What does it mean to be transgender?

[liminal_luke]

Transgender folk suffer from a neurological and/or hormonal glitch in the system.

 

Straight men who put on their girlfriends panties in private are indulging a sexual kink.

 

Drag queens (and kings) just want to have fun.

 

.................................................

 

Well, at least that´s my current understanding, though I´m sure reality is more complicated than I imagine.

Edited December 19, 2015 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

You are conflating gender with sexuality. Gender is either male or female in humans. Cutting off the genitals, taking hormones, dressing as a women, or having homosexual relationships doesn't alter that fact.

 

It no longer surprises me that gender blurring is becoming ever more prevalent in our society. The implications should be clear. This is the subjective pragmatism of societal decay. The blurring of definitions is a denial of reality, a denial of reality means the death of morality.

 

It is not the activity itself that is dangerous, but the floating abstractions which are becoming acceptable.

 

Once it becomes acceptable to blur some definitions, then the canker will spread to all definitions. Morality becomes an impossibility in a world in which every definition is a floating abstraction-where a thing means whatever anyone deems it to mean. It is impossible to reason or integrate any knowledge based on floating abstractions. We may as well give up words and speech, grunt incoherently, rut like animals and kill each other for fun. Forget science and law, or any form of advanced civilisation if we give up reason.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Karl

[liminal_luke]

Karl,

 

Transgender people aren´t blurring the definition of gender, and neither, for that matter, are gays and lesbians. Or intersex folks. In all these cases, people are just responding to their biology. There are physical reasons that underlie these variations, things that could be seen under a microscope if we knew where (and when) to look.

 

So it´s not simply a matter of people getting needlessly relativistic and fuzzy-headed with abstraction. Perhaps you would prefer to live in the wild west where "men were men," but morality has nothing to do with it.

 

Liminal

Edited December 19, 2015 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

Just to be clear, my previous post was in response to Redcairo.

 

Trans gender is a meaningless word. It isn't a definition, it's a corruption of a concept. Gays and Lesbians are definitions. They are people who prefer to have sexual relations with their own sex.

 

Gender is male or female. That's it. There isn't any halfway house or metaphorphis. It isn't possible to have a 'sex change' operation. You can have body modifications and hormone therapy, but there is no change of gender, it's fixed. Just as I can't have a tail grafted onto my spine and call myself a dog.

 

No idea what you mean by 'living in the wild West' or my preferences or otherwise? but certainly men are men regardless of the historical period.

 

If people want to experiment with sexuality I say good luck to them. It shouldn't be against the law as long as it's consenting adults. If people wish to modify themselves, or dress up as the opposite gender, or crawl on all fours as dogs then they should go ahead. However, when they start messing about with definitions and hence reality I'm going to get mad.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Karl

[liminal_luke]

Men are men except when they aren´t. This isn´t people "messing with definitions"; it´s a fact of their biology. Transgender may be meaningless to you but it wouldn´t be if you were transgender. I imagine you are a man who feels comfortable with your masculine identity, is sexually attracted to women, and so on. If so, that´s great. Life is much easier that way.

 

But why assume everyone is like you? There´s this whole group of people out there who say that ever since they remember they´ve felt like they were born the "wrong" gender. Sometimes they take steps to correct the problem through hormone treatments or surgery. Again, they aren´t messing with definitions. They simply have a different experience than you do. Why get mad?

Edited December 19, 2015 by liminal_luke

[Aetherous]

Gender is male or female. That's it. There isn't any halfway house or metaphorphis.

 

This is actually scientifically untrue. There are a small percentage of people born inbetween genders, even at the chromosomal level. This is something I learned in college physiological psychology class.

 

I fully agree with your thoughts that people who are born as men should not become feminized, or women should not become masculinized, by an unprincipled and foolish culture. But it's important to realize that in reality, not all people are born distinctly male or female.

 

This is a separate topic from the transgender phenomenon, which is where someone who is truly born as a man feels like a woman on the inside for some reason or another (or vice versa) and decides to live as that in some way. People who are truly born as intersex are really dealing with something rare and misunderstood...for them it's not a choice or psychological phenomenon, but a genetic reality. They are truly neither gender.

 

As for the morality of transgenderism, which might be a choice coming from a psychological phenomenon...it's not my place to dictate what others think feel or do. It's only my place to treat them well, as best I can. The world would get pretty boring if there were no anomalies, I suppose.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Aetherous

[liminal_luke]

Aetherous,

 

I´m happy to hear your views on the physiological basis of people born with ambiguous gender. Agreed. But don´t you think that a similar physiological phenomenon might be at the root of at least some cases of transsexual identity?

 

I´m not saying that our culture as a whole isn´t getting more fluid about gender as a whole. I think it is and perhaps Karl and you object to that cultural phenomenon. But that´s not what´s going on in most cases when people call themselves transsexual.

 

I could decide to wear a dress and put on makeup for any number of reasons. Perhaps it´s Halloween and this is my costume. Maybe it turns me on sexually. Maybe I¨m rebelling against my parents or think it´s fashionable with the kids at school. Some of these reasons are no doubt silly. Some of these reasons might be evidence of "an unprincipled and foolish culture." We could debate this but, strictly speaking, we´d be going off topic. None of these hypothetical crossdressers-- not the halloween party-goer, the sexual fetishist, or the rebellious adolescent-- are transsexual.

 

Transsexualism is something entirely different.

 

Liminal

Edited December 19, 2015 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

This is actually scientifically untrue. There are a small percentage of people born inbetween genders, even at the chromosomal level. This is something I learned in college physiological psychology class.

I fully agree with your thoughts that people who are born as men should not become feminized, or women should not become masculinized, by an unprincipled and foolish culture. But it's important to realize that in reality, not all people are born distinctly male or female.

This is a separate topic from the transgender phenomenon, which is where someone who is truly born as a man feels like a woman on the inside for some reason or another (or vice versa) and decides to live as that in some way. People who are truly born as intersex are really dealing with something rare and misunderstood...for them it's not a choice or psychological phenomenon, but a genetic reality. They are truly neither gender.

As for the morality of transgenderism, which might be a choice coming from a psychological phenomenon...it's not my place to dictate what others think feel or do. It's only my place to treat them well, as best I can. The world would get pretty boring if there were no anomalies, I suppose.

 

Yes I agree with most of that-once we are at the biological level I claim no expertise, but they still have a fixed number of chromosomes. They can be perhaps regarded as less female/more male, in the same way that the colour red can tend towards orange, but they can still be gendered. Someone isn't born exactly both genders and then they can choose to slide between them as whim dictates. I always think that if a definition doesn't apply in some area then the definition must be incorrect.

 

 

[Karl]

Men are men except when they aren´t. This isn´t people "messing with definitions"; it´s a fact of their biology. Transgender may be meaningless to you but it wouldn´t be if you were transgender. I imagine you are a man who feels comfortable with your masculine identity, is sexually attracted to women, and so on. If so, that´s great. Life is much easier that way.But why assume everyone is like you? There´s this whole group of people out there who say that ever since they remember they´ve felt like they were born the "wrong" gender. Sometimes they take steps to correct the problem through hormone treatments or surgery. Again, they aren´t messing with definitions. They simply have a different experience than you do. Why get mad?

 

Feeling something doesn't make it reality. If someone thinks, feels, believes or otherwise that they aren't in the right skin, then that's unfortunate. Making a word up to cover the mental/physical anguish is senseless. They cannot change gender no matter how good the modifications are. If they feel better for it then I have no issues with it. I don't mind if they use the men's, of women's toilets, changing rooms etc, I will happily treat them like women, but they remain the gender they were born and nothing can change that. To call yourself transgender is ridiculous, as it makes it patently clear you are avoiding the reality-Either a man posing as a woman, or a woman as a man. It's interesting to note that the second option is not common.

[Aetherous]

But don´t you think that a similar physiological phenomenon might be at the root of at least some cases of transsexual identity?

 

It could be...I don't think anyone knows for sure, so I put "maybe". I tried to state it in a way that allows for any possible reason...and if I used "psychological" I didn't mean to imply that it was a psychiatric disorder by any means, but only a product of something other than physiology...which it might be. If you have some evidence of it being a physiological phenomenon, I'm interested to see it.

 

I could decide to wear a dress and put on makeup for any number of reasons. ... Some of these reasons might be evidence of "an unprincipled and foolish culture."

 

I wasn't saying by any means that people who are prone toward transgenderism  or crossdressing are unprincipled or foolish.

