The meaning of Tao?

[Apech]

If you don't know what I mean by mind I cannot explain further ... I have a feeling the thing you call soul/spirit I call mind ? Either way I mean the thing that constitutes the thing you perceive yourself to be; that is why I mentioned Dasein.

 

Humans only see the world as humans because they are humans. Ants only see the world as ants because they are ants.

I only ask because 'mind' itself is an elusive concept rather as Tao is.  So to say 'it's all mind' doesn't really answer anything unless you say clearly what mind is.  For instance in Indian Philosophy there are many words for mind - citta, Buddhi, vijnana, manas and even ahamkara ... all with different emphasis and all translated as mind/consciousness and sometimes self.

 

I think asking how much we understand what we mean by "Tao" is important if you take the subject seriously. Simply as a word concept it is similar to others linguistically. Either it is something that we cannot know, but say we do, much like people say they know God but they cannot explain why. Tao is not anything like a deity though, but some people may view "God" as the force of nature something like what Tao is; of course always failing at a full explanation because it is something we cannot appreciate just as I can only be me experiencing not anyone or anything else.

 

The point of this thread is just me asking what we mean when we say "Tao". Is it simply something attained through a state of surrender to ignorance? Are we talking about something we experience ?

 

I would say you come to have an understanding of Tao through study, meditation and application ... over many years.  I don't know what you mean by surrender to ignorance.

[Marblehead]

Plot twist: If a tree falls in the woods, does anyone help it up?

Likely not.  Everyone ran away to avoid harm.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Likely not.  Everyone ran away to avoid harm.

 

I suspected as much. But it does fall into quite a linear result so it's expected, even if it is an injustice!

 

 

Since i sense no one wants to talk about hats i felt this might fit in here:

The issue of the meanig of Tao, to me today and in this certain period of exploring understanding, arises when strict principle is applied to a generalized concept or process. So we say meaning of Tao is unspeakable (sorry for misapropriation of the term) and while these unmentionables are in fact discussable it'd require perfect knowledge to have any large relevance, which i believe is impossible to achieve.

It's impossible to know everything because its an infinite and ever developing and changing set of data, all that is possible is to take a budding natural philosophers stance and let oneself be sucked into the spiral of specifics and everlasting discovery of whatever is there.

So in my ignorance it sort of boils down to probability and usefulness of said (un/re)learnings and discoveries, and who is to say any piece of learning is discardable in favour of another?

There is a point of trying to apply meta-structure to knowledge, but i'm convinced the topmost abstraction appliable to specifics is going to be "there is a whole, and within it an constant dynamic interplay of complementary forces" as represented by the tai chi symbol. Even if this whole isn't The Whole, or a hole in the boat, but only the isolated situation of a person observing something.

 

I'm afraid i make no sense, shouldn't have had that last beer tonight... XP

[Taomeow]

Here's a few exercises that can help elucidate the meaning of tao.

 

Use your right eye to look into your left eye -- without using a mirror or any other reflective surfaces. 

 

Bite your elbow.

 

Give birth to your own mother.  It is said that Laozi did.  Surely he knew the meaning of tao, since he introduced the term.

 

Take a walk on the beach and look for a piece of glass smoothed down by the waves like a pebble.  Once you've found one, find all the matching pieces of that bottle.  Once you have them all, glue that bottle whole again so that the seams disappear. 

 

It's very doable, to know the meaning of tao, but the catch is, it can only be done.  Tao is a doing.  She does things a certain way.  Once you can do things the way she does, you are it, and whatever your meaning is, is the meaning of tao. 

 

Tao has no other meaning. 

[Songtsan]

What is the meaning of the unstruck sound?

[Marblehead]

It's very doable, to know the meaning of tao, but the catch is, it can only be done.  Tao is a doing.  She does things a certain way.  Once you can do things the way she does, you are it, and whatever your meaning is, is the meaning of tao.

This reminded me of a discussion I had with Vmarco except I used the word "experienced" rather than "done".

[Marblehead]

What is the meaning of the unstruck sound?

The same meaning it had before it got stuck.

[Marblehead]

 I'm afraid i make no sense, shouldn't have had that last beer tonight... XP

Hehehe.  But still there was a bit of reasoning in there.

 

And yes, Tao is dynamic, ever-changing.  What is true today may not be true tomorrow.  What is impossible today may become possible tomorrow.

 

And yes, it is very difficult to cast aside things we have already learned (even after realizing conditions have changed and it is no longer true).

[maldor]

Apech -

 

There are many words that lack universal meaning. "Consciousness" is something that I am growing less and less fond of as a term.

 

By surrender/ignorance I mean that in order to get closer to knowing ignorance expands and surrender is necessary to surpass this wall. Every page of the Tao Te Ching to me says the same thing over and over, it kind of reminds me of something Kant said which is basically saying that to say something precisely and simply often turns out to be ambiguous and complex.

[Apech]

Apech -

 

There are many words that lack universal meaning. "Consciousness" is something that I am growing less and less fond of as a term.

 

By surrender/ignorance I mean that in order to get closer to knowing ignorance expands and surrender is necessary to surpass this wall. Every page of the Tao Te Ching to me says the same thing over and over, it kind of reminds me of something Kant said which is basically saying that to say something precisely and simply often turns out to be ambiguous and complex.

