Can we change the title of the pit?

[Songtsan]

I'm not attached to this place. I have seen through appearances enough to know that there is something just not quite right about this site. I think that it is corrupted by greed, propaganda, and is a place that has sold its soul.

 

I feel sorry for the folks who spend their energy here, seeking a place of safety and security, only to be told they are not good enough, that they just don't fit.

 

Honestly, I think this place has been taken over by people with selfish intentions...

 

There is so much more to it than I can say.

 

Suffice to say, I think that I was mislead about what this community was really about.

 

I am going to go somewhere where there is a body of individuals who truly understand compassion and what it means to provide a place to heal. 

 

I've spent my whole life training with healers and teachers who had true hearts and I don't see that among the mods here.

 

I know good people when I see them...and I know when people are presenting false fronts.

 

I'm going to officially opt out and if you want to make it all nice and groovy, please ban me permanently and forever more.

 

I came for support and got shitted upon in my darkest times when I needed support. This is no community of healers, it's a False Front.

 

I've been close to killing myself very often in these last few years and people here have shown that they have no knowledge of bodhichitta...I think that the truth will always reveal itself in the end.

[Daeluin]

The Pit is simply not treated right. It's growth is being curtailed by fear and aversion. it's very name is an attempt to avoid the bitter dregs of Reality. In order to completely accept reality, you must eat it all. You must see, hear, smell, taste, feel, and experience the EVIL/DARK/YIN/CHAOS parts of the world in order to understand it. Never shrink from the face that you see in front of you, be it yourself or someone else, including me. If you reject, you automatically create an equal and opposite reaction in another, but you also simultaneously create an equal rejection of your own self, for all selves are all the same. This is in accords with Daoist principles.

 

Yes, and let us remember that our moderators tend to remind people when a thread is headed to a pit, encouraging the discussion to refine its stagnant elements and recover balance and harmony. Sometimes the opening of a new thread is instantly deemed as something that will only create a type of energy that will only stagnate and conflict, and thus, regardless of it's true nature it might head directly for the pit.

 

The very fact that we keep our stagnant threads in a home instead of simply deleting them indicates our acceptance of these issues.

 

The idea of a pit is very linked to taoist understanding as well. K'an, the trigam known as water, actually translates to "pit," and represents the dynamic by which we allow our primordial energy to get sucked into and wrapped about to create a new layer, even as light is created by the emptiness which is replaced by the exchange within the heart of that primordial energy, creating the trigam known as fire, Li, which actually means separation, representing the heart of the primordial energy that has been separated from it.

 

If you find yourself fallen into a pit in life, yes by all means please realize this is where much sacred energy exists in a sadly separated stagnation, pushed away by the world - but please remember, the way to cleanse this energy is to bring it back into the light - this is something we cannot force others to do with threads that end up in the pit, as controlling others only creates more postcelestial layers, but something that each of us CAN do when we find ourselves dwelling in the pit of life. With balance, all things may cleansed of the layers of conditioning they have acquired and return to a balanced, primordial state.

[Daeluin]

Songtsan, one daoist principle that may be helpful for you is that of understanding extremes.

 

Your recently pitted thread Fuck the Gods was posted while you were high, and being high tends to shift our energy to a strong extreme, one that ignites xing even as it lacks the proper balance of cultivated ming required to contain it - and so this ignited xing flies away even as we feel "high." It takes us time to replenish that energy, and so immediately afterward we experience a low, usually one that leads us to getting high again and again so we can escape the low, even as we further deplete any xing we have cultivated.

 

There's nothing wrong with any of that - except the patten of extreme imbalance it causes us. By leading extreme ebbs and flows in our lives we imprint this extreme-followed-by-extreme pattern upon the momentum of our life, and that momentum is going to keep going up and down even after we eliminate the chemical elements that might make us high or low. Here you are finding cause to leave the forums, but perhaps you are just seeing what you want to see, based on the trend your momentum is leading your towards. Thus one of the main aspects of cultivation is that of smoothing out the extremes of our life, through practice of gradual progress.

