T.T.C. Chapter 74

[3bob]

I haven't seen this chapter mentioned as much as some of the others but I've been interested in it along the lines of possible and multiple levels of meaning,  say starting on the human level related to interactions among us and then proceeding to levels beyond our normal recognition or perception... what do you hear it pointing to?

 

74.
WHEN the people are no longer afraid of death,
Why scare them with the spectre of death?

If you could make the people always afraid of death,
And they still persisted in breaking the law,
Then you might with reason arrest and execute them,
And who would dare to break the law?

Is not the Great Executor always there to kill?
To do the killing for the Great Executor
Is to chop wood for a master carpenter,
And you would be lucky indeed if you did not hurt
  your own hand!

[Marblehead]

I've read your post.  I'll wait for others to speak first.  Yes, many levels/concepts here.

[thelerner]

I get.. make laws too strict and you'll end up cutting yourself.  Thus following the themes of subtle persuasion and fewer laws. 

[dust]

I see you've put this in Daoist Discussion and not the Textual Study forum, so I'll try and refrain from analysing the Chinese too much. Most translations I've looked at (Feng, Addiss, Legge) agree more or less with the one above anyway.

 

There seem to be a couple of really straightforward interpretations:

 

--  Leave the masters of their crafts to do their thing; they know best how to proceed

 

--  The state needs someone to execute criminals so that the people are afraid and don't transgress

[3bob]

Those sound like applicable interpretations, thanks.  I was also thinking of an aspect of karma and trusting in it...

[dawei]

Play with fire and you get burnt.

 

Follow the natural law of heaven (way) not laws on earth (of man).

 

To extend life, respect life.

[Marblehead]

First, I think it is a statement against capital punishment.  Chuang Tzu echos the same.

 

Second, if the people feel their present existence is worse than death why would they fear death?  In this case I would say that the soceity is in chaos - no stability or respect throughout the society.  And I would also say the the society's leadership is faulty.  Lead by example.

 

Third, yes, I think that cause and effect (karma) is being implied here.  If we try to do things that are beyond our abilities we are sure to mess up.

[Bearded Dragon]

It's just dealing with situations using a higher level of finesse. Using what is pointed to in the earlier chapters.

 

Such statements as "against capital punishment" are completely missing the point of the TTC by disregarding its core teachings. You can't just throw out the earlier chapters in order to present a point of view. The earlier chapters are the structure of which the later chapters are built.

[shanlung]

I get.. make laws too strict and you'll end up cutting yourself.  Thus following the themes of subtle persuasion and fewer laws. 

 

 

Plagiarised from what I wrote in

 

Wild caughts // Jackie and Jackie Mash // plug for Formosan Blue Magpies

 

Or how birdie and beastie forums got their periodic dose of Tao while I stand on that soap box on birdies and beasties

 

That extract.

 

Ketile in a French forum http://www.perroquet.biz continued to ask of me

"But if I understood well.

The real reason why you still buy wild birds is because you don't know if you coud keep him if you have to live this country and you need to have the possibility to give your bird back to the wild... ???"

 

That is only partly true in the present circumstances. If there are captive bred birdies, I would have given preference to buying captive bred. With their longer exposure to humans, they would be more likely to be friendlier. But neither do I say no, with the righteous indignations shown by some folks as if wild caught birds are obscene. You read my last report  (   Bird born in captivity & 353 heads // Meet Jackie )   to know my frame of mind.

 

Those kind of folks felt it would be far better for those wild to be cooked in pots, shot and buried in obscure fields of Australia, or caught to die in the cages of the shops so they feel morally good and superior. They felt 353 heads of African greys were nothing at all to their desire to feel good. They do not wish to recognise the campaign to ban all wild caught CAG indirectly caused those 353 greys to lose their heads. I so love their brand of blinkers and rose tinted glasses. If folks can tell me where that can be bought, I rather go buy that and live a happier life.