 

Ah ok ... knowing that you know nothing is an excellent thing.

 

I agree the word consciousness is not a good ally.  But the word mind is a tricky little friend also.

 

I would quote Zhuangzi about fish traps and all ... and say, as the Daoists did, that the written words are the dregs.

[Geof Nanto]

Ah ok ... knowing that you know nothing is an excellent thing.

 

I agree the word consciousness is not a good ally.  But the word mind is a tricky little friend also.

 

Many interesting comments on this thread. As to 'mind' and 'consciousness', these are great mysteries. The fact that scientists have made almost no inroads into unravelling the nature of mind and consciousness suggests the need for a fundamental reassessment of our basic assumptions.  And Daoism with its dynamic systems approach could well provide a way forward. However, it's far too complex a topic to broach here, but think of how complex life consists of multiple systems that have evolved to form a web of symbiotic relationships.

[Geof Nanto]

To my understanding the term ‘Dao’ was a fundamental concept of Chinese thought in existence long before the Daodejing and the Zhuangzi.    Simply put, it means the Way or the Track. Each of the six dominant schools of ancient Chinese thought had its own particular Way. The Confucians, for example, promoted the way of humans. Those who later became known as Daoists advocated the Way of the Way (cosmos or a universalised concept of nature), and hence what they meant by the Dao is outside and beyond containment in words and ideas (as the comments on this thread confirm).

 

Here are some more thoughts on the difficulty of defining the Dao from Arthur Waley’s Three Ways of Thought in Ancient China.

 

“It may seem strange that, as often as the term Tao appears on the foregoing pages, I have made no attempt to explain what the Taoists meant by Tao. I have purposely avoided doing so because I think that a better idea of this can be got from the anecdotes that I have translated than from any attempt at a definition. In Chuang Tzu there is, of course, no systematic exposition of what Tao is; there are only dithyrambic descriptions (chiefly in verse), similar to those in the better known Taoist book Tao Te Ching, which I have translated in The Way and Its Power. Here are one or two such passages:

 

`Tao is real, is faithful, yet does nothing and has no form. Can be handed down, yet cannot be passed from hand to hand, can be got but cannot be seen. Is its own trunk, its own root.

 

`Before Heaven and Earth existed, from the beginning Tao was there. It is Tao that gave ghosts their holy power (she'n), that gave holy power to Dead Kings. It gave life to Heaven, gave life to Earth. It can mount above the Pole-star without becoming high; it can sink below (the Springs of Death) without becoming deep. It existed before Heaven and Earth, yet has no duration; its age is greater than that of the Longest Ago, yet it does not grow old.

 

`Without it Heaven could not be high, Earth could not be wide, the sun and moon could not stay their course, the ten thousand things could not flourish.' 

 

In another passage (which unfortunately, owing to corruption of the text, becomes unintelligible at the end) we learn Tao is 'in the ant, in the broken tile, in dung, in mire.' 'Do not seek precision,' says Chuang Tzu, speaking of the realm of Tao. .. . `I myself have traversed it this way and that; yet still know only where it begins. I have roamed at will through its stupendous spaces. I know how to get to them, but I do not know where they end.’ " 

Edited May 5, 2015 by Darkstar

[shanlung]

I missed this.  Was during the time when I was standing on tip toes to get breathing space from the pile of bullshit and KPIs which exalted the beauty of the Emperor new clothings during that 66-72 hours 6 days work week.

 

Good to kick this up for all to admire our own ignorances while babbling on what cannot be described and best be babbled on.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist babbling when in mood to babble

[Wu Ming Jen]

Great, true and works (principle) the great image is imagless so this formless Tao that is a part of all forms is observable in the way nature "works" If sound comes into being because of no sound this is how Tao works. We must have zero for any number to come into existence The number is visible, the zero is un-measurable.

 

The easiest way is to not attach anything to tao and let the mind rest with no image then the mind can be peaceful and tranquil being aware of all that is. This helps to stop naming this and that. This and that are all related and unified by Tao. Without transcending the human mind, the shinning mind is undermined. The human mind split into duality is the only thing that stands in the Way.

[AussieTrees]

The Tao is nameless,and even these words cannot describe the true Tao.

 

We can observe the Tao,with patience,mindfulness,we watch and catch glimpses at play.

 

Even the worst of scenarios,have solutions,sometimes we are directly involved,the resolutions unfolding are interesting and observable,so in this way,we see the Tao.

[dawei]

The Tao is nameless,and even these words cannot describe the true Tao.

 

You used a name... nameless   but I likely agree with the latter point

 

We can observe the Tao,with patience,mindfulness,we watch and catch glimpses at play

 

We can experience Dao... in every breath... 

 

Even the worst of scenarios,have solutions,sometimes we are directly involved,the resolutions unfolding are interesting and observable,so in this way,we see the Tao.

 

There is talk of 'returning to Dao'... if this happens in this life, then we can describe it in human words; if not till we die, then we are being asked to a march to death...   Did Laozi asked folks to be martyrs with promises of marrying virgins afterlife?  Or is his message have guidance in the here-and-now?

 

On the other hand... if we try to define the idea of "life" we might not even ask these questions as it is not applicable...

[vonkrankenhaus]

Imagine the way of making a sandwich.

 

It isn't a thing.

 

It's a way.

 

Now imagine the way of everything.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus