no Buddha for there is no self.  When this is known what can be affected?  When this is known what can one be reborn as other than the ONE?  So right now, you are already an animal, you are a cloud, a stone, a bird, a planet, space, nothingness, somethingness - you are THAT - the only Alone One.  This ONE is expressing itself AS you; so being a human being in its natural simplicity is in a sense to be the purity of THAT...to seek to be one thing or another, or to worry about birth and death is still being THAT but not as its nature.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...one realises there is no individual; there is only ONE.  The ONE cannot change anything for there is nothing but itself, nor can it be changed for there is nothing to alter it - there is only Itself - you are THAT...

Buddhism explicitly disagrees with holding the view of a cosmic Self, just as much as an individual self.

 

Maha-nidana sutta:

 

To what extent, Ananda, does one delineate when delineating a self? Either delineating a self possessed of form and finite, one delineates that 'My self is possessed of form and finite.' Or, delineating a self possessed of form and infinite, one delineates that 'My self is possessed of form and infinite.' Or, delineating a self formless and finite, one delineates that 'My self is formless and finite.' Or, delineating a self formless and infinite, one delineates that 'My self is formless and infinite.'

 

[...]

 

The one who, when delineating a self, delineates it as formless and infinite, either delineates it as formless and infinite in the present, or of such a nature that it will [naturally] become formless and infinite [in the future/after death], or he believes that 'Although it is not yet that way, I will convert it into being that way.' This being the case, it is proper to say that a fixed view of a self formless and infinite obsesses him.

But what about Buddha-nature? Well, this is also not a self. It is merely the principle that the mind has the capacity to become fully awakened.

 

Maha-parinirvana sutra:

 

The Buddha-nature is in fact not the self. For the sake of [guiding] sentient beings, I describe it as the self.

Lankavatara sutra:

 

The reason why the Tathagatas who are Arhats and fully enlightened Ones teach the doctrine pointing to the tathagatagarbha which is a state of non-discrimination and image-less, is to make the ignorant cast aside their fear when they listen to teaching of egolessness. It is like a potter who manufactures various vessels out of a mass of clay of one sort by his own manual skill and labor ... that the Tathagatas preach the egolessness of things which removes all the traces of discrimination by various skillful means issuing from their trancendental wisdom, that is, sometimes by the doctrine of the 'tathagatagarbha' , sometimes by that of egolessness ... Thus, Mahamati, the doctrine of the 'tathagatagarbha' is disclosed in order to awaken the philosophers from their clinging to the idea of the ego. Accordingly, Mahamati, the Tathagatas disclose the doctrine of the 'tathagatagarbha' which is thus not to be known as identical with the philosopher's notion of an ego-substance. Therefore , Mahamati, in order to abandon the misconception cherished by the philosophers, you must depend on the 'anatman-tathagatagarbha'.

[Cheshire Cat]

"..............

The great meditators who meditate in shamatha

Have powerful experiences, so brilliant and clear

They think that it's vipashyana and rest their mind at ease

But when vipashyana is needed at the point of death,

Luminosity's mother and child they cannot bring together

And so the shamatha they've practiced does not help at all.

In fact, has it not made them take birth as an animal?............

"

 

 

This is my personal view of the poem.

 

Shamata is a state of stillness and rest: the more you practice it, the more you can adopt it in every situation...

... but there's always a limit, a situation in which your mind falls from the shamata state: for example seeing a beautiful lady, one can abandon his concentration and experience his lust.

 

Vipasyana is a state of wisdom: everything that you perceive has the three marks (impermanence, no-self, un-satisfactoriness) or just emptiness if you want to talk mahayanically.

Therefore, even if you experience lust, you cannot develop attachment.

 

The process of death gives much troubles to the mind and it may destroy your shamata accomplishment quite easily.

But if your vipasyana is strong enough, your mind is not affected by the experience: you have no fear, no desire and you may eventually become enlightened.

 

To loss the shamata state at the point of death means to die as an ordinary being.

