Power

[Daeluin]

What is Power?

What is Use of Power?

What is Abuse of Power?

Superior Power?

Inferior Power?

 

I invite Taomeow to co-own this thread.

[zerostao]

if Te or De is power, it is closely linked to a type of virtue,,

abuse of power is no power at all.

[Unlearner]

On a calm, sunny day, most people are happy;

this is simply nature taking its course.

During a terrible storm, many are unhappy,

yet this is also nature taking its course.

 

So, the people are pleased when nature goes with them,

but they are upset when it goes against them,

even though it serves neither end;

it is neutral, and does not strive to any end.

 

Would this same idea apply to power?

I shall sit on what a good definition for power might be.

[Taomeow]

That which makes things come to life, grow, be whole and supple; that which helps creatures live out their years in harmony with themselves and others, enjoy their life, and fulfill their destiny -- is power.

 

That which robs things of life, growth, health, wholeness, takes away their chance to live out their years in harmony with themselves and others, robs life of its enjoyment, and thwarts destiny -- is abuse of power.

 

That which feeds the hungry and heals the sick is power.  That which exploits hunger and sickness is abuse of power.

 

That which fulfills natural needs is power.  That which denies their fulfillment or exploits them is abuse of power.  

 

That which draws its energy from the sun, the moon, the stars, the earth, air, water, food, safety, freedom, love, and other live creatures is power.

 

That which draws its energy from displacing other creatures and fencing off their access to the sun, the moon, the stars, the earth, air, water, food, safety, freedom, love, and other live creatures is abuse of power.

 

And so on.  Basically power gives what the recipient needs, and abuse of power gives what the abuser wants to give, or nothing at all, or something not equal either to what is needed or to what has been taken away.  Power gives as much as one needs.  Abuse of power gives less than one needs or nothing at all or takes away from someone already in need.  

 

Also all kinds of abuses of power are founded on a falsehood -- you actually have things you need taken away from you, but in such a manner that you don't even know they were taken away from you, and then whatever you get you are led to believe is something you would never be able to get for yourself if the powerful didn't dispense this charity.  You are effectively born a white mouse in a lab cage, and a thousand generations of white mice before you were born in the same cage -- so you have no idea what you really are, the competent, happy, free wild forest mouse that you were a million years ago, or even a house mouse a thousand generations ago.  This you don't know anything about, but you know that this guy in a white coat gives you sugar if you behave.  And you love him.  He's your hero.  He's your higher power.  But what you don't know is what you lost in order to get that lump of sugar -- you lost your destiny, you lost your purpose, you are serving someone else's purpose.  You don't know that power has been abused to make you believe you're getting something while in reality you have been robbed blind of everything you need, everything you once had, and everything you are.

[Daeluin]

德

 

Dé/te means "virtue", "personal character," "inner strength" (virtuosity), or "integrity". The semantics of this Chinese word resemble English virtue, which developed from virtù, a now-archaic sense of "inner potency" or "divine power" (as in "healing virtue of a drug") to the modern meaning of "moral excellence" or "goodness." Compare the compound word taote (Chinese: 道德; pinyin: Dàodé; literally: "ethics", "ethical principles," "morals," or "morality").¹

 

daode jing

38

translation: John C. H. Wu

 

High Virtue is non-virtuous;

Therefore it has Virtue.

Low Virtue never frees itself from virtuousness;

Therefore it has no Virtue.

 

Hugh Virtue makes no fuss and has no private ends to serve:

Low Virtue not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

 

High humanity fusses but has no private ends to serve:

High morality not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

High ceremony fusses but finds no response;

Then it tries to enforce itself with rolled-up sleeves.

 

Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue.

Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity.

Failing humanity, man resorts to morality.

Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.

Now, Ceremony is the merest husk of faith and loyalty;

It is the beginning of all confusion and disorder.

 

As to foreknowledge, it is only the flower of Tao,

And the beginning of folly.

 

Therefore, the full-grown man sets his heart upon the substance rather than the husk;

Upon the fruit rather than the flower.

Truly, he prefers what is within to what is without.

 

 

daode jing

38

translation: Hua-Ching Ni

 

 

One of subtle universal virtue is not conscious of being virtuous, therefore, he is truly virtuous.

