The Laozi as a Manual of Neidan

[Saoshun]

someone would have to know what the texts say , or they have no purpose ,  right , they would be useless , just meaningless ink on bamboo- unless someone could derive something from them .

 

 

Great, you discovered basis of ignorance and one of many things that hold back people to realize the true meaning, the text beyond text, but you are such a fool that you insist and hold to this idea the same time indeed sad. taking poison as medicine, or diseased condition as a health. 

 

"There is a body outside the body" 

 

There is text outside the text. The one fool deleted my posts with the key but seems that's your karma to dwell forever in these realms.

 

good luck.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Saoshun

[Stosh]

Great, you discovered basis of ignorance and one of many things that hold back people to realize the true meaning, the text beyond text, but you are such a fool that you insist and hold to this idea the same time indeed sad. taking poison as medicine, or diseased condition as a health. 

 

"There is a body outside the body" 

 

There is text outside the text. The one fool deleted my posts with the key but seems that's your karma to dwell forever in these realms.

 

good luck.

The only hard part here is that you wont say whether you understand the texts or not. Its disingenuous.

[dawei]

Great, you discovered basis of ignorance and one of many things that hold back people to realize the true meaning, the text beyond text, but you are such a fool that you insist and hold to this idea the same time indeed sad. taking poison as medicine, or diseased condition as a health. 

 

"There is a body outside the body" 

 

There is text outside the text. The one fool deleted my posts with the key but seems that's your karma to dwell forever in these realms.

 

good luck.

 

~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~

 

Saoshun is banned.  

 

He talks quite respectfully at Dharma Wheel but wants to be an intellectual, insulting and trolling bully sort here.

 

The topic remains open for discussion

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Marblehead]

Darn.  And now I have nothing to say.

[Taoist Texts]

Neidan makes peeps angry.

[Taomeow]

Good topic, bad execution.  Let's start from scratch.

 

There's books out there -- especially, but not exclusively esoteric ones -- that have more than one, and sometimes more than a few, layers of meaning embedded into their carefully crafted structure.  The uppermost layer is sometimes deceptively clear, and sometimes obscured by the need for this deeper structuring, and may sound weird if one does not discern other layers underneath that dictated a particular shaping of the upper one.  The hidden layer, once discovered, can be very deceptive too, because successfully finding what was hidden and not noticed/understood by the "ordinary" readers may result in a cocky know-it-all attitude, and the person able to decipher what others missed forms a false idea of his or her powers of interpretation.  But there's books where this second, hidden layer, while having its own cognitive merits and revealing some secrets, is also just a way to hide an even more esoteric one, a layer that can't be deciphered from the text alone.  

 

So here we can find ourselves at the level of meta-text and context.  The pointers to the meta-text may be there -- or not, its presence and significance can arise contextually without ever being revealed via any particular verbal or symbolic detail.

 

For example, I was watching an episode of the new (and mercilessly leaked ahead of release -- thanks streamers) season of A Game of Thrones.  There's a scene therein.  Melisandre is attempting to seduce John Snow.  He is finding it hard to resist but at the last minute stops her, takes a step back, and tells her, "I've sworn an oath."  She points out that he had broken it once already, and that his lover is dead and does not need him anymore.  He says, I know, but I still love her.  Melisandre, leaving the room in charged silence, then turns around before stepping out the door and tells him, "You know nothing, John Snow."  No one will understand the thunderous occult implications of this simple statement who doesn't have the meta-text and the context.  No translator, if this was an episode in a book that survived a thousand years from now, without the prequel having survived, would know that what it really means is that Melisandre has powers unimaginable, that her quoting something that was the dead girl's intimate way of saying "I love you" which she couldn't possibly know anything about by ordinary human means is a dire warning -- that what she (Melisandre) really said to him means "I command forces you can't begin to fathom, you are messing with something more dangerous and terrifying than you could possibly ever imagine."  And it's not even an esoteric ancient book in Chinese -- it is a modern popular show.  Goes to show you.  

 

As for TTC.  Yes, it is a book on neidan.  It does not invalidate reading its topmost layers correctly as a political pamphlet, and the next one as a taiji instruction manual, and even, perhaps, as a work of philosophy (though I've always had reservations regarding this particular layer, suspecting that most of it was contributed by Confucian approach imposed artificially and by foreign translators of other denominations flavoring the original with their own interpretations.)     

[dust]

I've not been heavily involved in any particular discussion on this before.

 

My mind is open, though I admit am sceptical that certain chapters could be interpreted in this way.

 

Also, as TT suggested, anything can be a metaphor for neidan anything if you look hard enough...

 

 

 

As Saoshun is no longer here to throw random insults at people, perhaps you (Taomeow) could in your infinitely more erudite and eloquent way explain a bit of neidan content in the DDJ (i.e. with regard to some specific chapters)?

[dawei]

As for TTC.  Yes, it is a book on neidan.  It does not invalidate reading its topmost layers correctly as a political pamphlet, and the next one as a taiji instruction manual, and even, perhaps, as a work of philosophy (though I've always had reservations regarding this particular layer, suspecting that most of it was contributed by Confucian approach imposed artificially and by foreign translators of other denominations flavoring the original with their own interpretations.)     

 

Exactly... multi-layered.  Peeling one back reveals another layer.

 

Some who look at just the Guodian have come to stress the theme of 'rulership'... but that is just the layer which jumps out.  They would seem to miss how neidan is rulership; rulership in a way Laozi means... and even Zhuangzi seems to mean.

 

A ruler who gets out of the way by reducing everything inside and outside of himself... he reduces himself to become no longer the ruler.  He thus becomes 'unknown'.

 

If it sounds like obscure speak for neidan, then I made my point...

[dawei]

I've not been heavily involved in any particular discussion on this before.

 

My mind is open, though I admit am sceptical that certain chapters could be interpreted in this way.

 

Also, as TT suggested, anything can be a metaphor for neidan anything if you look hard enough...

 

 

 

As Saoshun is no longer here to throw random insults at people, perhaps you (Taomeow) could in your infinitely more erudite and eloquent way explain a bit of neidan content in the DDJ (i.e. with regard to some specific chapters)?

 

I'd like to hear more too

 

Not sure if you have seen this topic I posted before... but some references may be of interest.

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/26226-the-influence-of-the-ddj-on-later-daoist-practices/

[thelerner]

Is there a particularly alchemical translation anyone can recommend?

 

or particular example from the verses.

Edited April 15, 2015 by thelerner

[Taoist Texts]

I am sorry but what exactly is neidan?

[dust]

I'd like to hear more too

 

Not sure if you have seen this topic I posted before... but some references may be of interest.

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/26226-the-influence-of-the-ddj-on-later-daoist-practices/

 

I think I did see it.. and most likely thought "I'll look through all that later!", and then... never did...

 

But I will...

[Marblehead]

I am sorry but what exactly is neidan?

At its root, inner alchemy.

[dawei]

Is there a particularly alchemical translation anyone can recommend?

 

or particular example from the verses.

 

I've seen some translations by Dr. Yang (Embryonic Breathing book) and they are very alchemic... but only a few chapters.

 

The early translation and commentary by Heshang Gong is as close as it gets.  One english translation which is good is Richard Bertschinger.   

 

See: MyTaoWorld

 

You might have to write him to see if he still sells it. I don't see it here now... let me know if you can't and you're interested in it... I'll try to find it.

[dawei]

I am sorry but what exactly is neidan?

 

You really want to go there? 

 

Too many threads here... but here is one:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/32635-which-is-which-qigong-neigong-waidan-neidan/

[thelerner]

I've seen some translations by Dr. Yang (Embryonic Breathing book) and they are very alchemic... but only a few chapters.

 

The early translation and commentary by Heshang Gong is as close as it gets.  One english translation which is good is Richard Bertschinger.   

 

See: MyTaoWorld

 

You might have to write him to see if he still sells it. I don't see it here now... let me know if you can and you're interested in it... I'll try to find it.

Heck, go to the trouble of writing someone.. i may as well make up my own alchemical version .

and poor reviews wouldn't bother me because I can always agree, It is Lao Sy

[doc benway]

Is there a particularly alchemical translation anyone can recommend?

 

or particular example from the verses.

