Magick is Psychology

[maldor]

Some here may find this a bold statement but I think it is true.

 

I view the practice of Magick as the discipline of self hypnosis. Altering your will to fit your means. Obviously thi scan be a dangerous practice. Also I am convinced the vast majority of mysticism is directly related to altered states of consciousness (ASC's).

 

ASC's can be induced by stress (sleep dep., fasting, solitude, intense concentration, chanting, dancing, etc.,). I believe the aim of magick is to attain these states and direct them consciuosly.

 

I understand that many people here may take a different view to me and that you all have your personal views about what magick is and what it can do. I would very much like to here what everyone has to say.

 

Thank you

[thelerner]

Maybe.  I've only dabbled lightly in Franz Bardon style Hermetics and it certainly starts with psychologically knowing and conditioning your mind.  In the early stages (and later) its certainly working with altered states.  And thats all I can attest too, as a beginner. 

 

Of late I've been playing with the idea of how far you can go to control your 'personal reality'; that is body, mind, personality, habits, life and lifestyle.  ie one can't magically make something appear but within that personal reality there's quite a bit to work with.  Our locus of control being within our body, mind and living circumstances is much greater then we realize.

 

On the third hand those who've put in real time studying and practicing seem to go beyond 'personal reality' and into changing our shared reality.  Don't think they can move mountains, but have access to ephemeral dimensions and shift odds of events.  Though proofs of such are not easy to define or nail down.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Some here may find this a bold statement but I think it is true.

 

I view the practice of Magick as the discipline of self hypnosis. Altering your will to fit your means. Obviously thi scan be a dangerous practice. Also I am convinced the vast majority of mysticism is directly related to altered states of consciousness (ASC's).

 

ASC's can be induced by stress (sleep dep., fasting, solitude, intense concentration, chanting, dancing, etc.,). I believe the aim of magick is to attain these states and direct them consciuosly.

 

I understand that many people here may take a different view to me and that you all have your personal views about what magick is and what it can do. I would very much like to here what everyone has to say.

 

Thank you

 

There is nothing particularly new or bold about this idea. Its precursor are the model's of magic rooted in Mesmerism such as Joseph Ennemoser puts forward in this early Nineteenth Century book:

 

The History of Magic (This is only to Volume One only)

 

Purely hypnotic interpretations of magic appeared very early and even A. E. Waite puts forward the idea in his Book of Ceremonial Magic ("Concerning the Mirror of Solomon", p. 318, University Books, 1961) over a hundred years ago.

 

Carroll Runyon has made it, and Jungian psychology (which you have brought up in other posts) the cornerstone of his version of magic in his Church of Hermetic Science.

 

Download a copy of an article of his that appeared in Llewellyn Publication's magazine in the late 1970s here:

 

Magick and Hypnosis

 

I don't doubt that magic is psychology, but it is a question of whose psychology.  Personally, I prefer Plotinus' psychology:

 

Plotinus on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

 

to Jungian or any reductionist psychology, derived from the Seventeenth Century revival of Epicureanism and based on unexamined presuppositions deriving from Nineteenth Century materialism.  As far as I am concerned Jung is a confused thinker caught between Nineteenth Century materialism and Romanticism.  This confusion, often not clearly defined, is one of the characteristics of a large spectrum of Western thinking from the mid-Nineteenth Century to the present.

 

And I also prefer the middle Platonist use of the term Archetype, which they originated as a reference to Plato's ideas:

 

A good introduction to Middle Platonism on the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

 

to Jung's also.  Oh, and to make it clear, I don't particularly like Runyon's version of magic either.

 

I don't have more time to devote to this, having worked these issues out a long time ago.  I have posted upon these issues here on the Dao Bums many times and anyone can use the search function to find these posts, but I hope that this short discussion is helpful to you and anyone else who may read this thread.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Added link directing to Wikipedia page to "Plato's ideas" above.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Zhongyongdaoist

[noonespecial]

Once you start working with the lvx and even more so, once the lvx starts working on you, you will realize how much bigger the mysteries are than going to a clinic for a visit with a headshrink.

