pdf inner chapters zhuangzi, good translation

[LAOLONG]

www.indiana.edu/~p374/Zhuangzi.pdf

[Apech]

Thanks!  Looks very good on quick scan through.

[Marblehead]

Good, short introduction.

[Geof Nanto]

Thanks for the link, Cobi. It looks excellent from what I've read so far.

 

"He [Zhuang Zhou] attacks our belief that there are any firm facts in the world....." 

 

This is a conclusion that Western philosophers are only recently rediscovering - some with the help of Daoism and especially Zhuang Zhou. 

[Anzhi]

First post. Greetings.

Thank you, most helpful _/\_  

"...Like Laozi, Zhuangzi does not detail any single practical path that can lead us to achieve so dramatic a change in perspective. But his book is filled with stories of people who seem to have made this shift..."

Zhuangzi is a most stimulating companion.

[gatito]

"...Like Laozi, Zhuangzi does not detail any single practical path that can lead us to achieve so dramatic a change in perspective. But his book is filled with stories of people who seem to have made this shift..."

 

Aye, there's the rub...

 

(i.e. for those who haven't made the shift and who have no access to authentic practical methods there's only the stimulation of intellectual (or pseudointellectual) masturbation.)

 

[Marblehead]

Is that something like saying, "You have to do the work."?

[gatito]

No, it's more like saying that the truth is often obfuscated by ignorant twats wankers. Unfortunately, political correctness usually precludes speaking that truth clearly even on the occasions when it's actually appropriate.

However, to answer your question more fully: -

There are several different (and possibly apparently contradictory ways) to approach this, which I'll illustrate by giving just three different answers. Bear in mind that there are many other possibilities and if we were discussing this in-person, we might use a process of iteration to facilitate your own innate ability to home into the most satisfactory answer for yourself (working on the assumption that your question is sincere)...

Interestingly, the final answer would not come from me but from you and our honest interaction and the answer would belong to you because the act of sincere questioning is what produces any answer. Also, it's worth considering the view that an answer is a bīja (बीज) (as opposed to a concrete truth). In any case, questions and answers are a duality and not ultimate Truth.

What I'm outlining here is an illustration of jñāna yoga.

 

Those who see with eyes of knowledge the difference between the body and the knower of the body, and can also understand the process of liberation from bondage in material nature, attain to the supreme goal.

 

So...., depending on how I choose to respond, I could say: -

1. "Of course - do you imagine that I could do the work for you...?"

or I could point towards the ephemeral nature of the (imagined) personal identity by saying: -

2. "Zhuang Zhou was a jnani who illustrated anatta with his parable about the butterfly dream".

 

In this case, I'dbe asking you to challenge yourself because you'd need to deal with a lot of personal prejudice (not least your entirely understandable and justified prejudices about Buddhism).

or: -

3. I could just keep my gob shut and watch you talk to yourself...

BTW, did I ever happen to mention that I'm actually a (real-life) Buddhist...?

[Marblehead]

 

BTW, did I ever happen to mention that I'm actually a (real-life) Buddhist...?

 

I pretty much assumed that.  I have nothing against Buddhists.  I just don't accept the philosophy.

 

But, yes, the question was sincere and you spoke well to it.

 

IMO answer 1. was the best answer.

[gatito]

I pretty much assumed that.  I have nothing against Buddhists.  I just don't accept the philosophy.

 

Ditto...

 

[gatito]

A practical, non-intellectual option is a good energy practice like tai chi or chi gong.

 

 

Yes. One of the downsides to tai chi/chi kung is that it's far from being a complete system because, as you say, it lacks the essential intellectual component (jñāna yoga). We touched on this issue briefly here a few months ago.

 

What I was attempting to infer was that merely studying "scriptures" (for want of a better word) isn't going to do the job because it isn't jnana yoga. See dharmawheel for a good example of the futility of that approach, which could be described as ajñāna yoga.

 

What I also attempted to illustrate is that jñāna yoga (the correct application of  the intellect in this context) is a process of deconstructing false beliefs (and that all existential/philosophical/spiritual/religious beliefs are false in the sense that they are dualistic - which should really be an obvious axiom).

 

I'm not asserting that Taoist (or Bhuddhist) scriptures are without value but that it's wise to avoid the sort of thing that's well-illustrated by dharmawheel (i.e. the misuse of misunderstood scripture to bolster existential/philosophical/spiritual/religious belief systems).

 

As you assert, bodywork, which must include pranayama, is an essential component. However, pranayama is an extremely dangerous undertaking in the absence of a skillful personal (in-person) help. I've recently seen some people here playing with things that make me shudder...

[Marblehead]

Marblehead, please enlighten me why you thanked gatito for post #12? 

Primarily because of this first sentence.

 

Yes. One of the downsides to tai chi/chi kung is that it's far from being a complete system because, as you say, it lacks the essential intellectual component.

 

While it is true of tai chi that awareness is required, it does not exercise our intellect. 

 

Whole body health requires more than just physically exercising.  This is the main reason I am a member of three forums.  The cats and fish don't provide me with much mental challenges and I keep my personal life pretty personal.

 

Just reading stuff is not enough.  We need honest reactions to what we think and say.  Actually, even a bullshit response is good too.

 

My "Thank You" was not intended to be taken as support for any methods he spoke to after that first sentence.  Mostly I could not even make judgement because he used words that I do not understand.

 

BTW  Yes, I did start my tai chi exercising this morning.  Nothing serious or long period of time.  Mostly just stretching of the muscles.  (Most of my old age pains are with my lower back, hips, and legs so that is what I need concentrate on.)

[Marblehead]

Thanks MH for your reply. Hope those pains dissipate!

Thanks.  I know some of them will.  Others are with me till the end.

[Wu Ming Jen]

I personally love the humor of chuang tzu the point of consciousness where there is no me or you or butterfly dream, brillant anything that challenges the intellect is most awesome Tai chi chuan capitalizes on the point of consciousness where people are not aware of movement they see the beginning and end, change the end and one is a incredible boxer.

 

As far as tai chi chuan not being a complete system the name itself exemplifies wholeness. It is born from Taoist philosophy and applied physically. IE not being a mental concept.

[Marblehead]

As far as tai chi chuan not being a complete system the name itself exemplifies wholeness. It is born from Taoist philosophy and applied physically. IE not being a mental concept.

I expected someone to make comment to this.

[Wu Ming Jen]

I expected someone to make comment to this.

Awesome, now that we got that out of the Way can we get back to short skirts and bikinis? By that I mean philosophical discussions of the absolute beauty of the natural world, in any shape or form.

[Marblehead]

Awesome, now that we got that out of the Way can we get back to short skirts and bikinis? By that I mean philosophical discussions of the absolute beauty of the natural world, in any shape or form.

By all means, yes.  Chuang Tzu was an admirer of nature.  Many of his stories have things of nature as the vehicle for the thought being presented.

 

Shape and form are important in nature.

[gatito]

I expected someone to make comment to this.

 

Aye - QED (x2... )

[Anzhi]

Aye, there's the rub...

 

(i.e. for those who haven't made the shift and who have no access to authentic practical methods there's only the stimulation of intellectual (or pseudointellectual) masturbation.)

 

Aha!

 

This moth that landed beside me this afternoon in the garden to see who I was, needed no practical methods to be authentic or to express its inner force. I had never seen it during the two years under tutelage of a Trika Shaivite Tantric Acharya, as i stared into the eyes of my Shiva Murti. The Guru went mad before I nearly succombed too seeking that which could not be ever seen or touched,  and spent many hours with emails rescuing a young innocent from another Guru slicing man.

 

The moth was not present at the year of constant meditation twice week at a Korean Taoist Qi Healing group attired in my robes and my socks. Perhaps it was in the strange sound and power of the Qi Master as he sent me qi after he had developed it in long hours of daily rituals before we arrived. and I felt and knew it for the first time and never forgot it and by which I can now tell the four directions with my eyes closed and without a compass. This qi healed my mind and body and i was renewed. But the taint of the human became excessive again as they then asked for a $1000 for each tree and subtree of my family ancestry to clear something or other. Hahaha!