 

My point was that our culture tends to encourage men to be less masculine, and women to be less feminine. The normal gender roles are seen as outdated stereotypes from the 50s or something, and people tend to view evolution as being toward the opposite gender...to our detriment! Because men benefit from being more masculine, and women benefit from being more feminine...we evolve from being more of who we are.

 

I think this also implies that people who are intersex, transgender, etc, benefit more from being themselves, as well. I'm with you in viewing them as separate issues.

 

So to be clear: I have no qualms with people being whatever they are. I have problems with society attempting to brainwash us into harmful and misguided ideologies.

[Karl]

Aetherous,I´m happy to hear your views on the physiological basis of people born with ambiguous gender. Agreed. But don´t you think that a similar physiological phenomenon might be at the root of at least some cases of transsexual identity?I´m not saying that our culture as a whole isn´t getting more fluid about gender as a whole. I think it is and perhaps Karl and you object to that cultural phenomenon. But that´s not what´s going on in most cases when people call themselves transsexual.I could decide to wear a dress and put on makeup for any number of reasons. Perhaps it´s Halloween and this is my costume. Maybe it turns me on sexually. Maybe I¨m rebelling against my parents or think it´s fashionable with the kids at school. Some of these reasons are no doubt silly. Some of these reasons might be evidence of "an unprincipled and foolish culture." We could debate this but, strictly speaking, we´d be going off topic. None of these hypothetical crossdressers-- not the halloween party-goer, the sexual fetishist, or the rebellious adolescent-- are transsexual.Transsexualism is something entirely different.Liminal

I don't object to anyone that decides to modify their bodies.

 

Let me ask you a question and then let's look at the problem in a concrete form.

 

Do you think obtaining a value that you have not fairly earned is a good thing ?

 

Let's look at the case in which a man decides to modify his body to become a female, outwardly indistinguishable from a pretty woman.

 

So far so good.

 

Then he finds herself attracted to a man and the man to him. He has the choice of admitting he is in fact a man, or lying.

If he admits it and the other man doesn't care, then everything is fine.

 

The problems start when he lies. He obtains a value-love-that he did not earn. He did so by deception. Now, if he is a sociopathic liar then they will not care what value they obtain illegitimately, but I suspect someone who has taken the step to try and become what they believe they are, are already concerned about moral appropriation of value. Lying will take its toll. It's the same if he wishes to form a strong friendship with a woman. If he doesn't come clean he will always know he is obtaining the value of friendship fraudulently. The same happens when looking for employment.

 

Obtaining a value fraudulently is destructive on the fraudster. They spend their lives denying reality and are forced into a world in which lies are piled on the top of lies. This is intolerable to an average person.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Karl

[liminal_luke]

Karl,

 

You bring up a good point. Transsexualism brings up ethical issues, issues I haven´t spent a lot of time thinking through and don´t claim to be an expert about. If a transsexual person has transitioned to live as the gender they identify with, then that´s an important part of their life and I imagine that they would, and should, share it with people they are close to, whether friends or sexual partners. I think we agree about this.

 

But I don´t think that simply being trans is about deception. Transsexual people experience their given anatomical gender as psychologically painful, and, in many cases, take measures to alleviate that pain. These measures may involve hormones or surgery so that the gender they feel like on the inside matches their outside appearance.

 

Nobody chooses to be transsexual, but some people choose to crossdress. As I pointed out in my post to Aetherous, those people might be halloween party-goers, sexual fetishists, or rebellious teens experimenting with gender-fluidity. Maybe some few of them are gay men trying to trick attractive drunk heterosexual men into their beds, and, if so, that would be wrong.

 

But that has nothing to do with being transsexual. Transsexual people are not frauds, at least not merely by virtue of being trans. They are people with a painful psychological condition who want to be happy. Just like the rest of us.

 

Liminal

Edited December 19, 2015 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

Karl,You bring up a good point. Transsexualism brings up ethical issues, issues I haven´t spent a lot of time thinking through and don´t claim to be an expert about. If a transsexual person has transitioned to live as the gender they identify with, then that´s an important part of their life and I imagine that they would, and should, share it with people they are close to, whether friends or sexual partners. I think we agree about this.But I don´t think that simply being trans is about deception. Transsexual people experience their given anatomical gender as psychologically painful, and, in many cases, take measures to alleviate that pain. These measures may involve hormones or surgery so that the gender they feel like on the inside matches their outside appearance.Nobody chooses to be transsexual, but some people choose to crossdress. As I pointed out in my post to Aetherous, those people might be halloween party-goers, sexual fetishists, or rebellious teens experimenting with gender-fluidity. Maybe some few of them are gay men trying to trick attractive drunk heterosexual men into their beds, and, if so, that would be wrong.But that has nothing to do with being transsexual. Transsexual people are not frauds, at least not merely by virtue of being trans. They are people with a painful psychological condition who want to be happy. Just like the rest of us.Liminal

 

Is easy to be an intellectual rationalist when considering these things in a virtual framework.