To keep the shamata state at the point of death means to be reborn as a Deva.

 

To have a strong vipasyana practice at your back means to reach liberation.

 

That's my view.

[lino]

This is false. These things are not magical. Rebirth as an animal only happens if you pissed off the wrong people. Since 5,000 years ago these resources for gene therapy of that kind have not been available. The incident with Moses stopped all of these issues.

[SonOfTheGods]

Time doesn't 'really exist'...

 

All events happen Simultaneously, rather than, Sequentially

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38623-how-to-reckon-past-lives-with-time/

 

But you can have a fractured conscious infusion, that is- a partial conscious input/plug in to an animal, in order to experience it.

 

Semi-awareness embedded partially into a domestic creature, such as a pet dog, to exhibit loyalty, simultaneously being present as the dog owner, too

[seekingbuddha]

Buddhism explicitly disagrees with holding the view of a cosmic Self, just as much as an individual self.

 

Maha-nidana sutta:

 

 

But what about Buddha-nature? Well, this is also not a self. It is merely the principle that the mind has the capacity to become fully awakened.

 

Maha-parinirvana sutra:

 

 

Lankavatara sutra:

 

 

Seeker,

     Thanks for these quotes.  I understand from these quotes that Buddha is making it crystal clear that  since there is nothing that can be called a SELF (with which we identify with),  there is no point in any attempt (using words/language) to define SELF  in any way (either cosmic/universal/transcending/all-encompasing SELF or  an individualized/centered/micro/human/animal   SELF).  Thus,  all concepts  that define SELF  would be considered  wrong according to Buddha.

 

(The following is addressed to all):

The statements above are my current understanding, and you are welcome to correct it if it is wrong view.   This brings  up another interesting question.  This is a deep question, and hence attempt  an answer  only  if you can quote  appropriate words from Buddha himself or one of his disciples.....

If  there is  nothing  that  can be  considered as a SELF,   what is  "it"   that  shows up  in the  next  rebirth ? What part of  a human  gets  reborn  as an animal (or as a heavenly being) ?

Edited June 19, 2015 by seekingbuddha

[seekingbuddha]

This is false. These things are not magical. Rebirth as an animal only happens if you pissed off the wrong people. Since 5,000 years ago these resources for gene therapy of that kind have not been available. The incident with Moses stopped all of these issues.

 

Lino,

        Do you care to elaborate on your theory  and  quote appropriate  spiritual  texts as support ?  Milarepa  lived  about 900 years ago.   So,  if you are calling the words  of  such an enlightened being as "false",  do  it  with very cautiously  and with  reverence and respect............for  words  carry  a power  that  are beyond  the understanding of  current/modern/average   humans.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

[...]If  there is  nothing  that  can be  considered as a SELF,   what is  "it"   that  shows up  in the  next  rebirth ? What part of  a human  gets  reborn  as an animal (or as a heavenly being) ?

Well, Thanissaro says:

 

In discussing rebirth, the Buddha differed from the other schools of the time in that he didn't base his position on a metaphysical view of personal identity — that is, on defining what it is that gets reborn. By placing rebirth in the context of dependent co-arising, he was presenting it in a phenomenological context — i.e., one that focused on phenomena as they can be directly experienced and that refused to take a stand on whether there is a reality of "things" underlying them.

In other words, asking 'what gets reborn?' is a mistaken question because it's based on an assumption that a thing is what gets reborn. The Buddha saw rebirth instead in terms of a process - mental and physical components causally linked. Imagine fire burning along a rope - the flames are new flames at each point as the fire burns along. Asking 'what part of the flame moves along the rope?' just doesn't make sense.

 

So in the Buddha's terms, this process is expressed as the nidanas of dependent origination. These are repeated often in the suttas, here's one example from the maha-nidana sutta:

 

Thus, Ananda, from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

[doc benway]

There is no rebirth, so it doesn't matter whether we wonder if that would be as an animal or not - How do you reconcile Buddhist teachings such as no-birth, no-death...no-coming, no-going....no-self, non-duality, no cause and effect?  If there is no birth and no cause and effect how can there be rebirth or karma?

