UK General Election 2015: Who will you vote for?

[Apech]

But in terms of the outcome of an actual real life election, all these different types of not voting are the same. It's simply not voting. So the practical outcome is: those who vote are the the ones who decide what this real life situation will be next.

 

 

That is true.  But as an individual ethical being you make choices for yourself.  Which might be, I am going to keep to what I believe to be true (e.g. that politics is not something to engage with) and am willing to suffer the consequences.

[Nikolai1]

True but voting as an ethical act has two domains. We vote out of self interest, for example for he party that will tax us least. Also we may vote out to concern for other humans, so we might vote for certain foreign policies.

 

To not vote has impacts beyond the private self

[Rara]

Again, I do know where both of you are coming from. But the way I see it: what if nobody who (like us) believes in a life of compassion and balance were to vote? (Voting for the more compassionate/balanced option, whatever one thinks that is)

 

Then who would be voted in charge of things? As awful as some of the current leading party reps are, it could be a whole lot worse.

 

And it's not just about a little money for the average family. Apparently there are 900,000 people reliant on food banks here. More people, people with jobs, unable to support themselves without handouts and struggle. And let's not forget people in other countries who we, with our ruthless consumerist system, keep locked into a cycle of poverty and abuse.

 

The Tories have cut NHS spending and plan to cut education spending whilst increasing defence spending (see manifesto*). The UK makes a huge profit from selling arms overseas, including to not-very-nice countries like Saudi, UAE, Israel, Russia -- the Lib Dems and Green both actually have plans to rectify that (whether or not they'd work is another story).

 

Neither of the major parties are actually doing anything that they say they are. They're all liars. They know they can't just turn the deficit into a surplus, but seem to think that they're allowed to make that kind of claim. They should all, Labour and Tory alike, be thrown in jail for fraud, false advertising, aiding and abetting human rights abuses, et cetera...

 

So yes, I think that at some point, it does come down to apathy. You might not need politics, but politics needs everyone. The system is shit, First Past the Post doesn't work, most MPs are scumbags....blah blah.. and so you might not see a difference, not see your vote counting, but if certain parties/people were to gain power you would almost certainly feel the result. It could be a lot worse. Farage might be a joke, but if the political atmosphere turned to large-scale support of a party like UKIP, we would all be in fucking big trouble... !!

 

 

 

Anyway... hah. My intent was not to be that guy! (The guy chastising people for not voting.) In a 'free country', we should certainly feel free to vote or not, as we like. Pressuring people to vote "Because World War 2" is silly.

 

I just get a bit excited sometimes.

 

 

 

*

No that's cool, your angle is very valid my friend.

 

The answers to your quetions are in no way short-term. Quite right, if we were all apathetic, maybe some horrible fascism could take its place...but we do not know this. So many variables here and I'm willing to risk not voting with knowing that there are enough people that will keep the current establishment going (which consists of anyone with the biggest mouth and best campaign being trusted and elected while Green party remains the one party with just about a look in)

 

I believe in self-governed societies. I practice Tao and learn that this is the natural way (like I say, we are so far gone, it would be hundreds or thousands of years of undoing to get anywhere back to this) But as a practitioner, I know for one that I don't need a babysitter in politicians, officals or anyone.

 

I would feel like a hypocrite for voting.

 

I don't mind that others choose to vote. As long as you have the right to vote and I have the right to not vote (and vice versa) I'm happy that we still have the right amount of freedom still.

 

As for food banks...who are these people? I read this all the time in papers and think back to when I was unemployed with my girlfriend, living in a rented house with an overdraft sinking deeper and deeper. Yet there was still food on the table and gas in our boiler.

 

The media runs lives. I will read a paper but it's the equivalent of a comic book to me. What I see outside my window is a very different world.

[dust]

As for food banks...who are these people? I read this all the time in papers and think back to when I was unemployed with my girlfriend, living in a rented house with an overdraft sinking deeper and deeper. Yet there was still food on the table and gas in our boiler.

 

The media runs lives. I will read a paper but it's the equivalent of a comic book to me. What I see outside my window is a very different world.

 

Yeah..I've wondered that myself, to be honest. I don't know anyone who owns or rents who needs to be given food.

 

But there are, without a doubt, a lot of poor people. A lot of homeless people.

 

http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/homeless-def-numbers.html

 

 

 

In England:

• 111,960 households applied to their local authority for homelessness assistance in 2013/14, a 26 per cent rise since 2009/10.    
• Just over 52,000 were accepted as homeless and in 'priority need' - a 31 per cent rise since 2009/10

 

So, I mean...fuck it. I dunno. Nothing any of us say or do will actually make a difference...