 

When we are on the brink of a change in our momentum that historically wants to jump off a cliff, often we don't really want to follow, but find we don't have much of a choice. The most difficult thing for us to do is resist the tidal tug of that momentum by maintaining equanimity - the strength of our equanimity much match the strength of the extreme. But if we are able to accomplish this, then when that historical momentum calms back down again, we will feel much more connected to who we really are and in control of our lives.

 

Not saying any of this applies to you at all, as I don't really know you at all. Just a couple things you mentioned led me to post this, following my intuition. Perhaps it will help someone, perhaps no one, and that is fine with me. Peace.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Daeluin

[Songtsan]

Also, I think that the law of opposite but equal reaction applies here - if you push a wall, the wall also pushes back at you - basic physics there

 

In feeling rejected with my thread, I in turn had the opposite/equal reaction to reject you (mods, whatever)

 

I have seen this play out here before with other sensitive individuals who had qigong illness, kundalini fire, etc.

 

these people usually become like mirrors - reflecting the energies they perceive back to the sender (irregardless of the chance that the perceived rejection was a delusional percept)

 

As I have stated before, I wanted to be able to show my soft underbelly to folks right out in the open - express my angst in public with the intent to ask for healing.

 

Many indigenous cultures had a space for this

 

In various spiritualist practices, including Voudon Gnostics, the act of allowing the darker entities to possess one is considered a healthy way to release pent up demons - the demons become expressed in public and the person achieves great healing

 

This is in fact also part of the Christian Deliverance Ministry - you go up before the congregation and allow the demons to manifest before all and you admit their presence in you and how it was a choice you made (perhaps a generational sin passed down)

 

I know that the Shamanistic Bon religion had some stuff similar to this.

 

A study of the Mahasiddhas and Crazy Wisdom masters will also show that these things have been being done for countless generations

 

Taobums seems to have a space for everything EXCEPT crazy wisdom

 

Crazy wisdom isn't something that you know, it is something that you do/are

 

those who haven't walked the path often cannot recognize its beauty and elegance

 

Grace exists within all things, even the ugliest of the ugliest

 

Seeing beyond dualities of acceptable/unacceptable only can lead to Nirvana in Samsara

 

Its just been a major failure of this board that those who are undergoing the intense spiritual fire and are emanating destructive aspects of nature haven't been validated.

 

I wish I could give you my understanding for just a second, but alas that is too difficult

 

I've seen too many worthy individuals alienated from this community.

 

I think there is a better solution

 

Far be it for me to try to shape that which resists being shaped however.

 

Daobums just seems a little cliquish nowadays

 

Surrounding yourself with people that make you feel comfortable because they are just like you is healthy to some extent, but if you can't deal with averse situations and turn lemons into lemonade, you will never escape the wheel.

 

A little controversy is good for the soul.

 

Pampered pets become fat and lazy

 

You guys are always welcome to constructively criticize me, just try not to label me.

 

I wasn't trying to start a flame war or anything

[dawei]

Taobums seems to have a space for everything EXCEPT crazy wisdom

 

If it has a spiritual thought or practice, that is General Discussion

 

If it is anything on your mind, that is Off-Topic

 

If it is healing requests, it is Healing Circle

 

if it is a blog of anything one wants to say, it is the PPD

 

I feel your a bit too focused on the PIT which has been explained what its function is.

 

To stay out of the Pit, it just needs to have some fore-thought in titling and posting.

[dawei]

Ok... How about "Chaos" ?   

 

 

Hundun 混沌 was semantically extended from a mythic "primordial chaos; nebulous state of the universe before heaven and earth separated" to mean "unintelligible; chaotic; messy; mentally dense; innocent as a child".

 

Semantically, the term hundun is related to several expressions, hardly translatable in Western languages, that indicate the void or a barren and primal immensity – for instance, hunlun 混淪, hundong 混洞, kongdong 空洞, menghong 蒙洪, or hongyuan 洪元. It is also akin to the expression "something confused and yet complete" (huncheng 混成) found in the Daode jing 25, which denotes the state prior to the formation of the world where nothing is perceptible, but which nevertheless contains a cosmic seed. Similarly, the state of hundun is likened to an egg; in this usage, the term alludes to a complete world round and closed in itself, which is a receptacle like a cavern (dong 洞) or a gourd (hu 壺or hulu 壺盧)

[Songtsan]

So was it just the form of the thread, the use of swear words, etc.?