One of partial virtue attempts to live up to an external standard of virtue.

Therefore, he is not truly virtuous.

One of whole virtue does not need to do anything in order to be virtuous, because virtue is the very essence of one's true nature.

But, one of partial virtue believes that something must be done in order to prove that he is virtuous.

Thus, partial virtue becomes prevalent when people fail to follow their own true nature.

Benevolence becomes prevalent when people fail to be naturally kind.

Etiquette becomes prevalent when people fail to be righteous and considerate.

When people find no response with etiquette, they roll up their sleeves and force others to respond to them.

When people stray from the subtle way of universal nature, they can no  longer perceive their own true nature.

Thus, they emphasize relative virtue.

When natural virtue is lost, society depends on the doctrine of humanism.

When humanity becomes corrupted, social and religious teachings appear and become powerful forces.

When social and religious teachings become corrupted, what is left behind is the empty shell of superficial ceremonies and artificial etiquette.

When etiquette is emphasized, it is because people lack the simple qualities of fairness and kindness.

This is the starting point of people of confusion.

All of these man-made, partial virtues are merely superficial flowers, a false nature.

When people begin to move away from their own true nature, it is the beginning of hypocrisy.

Therefore, one who integrates his own individual being with the deep nature of the universe sets his heart upon the root of reality rather than the husk, and upon the nourishment of the fruit rather than the fleeting beauty of the flowers.

 

Truly, he cherishes what is deep within rather than what is shallow without.

Knowing this, he knows what to accept and what to reject.

 

daode jing

38

translation: Hu Xuezhi

 

No artificial action whatsoever is taken to qualify for Te,

Superior Te is qualified for being Te.

Artificial action is believed to qualify for Te,

Lower Te is not qualified for being Te.

Superior Te is realized by taking no action at all, and need not be done on purpose.

Inferior Te is realized by taking action, and must be done on purpose.

Superior Benevolence is realized by taking action, and need not be done on purpose.

Superior Righteousness is realized by taking action, and must be done on purpose.

Superior Principle is realized by taking action,

And when the person upholding Superior Principle gets no response, they will stretch their arms in an attempt to enforce the Principle.

Therefore, only when Tao is lost does Te arise,

Only when Te is lost does Benevolence arise,

Only when Benevolence is lost does Righteousness arise,

Only when Righteousness is lost does Principle arise,

The thing called Principle is really the want of both loyalty and faithfulness,

Thus, it is the beginning of all disorder.

Inferior Te, Benevolence, Righteousness, and Principle are just the branches and leaves of the Tao, and the beginning of ignorance.

Therefore, the great person dwells in the thick rather than the thin,

They dwell in the root rather than the twigs.

Therefore, they accomplish Tao by getting rid of inferior Te, Benevolence, Righteousness, and Principle.

 

daode jing

38 (partial)

translation: Fabrizio Pregadio

 

Superior virtue has no doing; there is nothing whereby it does.

Inferior virtue does: there is something whereby it does.

 

cantong qi

translation: Fabrizio Pregadio

 

"Superior virtue has no doing":
it does not use examining and seeking.
"Inferior virtue does":
its operation does not rest.

 

huanghe fu

translation: Fabrizio Pregadio

 

Superior virtue keeps one's form intact by means of the Tao: one's Pure Qian ☰ has not lost its integrity.

Inferior virtue extends one's existence (ming) by means of a technique: one conjoins Kan ☵ and Li ☲ and there is achievement.

 

 

Liu Yiming quotes these last two here, translation: Fabrizio Pregadio

 

Essentially, in superior virtue one's body is intact and one's virtue is full, and the Yang of Qian ☰ has never been damaged. "Never been damaged" means that the precelestial Yang has never been damaged; it does not mean that the postcelestial body has not lost its integrity. When the Yang of Qian is plentiful, with a pure and flawless perfect Essence and an inchoate One Breath, the five agents gather together and the four images join in harmony. All of the precious things are intact.