 

Was it in the rare air of the teachings of Tibetan Dzogchen...much further along the track, Oh Dear Authenticity of Being, I was evntuially to realizing finally it was there all the time and I could finally relax into the freedom of the Path of No-Path. Aha!

 

You do not know it, it is so easy to tell. You are still too full of pride and self yet and that is quite normal. 

For bBirds and moths and straw dog humans like myself I throw away my life, while I dance and hear the spirits speak as clear as the roaring wind in the trees. The birds gather and sing before me and abundance (not cashy washy) ease my fading body. 

I honor the Dao to the depths of my being and doubt nothing and everything.

 

May I suggest an early valuable lesson that you should learn quickly to save you valuable time in development on whichever path you choose to follow, and I honor all of their sincere teachings on authenticity, "OF-ITSELF-SO"

 

>> Do not assume so much from a single sentence, you can lose credibility very quickly, but in return you may receive the precious gift of humility, so important if you are sincere in learning about the powers inherent in true authenticity. But then that depends on how open your Heart is.

 

You have still much to learn my young man. Persevere.

If you perceive I am being somewhat patronizing that is my full intention, I could be your father twice over, my little moth.

 

If you wish to learn the power of the Dao way you may approach me and I will decide how much and whether I instruct you. 

there are others here too, I know. Choose your straw dog or your Tao Bum, they may be ready to tolerate your impudent brashness better than I. 

 

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

 

[Anzhi]

 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Anzhi

[gatito]

Aha!

 

This moth that landed beside me this afternoon in the garden to see who I was, needed no practical methods to be authentic or to express its inner force. I had never seen it during the two years under tutelage of a Trika Shaivite Tantric Acharya, as i stared into the eyes of my Shiva Murti. The Guru went mad before I nearly succombed too seeking that which could not be ever seen or touched,  and spent many hours with emails rescuing a young innocent from another Guru slicing man.

 

The moth was not present at the year of constant meditation twice week at a Korean Taoist Qi Healing group attired in my robes and my socks. Perhaps it was in the strange sound and power of the Qi Master as he sent me qi after he had developed it in long hours of daily rituals before we arrived. and I felt and knew it for the first time and never forgot it and by which I can now tell the four directions with my eyes closed and without a compass. This qi healed my mind and body and i was renewed. But the taint of the human became excessive again as they then asked for a $1000 for each tree and subtree of my family ancestry to clear something or other. Hahaha!

 

Was it in the rare air of the teachings of Tibetan Dzogchen...much further along the track, Oh Dear Authenticity of Being, I was evntuially to realizing finally it was there all the time and I could finally relax into the freedom of the Path of No-Path. Aha!

 

You do not know it, it is so easy to tell. You are still too full of pride and self yet and that is quite normal. 

For bBirds and moths and straw dog humans like myself I throw away my life, while I dance and hear the spirits speak as clear as the roaring wind in the trees. The birds gather and sing before me and abundance (not cashy washy) ease my fading body. 

I honor the Dao to the depths of my being and doubt nothing and everything.

 

May I suggest an early valuable lesson that you should learn quickly to save you valuable time in development on whichever path you choose to follow, and I honor all of their sincere teachings on authenticity, "OF-ITSELF-SO"

 

>> Do not assume so much from a single sentence, you can lose credibility very quickly, but in return you may receive the precious gift of humility, so important if you are sincere in learning about the powers inherent in true authenticity. But then that depends on how open your Heart is.

 

You have still much to learn my young man. Persevere.

If you perceive I am being somewhat patronizing that is my full intention, I could be your father twice over, my little moth.

 

If you wish to learn the power of the Dao way you may approach me and I will decide how much and whether I instruct you. 

there are others here too, I know. Choose your straw dog or your Tao Bum, they may be ready to tolerate your impudent brashness better than I. 

 

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

 

 

x3...