 

I must admit that:

 

1) I am in the midst of a relationship breakup

2) I am detoxing from quitting sugars and doing an anti-candida regimen

3) I am also doing an anti-parasite regimen at the same time (oregano oil, black walnut shells, garlic, neem and more)

4) I am quitting my anti-depressant, which while it does help, also makes me extremely nauseous and kills my appetite and sex drive

5) I am quitting alcohol and marijuana

 

Doing all this at once - not for the faint of heart!

 

If I became irritable and extreme, it is probably due to detox effects and inflammation in the brain from the toxic substances being released

[dawei]

I would say it included:

 

1. Title... says it all

2. Content... repeated and ranted on title theme

3. Curse words abounding...  directly pointing to the reader (seemingly at times, although may not be intended)

4. The history of your posting... I can't expect mods to chase down any 'trip' like posting which gets out of hand.

 

For all of these reasons, the Pit was the best place to let it continue and not worry about the above.   As well, those who were replying were very much engaged in the exchange and that felt like it would carry the warm/healing it needed instead of locking it.

 

I will say that staff has taken a slightly new direction in regards to posts:

 

We are trying not to lock anything started by members without really, really strong cause.

 

Instead, we'll consider to lock only to let stuff cool off and re-open... or split out content... or move threads...

 

SO THEY CAN CONTINUE. 

 

Is that so selfish and corrupt?  I don't think so... I think it is a way to let expression continue and we just find the best place for it.   We may not get that correct all the time, but there is a method to our madness

[Songtsan]

I will admit that I was being paranoid - see, I have had life-long paranoia since forever (genetic). I did no drugs whatsoever until I was almost 19....no cigarettes, alcohol, weed, or anything except sugar.

 

I have had extreme moments like this all my life...when I was in third grade I remember breaking down in tears saying, "Nobody likes me!"

 

My hypervigilance, exaggerated startle response, excessive fight/flight response are all like this

[Songtsan]

So basically everything becomes exaggeratedx10 - rejection of small parts of me feels like a rejection of the whole....I know that nobody here rejects me on the whole....everybody rejects small parts of people all the time, except for truly realized beings who have transcended dualistic thinking.

 

Black/white thinking is a huge cause of suffering.

 

While I do like being hypomanic, it has its downsides when one becomes so convinced of ones belief system that one deludes oneself into thinking that everyone else is against you.

 

Hypomania (which perhaps could be likened to excessive Yang in the head?) leads to egomania, megalomania, or just plain mania all around.

 

Those who have the tendency of letting passion flow through them unchecked, due to the sheer bliss of it, become demons.....Righteousness is like this.

 

While people who have mania can often be very charasmatic (think Hitler, etc.), the extreme energies which pour out of them infect others like a virus.

 

I betcha Hitler had some level of Shaktipat - just really bad Shaktipat...

 

Shaktipat being the ability to extend your emotional body outwards to infect others emotional bodies

 

If a true saint has this ability, then hell yeah hang out with them, but if a polluted person (polluted in this case meaning someone with power hungry, control motivated agendas) has this ability then its not so good.

 

I've studied Swami Muktananda a lot and it turns out that although he was a strong vector of his Shakti, he was polluted sexually, and many devotees that received Shaktipat from him actually had to share in his karma...

 

I actually have the ability to give Shaktipat and have since about 2000....I have done it in person and over the internet, without trying

 

I have basically become a vector for the Shakti, but I have very polluted energies of a deviant sexual nature which passed to me through the people that molested me.

 

Demons are real. They are desires.

 

Desires aren't bad or good ultimately, they are just form/illusions, yet there are desires which lead to negative (socially unacceptable) karma, and vice versa

[dawei]

Renamed:  Hùndùn 混沌 - Primordial Chaos

 

Posts sent to a nebulous state of TDB before heaven and earth. It is chaos for some and returning home for others. 