[Rara]

Yeah..I've wondered that myself, to be honest. I don't know anyone who owns or rents who needs to be given food.

 

But there are, without a doubt, a lot of poor people. A lot of homeless people.

 

http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/homeless-def-numbers.html

 

 

 

So, I mean...fuck it. I dunno. Nothing any of us say or do will actually make a difference...

Lol, I love our convos as of late.

 

Again, if someone is homeless...daaaamn, either their parents/family hate them or they have been terribly horrible people. I don't know...again, what can we know just with info put in front of us?

[Rara]

Sorry...not countering to be an arse. I just find if we all spent time cultivating with our close families/communities as opposed to concerning ourselves with figure heads and organisations, we'd all be a bit more chill XD

[Apech]

True but voting as an ethical act has two domains. We vote out of self interest, for example for he party that will tax us least. Also we may vote out to concern for other humans, so we might vote for certain foreign policies. To not vote has impacts beyond the private self

 

 

It is my feeling that if you cultivate in any sense (I mean Daoist, Buddhist etc.) then all your actions need to be related back to your practice.  So in deciding whether to cast a vote or not to ... then the reference point should be how that act impacts on your 'energy' (for want of a better word).  This is the main consideration for me.  of course others must decide for themselves.

[zerostao]

good luck with your elections

[Apech]

... never mind didn't work

 

 

... so anyway I'm waiting for the post election right wing coup when theTories despite not winning refuse to leave 10 Downing Street.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Apech

[Apech]

Oh well ... how depressing.

[Marblehead]

I guess if you are not a conservative you lost.

 

A spot of news I scanned this morning indicated that labour worked itself out of office.  Something to do with Scotland?

[Rara]

I love how very few voted in this pole.

 

Apathy, tsk. Lol.

[Marblehead]

I would have but I'm not allowed to vote in their elections.

 

 

BTW  So far here in the States it looks like I will have to vote for Micky Mouse for president again.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Marblehead

[dust]

I just can't believe it. Well, I can. Of course I can. But I don't like it.

 

I honestly don't think most people base their decisions on anything other than the mainstream media..which is stupid. Very stupid.

[Apech]

In the end I don't think it was Scotland which caused this result but simply that Miliband was unconvincing and Labour failed to present themselves as more competent than the Tories.  I don't think it's ideology as much as wanting things well run and properly managed.

[Apech]

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/may/08/russell-brand-stages-climbdown-over-support-for-ed-miliband-labour-comedian

 

 

... Russell Brand squirming slightly ...

[Apech]

 

In a statement issued by the White House, Obama said:

 

The special and essential relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom is rooted in deep and abiding shared interests and values. I have enjoyed working closely with prime minister Cameron on a range of shared interests these last several years, and I look forward to continuing to strengthen the bonds between our countries, as we work together on behalf of global peace, security and prosperity.

 

 

...hurrah!!!!

 

[Brian]

What will be interesting will be to see if it makes any difference.

 

In the US, the voters overwhelmingly voted "conservative" and we have since learned the "establishment" of both parties were already in collusion (during the election!) to enact legislation and otherwise take steps to surrender constitutional powers to the executive, while making excuses and posturing as heroic defenders of the realm. The most recent example was yesterday, when the US Senate voted 98-1 in favor of converting treaty-approval power into treaty-review permission.

 

BTW, Apech, I would encourage you to dig out that thread you started in November about what the US election would mean and see how well I did at prognostication...

[Apech]

What will be interesting will be to see if it makes any difference.

 

In the US, the voters overwhelmingly voted "conservative" and we have since learned the "establishment" of both parties were already in collusion (during the election!) to enact legislation and otherwise take steps to surrender constitutional powers to the executive, while making excuses and posturing as heroic defenders of the realm. The most recent example was yesterday, when the US Senate voted 98-1 in favor of converting treaty-approval power into treaty-review permission.

 

BTW, Apech, I would encourage you to dig out that thread you started in November about what the US election would mean and see how well I did at prognostication...

 

 

You mean this one http://thedaobums.com/topic/36813-us-mid-term-elections/?p=590507 ?

 

Did you do well?  I haven't read it again.

 

 

I don't know if you have this effect in the US as well.  Here throughout the election campaign the opinion polls quoted the two main parties as neck and neck.  This was very consistent over the whole period and also between the various organisations.  But the exit poll on the actual night showed a lead for the Conservatives which shocked everyone and most dismissed as a fluke or error.  This happened before in 1992 in similar circumstances when the Conservatives were in office and everyone thought they would lose.  But again they didn't they won by a reasonable margin.  So I am thinking that the business interests which prefer right wing government tamper with the results to make it look like a close race.  This has the dual effect of frightening the core voters into turning out, creating scare stories about fringe parties having undue influence and putting their opponents off their guard.  So its a deliberate tactic.  I remember in the 70's a similar thing happened.

