The meaning of Tao?

[dawei]

The Tao cannot be defined. If the Tao is defined then this isn't the eternal Tao.

 

If the translation is wrong about defining then this isn't the defining Tao...

[zerostao]

this afternoon, in my neck of the woods, the dao is a galloping horse.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=I4FNAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=dao+is+a+galloping+horse&source=bl&ots=dstb4jWmV0&sig=nXvvydw8F49h1YtbTmmZ9CHR9h0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OPJEVfLqDoywggSi8oGQCw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=dao%20is%20a%20galloping%20horse&f=false

 

 

at 2:40 the singer specifically tells us what dao is

[scribe]

The more you talk about tao, the further away from it you get. That's the boring easy part.

 

To turn the question on its head, how does tao lead to the notion of meaning? What does it mean for something to mean something? Words mean something, but are they meaningful?

 

When people explore the tao, why do they find it 'meaningful'?

 

In the Library of Babel, Borges wrote:

 

No one can articulate a syllable which is not filled with tenderness and fear, which is not, in one of these languages, the powerful name of a god. To speak is to fall into tautology. This wordy and useless epistle already exists in one of the thirty volumes of the five shelves of one of the innumerable hexagons -- and its refutation as well. (An n number of possible languages use the same vocabulary; in some of them, the symbol library allows the correct definition a ubiquitous and lasting system of hexagonal galleries, but library is bread or pyramid or anything else, and these seven words which define it have another value. You who read me, are You sure of understanding my language?)

 

How do you know if my tao is the same as your tao? Why would it be?

[Marblehead]

To turn the question on its head, how does tao lead to the notion of meaning? What does it mean for something to mean something? Words mean something, but are they meaningful?

Ah!, that lovely question:  What is the meaning of life; or of anything?

 

Just live a good life.  There is no meaning.

[Stosh]

Id click like but its a thank you button now.

[Marblehead]

Id click like but its a thank you button now.

Well, you can thank me for my very thoughtful comments. 

[Songtsan]

If something amuses me, entertains me, informs me, etc. I will click the button...perhaps even too freely

[dawei]

Id click like but its a thank you button now.

 

This is proof that Marblehead is closest to Tao... as he appears to have not made any differentiation between 'like' and 'thank you'.. he is freely clicking away and away...  it is all 'One' to him 

[Marblehead]

Hey!, I just noticed that after you hit the "Thank You" button it turns into a "No Thank You" button.  What would the world be like if both buttons were always available?

[Stosh]

Unfortunately you cant just use it as a no thanks button, THAT I could use. Flex my anus until it vibrates?.... NO THANKS ,

[Marblehead]

Well, for your conditions, perhaps a "Bullshit" button would be useful?

[Stosh]

Oh yeah, thats the ticket. Goood button.It Has a George Carlin feel.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Stosh

[blue eyed snake]

Well, for your conditions, perhaps a "Bullshit" button would be useful?

 

well...sometimes i think i would be nice to have an ignore button for complete threads, create your own pit so to say...........

[Stosh]

You already have that. Its called the dont click on it option.

I call nuwa

Edited May 3, 2015 by Stosh

[blue eyed snake]

You already have that. Its called the dont click on it option.

I call nuwa

 

....yeah, but i would like to be able to sweep those posts under the digital rug, they crop up in every subforum. Fills my pages up with threads i never open after I've seen that they are of no concern to me.

I mean, i can ignore individual posters, i can hide signatures, so why can i not hide complete threads? Just the way a poster can be hidden:

 

you chose to ignore this thread, view it anyway? ( sometimes i do...)

 

and about nuwa....the interesting thing is, but you won't be able to check on that...my experience with woman only places, whether real or virtual, is that the amount of  what you'd call  'manbashing/ manhating'  talk/behaviour is minimal.

 

and as a sideline, IRL, i always went along with guys quite a lot better then with gals. It's only the last years that i find myself happy in a female group

[TheDustAutumn]

.

Edited August 8, 2016 by TheDustAutumn

[maldor]

Energy is a physical concept.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Plot twist:

If a tree falls in the woods, does anyone help it up?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Energy is a physical concept.

 

In discussions of this type energy is often used in a metaphorical sense and not as a strictly "physical" concept.  This harkens back to its original meanings:

 

The word energy derives from the Ancient Greek: ἐνέργεια energeia "activity, operation",^[3] which possibly appears for the first time in the work of Aristotle in the 4th century BC. In contrast to the modern definition, energeia was a qualitative philosophical concept, broad enough to include ideas such as happiness and pleasure. (Wikpedia article on energy, History, Emaphsis mine, ZYD))

 

It is better to try to understand the usage within the context and in discussions like this:

 

It is pure energy yet it generates both form and substance.

 

Energy is used almost as a stand-in for "spirit" in which the only thing in common with its meaning in physics is "the ability to do work", like the ability to create form and substance.

[maldor]

Are we all agreed that "Tao" has no meaning that language can grasp ?

 

If we cannot grasp it in language then we are unable to verbally think about "Tao". We have a word concept that lacks definition or meaning linguistically.

 

Another word comes to mind along these lines 'love". Although love is associated with sensations and Tao seems to defy even that.

[Apech]

Are we all agreed that "Tao" has no meaning that language can grasp ?