[thelerner]

The only problem I have with the Pit is that we cannot start new threads in that sub-forum.  (I think that is still a restriction.)

This was experimented with for awhile.  I think it failed because in many cases the Pit is a polite way to say you've gone too far and/or broken forum rules/etiquette.   People who had threads thrown into the pit started them there and it became a flame war hotspot that the forum tries to avoid. 

 

 

 

<add The WWW subforum here gives the OP author more control over the direction of there thread.

Edited April 16, 2015 by thelerner

[thelerner]

Just throwing this out.. I'd prefer keeping it The Pit or Wasteland or the like.  I'm worry the Chaos name will attract more attention and pride in comments sent into it.  Songstan's right in that words have power and I wouldn't want to lose The Pit's main function to tell members that comments are getting out of line.

[dawei]

Just throwing this out.. I'd prefer keeping it The Pit or Wasteland or the like.  I'm worry the Chaos name will attract more attention and pride in comments sent into it.  Songstan's right in that words have power and I wouldn't want to lose The Pit's main function to tell members that comments are getting out of line.

 

Yes, 'what's in a name' may matter at times... the area still cannot start a topic and the rules remain the same.

 

I would tend to think that the members know why stuff ends up in the pit.

 

But, also with the newer direction that topics should not be closed (in theory), it seems in line to change the name a little bit.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Just throwing this out.. I'd prefer keeping it The Pit or Wasteland or the like.  I'm worry the Chaos name will attract more attention and pride in comments sent into it.  Songstan's right in that words have power and I wouldn't want to lose The Pit's main function to tell members that comments are getting out of line. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

This is a very good point.  Hun Dun is rather the primordial source rather then then the "pit", which is the end point of rebellious and to avoid confusion with the presently overly romanticized "chaos", anti-harmony forces of the universe.  Its cultural inspiration was Tartarus, the abode to which the Titans were banished.

 

I have kind of followed this discussion and agreed to a certain extent with some of Songstan's original points, but had not had time to really think about the matter.  I would like to propose "the Phantom Zone":

 

The Phantom Zone was discovered by Jor-El and used on the planet Krypton as a method of imprisoning criminals. Previously, criminals were punished by being sealed into capsules and rocketed into orbit in suspended animation with crystals attached to their foreheads to slowly erase their criminal tendencies; Klax-Ar was one criminal who received this punishment but escaped. Gra-Mo was the last to suffer the punishment, for it was then abolished in favor of the Zone.

 

The inmates of the Phantom Zone reside in a ghost-like state of existence from which they can observe, but cannot interact with, the regular universe . . .

 

used close to this original sense, though in this case it is the "crimes" and not the "criminals" that are banished.  It keeps a somewhat negative connotation and also, most of these disagreements are chasing phantoms of one sort or another.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Somewhat rushed I forgot to link the "the Phantom Zone" reference above with its Wikipedia source.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Zhongyongdaoist

[dawei]

This is a very good point.  Hun Dun is rather the primordial source rather then then the "pit", which is the end point of rebellious and to avoid confusion with the presently overly romanticized "chaos", anti-harmony forces of the universe.  Its cultural inspiration was Tartarus, the abode to which the Titans were banished.

 

I have kind of followed this discussion and agreed to a certain extent with some of Songstan's original points, but had not had time to really think about the matter.  I would like to propose "the Phantom Zone":

 

 

used close to this original sense, though in this case it is the "crimes" and not the "criminals" that are banished.  It keeps a somewhat negative connotation and also, most of these disagreements are chasing phantoms of one sort or another.

 

That seems interesting... but would there be a more chinese/daoist equivalent?   