[Seth Ananda]

As usual Zhongyongdaoist, Respect!

[Seth Ananda]

I do my best to completely avoid psychological interpretations of magic, or at least 'psychological only' interpretations of magic.

 

Yet I would never say that various forms of magic dont have psychological effects.

[Nungali]

Some here may find this a bold statement but I think it is true.

 

I view the practice of Magick as the discipline of self hypnosis. Altering your will to fit your means. Obviously thi scan be a dangerous practice. Also I am convinced the vast majority of mysticism is directly related to altered states of consciousness (ASC's).

 

ASC's can be induced by stress (sleep dep., fasting, solitude, intense concentration, chanting, dancing, etc.,). I believe the aim of magick is to attain these states and direct them consciuosly.

 

I understand that many people here may take a different view to me and that you all have your personal views about what magick is and what it can do. I would very much like to here what everyone has to say.

 

Thank you

 

 

The whole issue and subject here would depend on one's definition of magick ... and psychology.

 

For starters ;   " Psychology is the scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behaviour in a given context. "

 

Is 'magick' a scientific study ?  Even if it was,  are going to postulate that all Magick is 'of the human mind and its functions'.

 

To me this comes down to the bigger question ; is 'everything'  of the human mind and its functions' ?

 

IMO , no, they are an interface. They may, at times, create a reality, but that is not the source of all reality. 

[Nungali]

Here is another view Maldor ( in case you have not encountered it yet)

 

http://www.amazon.com/Daimonic-Reality-Field-Guide-Otherworld/dp/0937663093

 

and a great companion book to it 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Philosophers-Secret-Fire-Patrick-Harpur/dp/0738743135

 

( while getting those addresses , I found a site that talked about ' Demonic Possession' in the entertainment industry     ... yeah, I'd believe that !      ) 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

As usual Zhongyongdaoist, Respect!

 

Thank you Seth Ananda, the respect is mutual.

 

I do my best to completely avoid psychological interpretations of magic, or at least 'psychological only' interpretations of magic.

 

Yet I would never say that various forms of magic dont have psychological effects.

 

Unfortunately I suspect the irony of this:

 

I don't doubt that magic is psychology, but it is a question of whose psychology. Personally, I prefer Plotinus' psychology:

 

Plotinus on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

 

was lost on a lot of people because Plotinus psychology is a real psyche-ology, a study of Soul that includes the soul of the world among others.  I have a book whose charming title Soul-Sisters, certainly belies its dense text and scholarly rigor.  Probably a published doctoral thesis, its full title is Soul Sisters; A Commentary on Enneads IV 3 (27), 1-8 of Plotinus (Editions Rodopi, Amsterdam, 1980) by Wypkje Helleman-Elgersma.  It is a work on what I call the communion of all souls, for in Plotinus all souls are of the same essence and form a great family, sisters in this case because of the feminine gender of psyche in Greek.

 

What a difference from the confused "collective unconscious" of Jung, to say nothing of the many "still stuck at the beginning of the Twentieth Century neurologists" who still dominate the field.  There are of course exceptions among neurolgists and I have posted a little on them, but I don't have time to look those up, still, I did want to make a little time for you.

 

From the Plotinian perspective even "physics" is "psychological", but nonetheless "real" and "objective" as a class of interactions between our souls and the soul of the world manifesting in a rigorously mathematical form.  The series of posts that I have been doing here:

 

Astrology: Overlaying Four Directions, Zodiac Signs & ... the Tarot?!

 

Will, when I can get back to it, deal with these issues in more detail.

[Songtsan]

Some individuals are too susceptible to synchronicities though, and will find correlation between their castings and events when there are none. Word power and its ability to alter reality is significant. NLP is a good example of 'magic' - any action taken with an intent behind it could be likened to magic if it is mysterious enough in its form. There is 'form' and there is 'function.' The outer form, or ritual, disguises the intent behind the act - its function. If I alter my body temperature through visualizing a sun in my abdomen, and practicing vase breathing, is that magic? Probably not...if I do a summoning ritual and it apparently causes an effect, is that magic? I suppose, but it could all be psychosomatic...honestly, everything that can be explained shouldn't be called magic. I don't know...just my disorganized ponderings...

[Nungali]

Sometimes everything seems / is 'magical'  .... or it could be an effect of 'old age'  

 

The deeper I try to get into the 'material', the 'real'  , sciences ( regardless of through the lens of the telescope, microscope, anthropology ) the  more magical 'things' seem.   As these sciences do this, we just start bending the 'rules' a bit more, redefining the boundary of 'the real'. 

 

I have always questioned the answers a lot. Even as a kid at school, which gave me a certain reputation.  Even in year 7 I can remember a significant conversation with my science teacher:

 

" There are 3 states of matter ..... blah  blah "

 

My hand goes up . What about fire. What state of matter are the flames of a fire in ? Well, he tried, but each time I questioned his answer he got more entangled. I was just little kid trying to figure out this science stuff.  He said he would get back to me.

 

Apparently, as he said, he spent a lot of time on it and the only answer he could come up with was back .... they believed in 4 states of matter called the elements ....   and so on.

 

So of course  I  then went off looking for stuff like that.

 

Nowadays, I wouldnt have a clue about how many 'states of matter' there are that they teach kids in school about . 

 

I do see similarities between some of the concepts I read about back then ( and still do)  as the field of the sciences expands.

 

Perhaps 'reality' and it's 'laws' only exist ' between the lines' or the 'very small and the very large' , an 'area of our perceptions' and what is outside those lines, or perhaps intrudes or intersects this space is the 'magical' world ? 

 

Then again, if you dissolve those 'lines of reason'  the 'magical' world becomes 'real' and the 'real' world magical . 

 

 

( I think my  '   key is starting to wear out.) 

[Michael Sternbach]

I have always questioned the answers a lot. Even as a kid at school, which gave me a certain reputation.  Even in year 7 I can remember a significant conversation with my science teacher:

 

 

" There are 3 states of matter ..... blah  blah "

 

My hand goes up . What about fire. What state of matter are the flames of a fire in ? Well, he tried, but each time I questioned his answer he got more entangled. I was just little kid trying to figure out this science stuff.  He said he would get back to me.

 

Apparently, as he said, he spent a lot of time on it and the only answer he could come up with was back .... they believed in 4 states of matter called the elements ....   and so on.

 

So of course  I  then went off looking for stuff like that.

 

Nowadays, I wouldnt have a clue about how many 'states of matter' there are that they teach kids in school about .

 

There are four states of matter, and it is remarkable that the fourth state, plasma, is in fact what a flame consists of. The ancients got it right with their four elements, and that's just one of many examples where a basic assumption of Magick has its equivalent in objective reality as shown by modern science.

[maldor]

Nungali -

 

"To me this comes down to the bigger question ; is 'everything'  of the human mind and its functions' ?"

 

That sounds very much like solipism. To which I would answer no. Our perspective of the world, and the very idea of world, is of the human mind.

 

Songtan -

 

"I suppose, but it could all be psychosomatic...honestly, everything that can be explained shouldn't be called magic."

 

If it cannot be explined to what degree? If we then find in the future that it can be explained sufficiently does magic become none magic. I think it is dangerous to take something unknown as magical ... but that said I guess life is "magical" and a mystery to us all

 

Zhong... -

 

"There is nothing particularly new or bold about this idea."

 

Never said it was new but assumed it was bold here because when I posted this elsewhere I was met with hostility. Glad to hear you say it is not bold it gives me reason to stay with this site.

 

You seem a little against Jung's ideas ? I am certainly not in favour of all of his pieces (I have only read a few). I do find Archetypes and teh collective unconscious very useful myself. Probably his most misused and misunderstood concept is that of the collective unconscious.

 

Not familiar with Plotinus. My philosophical reading list only touches on Plato, Aristotle, Heidegger, Neiztsche and Husserl. Can you suggest something by Plotinus in reference to his "psychology" ?