 

Without a method for protecting and guarding this, the Yang necessarily culminates and generates the Yin; wholeness culminates and becomes lacking. Those who know this hasten to seek the oral instructions of an enlightened master. Without waiting for the birth of Yin, they use the method of "keeping one's form intact by means of the Tao." They set the natural True Fire in motion, and refine the Yin breath of the entire body; they use the Yin instead of being used by the Yin, and achieve efficacy in the postcelestial. When the Yin is exhausted and the Yang is pure, they live a long life free from death.

 

OK, so that's speaking about internal alchemy. But more than that, it is describing the principles of Power in a specialized language.

 

When Yang culminates, Yin is born within Yang. But for Power to be true, whole, complete, that fullness of Yang must simply flow purely within the Yin that already surrounds it.

 

Using the Yin instead of being used by the Yin. Here we have something that can be accomplished, and this is none other than transforming the post-celestial (houtian 后天) back into the pre-celestial (xiantian 先天). But how do we do that?

 

Liu Yiming says in Cultivating the Tao (translation: Fabrizio Pregadio): Conquest within generation is the postcelestial Way of following the course. Generation within conquest is the precelestial Way of inverting the course. And here is a principle that can be used not just in alchemical application of power, but in every day life as we interact with the world.

 

Yiming is speaking about the Five Phases, commonly known as the Five Elements, and their cycles of creation and control. It is easy to see that water puts out fire, or that fire requires a fuel to burn. But when someone takes that fuel over there and forces it to burn, this is controlling what has been created - this is conquest within generation - this is a postcelestial manifestation - this is abuse of power. Why? Because it upsets balance. Why? Because every time we manipulate our environment by choice, the ebb and flow of nature requires extra work to re-balance what was changed, extra noise is created, and chaos unfolds. 

 

See, in the natural world there is a fine balance of post-celestial creation and acceptance of balance. Extreme changes certainly occur, but often there is time in between for living winds of change to emerge that connect everything together. But these days those rivers of life are all closed up because the roads of man create artificial rivers that drain away the natural flow that had been created. Worse, the energy that is siphoned off has trouble finding a way to flow naturally. Whereas before it would flow between regions, ever replenishing and purifying, now it gets manipulated, manufactured, processed, mentalized, systematized, and when we no longer have use for it we cut away the cancerous result and dump it in our wastelands to stagnate for the decades upon decades (or centuries upon centuries) necessary for it to decompose into something that might welcome a new flow of life into it.

 

All sources have limits.

 

Correct application of power trusts the flow of balance, rather than controlling the flow of balance. The flow of balance is a dance of transformation. When something transforms, the existing phase dies and is reborn as something new. The idea here is that when we attach to the phase we are in and refuse to change, refuse to transform, we begin to stagnate the natural flow of balance. If we only attach to life, and deny death, where is the balance? Surely all that fuels our life comes from the death of other lives. Usually when something dies it returns to nourish the living things around it. But these days by the time we allow ourselves to die we are all poisonous inside, and even then we don't allow our body to return to the flow of balance, but seal our dead flesh inside of boxes. How presumptuous!

 

When we rest upon what controls our flow, when we trust upon where we are led, and allow ourselves to adapt to the situations we find ourselves in, harmony is created. Often this requires surrendering one form of attachment or another. If someone knocks on our front door and we are busy, we transform ourselves by surrendering what we were doing and flowing into something new. Unfortunately, often what we are doing is entirely related to controlling creation, so, even when we transform, the situation we leave behind begins to stagnate, causing us extra mental expenditure / stress. How many projects do we leave in stagnant states? Even more unfortunately, many people these days simply refuse to answer the door, remaining attached to whatever phase they currently occupy - these days often in front of some glowing screen.    But perhaps the importance of this principle is becoming more clear. When we allow ourselves to transform, not based on our own choices and desires, but based on where the flow of life is leading us (including taking care of our true internal needs), then this is creation within control - this is generation within conquest - this is precelestial manifestation - this is balanced application of power.

 

Even better, Liu Yiming has laid out a whole framework to assist in this generation within conquest. Using the five confucian virtues in the operation of the five phases and beginning with integrity, he rests one upon the guidance of that which controls it, linking them all together in a chain that refines the postcelestial into the precelestial so that the five agents gather together and the four images join in harmony.