 

If laws are all that will be required, there should be no murders in the world. And no crime either. There had been, and still are enough laws to stop all that. But I could not but recall the 3000 year old teachings of Lao Tze in that Taoist Bible , the Tao De Ching Verse 57 which go somewhat like this

 

The more laws and restrictions there are,

The poorer people become.

The sharper men's weapons,

The more trouble in the land.

The more ingenious and clever men are,

The more strange things happen.

The more rules and regulations,

The more thieves and robbers.

 

Or the more laws we have, the more law breakers and criminals that we get.

 

I do believe only if wild caughts are legal and sustainably regulated that the people living with the birds in the wild will find it meaningful to protect them to be sustainably culled as their long term interest. The treatment of legally caught wild birds will be that much better and more humane as those birds represent real value and not something to be hidden in the corner or buried in a sack. 

 

And not cook them in the pot and sell the heads, or shot and buried in a corner of Australian field.

 

The Taoistic Idiot

Edited April 17, 2015 by shanlung

[Marblehead]

Such statements as "against capital punishment" are completely missing the point of the TTC by disregarding its core teachings. You can't just throw out the earlier chapters in order to present a point of view. The earlier chapters are the structure of which the later chapters are built.

Would you be willing to point out where in the TTC the suggestion of this being a statement against capital punishment is contradictory to any other entry in the TTC?

 

Are you suggesting that favoring capital punishment is one of the core teachings in the TTC?

 

 

PS  I, personally, am a supporter of capital punishment but my values do not apply to this discussion.

[dust]

I would quite like an explanation as to why you think it is against capital punishment...?
 

edit:

 

I'm not saying it's definitely not against capital punishment... I just don't understand how it is

 

It seems to be suggesting that capital punishment is useful and that the role of executioner is an important one...

Edited April 17, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

I would quite like an explanation as to why you think it is against capital punishment...?

Sure.  So would I.

 

Only the first six lines apply to this thought.  Let's look at them again:

 

WHEN the people are no longer afraid of death,

Why scare them with the spectre of death?

If you could make the people always afraid of death,

And they still persisted in breaking the law,

Then you might with reason arrest and execute them,

And who would dare to break the law?

 

When the people do not fear death,

Why scare them with capital punishment?

 

If you could make people fear capital punishment,

And they broke a law requiring capital punishment,

You could arrest and execute them.

Who would dare break any of those laws?

 

So foremost, a society must offer its members a reason to live - a good life.  If the people have a good life why would they take the chance of ending it?

 

 

Derek Lin's Note 1 to this chapter:

 

Capital punishment was a fact of life in ancient China.  The sages observed this and noted that the practice did not seem very effective as a deterrent.  Criminals still existed, as if they had no fear of death.

 

 

Red Pine notes from Yin Wen:  "If people are not afraid to die, it is because punishments are excessive.  When punishments are excessive, people don't care about life."

 

And he notes from Li Hsi-chai:  "This implies that punishments cannot be relied upon for governing.  If people are not afraid of death, what use is threatening them with execution?  And if they are afraid of death, and we catch someone who breaks the law, and we execute them, by killing one person we should be able to govern the rest.  But the more people we kill, the more break the law.  Thus punishment is not the answer."

[Taoist Texts]

http://thedaobums.com/topic/20765-ttc-study-chapter-74-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?p=619675

[Marblehead]

Thanks for recalling this.  It had skipped my mind.

[Marblehead]

edit:

 

 

It seems to be suggesting that capital punishment is useful and that the role of executioner is an important one...

I just noticed the edit.

 

And yes, Red Pine's quote from Li Hsi-chai speaks to this.

[Bearded Dragon]

In a world with endless permutations you cannot reasonably dictate that at any future moment capital punishment will be an inferior option to another. If, in each situation, one is able to see then one would possibly find that there are better options most of the time, but in some cases perhaps not. This is a matter for the situation. Same thing as always. Be present, work with right now, have no fixed views or opinions.

 

Unfortunately most people seem to be unable to see (and therefore also unable to judge optimally), but that's neither here nor there in regards to the message of the chapter. 

Edited April 17, 2015 by Bearded Dragon