Meat

[Aetherous]

You mention being disconnected with nature. I think that supporting this kind of farming (which we've all done if we've ever been to McDonald's or KFC or eaten a Nestle product or etc etc etc) shows a supreme lack of connection with our food.

 

Was just talking with a roommate last night, who said she wouldn't be able to eat meat if she was aware of the process...she likes living in oblivion and will eat what tastes good, without thinking of the actual animals that make up the meat. Coincidentally, she is one of the most neurotic and pathologically disconnected people I know, to the point where most of the time she isn't even aware of the world around her. In talking about people we know with her, she can't even recall their correct hair color due to being so unaware of what surrounds her.

 

And how many people who eat meat would actually be able to kill it themselves?

 

I would prefer to, but hunting is a sport or seasonal past time these days, instead of a way of life (unless you live way out in the woods as an outdoorsman). Having had venison from hunts...it's much more satisfying than anything from the grocery store.

 

Unfortunately in our world, we have too many people for all of us to rely on hunting our own meat. If meat farming could be raised to a higher standard, it would be wonderful.

[voidisyinyang]

curious which animals are sacred and what nakes them sacred

 

Marvin Harris has done amazing research of the different cultures - and why certain animals are sacred or not.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1364230/Marvin-Harris.html

 

Wow - good obituary really sums up his arguments.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Out teeth and digestive tract show how much meat we ate during evolution, and how much would be in proportion in this world.

 

We have teeth showing that we initially ate much fruit, then some vegetable type plants, then meat (Ice Ages), then nuts and seeds.

 

This is a tale of expansion/contraction that is shown in the convolutions in our brains and intestines.

 

Human has few meat tearing teeth and a long intestinal tract.
Dog has big meat tearing teeth and a short digestive tract.

 

Human eating like dog is something like going backwards into another form of life - impossible to maintain as human being.

 

This development also corresponds with the Galactic Cycle or "Great Year". Human beings formed in Galactic Autumn as the climate cooled and plants contracted from giant ferns and such at time of dinosaurs, to big fruit, then nuts, and finally the small seeds of wild grasses.

 

This is alternating development wherein animal is arising from vegetal. The vegetal realm is creating the animal realm.

 

What is it that human being is evolving into?

 

There are many more such basic distinctions to understand in exploring why and how we eat, and what "meat" is to us in that.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[ridingtheox]

moonnight:

 

My friend calls it eating alien food, because being a vegetarian causes one's consciousness to rise. Often times eating meat will carry the instincts of the animal into the human, so thoughts like lust and anger will form.

 

sorry this sort of anthopomorphic thought  making animal instincts  somehow not acceptible or worse is so  ego-centric it blinds us to the broad truth that all of life is sacred and needs to be respected.   

 

Peace to all being

[mYTHmAKER]

sa·cred

ˈsākrəd/

adjective

adjective: sacred

connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration.

[mYTHmAKER]

Marvin Harris has done amazing research of the different cultures - and why certain animals are sacred or not.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1364230/Marvin-Harris.html

 

Wow - good obituary really sums up his arguments.

Wonder how Marvin Harris explains not eating shellfish and other scavangers - pigs fit into the scavanger catagory.

[Nungali]

curious which animals are sacred and what nakes them sacred

 

 

People do 

 

Which animals depend on which people. 

 

I was being brief.

 

And still will be a bit - two versions ;

 

There is all the totemic requirements in some indigenous cultures. If I am a goanna totem, I am not allowed to eat goanna. Also I might forbid others hunting and eating it at certain times if the numbers go low, and I might be responsible for doing the ceremony at the 'Goanna increase site' - all to do with regulating and not abusing the supply.

 

In a culture's overall group mythology a type of animal may have helped somehow or been intricate for the development of that society or an important individual in it. -  Eg.   "  in the Vedic literature, Vishnu takes the form of a boar named Varaha to save the Earth. Also, the story of Freyr’s golden boar in the Norse mythology stresses the innate goodness of pigs/boars in a similar fashion. Pigs/wild boars are not permissible at all for consumption in Zoroastrianism."

 

 and  

 

" dogs and horses enjoy a number of legal privileges and special rights in the Zoroastrian jurisprudence. Dogs are not at all permissible for consumption and their most kind treatment is enjoined upon every Zoroastrian"

 

http://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2012/03/05/zoroastrian-dietary-laws-animal-friendship-and-stewardship/

 

Also it can be regional eg.  'Crocodilopolis '   -   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faiyum

Edited April 26, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Wonder how Marvin Harris explains not eating shellfish and other scavangers - pigs fit into the scavanger catagory.

 

Its an interesting idea, but his idea seems to fall down , as a cultural anthropologist, as IMO any serious cultural anthropologist CAN NOT form a valid view of the human organism and our cultures from a purely materialistic POV.

 

So his ideas about food taboos are valid for the reasons he gives, but he has left out all the other influences that are not materialistic that contribute - society and culture does not live on 'meat' alone .... there are certain 'psychological necessities'. 

[voidisyinyang]

He said shellfish are not even a significant source of food for a farming/pastoral culture.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=r6XpvpcOMrcC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=marvin+harris+shellfish+taboo&source=bl&ots=xRRuCYIecl&sig=r-ZJpzK-3NET_cHS-tpJwapGNQs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1Gc9VfS-KYrEggSat4D4BQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=marvin harris shellfish taboo&f=false

 

The pigs are covered in the obituary link I posted.

 

 

[Nungali]

Unless they are oyster farmers.

 

he could be right about its significance as a food for  farm pastoral cultures, but not hunter gatherers

 

                           

[MooNiNite]

moonnight:

 

My friend calls it eating alien food, because being a vegetarian causes one's consciousness to rise. Often times eating meat will carry the instincts of the animal into the human, so thoughts like lust and anger will form.

 

sorry this sort of anthopomorphic thought  making animal instincts  somehow not acceptible or worse is so  ego-centric it blinds us to the broad truth that all of life is sacred and needs to be respected.   

 

Peace to all being

 

There is a hierarchy whether you believe it to be ego-centric or not. There are superior beings, it is just the way of the universe. For example, your limited mind cannot comprehend the understanding of that of a great buddha. We all have to evolve to reach such understandings, There is a path whether you like it or not. Is the fact that conscious evolution and ascension exists cause those who acknowledge it to be ego-centric or corrupted? That is like saying brushing your teeth to keep them clean is evil. 

 

Of course i believe animals are sacred...but i still acknowledge that they are less conscious and more oriented towards, food, sex, and survival. I dont simply black out the existence of conscious evolution and the existence of superior beings. 

[Rara]

Just out of curiosity, but do any of you guys here eat meat? I personally still eat meat but I'm starting to come off it such as like chicken nuggets, some of the videos I see are so sad that it makes me want to cry.

Wow, even if I still ate meat, I wouldn't eat nuggets! That stuff cannot be good for you.

 

I came off gradually in January and am now meat free.

 

Go with what you find to be true. Beware of internet propaganda...explore and see what happens.

 

Only you have the answer. Only your mind can get in the way and allow you to "lie to yourself".

[Rara]

I can't lie, there is the odd exception.. I have a packet of chocolate biscuits in the cupboard that certainly contains mass-produced cow's milk (actually, I think the production of milk involves some of the worst abuse) -- but am trying to phase it all out and eat more fruit and veggies.

 

 

overpop.jpg

Glad you brought this up. After the vids I watched, I am investigating how true this is to most UK farms. If I do find it as true, I will struggle to support the dairy industry any more.

[dust]

Just to be sure, I get milk from a farm called Riverford

 

http://www.riverford.co.uk/aboutus/animal-welfare

 

I'm sure there'll be a place around you somewhere that offers this kind of 'produce' (can't think of a nicer word)..

 

The veg boxes are usually full of good stuff, and the milk is delicious! Not homogenised, either -- full of lumpy cream...