 

In Thomas Cleary's translation of Liu Yiming's Taoist I Ching, there is an Arcana section at the back.

(Full excerpt here.)

 

Liu also uses the scheme of the five virtues to elaborate on the outgrowth of this return to truth, or restoration of the primal [precelestial]. When wisdom is based on truthfulness, he says, knowledge is not used randomly; you are free from greed and ambition, your mind is peaceful and its energy is harmonious. Then you are pleased with reality and produce courtesy from within wisdom. When courtesy is based on wisdom, you can harmonize with those unlike yourself and you do not do anything discourteous; impatience sublimates, so that you no longer become angry but instead become just.

 

When justice is based on courtesy, Liu continues, you are just without bias, able to adapt to changes while following guidelines in your actions. Then you delight in good and develop kindness. When kindness is based on justice, you are kind without being weak, as good as possible, without evil, sincerely whole-hearted, without duplicity. Then you are free from selfish desires and are therefore truthful.

 

When truthfulness is based on kindness, forming the final link in the circle, you are steadfast and unwavering; true will appears, and wandering attention quiets down. Celestial and mundane intentions combine, so that you can be joyful, angry, sad, or pleased, all without selfish desire.

 

This state is called the subordination of the temporal [postcelestial] to the primal [precelestial]; Liu says, "Merged with the design of nature, not conceiving human desires, you return to the origin of life, so that you realize your original self." In Taoist terms, this is called the formation of the spiritual embryo, or the crystallization of the gold pill. In Confucian terms, it is called clarifying the good and returning to the origin. In Buddhist terms, it is called great wisdom reaching the ultimate aim.

 

The Five Phases are simply the phases of the growth of a cycle, and they manifest much as one might draw a circle from beginning to end. But that circle wouldn't be very round, balanced, if not for the guidance of the different parts of the circle that say open a little this way, adjust a little that way, ever refining, purifying. Without this guidance toward balance - one part of the circle begins to deviate.

 

Earth is intention - truthfulness, sincerity, integrity | or lack thereof.

Water is related to stillness, potential - wisdom | greed.

Fire is expression, manifestation - courtesy | impatience.

Metal is settling, accepting, returning, killing, dying, sensing, discerning - justice | anger.

Wood is energy, fuel, growth - kindness | duplicity.

 

It makes sense. When we are sincere, it is like Earth that is held together, giving a good foundation from which to shape the flow of water when it moves. If we are not sincere, the water becomes muddy. A fun experiment is simply to put some dirt into some water, shake it up. All cloudy, no clarity. Wait. In time (stillness, which for us requires sincerity) the earth settles and the water becomes clear.

 

By resting upon where the flow of balance leads us, never adjusting our trajectory due to our own desires, it is like constantly maintaining sincerity, which helps to make the water more and more clear, the fire more and more courteous, the metal more and more accepting, the wood more and more kind, and the earth more integral, until they all are in such fine balance they return to oneness and Superior Power emerges.

 

Back to Using the Yin instead of being used by the Yin... when we control our environment, this is like allowing a little yin to enter within us as we spend a little yang. When we allow ourselves to flow where our environment leads, we don't need to control anything, and can simply relax upon the flow of dao. This is a distinction made between the internal and external Zhuangzi refers to as walking two roads - adapting to the external environment while preserving the internal environment.

 

Rather than sucking energy out of the source and transforming it into the 10,000 things as the galaxies push and shove each other apart in chaos, ever expanding the universe, the center lost.... imagine the return as galactic momentum begins to harmonize, balanced and ablaze with refined transformation as everything begins to return ever closer to the heart, the mysterious center.

 

Internal, External, Local, Global, Microcosm, Macrocosm - these principles apply to all levels.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Daeluin

[dwai]

Master Waysun Liao suggests that "Te" is mistranslated as "virtue". It really is a complete copy of the Dao that is available to us. When we can connect with it, we connect with the Dao. This is achieved through vibrating our energy/qi in resonance with the Te/Dao. Power then is anything that happens when we are in resonance with Te/Dao.

 

Then there is no abuse or use. Power works through us. It is the will of Dao.

