The Laozi as a Manual of Neidan

[Taoist Texts]

I think it grows out of the Xenophobia of the ancient cultures... from that day until today, the derision of the 'foreigner' is still strong among chinese.

Yes thats true. Its a two way street though, the laowais themselves actively reject the true knowledge in favor of simulacra.

 

I think when applied to such things as 'practices', it becomes like a 'best kept secret' which gives one a leg up over a competing group.

True again, especially in medicine and martial arts.

 

 

When applied to more esoteric practices, I think their idea grows stronger as it is a link to the spirits and as such, they are guardians of that teaching, method, way.  It is not meant for everyone and only through some proper transmission/teaching/method will it be properly done.

 

And your perspective?

Here things become complicated. Leaving aside the small arts and crafts like rituals and magic, where the above reasons apply; and turning to the teaching of the Great Dao we encounter a paradox.

 

On one hand the teachers of Great Dao in theory are supposed to selflessly save all leaving beings through their methods; on the other hand they are secretive about these methods. Why?

 

First of all there are the fake teachers - they are secretive in order to extract as much money as possible from students before being exposed as fakes.

 

Secondly, the true teachers convey the methods through use of metaphors which may seem like secrecy but is really not. Its a teaching device to induce realization.

 

And thirdly, there really are no secrets. The texts are extremely detailed, clear and numerous. Its just almost no one is destined to read them. Its the old rule in action:  Students are therefore as many as hair on a cow's skin, but those who achieved immortaliy as rare as a unicorn's (qilin 麒麟) horn.

[dawei]

I do agree about the first point of western conceit... that they know everything or want to interpret it in their way sometimes in such a way that it misses the original, real meaning...  so the third point is the most interesting one to flesh out.

 

Here things become complicated. Leaving aside the small arts and crafts like rituals and magic, where the above reasons apply; and turning to the teaching of the Great Dao we encounter a paradox.

 

On one hand the teachers of Great Dao in theory are supposed to selflessly save all leaving beings through their methods; on the other hand they are secretive about these methods. Why?

 

I see a paradox in this... if one were really a teacher of Great Dao, wouldn't they have the insight into the person coming to learn and thus know who to teach and not to teach?  Maybe that contains a bit of secrecy as if you decided not to teach someone, you have withheld it which goes against selflessly save all.

 

First of all there are the fake teachers - they are secretive in order to extract as much money as possible from students before being exposed as fakes.

 

That's always going to happen... in all walks of life

 

Secondly, the true teachers convey the methods through use of metaphors which may seem like secrecy but is really not. Its a teaching device to induce realization.

 

Good point and I agree. Sometimes direct apprehension is good (or needed) and sometimes other methods work better to induce realization.  And metaphor within chinese culture is a given but to anyone 'outside', it seems like a puzzle.

 

And thirdly, there really are no secrets. The texts are extremely detailed, clear and numerous. Its just almost no one is destined to read them. Its the old rule in action:  Students are therefore as many as hair on a cow's skin, but those who achieved immortaliy as rare as a unicorn's (qilin 麒麟) horn.

 

I generally agree that the texts are simply giving away the secrets for the most part, but one may not be able to unravel it.  Nice quote from Baopuzi

 

I once read Pregadio state that another author had the best english translation of the Cantong qi (The Seal of the Unity of the Three), but without explanation of the symbolism it remains almost meaningless to the reader.

[Taoist Texts]

I see a paradox in this... if one were really a teacher of Great Dao, wouldn't they have the insight into the person coming to learn and thus know who to teach and not to teach?  

 

Yes they will. This is how it went for a certain Uncle Qi:

 

路过仙留镇，闻有齐丈人者，乃成道之人；丈人亦与龛谷老人同学道于梁仙人。丈人少读诗书，秉性鲁纯，未得梁仙人实惠，因其老实志诚，梁仙人曾将丈人托于樊、徐二翁，令其指点。其后樊老人西游，丈人听徐公指教，同住汉南十余年，磨炼百般，受尽无数苦楚，终无所得，知其法缘未至，遂离汉南，赴甘肃访人。

苦尽甜来，兰州阿干镇，得遇喇嘛余丈人。余丈人系西宁沙唐川人，曾为喇嘛僧；转生七世，未迷本来，得遇异人，授以性命大道，遂了其事。此时余丈人俗妆游戏，齐丈人亦不识。余丈人猛呼齐丈人曰：「尔是甚人？所作甚事？」

齐丈人曰：「出家人乞化。」

余丈人又问曰：「止是乞化，到底还有别事否？」

齐丈人曰：「还求出家事务，非止乞化而已。」

余丈人曰：「既是如此，可脱道衣扮俗人，随吾去。」

齐丈人始知为异人。遂更换衣冠跟随，游西宁、凉州、甘州、肃州，二年而得事。于此余丈人深隐，不知所终。

(张阳志《素朴师云游记》)

 

there is a certain Uncle Qi there who have accomplished Dao; and that Qi and Kan-gu studied Dao under same saint Liang. Qi have not read many books, and was quite dumb by nature, so he could not make use of Liang’s teachings, but due to his honesty and sincerity, saint Liang ordered two older students Fang and Xu to give guidance to Qi. After Fan have left for the west, Qi studied under Xu, and resided with him for more than 10 years, he practiced studiously in a hundreds of ways, took any possible hardship, yet could not obtain anything. From this he understood that it is not his karma yet, so he left Hannan, and went to Gansu on a visit.