Edited April 27, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Rara]

Just to be sure, I get milk from a farm called Riverford

 

http://www.riverford.co.uk/aboutus/animal-welfare

 

I'm sure there'll be a place around you somewhere that offers this kind of 'produce' (can't think of a nicer word)..

 

The veg boxes are usually full of good stuff, and the milk is delicious! Not homogenised, either -- full of lumpy cream...

Thank you. I have saved the page but had a fairly good read.

 

Interestingly, it talks about calves being fed their natural mother's milk whereas on non-organic farms, they are fed powders milk.

 

Now, in a documentary I watched, the calves were torn from their parents straight away and then shot so that the mother would produce milk for the humans only. The calf is "worthless".

 

So there is already something that doesn't add up. I wonder who is right. Hard to tell just being sat at the internet!

 

As for the meat consumption, it's all well and good them talking about what they deem as a moral way to eat meat. I would say that the chicken is probably more at home walking around and clucking than being killed for food.

[dust]

Yeah. I won't argue the ethics of eating meat too strongly -- I fully see where vegetarians and vegans are coming from, and have been on the cusp of veganism myself. From a perspective of human compassion, we have no excuse to kill animals for sustenance when we have numerous other ways of feeding ourselves and being completely healthy (a little bit of Marmite feeds the B12 deficit, I think?).

 

Tim Shieff is an excellent example of the vegan lifestyle being perfectly healthy, if done right.

 

But...well, for me, from a Taoist, holistic perspective, the way things work is that some animals eat other animals. That's not going to stop. And quickly killing a chicken when it is at its prime rather than leaving it to grow old and slow and get killed violently by a fox? Well, I'm not so compassionate that I won't take the meat for myself, I guess.

 

 

 

Interestingly, it talks about calves being fed their natural mother's milk whereas on non-organic farms, they are fed powders milk.

Now, in a documentary I watched, the calves were torn from their parents straight away and then shot so that the mother would produce milk for the humans only. The calf is "worthless".

So there is already something that doesn't add up. I wonder who is right. Hard to tell just being sat at the internet!

 

Yeah it is hard. I might guess that they don't mention the 'worthless' calves because not every 'non-organic' farm will necessarily do that -- at the very least they'll want a proportion of those calves to be raised, to make up for losses (all dairy cows are eventually slaughtered, of course -- can't lose a profit).

Edited April 27, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Nungali]

Some of the concepts I like about traditional Zoroastrian food ethics is

 

If an animal does make it to older age - you shouldnt kill and eat it, you you should give it a nice retirement. 

 

You shoudnt kill and eat a young animal either, especially a calf!  And you should not use an animal for food that is supplying another product to you (  eg. ) wool, milk or eggs. 

 

In the development of their original culture ( a little jump in the early stages of agricultural settlements) they developed the 'vara' ( Avst. - enclosure ) style of household. This included animals. so the animals were seen as part of the household. In old Zoroastrian law, dogs and cows were seen as a type of citizen and had some legal rights. 

 

We had a couple of cows here for the first years I was here. I remember that milk ... when we had to much I would take it into our little tofu production plant and make  burfi      

 

 

[   Image warning !      ] 

 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Indian+burfi&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=crU-VZ7fFdbpoAStlYHABg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1222&bih=550

 

 

Tried it with shop milk     

 

Now, the Chinese have a plan to open a big dairy somewhere nearby to ship fresh milk to China (they are convincing the Chinese it should be part of their diet now ) .

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2015 by Nungali

[dust]

Yeah. I used to buy the packets of "milk" they sell there...it's disgusting. Tastes nothing like milk. Nigh on impossible to get anything close to fresh, good milk in Beijing.

 

I don't like to think about the many poor cows it takes to get all that "milk" to how many millions of Chinese every day...

Edited April 28, 2015 by dustybeijing

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Now, the Chinese have a plan to open a big dairy somewhere nearby to ship fresh milk to China (they are convincing the Chinese it should be part of their diet now ) ."

-----

 

As the Chinese take up consuming "dairy", the rates of lung and breast cancer will skyrocket there.

 

Previously, despite a high smoking rate, the incidence of these cancers was relatively low.

