Magick is Psychology

[noonespecial]

The question is, why do you care? There are explanantions, but you would not accept them because they do not qualify as mainstram science. It's sounds like you have other issues to work out until you dabble with what might really send you over the the cliff.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I want simply to get back what I had. From what I have read some people call it psychosis and others call it enlightenment. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

  

The question is, why do you care? There are explanantions, but you would not accept them because they do not qualify as mainstram science. It's sounds like you have other issues to work out until you dabble with what might really send you over the the cliff. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

From what I can tell, based in his posts, maldor, has already been "over the cliff", he wants to "get back what he had", but he wants to have a good reason or reasons to believe to believe that it is "real" and not just the delusions of a brain gone wacko.  It is only because I think that this is probably true that I am at all willing to post in answer to him and would ask that people assume that this is true, at least for now, and be a little more patient here.

[noonespecial]

I guess thats one of the results of internalizing everything. Lot's of pressure I would imagine.

[maldor]

Insanity is relative. I know that much.

 

My experience was the most "real" experience I have had. I could "see" and "read" everything around me with absolute clarity. I would cry because a crack in the pavement was so beautiful and could not explain to anyone why it was because they were obviously blind to it.

 

Delusional or not it felt more "real" than "real" ... so to speak

[Songtsan]

Feelings are always lies, even if they approach Reality, they are always delusional to a degree. Doesn't mean they aren't useful...still, they are nothing special

[maldor]

Feelings are always lies, even if they approach Reality, they are always delusional to a degree. Doesn't mean they aren't useful...still, they are nothing special

 

What does that mean? Your life is a lie ? Existence is a lie ? What do you mean "lie"?

[noonespecial]

What does that mean? Your life is a lie ? Existence is a lie ? What do you mean "lie"?

 

Did you even read what he posted? I mean this in all sincerity, are you on medication of some sort?

[Nungali]

Insanity is relative. I know that much.

 

My experience was the most "real" experience I have had. I could "see" and "read" everything around me with absolute clarity. I would cry because a crack in the pavement was so beautiful and could not explain to anyone why it was because they were obviously blind to it.

 

Delusional or not it felt more "real" than "real" ... so to speak

 

Of course its real  ... just as real as anything else    .   But this is why we have 'filters' .

 

Perhaps 'getting back' is a matter of learning how to operate the filters ?

 

 I had similar experience as you , not so much with pavement cracks but each blade of grass, the colour of the sky, the smells coming out from the rain forest, the first rays of dawn lighting the trees and mist ... I was in tripped out ecstasy   (yep, pretty much like all the good stuff and non of the urkey stuff - like stomach  - from the good old days of pure Swiss LSD).  

 

This happened a few years back after a bout of serious ill health and the doctors told me, my condition had flared up and I might only have a few months left.  I accepted that as I have had such a great and satisfying life already. Then the 'mystic wonder' / visionary stuff really came on strong!  

 

That   eventuated  as mis-diagnosis, another 20 year 'lease', a different healing approach that cured most of the problems, a new young GF with 3 young  kids and me instantly hurled into family life with babies and everything !  Some thing I have never experienced before.  That ,at times, tended to take me away from the state, the  'in the moment wonderland' ( some of the 'relationship dynamics' not the young kids - they are great for sharing that 'wonderland space' ! ) .

 

I noticed when I was 'In it' (that space) it was near impossible to deal with dicks, go to the supermarket, etc   and when I could do that, I had lost the space.

 

Over time I learnt how to 'open and close the shutters' as it where.    I can re-enter that space  ( but I do have a really nice natural environment around me).  At times, I can even be in it in the supermarket - to an extent - one doesnt want to come home with only 10kg of broccoli  because it is so beautiful     ) .   But I cant really explain how I came to be able to do that .... I know it took time , and there must have been some original proclivity in my make up.  

 

I can think also, of a whole lot of meditations, rituals and visualisations I did , also the 'dharma'  (in the sense of, you do 'certain works' - 'certain results' will follow, sometimes years later). At the time, these accrued latter results were not apparent, they are now.     Perhaps it is a matter of selection of the right techniques for the specific person ? 

 

B E S  makes a good point  above about revealing stuff. At one stage, contact with 'other world personified nature energies' was so strong, I began building them a spirit house. Some people though that was great and wanted one for their garden. Other people I just said it was 'pixie house' , some I told I was 'working on a model'.  When I left the house the owner said to take it out the garden and take it with me as It was mine. I said it was a gift for the garden.    I think she may have dumped it after I left.... I would not want to be in her shoes  after that (and  her cutting down the beautiful old tree in the garden, for no reason whatsoever but, as she said, she didnt 'like it'  - which was the cause of the 'trouble' / disturbances in the first place !     ) 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Not familiar with Plotinus. My philosophical reading list only touches on Plato, Aristotle, Heidegger, Neiztsche and Husserl. Can you suggest something by Plotinus in reference to his "psychology" ?  (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

I have given considerable thought to the above request, as well as reviewing a few books in my library and trying to find some online references that might be good. I found this site which is a fair, quick scratching of the surface:

 

Hen scratchings on the subject of Plotinus

 

The links on the site go to relevant quotes from Plotinus' writings.

 

Plotinus work, the Enneads is best considered a collection of lecture/commentaries on aspects of Plato which Plotinus, after his years of teaching, thought were most significant. I have books that have sections devoted to the “Soul”, but the “Soul” only makes sense within the context of his whole system, some are good some are fair. I chose two to recommend, one in particular after reading this:

 

I could "see" and "read" everything around me with absolute clarity. I would cry because a crack in the pavement was so beautiful and could not explain to anyone why it was because they were obviously blind to it. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Which is Form and Transformation by Frederic M. Schroeder, I thought of this particularly in light of your experience because he deals with Plotinus' aesthetics and has created a work that is both profound, well written and even in some places, beautifully written.

 

Google Books page on Form and Transformation

 

Here is the summary, which is worth quoting:

 

The Platonic Form is often presented as an instrument of explanation and as a cause in ontology, epistemology, and ethics. As such, it is usually approached from the perspective of its relations to the particulars of the sensible world. Frederic Schroeder contends that Plotinus argues for the sovereignty of the Platonic Form both as a ground of being and as an intrinsically valuable object of intellective and spiritual vision. These two aspects coalesce in the thought of Plotinus, for whom the Form is, apart from its philosophical uses, an object of enjoyment. Schroeder argues also that the particular must be seen as having an intrinsic character, distinct from its relationship to the Form or to other particulars. The particular thus becomes a window on the world of Form. In the course of his exploration of the sovereignty of Form, Schroeder examines the themes of illumination, silence, language, and love. He undertakes an immanent interpretation of the Plotinian text, showing how Plotinian vocabulary displays intricate internal connections and genetic relationships. Schroeder shows that Plotinus' thought is not susceptible to organization into a closed, linear synthesis but has its own order, centred on the conviction that Form is of intrinsic value and that it is only from the perspective of this intrinsic value that we can understand its uses and significance in explanation and causation. Rather than trying to construct such a synthesis, Schroeder, starting from this basic insight into Plotinus' understanding of the Platonic Form, leads the reader to a greater understanding of Plotinus' manner of philosophizing.

 

The other book is Nature, Contemplation and the One, by John Deck

 

Nature, Contemplation and the One on Amazon

 

The second review, by Brian C., is very good.

 

At the beginning, my serious study of Plato and the Platonists, which started around 1977, was purely for historical reasons, in order to better understand the worldview of the Renaissance author on Magic, Cornelius Agrippa. During this research I read an essay by Harold Cherniss which was to open up the prospect that there might actually be some intrinsic merit to Plato, et. al., this can be read here:

 

The Philosophical Economy of the Theory of Ideas, by Harold Cherniss on scribd

 

And is definitely worth a read, because it shows how the Platonic doctrine of ideas can unify ontology, epistemology and ethics. I thought this idea was worth investigating and over a period of several years realized that Cherniss was correct in his assertion. This was an important part of my taking Platonism as my basic “working model” of reality.