 

You are an expert on your own moral values and you know where deception gets you. The reality is that the values you try to obtain don't manifest. Instead of love, there is guilt, instead of happiness there is misery.

 

What value is being sought ? An hour of self titivation in the privacy of the bedroom, or the feeling that one is fooling the people in the street ? The 'trans gendered' person cannot simply wipe away all memory, all past history, friends, family or develop the biological ability to conceive children. At each and every turn there will be lies, conflict, unhappiness and misery. Being dishonest has repercussions. They must be honest or fail to gain value, unless their is to obtain a twisted kind of pleasure by deception-which would be strange considering they had felt dishonest in their previous gender guise.

 

Reality is inescapable. Trying to cheat it brings unhappiness for the fraudster.

[thelerner]

On a sexuality basis, I've always thought we swim in a soup of hormones from birth.   They put us on a spectrum that runs male to female with most falling towards the ends but not all.  Some are in the middle some, a few, at extremes from there gender.  There may be environmental pressures that might be mixing up the usual odds a little, ie more estrogen and various chemicals in food, probably not a good thing. 

 

On there the other hand there is also an openness in society to be who you are.  That, in my opinion, is a good thing.

Edited December 19, 2015 by thelerner

[liminal_luke]

Karl,

 

I´m neither transsexual nor a crossdresser, just a garden-variety gay. In my more insecure moments, I´d like to think that I could pass as "straight," but, sadly, few are deceived.

 

So while I´m not especially up on the biology of transsexualism, or the fine points of trans politics or ethics, I do know what it feels like to be hated. I know what it´s live in a community where people think you are evil and bad for something that´s such a central part of who you are.

 

Not fun.

 

So, to me, it seems like basic human decency to extend a little compassion to transsexual people. If they say they were born the wrong gender, and want to take steps to change that, who am I to say otherwise? If they take hormones or get surgery or wear wigs it´s not about me. They aren´t doing it to have duplicitous sex with vulnerable straight dudes. They certainly aren´t doing it so they can make less per hour at their jobs or get passed over for promotions. They are doing it because it feels right deep in their souls.

 

The son of my mom´s boyfriend is transsexual. Born Matt, she´s now Emilie. She told her father that for years she had been hiding the fact that she felt like a girl from everyone. His response? Why couldn´t she go on hiding? Her decision to transition was more about honesty than dishonesty if you ask me. It takes courage to be who you are. So much courage.

Edited December 19, 2015 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

Karl,I´m neither transsexual nor a crossdresser, just a garden-variety gay. In my more insecure moments, I´d like to think that I could pass as "straight," but, sadly, few are deceived.So while I´m not especially up on the biology of transsexualism, or the fine points of trans politics or ethics, I do know what it feels like to be hated. I know what it´s live in a community where people think you are evil and bad for something that´s such a central part of who you are.It´s not fun.So, to me, it seems like basic human decency to extend a little compassion to transsexual people. If they say they were born the wrong gender, and want to take steps to change that, who am I to say otherwise? If they take hormones or get surgery or wear wigs it´s not about me. They aren´t doing it to have duplicitous sex with vulnerable straight dudes. They certainly aren´t doing it so they can make less per hour at their jobs or get passed over for promotions. They are doing it because it feels right deep in their souls.The son of my mom´s boyfriend is transsexual. Born Matt, she´s now Emilie. She told her father that for years she had been hiding the fact that she felt like a girl from everyone. His response? Why couldn´t she go on hiding? Her decision to transition was more about honesty than dishonesty if you ask me. It takes courage to be who you are. So much courage.

 

That's missing the point entirely. There is no 'right' for anyone to be accepted by anyone.

 

Again, I'm entirely indifferent to someone who wishes to make themselves look something they are more happy with, it has nothing to do with me. My point is where do they go from there ? What has really changed ? Have things got better or worse ?