[blue eyed snake]

Master Waysun Liao suggests that "Te" is mistranslated as "virtue". It really is a complete copy of the Dao that is available to us. When we can connect with it, we connect with the Dao. This is achieved through vibrating our energy/qi in resonance with the Te/Dao. Power then is anything that happens when we are in resonance with Te/Dao.

 

Then there is no abuse or use. Power works through us. It is the will of Dao.

 

even though i'm somewhat too tired and ill for thinking.

 

I thought about power and the misuse/abuse of power as ( i think) taomeow described it. Then I thought: maybe abuse of power is what happens when people try to control something/somebody. That seems obvious but it goes very deep. People often fear not to be able to control their lives.

 

Then, using power without wanting control over anything, not even unconsciously so, is pure use of power. In which case you don't really use it...but it more or less happens through you.

 

I remember when I was young(er) I could sometimes heal people, i didn't know how or what. It just happened to me, as if I was a pipeline. The only thing needed for that to happen was a bursting feeling of compassion in the region of my heart

 

and this train of thought seems to me in accordance with dwais post??

[dawei]

Master Waysun Liao suggests that "Te" is mistranslated as "virtue". It really is a complete copy of the Dao that is available to us. When we can connect with it, we connect with the Dao. This is achieved through vibrating our energy/qi in resonance with the Te/Dao. Power then is anything that happens when we are in resonance with Te/Dao.

 

Then there is no abuse or use. Power works through us. It is the will of Dao.

 

I've always thought along this line too...  sometime like the, De is "Dao in you".

 

Recently I found some of my old notes and I had written that De is the 'transmission of Dao'.

[Unlearner]

Master Waysun Liao suggests that "Te" is mistranslated as "virtue". It really is a complete copy of the Dao that is available to us. When we can connect with it, we connect with the Dao. This is achieved through vibrating our energy/qi in resonance with the Te/Dao. Power then is anything that happens when we are in resonance with Te/Dao.

 

Then there is no abuse or use. Power works through us. It is the will of Dao.

 

This is very interesting, as you almost always hear of De and virtue being practically synonomous (note that in most translations Dao is kept as Dao, while De is almost universally translated as virtue).

 

A very good observation, if I may say so myself. Indeed, Lao Tzu even says that whatever goes against the Dao will soon cease to be. Perhaps much of what we as humans consider to be "power" is a lot to do with the views of society. A man or woman of great station is still a man or woman, they are simply elevated to that station because their society has allowed it, and such a station is simply a title and position that has been assigned to them. Can such use and abuse of "power" even be called such? Only because society allows it.

[Unlearner]

德

 

daode jing

38

translation: John C. H. Wu

 

daode jing

38

translation: Hua-Ching Ni

 

daode jing

38

translation: Hu Xuezhi

 

daode jing

38 (partial)

translation: Fabrizio Pregadio

 

I feel that this is a great excerpt to take note of (as well I applaud your presentation of these numerous translations), as this alone speaks volums on many differences between the ways of society and Dao, the natural way.

 

I have not read all of your commentary, yet, but what I have read so far is very interesting.

[Stosh]

Cmon, power is redirecting the forces of the world to suit ourselves. Abuse of power is making things worse.Theres no such things as superior and inferior power or power that has no effect on anything.

[Taomeow]

Cmon, power is redirecting the forces of the world to suit ourselves. Abuse of power is making things worse.Theres no such things as superior and inferior power or power that has no effect on anything.

 

 

"Redirecting the forces of the world to suit ourselves..."  ...hmm...  one would have to be separate from the world and in opposition to it in order to see power this way.  Which, unfortunately, is exactly our position.  But it's not a good position to be in, not a smart one, and above all not a durable one.  

 

So, use of power the way the world uses it is the right way to go.  Ever gave birth to a child?  That's a tremendously powerful process, and you don't redirect anything to suit your needs when you engage in this power completely, with everything you are.  You start redirecting and abusing power, however, when you employ artificial methods to boost fertility of someone whom nature has deemed not healthy enough to procreate at this time, or induce labor by a certain date, so chosen because the parents or the doctor have a vacation scheduled and consequently the new world (which every child is) will be born not quite complete so as to accommodate that which suits someone else's needs, and tampered with from the start -- and imprinted with a drive toward tampering with stuff because that's the first systemic lesson he or she has been taught.  An experiential, internalized, embodied lesson in power abuse.