 

I hope this is helpful.

[liminal_luke]

I may be way out of my depth here, but....I thought magic was about developing relationships with spirits, angels and demons and so on.  And then being able to ask them to do favors for you, which under the right magical circumstances they´d be glad to oblige.  Am I way off here?

 

For this reason, I haven´t been so interested.  I believe in the existence of such spirits, and trust that when I get to a certain point in my training I´ll become more aware of their existence.  But I personally don´t want to chase after such experiences.  Maybe it´s just stubborn self-sufficiency: I´m more interested in figuring out what I can do strictly on my own, without help from other beings seen or unseen. 

 

I want to become more integrated in my being so that what the little-me says I want more closely aligns with what my larger SELF needs on a destiny level.  As it is now, recruiting spirits to do my bidding doesn´t seem like such a good idea because I´m not really sure what I want is what I need.  Does that make sense?

 

Perhaps though, there´s something to this whole magic thing I´m not seeing.  I am interested in Tarot.  Not sure if that´s magic or not.

 

Liminal

Edited May 4, 2015 by liminal_luke

[noonespecial]

recruiting spirits to do my bidding doesn´t seem like such a good idea because I´m not really sure what I want is what I need.  Does that make sense?

 

Never a good idea, like all things in life, if you want a job done right, do it yourself. Likewise, my mom told me never to let strangers in the house.

Edited May 4, 2015 by noonespecial

[Songtsan]

Its not their fault we can't see them. Unfortunately, in order to receive the benefits of spirit helpers, you must open you channels up to both. In the beginning, depending on the nature of your psyche, various spirits will be interested in interacting with you to see what you are like. If you are not 'up to code,' so to speak, the cool ones won't want to cast pearls your way, because to them you are a swine. The ugly ones will be happy to play games with you. Purify yourself first before opening those gates, and awesome shit will happen, or just go ahead and do it anyways and see the law of 'like attracts like' in effect.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Songtsan

[noonespecial]

see the law of 'like attracts like' in effect.

 

So true my friend.

[maldor]

I may be way out of my depth here, but....I thought magic was about developing relationships with spirits, angels and demons and so on.  And then being able to ask them to do favors for you, which under the right magical circumstances they´d be glad to oblige.  Am I way off here?

 

Liminal

 

This is my personal view. Some people view these "angels/demons" as entities separate from themselves whereas I view them as entities of the unconscious rising into conscious experience. I believe we use whatever is at hand to personify these entities. Jung remarks upon this by pointing out that alien abductions only began to be reported once the idea of ET was in the social media. The underlying experience was previously interpretated as demons/angels prior to sci-fi.

 

The point being here is that there is an underlying human condition that is recognised by relating it to current social myths.

 

The entity from my perspective is an entity of the mind. There are case studies that show how one brain can have two distinct personalities. In split brain patients this is very apparent (Not merely talking about multiple personality disorder).

[Nungali]

Likewise we can see that we interpret things by what we know ( e.g. a report of a first European landing;  some clouds came over the sea  ( ships sails coming up over the horizon) and stopped out in the ocean, out of it came a water insect walking across the water  ( a long boat with oars) and men got out of it. 

 

I extend that concept the way you do above  ( and there is a magnificent book I read once that does this throughout our history, it tracks developments in spiritual cosmology and 'scientific' discoveries and how they effected interpretations of current psychological themes - but I can for the like of me remember title or author    )  to  - we are used to dealing with people and personalities, so we often give 'energies' and forces a personality or identity to be able to relate to them. When we become 'fractured' or 'alienated' misunderstood or unidentified parts of the self are given or assume such 'separate' personalities'.