 

Countries where "dairy" consumption is high usually have high rates of these cancers, and also of osteoporosis.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[dust]

Previously, despite a high smoking rate, the incidence of these cancers was relatively low.

 

That doesn't seem like it should be true (I know very well how the Chinese love their smokes), but I see that China does indeed sit relatively low.

 

Not sure that I'll jump to blaming dairy just yet, but I will reconsider my position on smoking

Edited April 28, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Rara]

So...

 

My girlfriend and I went to a farm yesterday...along with some lovely gardens and a mansion (which I was least interested in)

 

As it was quiet, I managed to talk to a couple of farmer for a good 20 minutes on the subject of meat and dairy.

 

Tatton farm does produce meat for the slaughterhouse, but no dairy for public consumption. So generally, their animals live good lives and their kids grow up with the parents etc.

 

That said, they are bred specifically for slaughter. I don't know how "tao' this is...I'm sure animals would generally run free and just do their thing, no real need to farm them for profit. However, what is true is that something else in the wild would just go ahead and eat them anyway.

 

They did confirm that milking cows on dairy farms do lose their calves at birth and are work-cows to deliver milk to our supermarkets. Artificial insemination, giving birth only to squeeze tonnes of milk for our breakfast cereal...yeah, I don't dig that.

 

They said that meat in Britain are the best kept than most of the world, especially Europe...apparently Danish bacon is pretty bad. Pigs kept sandwiched together in crates...that is their life.

 

I have no references of course, this is just from the talk I had. But some people here might find it educational still.

[voidisyinyang]

That doesn't seem like it should be true (I know very well how the Chinese love their smokes), but I see that China does indeed sit relatively low.

 

Not sure that I'll jump to blaming dairy just yet, but I will reconsider my position on smoking

 

cancer rates are growing dramatically in china due to smog.

[voidisyinyang]

what's carcinogenic in dairy is the casein protein but capsaicin the active ingredient in cayenne neutralizes casein protein and capsaicin kills cancer.

 

So herbs are the secret to diet versatility.

 

I just get a big bag of those dried chilies from Thailand then smash them up when ever I have dairy or meat or eggs.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"cancer rates are growing dramatically in china due to smog."

-----

 

If that were true, cancer would've been epidemic by the early 1900s in american cities, which were so smogged that there actually was an epidemic - of rickets, because so much light was blocked-out.

 

Environmental protest/consumer/citizen movements in the 60s and 70s caused real reductions in smog, and cancer rates have risen plenty since then.

 

Smog is not good, but consuming dairy insures that the smog will stick to lungs.

 

Dairy is a major reason some people who never smoked at all develop lung cancer, and there are people who smoked a lot but never touched dairy at all who do not get lung cancer.

 

Dairy, being product of another animal's mammaries, is particularly involved in breast cancer as well.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[voidisyinyang]

The difference from the smog cancer epidemic in China may just be one of size - China has mega cities of 20 million people, etc. whereas the U.S. at turn of century had nothing close to that size.

 

The smog in China is so bad is makes the pollution in California bad.

When I just watched a new documentary on smog in China they compared it to London in the 1950s -

 

 

a strong rise in air pollution levels was immediately followed by sharp increases in mortality and morbidity.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241789/

 

But I think death from cancer from smog is a more chronic disease unlike influenza epidemic deaths from smog.

 

So U.S. smog cancer epidemic? 1977:
 

Blame lung cancer 'epidemic' on smog - Chicago Tribune

archives.chicagotribune.com/1977/...cancer-epidemic...smog/index.html

Blame lung cancer 'epidemic' on smog (October 29, 1977). S Oct 29, 1977. The Document Viewer requires that you enable Javascript. Loading.

 

and now China:

 

Cancer epidemic hits China after decades of pollution spark ...

www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Cancer-epidemic-hits-China-decades-...

Daily Mail

Feb 22, 2013 - Cancer epidemic hits China after decades of pollution spark boom in ... wears a mask in Beijing, a city which is badly affected by smog and ..