[Brian]

So if the people vote for so-called "conservative" candidates then it is because of corporate manipulation and fringe party scare tactics or a fluke but if the people vote for so-called "progressive" candidates then it is because of some sort of healthy ideological grass-roots support for noble-minded statesmen?

[C T]

You mean this one http://thedaobums.com/topic/36813-us-mid-term-elections/?p=590507 ?

 

 

 

 

I don't know if you have this effect in the US as well.  Here throughout the election campaign the opinion polls quoted the two main parties as neck and neck.  This was very consistent over the whole period and also between the various organisations.  But the exit poll on the actual night showed a lead for the Conservatives which shocked everyone and most dismissed as a fluke or error.  This happened before in 1992 in similar circumstances when the Conservatives were in office and everyone thought they would lose.  But again they didn't they won by a reasonable margin.  So I am thinking that the business interests which prefer right wing government tamper with the results to make it look like a close race.  This has the dual effect of frightening the core voters into turning out, creating scare stories about fringe parties having undue influence and putting their opponents off their guard.  So its a deliberate tactic.  I remember in the 70's a similar thing happened.

I'd be curious to know what odds the bookmakers were offering on a labour win. If the betting odds for both parties were about the same, it is almost certain the pre-election news, spins, and media reports were all masked in some way. I'd say the bookies are laughing over a nice tandoori right about now. 

[Apech]

So if the people vote for so-called "conservative" candidates then it is because of corporate manipulation and fringe party scare tactics or a fluke but if the people vote for so-called "progressive" candidates then it is because of some sort of healthy ideological grass-roots support for noble-minded statesmen?

 

Yes, well put!  

[dust]

So if the people vote for so-called "conservative" candidates then it is because of corporate manipulation and fringe party scare tactics or a fluke but if the people vote for so-called "progressive" candidates then it is because of some sort of healthy ideological grass-roots support for noble-minded statesmen?

 

People have voted Conservative, at least in part, because of scare tactics, yes. This is hardly deniable. Every flyer put through my door recently has been

"Vote Conservative or you'll be responsible for Labour forming a coalition with the SNP and the kingdom falling apart"

and

"Labour was solely responsible for the recession, Cameron has been solely responsible for economic recovery, so vote blue."

 

The first of these is a bizarre imaginary concoction that they could not possibly know. The second is pure nonsense.

 

All the major papers have been full of it. The Times, The Daily Mail (the largest paper in the world, btw), The Sun, The Telegraph.. even The Independent -- yes, in theory an independent, non-partisan paper -- backed the Conservatives at the last minute.

 

 

Lib Dems lost a huge number of seats. I saw a woman interviewed on TV in an area where Lib Dems have reigned for 23 years:

 

"In this formerly Lib Dem majority area, why have so many switched to Conservative?"

 

"Well, Lib Dems formed the coalition with the Conservatives, which wasn't good."

 

So you voted for the party you object to them forming the coalition with??! Is that logical??

 

 

 

I was watching the news with a friend who voted Conservative. Nicola Sturgeon (SNP) appeared, saying that Scotland had clearly voted for an end to austerity, and that Cameron needed to listen. My friend said,

 

"What's austerity?"

 

How the fuck are you going to vote for a party without even knowing their main platform?? Their major claim has been that they saved the economy with austerity measures! You voted for them because the Murdoch media told you how great they've been doing, didn't you, you bloody fool?

 

 

This offers an overview of the economic stuff which actually relies on figures rather than propaganda:

 

http://benjaminstudebaker.com/2015/05/02/britain-for-the-love-of-god-please-stop-david-cameron/

 

I don't believe in Labour any more than Conservative, but this is a decent argument for why Cameron should have been stopped this time around. What about the banks? Why has this become all about Labour's (supposed) fuck ups?

 

Scare tactics + propaganda.

 

 

 

If people voted for 'progressive' parties (Lib Dem, Green -- neither of which did well at all) it would have been out of a mixture of naivety and, yes, a healthy belief that some things could actually change for the better. That we could slow the tide of big business and xenophobia, improve life for the poorest, stop the bankers from fucking things up so much, etc..

Edited May 8, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

 

If people voted for 'progressive' parties (Lib Dem, Green -- neither of which did well at all) it would have been out of a mixture of naivety and, yes, a healthy belief that some things could actually change for the better. That we could slow the tide of big business and xenophobia, improve life for the poorest, stop the bankers from fucking things up so much, etc..

WoW!  You are a dreamer, aren't you?

[dust]

Apparently

 

 

   

Edited May 8, 2015 by dustybeijing