 

Can you tell the difference?  Inducing labor against the way of the world is also a kind of power -- to use this power is to abuse power, to have it but not use it is use of power.  

[Stosh]

Not smart, is doing things that would happen anyway. Or not doing things that need doing.

No ,one isnt apart from the world, youd have to be outside of it somehow, but one has free will you arent an innocent robot and you are responsible.

If you want the rainforests to remain, well then people need to exercise the power they have. If you want that baby to live, you need to feed it. Sitting and waiting for things isnt as effective as doing something to bring them about.

Abdicating the responsibilities and needs associated with caring for that baby constitutes child abuse.

Taking misfortune lying down and rotting in place ,is not durable. You can struggle, you can give up. I didnt tell anybody what to do , I am just saying what power is. There are times for restraint, but its not reasonable not to exercise any power. Thats misled. I dont care what the book seems to say,and its just wrong if it does.

[Taomeow]

This is exactly my point.  I never said power shouldn't be used.  I said it shouldn't be abused, and people must learn the difference.  

 

Must learn the difference or disappear from the world.  The universe does not tolerate either non-use of power when it must be used or use of power when it mustn't be used for longer than it takes an experimental species to try.  Any species as young as ours is experimental.  Blow it and you're gone.  Nothing endures in this world that does not know how to use power without abusing it.  Nothing.  

[Daeluin]

Sure, Stosh, power is power. Nothing wrong with inferior power, or abuse of power. As power leaks out of one entity and into another it just maintains the ebb and flow of life and death.

 

Thing about cancer like use of power is that eventually the cancer dies off. It may take much of life on earth with it, but there's decent reason to believe life could again flourish here before earth meets its end or the sun winks out.

 

The point about making a distinction is not to attempt to control those who abuse power - that is just another way of abusing power. But by making a distinction, and seeing the pattern, we have the option of walking a course that leads to balance and a replenishing of and reconnecting to power.

 

As for the rainforests, sure - again, we have the option of how to apply the power to help the rainforests. If we attempt to control the people who find value in cutting down the rainforests, by directly opposing what they are doing, that is just another abuse of power - controlling a force that is already in motion. Opposition usually only maintains a situation anyway, unless one side is much bigger. On the other hand, when those rainforests die off that will control the shape of life on earth - so we can find ways to transform the situation, perhaps through coming up with a better alternative to cutting down trees to make a living, educating people who live near the rainforests how to integrate with those existing ecosystems, and encouraging alternatives for those who like building out of rainforest materials. Any of this might be "inferior power," but it is still power applied in the direction towards overall balance, as far as we know.

 

But that's the thing - we never really know. So the Sage sits back and hands the reigns over to the dao, and the dao carries the Sage along and change unfolds with each breath. This change might appear to be invisible to the average person, or this change might appear as visible as lightning, but with no apparent connection to the Sage.

 

I enjoy Waysun Liao's story of Laozi, who simply radiates trust in all directions never lifting a finger to defend himself, even as all who intend him harm mysteriously have that harm reflected back upon themselves. We don't need to decide oh this person needs my healing, this person does not. We can simply cultivate superior power within ourselves and if we happen to wander by a person who needs healing and is open to being healed, suddenly they find themselves healed.

[Uroboros]

In relation to Daeluin's quote from Liu Yiming concerning emotional/mental states and their Five Phase correspondence relating to cultivation..

 

Does Earth/Sincerity/Integrity relate to Wu Wei?

 

My thought is this, if we are who we are and act according to what is naturally, self-so, within us, is that what Wu Wei is about? Or is Wu- Wei what Earth becomes after nurturing the whole cycle of Phases?

 

Relating this chain of thought to Power/Te-  If Te is within us and it is a piece of Tao, then we would need to be our Self to embody and manifest Te.

 

How does Ziran fit into this?

 

Food for noggin munching

 

Thank you for all the posts! It is very helpful.