 

On the other hand , is our 'psyche' so much 'contained' within ourselves ?   I think not.  We 'spread out', we are connected with many forces, we stand at the crossroads. Are we going to think that what 'constitutes us' is sealed up in a membrane, a little unit of 'self' ?  In my experience, no. 

 

How does one 'connect' with something without partly being that thing itself ?   

 

Where does the Sun 'end' ... what is the limit of  itself ?   Just what we can see visually as a fiery sphere ?  Or are we inside the greater sphere of its influence?

 

The same  with the unconscious ... or, I prefer here, the 'soul' - the 'personality' of the 'unconscious' * , it may well  include  components  from 'outside' . 

 

* 

 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Nungali

[liminal_luke]

So spirits are, in one view, projections of parts of ourselves that we have externalized?  Would learning to do magic then be similar to the shamanic practice of soul retrieval?  Are we reconnecting inside with these aspects of our being that we´d previously denied?

 

If so, that sounds very psychological.  Sounds not very different from much spiritual practice generally.  Is this the way experienced magicians experience it?

[noonespecial]

Check this out, there are objective beings in objective worlds that we cannot see. It's literally that simple.

[maldor]

The whole "outside"/"inside" thing is pretty meaningless. There is an underlying reality that we have some interaction with. We can refer to this as "outside" but we can never know the "outside" (underlying reality). We experience perceptual interpretations of this underlying reality.

 

Sorry kind of stepping more into philosophy here. I do feel it is important to consider these things though in order to feel around around and distinguish what is practical, possible, likely and desirable. The problem is that the more you think about it most things tend to blend these into one. For this reason alone our view of the world is our view and our view only. That is not to say we are completely isolated because in order to exist interaction is required. No solipsism here!

 

My point remains that although I am not in favour of solipsism I am only able to compare eveyrthing I experience with my experience. I am the vessel of a contained experience that has the power of imagination/empathy to put myself, theoretically, in the position of other experiencing beings.

 

What I am trying to propose in this thread is that magick is the willful self manipulation of imagination in order to order and integrate higher meaning and understanding of "self".

 

liminal -

 

Just want to make clear my view here is probably not the view of the majority here. I am someone who has been fascinated by religious/occult practices for some time. I am certainly not an authority on this subject and not, in the strict sense, a practitioner of magick.

 

I am pretty convinced that all "religion" (no better word to use) is founded on shamanic (no better word to use) practice. Shamanic practice is very human and found in all human culture. It is a human attribute. The way I see it it is the earliest "neuroscience" and over time mnemonic techniques and oral tradition has altered it into the strange thing today currently called religion.

 

If you are interested in any of this I would recommend reading "Inside the Neolithic Mind" or better still "Prehistory: The making of the human mind" by renowned anthropologist Colin Renfrew, the guy who gave modern neuroanthropology serious consideration.

 

Of course scientists generally don't speculate much. In psychology they do tend to speculate much more because the subjects they deal with lack strict empirical methodology (it is far removed from physics!).

[noonespecial]

The whole "outside"/"inside" thing is pretty meaningless.

 

WELL SAID FRIEND

[Seth Ananda]

I may be way out of my depth here, but....I thought magic was about developing relationships with spirits, angels and demons and so on.  And then being able to ask them to do favors for you, which under the right magical circumstances they´d be glad to oblige.  Am I way off here?

 

Its hard to talk about magic as which magic are you referring to? There is the magic of here, there, these people, that group ect. That said, for me what you describe is just the surface appearance of the spirit work type of magic.

 

You can use magic just to acquire things, but the deeper reason for these practices is to start associating with the deeper level of life, where the interconnected nature of the universe is clearly seen, and to once again be in relationship with the forces that surround us.  

For this reason, I haven´t been so interested.  I believe in the existence of such spirits, and trust that when I get to a certain point in my training I´ll become more aware of their existence.  But I personally don´t want to chase after such experiences.  Maybe it´s just stubborn self-sufficiency: I´m more interested in figuring out what I can do strictly on my own, without help from other beings seen or unseen. 

 

Thats fair, if your perception of why not to get involved is based on your above statements.