 

I like the Hu Xuezhi translation

[Taoist Texts]

You really want to go there? 

 

Too many threads here... but here is one:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/32635-which-is-which-qigong-neigong-waidan-neidan/

 

Thanks.  In truth neidan is a misnomer, pretty much like 'daoism' is but here is what the folks mean by 'neidan'  even though they cant put it into so many words, so lets do it for them:

 

For a practice to be neidan or internal alchemy it must include:

1. a secret method - otherwise it would not be a definable practice

2. only ingredients internal to human bodymind - otherwise it would not be internal or NEI

3. transformation and transcendence (immortality and ascendance to Heaven) - otherwise it would not be alchemy.

 

Now normally when ppl say that LZ is neidan they point to the authority of Heshanggong who allegedly commented LZ as such.

 

 

The "Heshang Gong Version" is named after the legendary Heshang Gong (河上公 "Riverside Sage") who supposedly lived during the reign (202–157 BC) of Emperor Wen of Han. This commentary (tr. Erkes 1950) has a preface written by Ge Xuan (葛玄, 164–244 AD), granduncle of Ge Hong, and scholarship dates this version to around the 3rd century AD. 

 

 

However it immediately fails the criterion no. 2 when it recomends  ' to inhale the primal qi through  nose and mouth' 鼻口呼噏喘息，當綿綿微妙，若可存，復若無有. Reliance on external ingredients makes it not neidan.

 

 

Also the neidanists use the cryptic phrase 'a body outside of the body' 外其身而身存 as a proof that HSG was concerned with creation of a yang-body or a spirit-body. Except there is no such phrase. The relevant passage DDJ 7 is normally translated as

 

Therefore the sage puts his own person last, and yet it is found in the foremost place; he treats his person as if it were foreign to him, and yet that person is preserved. Is it not because he has no personal and private ends, that therefore such ends are realised?

 

 

No yang-bodies there. And thats exactly how HSG paraphrases this passage: 'yeld to people, put them first , put yourself last, that's good for you' 是以聖人後其身，先人而後己也

 

In other words, it contains no transformation nor ascendence - therefore it is not alchemy. What it is, is a common sense  longevity manual, devoid of any secret methods, on par with any modern self-help book. Dont worry, breath calmer ,  keep your 'tude humbler, live longer.

[AussieTrees]

.?

Edited July 19, 2016 by AussieTrees

[Marblehead]

Yes, understanding often takes time, sometimes many years.

 

I would have left out the word "stupid" in your post though.  Too many negative connotations with that word.

 

And yes, we can be ignorant but wise.  Knowledge does not necessarily create wisdom.

[Stosh]

Thanks.  In truth neidan is a misnomer, pretty much like 'daoism' is but here is what the folks mean by 'neidan'  even though they cant put it into so many words, so lets do it for them:

 

For a practice to be neidan or internal alchemy it must include:

1. a secret method - otherwise it would not be a definable practice

2. only ingredients internal to human bodymind - otherwise it would not be internal or NEI

3. transformation and transcendence (immortality and ascendance to Heaven) - otherwise it would not be alchemy.

 

Now normally when ppl say that LZ is neidan they point to the authority of Heshanggong who allegedly commented LZ as such.

 

 

 

 

However it immediately fails the criterion no. 2 when it recomends  ' to inhale the primal qi through  nose and mouth' 鼻口呼噏喘息，當綿綿微妙，若可存，復若無有. Reliance on external ingredients makes it not neidan.

 

 

Also the neidanists use the cryptic phrase 'a body outside of the body' 外其身而身存 as a proof that HSG was concerned with creation of a yang-body or a spirit-body. Except there is no such phrase. The relevant passage DDJ 7 is normally translated as

 

Therefore the sage puts his own person last, and yet it is found in the foremost place; he treats his person as if it were foreign to him, and yet that person is preserved. Is it not because he has no personal and private ends, that therefore such ends are realised?

 

 

No yang-bodies there. And thats exactly how HSG paraphrases this passage: 'yeld to people, put them first , put yourself last, that's good for you' 是以聖人後其身，先人而後己也

 

In other words, it contains no transformation nor ascendence - therefore it is not alchemy. What it is, is a common sense  longevity manual, devoid of any secret methods, on par with any modern self-help book. Dont worry, breath calmer ,  keep your 'tude humbler, live longer.