 

Sean has been taking the site towards more chinese character representation... so I'm trying to stay somewhat consistent to that.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

How about:

 

In Chinese ancestor worship 鬼法界, 鬼界 is "the realm of hungry ghosts" (Wikipedia on "hungry ghosts")

 

This is Chinese and would have many of the characteristics of the Phantom Zone.  Perhaps "phantom zone" could be kept in the description, as a cultural metaphor it is very descriptive.  So something like this:

 

The Realm of Hungry Ghosts, a "phantom zone" of sorts where threads that do not conform to the Dao are banished for penitentiary reflection.  Feeding these ghosts is not recommended.  Enter at your own risk.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Added the sentences beginning with "Feeding these ghosts . . . "

Edited April 17, 2015 by Zhongyongdaoist

[Songtsan]

Just throwing this out.. I'd prefer keeping it The Pit or Wasteland or the like.  I'm worry the Chaos name will attract more attention and pride in comments sent into it.  Songstan's right in that words have power and I wouldn't want to lose The Pit's main function to tell members that comments are getting out of line.

 

But how can we honor the fact that someone meant no ill intent, was just being themself in a way that is culturally appropriate for them, and was still told they were no good?

 

The intent behind something is important.

 

If the form that the intent was expressed through is unappealing, remember that attachment to forms is the root cause of suffering.

 

There must be a more enlightened way.

 

Otherwise it seems that there is a type of forced change from an within-group culture which is attempting to expand its control.

 

To have a forum that states that it is egalitarian be too PC is against the way of nature...

 

are you going to say that a bear doesn't belong just because bears are grumpy animals sometimes?

 

In honoring the nature of others, we also honor ourselves.

[dawei]

How about:

 

 

This is Chinese and would have many of the characteristics of the Phantom Zone.  Perhaps "phantom zone" could be kept in the description, as a cultural metaphor it is very descriptive.  So something like this:

 

The Realm of Hungry Ghosts, a "phantom zone" of sorts where threads that do not conform to the Dao are banished for penitentiary reflection.  Feeding these ghosts is not recommended.  Enter at your own risk.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Added the sentences beginning with "Feeding these ghosts . . . "

 

I will say that I find this an apt metaphor for a topic which has 'died' and yet folks can go give offerings (post to a 'dead' topic) and the dead can return (to post in the regular areas once again). 

 

But "feeding is not recommended" is not consistent with the idea of the hungry ghosts; they need to be offered food (thoughtful posts) to encourage returning to the living (posting areas).   

 

It would only be consistent with treating the Pit/Chaos/Ghost Realm like it was a Trolling Realm.   

 

In light of trying to keep topics open, more topics may end up in this area rather than just getting closed.  So it is just the place for something to continue... and probably some which we wish would not continue.  But that is up to whether folks want to give offerings to dead topics or not.

[Marblehead]

Actually, I think moderation has been doing a great job at splitting threads that fet way too far off topic or whatever, leaving the thread active but moving those posts that have distracted from the thread topic to the Pit (Primordial Chaos) so that any of the off topic concepts can still be spoken to should anyone want to continue the discussion.

 

I do realize that doing this takes time and I acknowledge the efforts of all involved.  Great job!!!

[Songtsan]

I also mentioned before that the left-hand path is often a dark and scary ride, and that practitioners of it can seem weird or strange to those who choose the right hand paths.

 

"People are strange, when you're a stranger."

 

At the root level of Self, all beings are divine, even the strange and scary ones - emanations of God through the unlimited forms.

 

In approaching that place of fearlessness and non-aversion, we must prove our mettle.

 

To limit things to only 'proper etiquette,' etc. seems to be handicapping growth. If you have a tree growing in your yard and you don't like the look of one whole limb of it, to cut it off because you think it's ugly is spiteful. The tree didn't give a shit that you liked or didn't like it, it just wanted more space to make leaves to collect sunlight.

 

There is a balance to all this. I am sensitive yet strong, I can handle having my limbs chopped off if they are festering and holding me back. I always invite 'careful pruning.'

 

If there is no opportunity to enter the spiritual fire, then how do we burn our ego dross?

 

Attempts to make everything bright and shiny can backfire and create stagnation.

 

An apt metaphor would be someone who chooses not to physically exercise because it is uncomfortable. You might be comfy in the short term just loafing about watching TV, but in the long run you will be ill.

 

Short term gain, long term pain.