If however you see a deeper purpose to such practices, which for me there is, then they suddenly become quite profound.

I want to become more integrated in my being so that what the little-me says I want more closely aligns with what my larger SELF needs on a destiny level.  As it is now, recruiting spirits to do my bidding doesn´t seem like such a good idea because I´m not really sure what I want is what I need.  Does that make sense?

 

Perhaps though, there´s something to this whole magic thing I´m not seeing. 

Perhaps there is.

I am interested in Tarot.  Not sure if that´s magic or not.

A method for learning to hone your intuition among things. 

Liminal

Edited May 5, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Nungali]

So spirits are, in one view, projections of parts of ourselves that we have externalized? 

 

In my experience and studies, most certainly !

 

But in some cases I think they can be otherwise.  The issue is, as Seth points out above with 'what type of magic' ...

what type of spirits'.  So far the conversation topic has been pretty broad and undefined. But we have flowed along through that.

 

besides, I rarely have a strong  one- sided view of things and 'reality'.  If you read the fairly brief extract in the  Dr vanDusen paper above that Donald linked to, you will see some of the indicators and qualities of the two types of  'spirits' he talks about. One distinction is this very quality of one type only knows what the patient knows, but another type seems to have knowledge beyond the patient's ... and other related  matters.

 

Some of these distinctions qualities and tests, make up some of the 'rules' or practices of one type of magic. 

 

Of course, to get further into that, the source of these 'higher' ....  'personified energies'  ... being 'external' it does become more philosophical.  One view that deals with this issue ( that  I like ) is in Exo-psychology where there is 8 levels of consciousness of the self, with each level having an equivalent location in the physiology ( hind brain, frontal lobe, cell genetics, etc ) , the highest level is said to be ' non local' . 

 

 

Would learning to do magic then be similar to the shamanic practice of soul retrieval? 

 

Not really because there is that 'magic' generalisation again. I would say that shamanic practice is a type of magic. 

 

 

Are we reconnecting inside with these aspects of our being that we´d previously denied?

 

Oooooo   ... we just went from Psyche ( soul) opening that 'Golden Box' , above ^ ,   to Pandora and another type of box ! 

 

I think we have to connect inside with the aspect ( we can  become 'fractured' and 'alienated' )  and then reconnection is required. but some things we might need de-connection with. I see this totally different to shamanic soul retrieval  and loosing the soul.  But the soul connection is broken anyway (thats what the myth of Psyche is about, and getting that connection back) .

 

We function with a broken connection nowadays ... most of us ... in the 'machine' .  When the connection is gone, the person is like a zombie. 

 

Soul 'mucks up' a bit when it is not acknowledged,  when it expresses itself and finds happiness  and is given appreciation, it blossoms. 

 

Then again, I know what I mean when I use the term 'soul'. it might be far from others concepts. 

 

Its a large complex subject and I try to be brief. 

 

 

If so, that sounds very psychological.  Sounds not very different from much spiritual practice generally.  Is this the way experienced magicians experience it?

 

It is an experience of part of it.  I think psychology is a way of looking at part of the dynamics of magic.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

What I am trying to propose in this thread is that magick is the willful self manipulation of imagination in order to order and integrate higher meaning and understanding of "self".

 

I agree. soul and imagination, in a way, are the same thing.  In Harpur's Book 'The Philosopher's Secret Fire' (an essential read here, I think)  he makes a good case  for identifying this secret fire as the 'imagination'.  (And again, we might have as different an understanding of imagination as we do of soul. ) 

 

But if we have a 'soul' and there is a 'world soul'. would not that 'external level '  of the 'Anima Mundi'  have an 'imaginative soul' as well ? 

 

 

 

liminal -

 

Just want to make clear my view here is probably not the view of the majority here. I am someone who has been fascinated by religious/occult practices for some time. I am certainly not an authority on this subject and not, in the strict sense, a practitioner of magick.