[Daeluin]

Integrity helps us to achieve balance, and within that balance we might return to the heart of things.

Wu and Ji are the Celestial Stems of Yang Earth and Yin Earth. In taiji the 'wuji' is where the 'taiji' originates from.

 

The quotes above say that inferior power and 'doing' are related, while superior power and 'non-doing' are related.

The way this principle applies to inner alchemy is that doing is used to replenish the whole, and then non-doing is used to incubate the whole, after which the operation changes again, perhaps toward use of ziran to preserve the unified whole.

[Unlearner]

Some more thoughts after sitting on this:

 

I feel that there is a significant difference between "power" and "control".

Power comes from within. Nature has physical power, while people have individual personal power.

 

Using technology, studying and manipulating the physical properties of the universe to harness the power of nature is not power; this is control of natural power.

This can be useful, but it is also an illusion, because the power does not come from the individual.

This control can come close to being absolute, since nature does not have its own agenda other than to follow the Dao; but it does not necessarily reach absolute control, since no one can have a perfect understanding of nature. How close or far would depend on the individual's understanding of nature.

 

Likewise, when an individual leads a group, this is not power, but control of the power of individuals.

This control is not absolute, and is subject to the individuals under the leader.

 

Study and learning typically consists of improving control.

Then, cultvation consists of building and making more efficient the usage of internal energy, thereby improving personal power.

Building personal power does not lead to improving control.

Rather, I would say that zerostao's assertion that we could liken power to De as being more accurate, though I've come to appreciate Master Liao's (via dwai) description of De rather than simply calling it "virtue".

 

So, as from above:

Control is abused, not power.

"Superior power" is power.

"Inferior power" is control.

 

 

 

... maybe.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Unlearner

[Taomeow]

Control of power is not abuse.  You exercise control over the power of your appetite every time you refrain from overeating, or give your food to someone who is hungrier. 

 

Control is good.  Unless it is abused, everything about power is good, including its ability to submit to control, not to run amok, not to turn into an out-of-control force of indiscriminate destruction.  Control of your own power that will cause others to accept your leadership is what makes a mother a mother, and the mother of the universe, the mother of the universe.       

 

 Abuse of power is any use or non-use of power that is done differently from the way nature does it.  If you can think of a situation where everything you do will be done exactly the way nature does it -- not "better" than the way nature does it, but exactly AS nature does it -- it means you know how to use power.  Anything else you come up with -- anything at all -- constitutes abuse of power.  I wasn't kidding when I said we're red-flagged by the universe as too powerless to make it.  That's because we haven't used power in ten thousand years.  You can't simultaneously use and abuse power.  One completely excludes the other.  You can't be slightly pregnant.  It's that simple.  If you can't do things the way nature does things, it means you are abusing power. 

[Uroboros]

Control of power is not abuse.  You exercise control over the power of your appetite every time you refrain from overeating, or give your food to someone who is hungrier. 

 

Control is good.  Unless it is abused, everything about power is good, including its ability to submit to control, not to run amok, not to turn into an out-of-control force of indiscriminate destruction.  Control of your own power that will cause others to accept your leadership is what makes a mother a mother, and the mother of the universe, the mother of the universe.       

 

 Abuse of power is any use or non-use of power that is done differently from the way nature does it.  If you can think of a situation where everything you do will be done exactly the way nature does it -- not "better" than the way nature does it, but exactly AS nature does it -- it means you know how to use power.  Anything else you come up with -- anything at all -- constitutes abuse of power.  I wasn't kidding when I said we're red-flagged by the universe as too powerless to make it.  That's because we haven't used power in ten thousand years.  You can't simultaneously use and abuse power.  One completely excludes the other.  You can't be slightly pregnant.  It's that simple.  If you can't do things the way nature does things, it means you are abusing power. 

 

How do you begin to start using Power?

 

At the very least, we can actualize our own destiny and utilize our power.

[Unlearner]

Control of power is not abuse.  You exercise control over the power of your appetite every time you refrain from overeating, or give your food to someone who is hungrier. 

 

Control is good.  Unless it is abused, everything about power is good, including its ability to submit to control, not to run amok, not to turn into an out-of-control force of indiscriminate destruction.  Control of your own power that will cause others to accept your leadership is what makes a mother a mother, and the mother of the universe, the mother of the universe.       

 

 Abuse of power is any use or non-use of power that is done differently from the way nature does it.  If you can think of a situation where everything you do will be done exactly the way nature does it -- not "better" than the way nature does it, but exactly AS nature does it -- it means you know how to use power.  Anything else you come up with -- anything at all -- constitutes abuse of power.  I wasn't kidding when I said we're red-flagged by the universe as too powerless to make it.  That's because we haven't used power in ten thousand years.  You can't simultaneously use and abuse power.  One completely excludes the other.  You can't be slightly pregnant.  It's that simple.  If you can't do things the way nature does things, it means you are abusing power. 

 

I never said control was abuse of power, I said control is that which is subject to being abused. I did not intend to imply that there should be a negative connotation associated with control; rather, I wholeheartedly agree with your reply, so I do not see a contradiction.

[Daeluin]

Yes, this thread is titled Power and tagged "de." It would have been tagged 德 if the forum software allowed.

 

The ocean simply allows its water to become clouds, rain, and to provide us with life giving water, and in the end we return what we took back to it. Meanwhile it allows without saying yes or no. This is like dao being used as superior de. This has long life.

 

When the power of dao is used by choice, it becomes inferior de.

When we use power by choice, it doesn't return on its own like that.

This has short life.

 

All this talk of what is natural.... lacks understanding of circumstantial balance. When Kudzu grows, this is by choice, this is inferior de. If left unchecked it would grow over everything. If some form of rock transformed everything into rock, if left unchecked our planet would just be rock. There are many like that. We don't know, but I can imagine planets where a spark of life is born, only to die off as soon as that life dies without finding a way to be reborn, replenished. And so it rests in stillness until such a time comes. 

 

We happen to live in a zone where conditions were just right for great diversity to cause many challenges to unlimited growth, resulting in balanced, yet ever changing ecosystems that never allow that spark of life to be snuffed out completely. Then humanity comes along and charts a course to unlimited growth, and the balance wanes. This too is natural.

 

What is of material form, has counterpart in spirit form. Alone, they have limits of how close they can come to dao. Life is the sign of their mating. The life this mating produces is in deep connection with dao - and so life becomes power, as we use it to travel through time.  Life gives the potential for return to dao, even as the precedent has been set to use this connection to dao as power, mixing and rearranging the material and spiritual shapes until the life winks out and the material and spiritual separate from dao again.

 

There are many types of life - the motion of the planets is a type of life, the living plants and animals are a type of life, the demons and angels are a type of life. All of these are controlled by their existing momentum. Human life is rather curious, as even as it is controlled by its momentum, it has achieved such inner balance that it has the ability to choose. Often it chooses to increase its momentum, but it has potential to unwind its momentum, and to return. Often it chooses to blaze it's own trail through time, but it has the choice to rest upon time as though falling back toward dao. This is the distinction between using and allowing use.

 

Controlling power and creating with power is all abuse of power, if we choose to do so while hiding from our connection to dao.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Daeluin

[Daeluin]

OK, so in light of that, we might be able to say that to help the dao is in direct proportion to the creation of homes for life - homes with the potential for more spirit-material integration.

 

I was speaking with someone earlier about the concept of HunDun, primordial chaos. If felt to me as though the unfolding of primordial chaos from the dao was akin to nebulae (or perhaps the ISM), and I pondered on what shape the return to primordial chaos would take. Well perhaps we're living it.

 

So I stand by everything I've said in regards to power and abuse of power. Trusting to the dao and allowing our momentum to unfold without letting ego and desire get in the way is likely our best chance to help the dao continue to create these havens of circumstantial balance where ever more sophisticated and nuanced life forms emerge to create the primordial chaos that ultimately returns to dao.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Daeluin

[Daeluin]

And now I begin to see the home for immortals who walk the earth as oceans of power able to maintain balance despite all threats to balance.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Power is the successful attainment of an intent or intended result.

Measurement of power would be a varying flux contrast between desire, effort, and attainments/failures and the ratios between the desire/effort contrasts to attainments/failures.