[noonespecial]

NM

Edited May 2, 2015 by noonespecial

[maldor]

Noonespecial -

 

You can believe what you choose. The "demons and angels" are not you they are part of the conglomerate that makes you I suspect.

 

I have had a three way conversation with these. It would be refered to psychologically as psychosis. The thing is a managed to rationalise the situation at one point and have an intriguing conversation with these things that had risen from my unconscious into the form they did. It was very interesting, although scary at the same time.

 

What I believe and what you believe are only versions of what is.

[noonespecial]

Noonespecial -

 

You can believe what you choose. The "demons and angels" are not you they are part of the conglomerate that makes you I suspect.

 

I have had a three way conversation with these. It would be refered to psychologically as psychosis. The thing is a managed to rationalise the situation at one point and have an intriguing conversation with these things that had risen from my unconscious into the form they did. It was very interesting, although scary at the same time.

 

What I believe and what you believe are only versions of what is.

Fair enoguh.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Maldor, you may find the link to the Van Dusen paper which Nungali posted here:

 

Some view then as psychological forces or drives, syndromes or problems . They can be seen as psychological forces projected 'outside' of the self ... or originating outside of the self.

Some classify them as 'good' or 'bad' http://www.searchwithin.org/download/presence_spirits.pdf . However VanDusen's "hallucinations of a good order' may be more correctly considered INvocation from the view of magic ... VanDusen deals with cases of 'inadvertent' 'invocation' and 'evocation' .

So ; yes and no ... working to balance the psyche is, I supposed wanting to 'get' something. But conversely, balance can mean loosing something ... or giving it up ... or sharing .

interesting in light of your experiences recounted here:
 

I have had a three way conversation with these. It would be refered to psychologically as psychosis. The thing is a managed to rationalise the situation at one point and have an intriguing conversation with these things that had risen from my unconscious into the form they did. It was very interesting, although scary at the same time.

[Nungali]

That usually happens 'within the unconscious'  ( or 'while' unconscious )

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS4FVP-uFI

 

 

Perhaps magic is about bringing the dialogue into consciousness and being aware of how to keep the conversation 'in order'   ? 

[noonespecial]

That usually happens 'within the unconscious'  ( or 'while' unconscious )

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS4FVP-uFI

 

 

Perhaps magic is about bringing the dialogue into consciousness and being aware of how to keep the conversation 'in order'   ? 

 

For the neophyte that is the benefit of qabalah, tarot, jungian psych etc., a compartamentalizing of the workings of the mind, dissolving and coagulating these distinct parts as needed. But this is not what I would call magick, nothing the OP or really anyone here has said is really magick, even within occult schools there is little disitinction between what can best be called active imagination, pathworking and full blown, 'holy sh1t, I'm no longer in my physical body, there it is on the couch, now what!?!?!' -

 

This is magick, this is why excercises like the middle pillar or those of the secret of the golden flower are important, you are building an actual vehicle to operate on these levels of being -  this is no longer subjective, you may even run into your next door neighbor, perhaps he is dreaming of your wife and there he is in the bedroom - what is the secret of lab alchemy, it is working in your lab, on physcial substances but on the etheric level, what is the secret of ascension, it is rising on the planes and willfully controling the destination and outcome of the outing, etc, obviously in regards to black magick you can see how dangerous this power, willfully controlled, can be. Indeed, the image of the witch on the broomstick...and the solution, the redemption of matter by the Light, the Shin, the transformation of the tetragramton into the pentagramton, YHShVH. What is it, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." My suspicions based on experience is this is very much true, but that is neither here nor there.

Edited May 2, 2015 by noonespecial

[maldor]

"This is magick, this is why excercises like the middle pillar or those of the secret of the golden flower are important, you are building an actual vehicle to operate on these levels of being -  this is no longer subjective"

 

 

This is active imagination. You create the experience, or rather you access the subconscious in combination with your conscious creation.

 

The 'holy shit I am no longer in my physical body" does not mean you are actually outside your body you just think you are. There are numerous explainable illusional such as this.

[maldor]

Also to add I am saying that Magick is the willful experience of these things rather than an accidentally induced neurological phenomena.