 

Buddha said that an awakened person steps off the wheel of cause and effect and ends their karma.  Until that happens it is argued that karma and rebirth is a universal law - but it cannot be if in becoming Awake one ends that principle.

 

It ends because in Awakening one realises there is no individual; there is only ONE.  The ONE cannot change anything for there is nothing but itself, nor can it be changed for there is nothing to alter it - there is only Itself - you are THAT.  You are that which cannot change, what you think of as 'you' is how IT appears in this moment - so if I smile and then frown they are different appearances of the same face but the face is the same.

 

To be a Buddha is to realise there is no Buddha for there is no self.  When this is known what can be affected?  When this is known what can one be reborn as other than the ONE?  So right now, you are already an animal, you are a cloud, a stone, a bird, a planet, space, nothingness, somethingness - you are THAT - the only Alone One.  This ONE is expressing itself AS you; so being a human being in its natural simplicity is in a sense to be the purity of THAT...to seek to be one thing or another, or to worry about birth and death is still being THAT but not as its nature.

 

This is an error of not recognizing the two truths - absolute and relative.

You are describing Buddhahood (more or less), the absolute truth.

You and I are not Buddha, we are human - thinking, typing, farting, eating, erring humans.

For us there is karma and rebirth, the relative truth

Understanding both aspects is necessary to reconcile the apparent paradox.

[ChiForce]

There is no rebirth, so it doesn't matter whether we wonder if that would be as an animal or not - How do you reconcile Buddhist teachings such as no-birth, no-death...no-coming, no-going....no-self, non-duality, no cause and effect?  If there is no birth and no cause and effect how can there be rebirth or karma?

 

Buddha said that an awakened person steps off the wheel of cause and effect and ends their karma.  Until that happens it is argued that karma and rebirth is a universal law - but it cannot be if in becoming Awake one ends that principle.

 

It ends because in Awakening one realises there is no individual; there is only ONE.  The ONE cannot change anything for there is nothing but itself, nor can it be changed for there is nothing to alter it - there is only Itself - you are THAT.  You are that which cannot change, what you think of as 'you' is how IT appears in this moment - so if I smile and then frown they are different appearances of the same face but the face is the same.

 

To be a Buddha is to realise there is no Buddha for there is no self.  When this is known what can be affected?  When this is known what can one be reborn as other than the ONE?  So right now, you are already an animal, you are a cloud, a stone, a bird, a planet, space, nothingness, somethingness - you are THAT - the only Alone One.  This ONE is expressing itself AS you; so being a human being in its natural simplicity is in a sense to be the purity of THAT...to seek to be one thing or another, or to worry about birth and death is still being THAT but not as its nature.

If you have become a Buddha, and fully enlightened and liberated realized being.  Otherwise, generally, it takes several life times to achieve nibbina.  Hence, there are rebirths and karma. 

[ChiForce]

This is an error of not recognizing the two truths - absolute and relative.

You are describing Buddhahood (more or less), the absolute truth.

You and I are not Buddha, we are human - thinking, typing, farting, eating, erring humans.

For us there is karma and rebirth, the relative truth

Understanding both aspects is necessary to reconcile the apparent paradox.

Correct....or to put it strongly.....the Buddhacitta mind and Buddhavista do not start and end in your life time.... 

[ChiForce]

For the OP, based on my what I can understand and experience, Samatha is just an expedient means to achieve Samadhi and rigpa.  You need Samadhi and rigpa in your death bardo experience in order to be reborn in the heavenly realm.  Otherwise, your emotional attachment would lead you to the path to reborn in a lower realm. 

[gatito]

There is no rebirth, so it doesn't matter whether we wonder if that would be as an animal or not - How do you reconcile Buddhist teachings such as no-birth, no-death...no-coming, no-going....no-self, non-duality, no cause and effect?  If there is no birth and no cause and effect how can there be rebirth or karma?