 

If we cannot grasp it in language then we are unable to verbally think about "Tao". We have a word concept that lacks definition or meaning linguistically.

 

Another word comes to mind along these lines 'love". Although love is associated with sensations and Tao seems to defy even that.

 

Saying it cannot be defined is not the same as saying we cannot talk about it.  In fact if you think about the word 'about' that's exactly what it means ... without saying what it is we talk around the subject.

 

By the way, I would suggest that correctly speaking energy = qi ... which is in its broadest sense manifest energy in all its forms, including for instance other properties of existence such as space.  Qi arises through the interaction of Heaven and Earth, Heaven being the origin of images and names; and earth the origin of substantial existence ... from their interaction come the 10k things (which includes not just physical objects but also more subtle things such as processes, feelings, thoughts, emotions, concepts and so on).

 

As humans we observe the dance of the interaction of the 10k things ... a dance which occurs to the beat of the drum of Heaven and Earth.  Human's follow earth in that we observe and interact with the substantial world, the earth follows Heaven which is the initiator of patterns of movement and flow, and heaven follows Tao which is the whole process as both origin (non-being) and sustainer of existence (the Mother=being).  Tao follows Ziran ... self-nature ... that which is what it is of itself and nothing else.

 

The flow we experience is Qi which condenses into Jing and dissipates through Shen (repeatedly), it kind of wraps itself in and then radiates itself out.  This is life.

 

Just some thoughts for what its worth ...

[maldor]

I see many similarities with Tao to Dasein. I am biased because I see all religous/shamanic/spiritual paths as interpretations of the mind not a God or primal "energy".

[Apech]

I see many similarities with Tao to Dasein. I am biased because I see all religous/shamanic/spiritual paths as interpretations of the mind not a God or primal "energy".

 

 

What is mind?

[maldor]

If you don't know what I mean by mind I cannot explain further ... I have a feeling the thing you call soul/spirit I call mind ? Either way I mean the thing that constitutes the thing you perceive yourself to be; that is why I mentioned Dasein.

 

Humans only see the world as humans because they are humans. Ants only see the world as ants because they are ants.

 

I think asking how much we understand what we mean by "Tao" is important if you take the subject seriously. Simply as a word concept it is similar to others linguistically. Either it is something that we cannot know, but say we do, much like people say they know God but they cannot explain why. Tao is not anything like a deity though, but some people may view "God" as the force of nature something like what Tao is; of course always failing at a full explanation because it is something we cannot appreciate just as I can only be me experiencing not anyone or anything else.

 

The point of this thread is just me asking what we mean when we say "Tao". Is it simply something attained through a state of surrender to ignorance? Are we talking about something we experience ?

[dawei]

Are we all agreed that "Tao" has no meaning that language can grasp ?

 

If we cannot grasp it in language then we are unable to verbally think about "Tao". We have a word concept that lacks definition or meaning linguistically.

 

Another word comes to mind along these lines 'love". Although love is associated with sensations and Tao seems to defy even that.

 

On some level, this is just a fixation on language...  language is limiting in regards to even physical explanations so I am not sure why language is a litmus test in any sense.  IF LZ and ZZ talked of Dao, I think we can.

 

By the way, I would suggest that correctly speaking energy = qi ... which is in its broadest sense manifest energy in all its forms, including for instance other properties of existence such as space. 

 

I would of quoted more but it takes up too much space... but I do *like* your explanation...

 

I think one has to have spirit in the equation as it is all spirit (to me).   Energy=Qi=Light=Spirit.

 

We get local interpretations and we can experience/sense something beyond the local aspect; That is the realm of light and Spirit.

 

I see many similarities with Tao to Dasein. I am biased because I see all religous/shamanic/spiritual paths as interpretations of the mind not a God or primal "energy".

 

I don't really disagree as we have local mind interpretations... but the output is language... I would focus on the input... and if it is only physical then it will be only philosophical output in most cases.

 

If you don't know what I mean by mind I cannot explain further ... I have a feeling the thing you call soul/spirit I call mind ? Either way I mean the thing that constitutes the thing you perceive yourself to be; that is why I mentioned Dasein.

 

Humans only see the world as humans because they are humans. Ants only see the world as ants because they are ants.

 

You're usage of 'see' may be limited by what your mind thinks it can think and see...  Can you see the past or future? Can you see the spirit realm?   Seeing is perceiving and beyond the physical aspect is beyond humanness. 

 

The point of this thread is just me asking what we mean when we say "Tao". Is it simply something attained through a state of surrender to ignorance? Are we talking about something we experience ?

 

Tao is simply your essence or interpreted in physical terms as an essential function of arising and returning. As long as there is a difference or separation, then it is the idea of Tao as essence and function and us as manifestation.   When there is no longer a separation then there is the Zen moment of 'mountains are mountains; mountains are not mountains'... but this is really being stuck in an understanding of singularity and not yet within the last phase where once again 'mountains are mountains'.  

 

One tries to explain the other side of the mountain to their clan... and words elude them as they have no real experience of it... once they travel to that other side, they bask in the experience of the other side... but nobody in their clan hears them... their words are only in their own mind/experience... once one travels back to the clan, then they can attempt to use the limits of language to explain something outside of what previously their language lacked.   The mind has the picture and experience but the words are lacking.    Take that example to the other side of the physical world... to realms unknown...