 

As they say ‘the bitterness ended, the sweetness have come’ for him, when in Lanzhou, city of Agan, he met a lama (a Tibetan monk) Yu. Elder Yu was from Xīníng, at one point in the past he was a lama monk, then he reincarnated after 7 generations without losing his essential personality, and have met an unusual person, from whom he obtained the great Dao of Xing-Ming, upon which he completed his work (reached sainthood). At that time elder Yu amused himself living under a mundane guise, so he was not recognized by Qi either.

Yu however, startled Qi with questioning: who are you? On what business?

Qi replied: I left home (became a monk), beg food here.

Yu asked again: and if not begging, would there be something for you to do or not?

Qi answered: what is there for a monk to do? Just to beg and that’s it.

Elder Yu said: well, if so, then you can shed your Taoist clothes, dress like a layman and come with me.

Qi, beginning to understand that this is an unusual man, changed his clothes and went traveling with Yu to Xining, Liangzhou, Ganzhou, Suzhou and finished understanding the alchemical work in 2 years. After that Yu went into hiding and it is not known where he ended up. 

[dust]

The only reason I can fathom for a supposedly 'good' person to make a process that could be 'beneficial' to others a secret is that said process is bullshit.

[dust]

That was intended to be provocative. A bit more than I really believe.

 

But generally, if I have a technique that improves well-being, why am I keeping it secret?

 

To make my enemies jealous? Why do I have enemies?

Because I enjoy having a secret all to myself? Why should I?

Because I don't believe others should benefit from my expertise?

Edited April 16, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Taomeow]

I've not been heavily involved in any particular discussion on this before.

 

My mind is open, though I admit am sceptical that certain chapters could be interpreted in this way.

 

Also, as TT suggested, anything can be a metaphor for neidan anything if you look hard enough...

 

 

 

As Saoshun is no longer here to throw random insults at people, perhaps you (Taomeow) could in your infinitely more erudite and eloquent way explain a bit of neidan content in the DDJ (i.e. with regard to some specific chapters)?

 

Thank you for trusting MHO. 

 

To get a chapter in terms of internal alchemy, one needs to already have a basic handle on internal alchemy and its extensive symbology.  I wasn't kidding when I said "meta-text and context" -- TTC does not give you neidan from scratch, it relies on the already-in-existence operators of this field, it does not invent it -- rather, it encapsulates it.  One could represent, say, War And Peace in the format of a comic book, reducing each chapter to quick sketches and brief captions --  think of TTC as a comic book made out of the meta-text of neidan. Thus, to start with a chapter would be too extensive -- for each of them really stands for a much bigger one.   So to illustrate what I mean, let me give a try to just one line.

 

"Know the white but keep (to) the black."  This is logistics of a certain neidan process, part of Kan-Li interactions.  "White" has its symbology:  it is related to the West; Guan Ping, who became the god of war, Guan-di, is represented with a white face; white is the color of the cosmic autumn and stands for old "tired" qi; in the ancient tradition of Chinese theater, personages with white faces signify people who are cunning and treacherous; one should never wear anything white in one's hair, as it is very unlucky; "pure white" is an expression that means "virginity"; men are said to "wash themselves pure white" when they are castrated.  The purity of white is thought of as alchemically sterile.  White is the color associated with the phase of Metal, and Metal is controlled by Fire -- so introducing "pure white" practices into Kan-Li processes is not efficient, because Li will overcome the white.  

 

Black, on the other hand, is associated with the North, Water, a salty taste (the salt composition of the amniotic fluid is identical to that of ocean water), and as a symbol stands for darkness (not "enlightenment" but "endarkenment"), and honor.  On stage, eight heroes with blackened faces represent men who are honorable.  Black-Water controls Fire, so Kan-Li interactions must rely on these forces, since Li will obey the black.    

 

"Know the white" -- the world of the visible, in-the-light, manifest -- "white" is the symbol of breathable air (Metal phase), but in the alchemical process, kick-start the "black," the invisible, unmanifest -- "black" is the symbol of the amniotic fluid you breathed before you were born (Water phase).  And so on.  And so forth.  Even this one line is inexhaustible, I've just given a glimpse.     

Edited April 16, 2015 by Taomeow

[thelerner]

Is there a particularly alchemical translation anyone can recommend?

 

 

I like the Hu Xuezhi translation

That looks really good.  The book lays out a complete cosmology based on the DDC.  Nice.

[Taoist Texts]

That was intended to be provocative. A bit more than I really believe.

 

But generally, if I have a technique that improves well-being, why am I keeping it secret?

 

To make my enemies jealous? Why do I have enemies?

Because I enjoy having a secret all to myself? Why should I?

Because I don't believe others should benefit from my expertise?

you are close. 'others' will not benefit. 'one in a million of others' might.

[Taomeow]

Secrets are kept for any number of reasons, but the main one is, that's how nature does it.  Things that are a work in progress, not ready to be exposed, it hides.  E.g. a fetus.  A seed in the ground.  An oak tree in an acorn.  

 

Ultrasonic scanning for pregnant women was created by the human mind, not by the mind of tao.  Tao only reveals the secrets of gestation to the gestating. 

 

Taoist internal alchemy is aiming at, and therefore models itself on, the mind of tao.  The gaping hipster dufus has never been its audience, nor ever will be.    

[dust]

OK. Your explanation makes sense (as far as this gaping hipster can understand it)

 

Are you suggesting that every chapter can be interpreted thusly? Or a select few?

[Taomeow]

I didn't mean you personally, I just felt like quoting an old TV show character who defined his friend in this manner, someone who was always very knowledgeable about all things and very logical and helpful in his analysis -- like many people I know in real and virtual life. 

 

 

As for whether every chapter can be interpreted thusly -- I don't know, most probably, but I haven't tried analyzing them all in sequence, I usually go for what jumps out at me.  E.g. Chapter 15 -- describing what the sages of old were like on the surface -- became a taiji practice manual when my practice got to a place of "getting it" kinesthetically, and then went into the alchemical subtext with taiji neigong.  And the one about "followers of life and followers of death" -- that's the quick overview of taoist numerology and astrology as they pertain to neidan.  But I'm no expert on Laozi, I go to the meta-text only occasionally.  I'm on a quest for the text. 

[dust]

I didn't really think you were taking aim at me as a hipster dufus I'm not sure what qualifies as hipster but pretty sure I'm just a plain old dufus!

 

Yes, the chapters you mention are a couple I've had the most trouble understanding.

[Ish]

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Edited July 26, 2016 by Ish

[Daeluin]

In the second part of The Inner Teachings of Taoism, Solving Symbolic Language, Thomas Cleary translates Liu Yiming's thorough explanation of the symbolism used in just about every neidan text. He basically tracks the primordial as it unfolds in a new life, as parts divide and separate and conditioning leads to separation and stagnation and ultimately death... and then he shows how the process of the return works, how to unite what is separated back into a harmonious flow that is refined and gradually the parts of that were separated become indistinguishable from each other and return back into a primordial state.

 

Those who know, don't speak; those who speak, don't know.

  Because speaking is leaking - to be whole, one cannot leak.

 

To learn the whole one needs to find the answers within - if I draw the answers all about your person, you'll only be focused on looking at yourself from the outside-in, not the inside-out. So often teachers do not cater to direct questions - their answer however is very direct, as it leads to emptiness, and emptiness lies in the heart of things. Emptiness comes when Jing, Qi and Shen are united back into oneness. As the student attempts to understand this mysterious answer, the student begins to focus their intention on guarding unity.

 

Further, a master and student are connected by a lineage - a transfer of energy. The work we do in dissolving patterns and healing our imbalances is said to influence our blood-based lineage 7 generations forward and back. Too, the choices we make in applying what we have been taught by a particular teacher will influence their own karmic patterns. Then there are ways of sharing that produce a different strength in connection between the student and teacher, and then ways of sharing that are very open and public, or very hidden.

 

As one gets to deeper layers within the return, the subtle influences created by ties to the world become more important, and so those who's cultivation has gone to the deeper reaches are more likely to be more hidden - they might walk right by you in plain sight, but you would only see what they show you.

 

The secret of the golden flower emphasizes the technique of turning around the light of the mind. And chapter 5 of the daode jing shares the method of the bellows - the bellows breathes in one way only, brining oxygen to stoke the flames. This principle is also used by neidan - which does use the external, at least until one has reached a stage where we no longer need to breathe.

 

The daode jing may not always use the terminology of neidan, but much of the neidan symbolism may have originated after the daode jing was written, as an elaboration of the root concepts into more specialized language. However, by deeply understanding the concepts of this specialized language, it becomes much easier to uncover these layers of the daode jing.

[PLB]

The daodejing speaks a lot about the difficulty of talking about things. So it makes talking about practice a part of that problem.

On the other hand, there are many elements that need work. And one just has to get to work.