 

At least if you are homosexual you know exactly what you are and there is no deception unless you are kidding the opposite sex. A transvestite can only deceive for a short time, so anything intimate will require truthfulness. Sure it's tougher being gay than being heterosexual, but then being blind is tougher than being sighted, being black is tougher than being white.

 

None of this alters the way we obtain values. We can choose to obtain values fraudulently or honestly. A gay person can have exactly those same virtues of independence, rationality, productivity, integrity, honesty and pride than a heterosexual, a black, cripple, blind or any other person.

 

At present there are laws forcing people to accept homosexuality. This is a violation of rights. It is using force to get values that are unearned. The laws should be preventing gay people from being the victims of force, not forcing homosexual lifestyles on others. Neither should their be laws preventing homosexuals from doing whatever they wish with other consenting adults. There should be no laws preventing them from being married, but churches should not be forced to marry homosexuals.

 

This obsession with using force to gain unearned value is the source of much, if not all of the worlds misery.

 

For me personally, I don't care what somebody is. They can be gay, straight, transvestite, body modified, black, blue or a mixture of them all. I only care that they are honest and trust worthy. That they have high moral values and stick to them. I can be friends with anyone who shows those virtues, their skin/sexuality doesn't matter a jot.

 

 

[dust]

Transgender is a symptom of the collapse of civilisation. The feminising of males, feminism and the destruction of the family. That's not the fault of transgender, transsexual, gay, lesbians or any other mixed group, they are simply victims of a new, pragmatic world in which there is no identity and reality has been vanquished.

 

The collapse of civilization, eh?

 

I'm not sure whether to agree or not. I mean, civilization is not good. I am all for 'civilization' as we know it collapsing and something else (something genuinely based on compassion and equality rather than oligarchy and war) taking its place, and would not be appalled to discover that civilization were in fact about to take its final breath.

 

But I'm pretty sure that what you see as 'collapse' is in fact a general improvement. Civilization is, tentatively, starting to become something good, finally.

 

 

We see the same in economics, art, philosophy, education, literature. The world has become Alice's garden party. When people lose their identity and reality distorts perception like a magic mirror, then identity hopping is the result. In Japan the young men are no longer interested in young women, these young males see no value in forming families-they see no purpose in it, or having a male identity so they have developed a kind of androgynous personality.

 

Economy, education, philosophy... they're all better, on average, than they ever have been. This isn't just my opinion, this is as objectively demonstrable as anything that isn't 100% objective.

 

Economically, we're all doing better than past humans. We have more to spend; a far smaller proportion live in poverty. It is true that the absolute number of people living in poverty is greater than it ever has been, but this is only because we've been doing so well (health- and lifespan-wise) that there are more of us now than there ever have been.

 

The world population is, on average, far better educated than any prior population ever has been; the best educated of today know more than any humans in history; I am far better educated than my ancestors of 200 years ago ever could have been.

 

Our scientists and philosophers are able to connect the pieces from over 3000 years of science and philosophy around the world to construct the most complete idea of reality any humans have ever known.

 

(Art and literature are, of course, entirely subjective, and I'm not sure what I'd argue either way.)

 

You can use Japan as an example if you like, but their admittedly odd culture is not exactly representative of the entire world. And either way, it is doing better economically, scientifically, and educationally than it ever has before.

 

 

 

What you call a loss of identity I might call... freedom.

 

 

The laws should be preventing gay people from being the victims of force, not forcing homosexual lifestyles on others.

 

I'm sorry.. what..?

Edited December 19, 2015 by dustybeijing

[ralis]

That's missing the point entirely. There is no 'right' for anyone to be accepted by anyone. Again, I'm entirely indifferent to someone who wishes to make themselves look something they are more happy with, it has nothing to do with me. My point is where do they go from there ? What has really changed ? Have things got better or worse ? At least if you are homosexual you know exactly what you are and there is no deception unless you are kidding the opposite sex. A transvestite can only deceive for a short time, so anything intimate will require truthfulness. Sure it's tougher being gay than being heterosexual, but then being blind is tougher than being sighted, being black is tougher than being white. None of this alters the way we obtain values. We can choose to obtain values fraudulently or honestly. A gay person can have exactly those same virtues of independence, rationality, productivity, integrity, honesty and pride than a heterosexual, a black, cripple, blind or any other person. At present there are laws forcing people to accept homosexuality. This is a violation of rights. It is using force to get values that are unearned. The laws should be preventing gay people from being the victims of force, not forcing homosexual lifestyles on others. Neither should their be laws preventing homosexuals from doing whatever they wish with other consenting adults. There should be no laws preventing them from being married, but churches should not be forced to marry homosexuals. This obsession with using force to gain unearned value is the source of much, if not all of the worlds misery. For me personally, I don't care what somebody is. They can be gay, straight, transvestite, body modified, black, blue or a mixture of them all. I only care that they are honest and trust worthy. That they have high moral values and stick to them. I can be friends with anyone who shows those virtues, their skin/sexuality doesn't matter a jot.