 

Buddha said that an awakened person steps off the wheel of cause and effect and ends their karma.  Until that happens it is argued that karma and rebirth is a universal law - but it cannot be if in becoming Awake one ends that principle.

 

It ends because in Awakening one realises there is no individual; there is only ONE.  The ONE cannot change anything for there is nothing but itself, nor can it be changed for there is nothing to alter it - there is only Itself - you are THAT.  You are that which cannot change, what you think of as 'you' is how IT appears in this moment - so if I smile and then frown they are different appearances of the same face but the face is the same.

 

To be a Buddha is to realise there is no Buddha for there is no self.  When this is known what can be affected?  When this is known what can one be reborn as other than the ONE?  So right now, you are already an animal, you are a cloud, a stone, a bird, a planet, space, nothingness, somethingness - you are THAT - the only Alone One.  This ONE is expressing itself AS you; so being a human being in its natural simplicity is in a sense to be the purity of THAT...to seek to be one thing or another, or to worry about birth and death is still being THAT but not as its nature.

 

It's good to see that there are others who have seen clearly (Tat Tvam Asi).

[de_paradise]

I do not contemplate / fear / meditate / hold strong views about  rebirth.  I just keep an open mind towards  it,  (and have my own theories about it).  I stumbled on  Milerapa's  songs,  and it resonated and penetrated my heart in its wisdom.  As i was reading, i  came upon the following words from a song.   Elsewhere, Milerapa has clearly defined what he calls as Shamatha - so i have no doubts about what level of meditation  he is referring to.  

 

But, I can not fully  understand why he says that the great meditators will be reborn as animals.

Maybe someone here has studied the life and songs of Milerapa in detail, and could shed some light on the final two lines ?  This is more of a curiosity question because I am drawn by his songs;  this does not affect my practice in any way.

 

"..............

The great meditators who meditate in shamatha

Have powerful experiences, so brilliant and clear

They think that it's vipashyana and rest their mind at ease

But when vipashyana is needed at the point of death,

Luminosity's mother and child they cannot bring together

And so the shamatha they've practiced does not help at all.

In fact, has it not made them take birth as an animal?............

"

 

Milarepa often remarks how his tummo meditation, where the mind is allowed to settle inside bliss is so much more powerful than just sitting and clearing the mind-- the type of meditation that most monks did. This is just taking pot shots at shamatha type meditators using metaphor figurative language meant to piss off the monks.

[seekingbuddha]

Well, Thanissaro says:

 

 

In other words, asking 'what gets reborn?' is a mistaken question because it's based on an assumption that a thing is what gets reborn. The Buddha saw rebirth instead in terms of a process - mental and physical components causally linked. Imagine fire burning along a rope - the flames are new flames at each point as the fire burns along. Asking 'what part of the flame moves along the rope?' just doesn't make sense.

 

So in the Buddha's terms, this process is expressed as the nidanas of dependent origination. These are repeated often in the suttas, here's one example from the maha-nidana sutta:

 

 

Seeker,

     I  have  good  understanding of dependent  origination.  But, the answer is unsatisfactory to me, for 2 reasons:

1. if you use the flame/fire along the rope as metaphor, I would say that  there is a ever-changing  fire/flame,  which is what moves along the rope.
2. Often, Buddha  has  spoken of  a person  getting reborn as an animal or in hell or heaven.  Which means that Buddha  not only spoke of rebirth in the context of dependent origination,  but also in the context of simple/straight-forward  rebirth of a person  during a discourse.  Here, the context and meaning of rebirth is the simplistic views that we hold for rebirth.

So,  the question  still remains open.  I have my own hypothesis as answer to this question, but want to see alternate views from the wise or from a sutta  that I have not yet read.  In addition,  I think this would be an interesting topic to discuss, for the benefit of many here.  If you have a liberated-mind as your teacher,  you can pose the question to your teacher and share your wisdom here...