[Seth Ananda]

This is active imagination. You create the experience, or rather you access the subconscious in combination with your conscious creation.

That is one way of looking at it, but far from the only way.

The 'holy shit I am no longer in my physical body" does not mean you are actually outside your body you just think you are. There are numerous explainable illusional such as this.

Thats all well and good until you find yourself out of body, witnessing a friends dinner party and can recount the conversations, including jokes and messup punchlines, conversations with funny interruptions and the food they were eating. 

Edited May 3, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[maldor]

Seth -

 

I am willing to believe but have not experienced this first hand. I think everyone would like to believe these things but that in itself makes me skeptical until I experience it myself.

 

I have had experiences that are strange and impossible to explain to others. I cannot believe something just because someone tells me it is so. I think these kind of areas are not openly talked about much because they are not the norm and they are often surrounded by frauds, or simply delusional people.

 

If they were in the next room that is easy to explain. If they were far away from you ... then I am stumped.

[blue eyed snake]

Seth -

 

I am willing to believe but have not experienced this first hand. I think everyone would like to believe these things but that in itself makes me skeptical until I experience it myself.

 

I have had experiences that are strange and impossible to explain to others. I cannot believe something just because someone tells me it is so. I think these kind of areas are not openly talked about much because they are not the norm and they are often surrounded by frauds, or simply delusional people.

 

If they were in the next room that is easy to explain. If they were far away from you ... then I am stumped.

 

there's at least one other reason that those experiences arent talked about a lot.

 

because people don't believe it, don't want to believe it and when you tell them about it think you're of your rockers...I don't tell anybody about this kind of things, not anymore

 

So one of the reasons I don't do that is because of people  who come with psychological explanations , thereby not only painfully not believing what i'm telling them, but also intruding in what is my field of expertise, not theirs...

 

so, i don't tell people, i did it, innocently, as a child, and got bullied and tainted.

I've tried it as a grown-up, with the most sensitive people i knew and got nowhere. I can communicate about it with my teacher, with some of my fellowstudents, and here I can write about it. A nice place this is, a lot of openminded people around.

 

I suppose it's like that for more people.

 

You don't need to believe me or Seth or whoever here, that's your choice.

 

But at the same time you write you have had experiences that are strange and impossible to explain to others. Gives me the idea you're looking here for explanations outside of the realm of modern psychology? Or what?

 

edit,

 

reading again your posts ....

Most things that happen to me, there is no will whatsoever from my person, it just happens. I've never asked for it, it's becoming stronger so I've just got to learn to deal with it. I never wanted it i can assure you that...

Edited May 3, 2015 by blue eyed snake

[maldor]

I am just looking for explanations. There are numerous studies in neuroscience that show many strange phenomena of human perception, language, consciousness, learning, cross-sensory perception, etc.,. Neuroscience has taken a huge jump ove rthe past couple of decades and there are many avenues to investigate.

 

There are many things I would like to believe humans are capable of. When it comes to the actually use of Magick I am referring to the methodology of ritual being mnemonic in nature as to give access to certain states of consciousness.

 

Memory is flexible. That is just the way it is. Fear to fit in socially is always a hindrance known by all.

 

I know one thing for certain. Psychiatrists have absolutely no idea what psychosis is if they have never experienced it firsthand.

 

Also psychology is often referred to as a "soft science". Neuroscience is putting more empirical weight into some ideas and showing them to be useful or otherwise.

 

When I tell some people it is possible to control a computer by thought alone they don't think it is possible when you can do so today with the correct technology. There is evidence that manipulating the brain with magnetic pulses increases the ability to learn complex motor functions more quickly (such as playing the guitar).

 

If we are unable to explain something I would not say it is magick. I would say we are ignorant about it. Newton was regarded as a magician at one point because of this mysterious force "gravity". Now we accept gravity even though we have no real idea what it is only how it functions. If we cannot relate phenomena to other phenomena there is nothing to work with other than guess work and speculation as to what is happening. Some ideas may prove more fruitful than others.

 

I want simply to get back what I had. From what I have read some people call it psychosis and others call it enlightenment.