Very neat and understandable, but it looks like you defined neidan as you see it , then excluded Gong based on it.

 

1 )  secret method would depend on whether one was aware of it or not ,

if everyone else was not aware of some tidbit, I dont see how that would change the alchemy of someone who did know about it.

2) there are no ingredients of the bodymind , or,  All is  ingredient of the bodymind since one is not 'apart from ones world'

3) I dont believe in transcendence anyway. 

 

So in terms of definitions and the artificial divisions which exist in the minds of men , its really nice and helpful observation. But thats where it ends.

If Gong was a successful neigong practitioner then your definition goes out the window. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by Stosh

[dawei]

Thanks.  In truth neidan is a misnomer, pretty much like 'daoism' is but here is what the folks mean by 'neidan'  even though they cant put it into so many words, so lets do it for them:

 

For a practice to be neidan or internal alchemy it must include:

1. a secret method - otherwise it would not be a definable practice

2. only ingredients internal to human bodymind - otherwise it would not be internal or NEI

3. transformation and transcendence (immortality and ascendance to Heaven) - otherwise it would not be alchemy.

 

I see HSG more alchemic than neigong/neidan... 

 

I like an attempt to put some boundary to the esoteric neidan.

 

1. We'd have to now define 'secret'.  It seems so much has opened since ancient times... and there was a reason for it being secret.  We see this in other chinese culture of Taiji and Daoism...  what got kept as secret vs what was allowed to be filtered out.   To much has filtered out over time...

 

But I would maybe say this was something originally (selectively and secretly) transmitted master-disciple and usually requires a teacher/master/spirit.

 

2. Nei: Internal... of course.  But it won't be exclusively internal in the end.   As was said, everything is connected and by that it will eventually require connection to a spirit/immortal/deity to do the last purification/light transmission.

 

We can think it is 'internal' and so rightly say it is not about breathing external air, but the internal spirit connects with an external one (but as said, they are not really separate in the end).  If there is no separation in the end, there is no internal.

 

3. I might agree with this but it is the goal but 'many are called and few are choosen'.   And as few will achieve it, it seems that it is really more about Purification.  Those who undertake it, do so to start the cycle towards Transformation /Transcendence.   This would simply be Purification.  If you don't get to Transformation/Transcendence, then you have at least started walking that Road Less Traveled and your next life is that much closer...

 

1. Esoteric Origins: Master-Student transmission   (sometimes the 'master' is a spirit/deity/immortal)

2. Internal Ingredients: Mind-Body-Spirit transmission with Spirit side

3. Goal: Purification towards Transformation/Transcendence

[Taoist Texts]

1. We'd have to now define 'secret'.  It seems so much has opened since ancient times... and there was a reason for it being secret.  We see this in other chinese culture of Taiji and Daoism...  what got kept as secret vs what was allowed to be filtered out.   To much has filtered out over time...

 

But I would maybe say this was something originally (selectively and secretly) transmitted master-disciple and usually requires a teacher/master/spirit.

 

I do enjoy this theme of secrets. What do you think was the reason for secrecy? What did these secrets were?

[dawei]

I do enjoy this theme of secrets. What do you think was the reason for secrecy? What did these secrets were?

 

IMO:

 

I think it grows out of the Xenophobia of the ancient cultures... from that day until today, the derision of the 'foreigner' is still strong among chinese.

 

I think when applied to such things as 'practices', it becomes like a 'best kept secret' which gives one a leg up over a competing group.

 

When applied to more esoteric practices, I think their idea grows stronger as it is a link to the spirits and as such, they are guardians of that teaching, method, way.  It is not meant for everyone and only through some proper transmission/teaching/method will it be properly done.

 

And your perspective?

[Stosh]

I do enjoy this theme of secrets. What do you think was the reason for secrecy? What did these secrets were?

Im just guessing, but I would vindicate secrets in that , 1 people like the illusions they have , 2 telling what most folks arent ready to hear is asking for trouble 3 selfishness ,, but well rationalized self interest- wu wei.