 

 

There are parts of your narrative that border on bigotry. Furthermore, your narrative is not rational in the least, but based on emotional responses.

Edited December 19, 2015 by ralis

[liminal_luke]

At present there are laws forcing people to accept homosexuality.

Oh Karl, I give up. Just one more quick note before I´m done: there are no laws forcing people to accept homosexuality. In some places people are bound to stop discriminating against us in matters of employment, rental rights, even marriage, but nobody has figured out how to legally enforce anything like acceptance. People are equally free to think what they will of transsexuals. If there were such laws I´d gladly use them to get you to accept us, but alas. In fact, it´s now clear that I´m absolutely powerless to get you to change your views by any means whatsoever. Even rational argument comes up short -- this in spite of your obvious intelligence.

Edited December 19, 2015 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

There are parts of your narrative that border on bigotry. Furthermore, your narrative is not rational in the least, but based on emotional responses.

 

Well you have the right to call me whatever you like, but it doesn't make it so. As it is you are a million miles wide of the mark. I'm against the initiation of force by anyone.

[Karl]

Oh Karl, I give up. Just one more quick note before I´m done: there are no laws forcing people to accept homosexuality. In some places people are bound to stop discriminating against us in matters of employment, rental rights, even marriage, but nobody has figured out how to legally enforce anything like acceptance. People are equally free to think what they will of transsexuals. If there were such laws I´d gladly use them to get you to accept us, but alas. In fact, it´s now clear that I´m absolutely powerless to get you to change your views by any means whatsoever. Even rational argument comes up short -- this in spite of your obvious intelligence.

 

Then you support the initiation of force to gain values that are not earned. Unearned values bring nothing but misery to those who take them by force.

 

That is the question I posed initially. For a brief moment I think you glimpsed the ethical considerations, then just as quickly the light died. Maybe one day it will come back.

 

 

[ralis]

Then you support the initiation of force to gain values that are not earned. Unearned values bring nothing but misery to those who take them by force. That is the question I posed initially. For a brief moment I think you glimpsed the ethical considerations, then just as quickly the light died. Maybe one day it will come back.

 

Values in regard to LGBT persons are not earned based on what criteria? What gives you the right to discriminate? You are very close to being reported to the mods.

[liminal_luke]

Actually no, I don´t. I phrased it that way -- even though it´s not strictly true -- for rhetorical flair. I wasn´t trying to intentionally deceive, just thought people would take it in a less literal spirit. But for the record, I would not force you to change your views even if I could. Sorry about the confusion.

[Karl]

Values in regard to LGBT persons are not earned based on what criteria? What gives you the right to discriminate? You are very close to being reported to the mods.

 

You are discriminating against me right now. Ask yourself what gives you the right?

 

I never singled out LGBT persons, that's your biased obsession.

 

Anyone who takes an unearned value will gain nothing but misery from it. Using force to gain a value is where the problem is.

 

You really can't understand that ? You dispute that taking a value by the initiation of force is wrong?

 

 

[Karl]

Actually no, I don´t. I phrased it that way -- even though it´s not strictly true -- for rhetorical flair. I wasn´t trying to intentionally deceive, just thought people would take it in a less literal spirit. But for the record, I would not force you to change your views even if I could. Sorry about the confusion.

 

But you support the use of force to get a job, rent property, or get married ?

 

As if you walked into a company accompanied by a thug. You demanded a job or you would turn the thug loose on anyone that dared to oppose your request.

 

How is that any different to walking into a jewellery store and demanding loot with menace ?

 

Is this a wise way to live ?

 

My views are that people should stop initiating force and they would be far happier than they are. That initiating force, deception or fraud to obtain unearned values gives us nothing we want. It diminishes us degree by degree. Is it any wonder the world is in the state it is ?