 

I am pretty convinced that all "religion" (no better word to use) is founded on shamanic (no better word to use) practice. Shamanic practice is very human and found in all human culture. It is a human attribute. The way I see it it is the earliest "neuroscience" and over time mnemonic techniques and oral tradition has altered it into the strange thing today currently called religion.

 

I agree , once we remove a lot of the  political content of religion.   And some take it further back (picking up yoga along the way) to psychotropic drugs.   ( Ethnobotany)

 

If you are interested in any of this I would recommend reading "Inside the Neolithic Mind" or better still "Prehistory: The making of the human mind" by renowned anthropologist Colin Renfrew, the guy who gave modern neuroanthropology serious consideration.

 

Thanks ! 

     

 

Of course scientists generally don't speculate much. In psychology they do tend to speculate much more because the subjects they deal with lack strict empirical methodology (it is far removed from physics!).

 

 

 

Until one gets to 'psychotic' explanations when it approaches the 'boundary' of 'Quantum'    .... like the Universe has multiple personality syndrome  

[Taomeow]

Arthur C. Clarke:  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

 

Our current understanding of what "technology" is owes its existence to a cultural meme artificially implanted into the collective psychology, displacing everyone's chance for a solid classical education in far more advanced technologies, of which magic is a prominent one.  This invasive implant -- "technology means something of artificial origins" -- sits on the collective mind like a saddle on a cow, but we haven't noticed yet how ill-fitting this contraption is because it's very new.  The idea to denounce magic as part of mass public reeducaton is only 140-150 years old, made in Germany, a feat of social engineering second to none.  However, for two million years prior to the fact, we always used this technology -- universally imposed ignorance in its methods and capabilities is a ridiculously recent and wholly unnaturally created phenomenon. 

 

Time will tell how well we do without.  Considering the ruling elites never stopped using it, not for a second, one can view the disappearance of magical knowledge from circulation on a lower social level as yet another example of the continuous redistribution of wealth, power and privilege, magic being reserved for the wealthy, powerful and privileged to an even greater extent than private jets, private islands, and privately owned armies.  In other words, it's technological inequality created artificially, like any other. 

 

A couple of quick book recommendations on the subject --by Peter Levenda:

Unholy Alliance: A History of Nazi Involvement with the Occult

Sinister Forces--The Nine: A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft

Edited May 5, 2015 by Taomeow

[Michael Sternbach]

But if we have a 'soul' and there is a 'world soul'. would not that 'external level '  of the 'Anima Mundi'  have an 'imaginative soul' as well ? 

 

In fact, just like a human individual, the "magical cosmos" can perhaps most simply be differentiated into

• Corpus Mundi - The Body of the World - Earth - Human equivalent: Body - Element Earth
• Anima Mundi - The Soul of the World - Planets - H. e.: The subconscious - Element Water
• Spiritus Mundi - The Mind of the World - Fixed Stars - H. e.: The conscious personality - Element Air
• Unus Mundus - The Source of the World - Prime Mover (Infinity) - H. e.: The superconscious - Element Fire

Of course, all these levels have their own sub-levels.

 

This is a bit compiled from various sources and mixed up with my own thoughts. Some popular versions leave the fourth level out which I here call Unus Mundus (borrowing a term from Duns Scot) and which Plotinus calls The One (thank you, ZYD, for this hint).

 

Of course, to get further into that, the source of these 'higher' ....  'personified energies'  ... being 'external' it does become more philosophical.  One view that deals with this issue ( that  I like ) is in Exo-psychology where there is 8 levels of consciousness of the self, with each level having an equivalent location in the physiology ( hind brain, frontal lobe, cell genetics, etc ) , the highest level is said to be ' non local' .

 

Based on above model, it makes sense to assume that eventually, the individual on its highest "infinite" level blends with the Source as there can be only one Infinity.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[FraterUFA]

 Some people view these "angels/demons" as entities separate from themselves whereas I view them as entities of the unconscious rising into conscious experience.

 

Same thing.

 

Best,

UFA