 

How about the name, "The Dark Side"

 

where it is understood that, 'dark' means 'not well understood' (i.e. things are strange when you are ignorant of what they are about)

 

Personally, I think that banning Deci Belle, myself, or any of the other 'creepy critters' that people can't handle is not the way.

 

There is no magical garbage pit out there which you can throw waste into....if you don't deal with the waste by transforming it into something that can be used, it will not magically disappear.

 

So much wisdom lost due to aversion and attachment to forms is a sad thing.

 

Note that there is a flip side to every coin, and that my aversion to being 'aversed to' is also ridiculous in some ways...

 

I do remember an interesting story I read once of two Taoists having a conversation. One man was waxing philosophical about trigrams and elements and all kinds of stuff, and the other would just answer with a fart or a grunt. Both were masters.

 

When Buddha held up the Lotus flower and the one guy smiled (Sariputra? or somesuch name), he could just as easily held up a severed head and the same message could have been said.

 

What difference lies there between that which is deemed beautiful and that which is deemed ugly? Form is the difference. Function can be the same. If function is the same, then the object is at root the same, as appearances are illusions.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Songtsan

[dawei]

Personally, I think that banning Deci Belle, myself, or any of the other 'creepy critters' that people can't handle is not the way.

 

If you asked people if they would like to lose their job... they see no "next step" in sight. It is fearful.

 

In fact, then ask them a year later and they will tell you it was the best thing that ever happened to them.

 

So much self-awareness and general understand come once we are forced out of the cage we build; the cage we call life.

 

I am not trying to justify anything but there is a point of disassociation to suggest what is the way and what is not.

[Songtsan]

Good point

[Daeluin]

How about:

 

 

This is Chinese and would have many of the characteristics of the Phantom Zone.  Perhaps "phantom zone" could be kept in the description, as a cultural metaphor it is very descriptive.  So something like this:

 

The Realm of Hungry Ghosts, a "phantom zone" of sorts where threads that do not conform to the Dao are banished for penitentiary reflection.  Feeding these ghosts is not recommended.  Enter at your own risk.

 

Hexagram 56, Fire over Mountain, represents temporary phases one might encounter when traveling. Each new situation we find ourselves in as we travel requires different, temporary conduct of ourselves as guests.

 

Reading the Wilhelm/Baynes Image:

 

 

Fire on the mountain:

The image of THE WANDERER.

Thus the superior man

Is clear-minded and cautious

In imposing penalties,

And protracts no lawsuits.

 

When grass on a mountain takes fire, there is bright light. However, the fire does not linger in one place, but travels on to new fuel. It is a phenomenon of short duration. This is what penalties and lawsuits should be like. They should be a quickly passing matter, and must not be dragged out indefinitely. Prisons ought to be places where people are lodged only temporarily, as guests are. They must not become dwelling places.

 

However, our "Pit" is very much a place of permanent residence, and this is a difficult obstacle to overcome in our situation, and does indicate a lack of circular flow. But what can be done?

 

All in all I greatly appreciate the subtle, ever moving nature of these forums. While maintaining consistency and stability, there are gradual changes according to the times. Nothing should ever become fixed, and I have a lot of respect for dawei flowing with the invitation to explore the situation and being open to make changes.

[dawei]

Hexagram 56, Fire over Mountain, represents temporary phases one might encounter when traveling. Each new situation we find ourselves in as we travel requires different, temporary conduct of ourselves as guests.

 

However, our "Pit" is very much a place of permanent residence, and this is a difficult obstacle to overcome in our situation, and does indicate a lack of circular flow. But what can be done?

 

All in all I greatly appreciate the subtle, ever moving nature of these forums. While maintaining consistency and stability, there are gradual changes according to the times. Nothing should ever become fixed, and I have a lot of respect for dawei flowing with the invitation to explore the situation and being open to make changes.

 

 But the fact is, every forum area is permanent in the sense that most topics are expected to remain permanently where the start...  Even the Pit/Chaos has a place we can remove threads to... The Abyss.

 

I would instead focus on the member... free to wander among the forum... the topics/posts are simply left around here and there.  Some, like the ancestors, go to their grave where folks can continue to leave offerings if they want...