in this world one has to earn the right to know who they are

[MooNiNite]

how messed up is that?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

can you expound? "earn the right to know self"???

I cannot even comprehend this.

[soaring crane]

ditto

[Marblehead]

I'm sure MooNiNite will enlighten us as soon as the moon comes out.

 

(But I agree if he is suggesting what I think he is suggesting.)

[MooNiNite]

Enlightenment is only the beginning. 

 

When one reaches enlightenment, or embodiment. They know who they are. 

because they become who they are experientially

 

 

 

 

However, it isn't entirely black and white, people have experiential shifts before awakening when they are connecting to their spirit-soul...so there are clues..

[Marblehead]

Enlightenment is only the beginning. 

 

When one reaches enlightenment, or embodiment. They know who they are. 

because they become who they are experientially

Absolutely.  Enlightenment is only the beginning.  That is why I have never placed any great emphasis on enlightenment.

 

After enlightenment we each have to do our own work.  And yes, that comes through experiences.  Both the successes and the failures.  Now we can do our best to be the person we think we should be.  And this is a lot of work too.

 

However, it isn't entirely black and white, people have experiential shifts before awakening when they are connecting to their spirit-soul...so there are clues..

Nothing is black and white except for the Tai Chi symbol.  All else are shades of grey.

 

I use the term "inner essence" rather than "spirit-soul" but it doesn't matter what label we put on it.

[3bob]

an after and before per-se does not exist for "enlightenment" so forget about a related, attached and dependent time line for same...  as for doing something such is only apparent since spirit is doing everything, thus whatever is left so to speak is witness to that.

[MooNiNite]

an after and before per-se does not exist for "enlightenment" so forget about a related, attached and dependent time line for same...  as for doing something such is only apparent since spirit is doing everything, thus whatever is left so to speak is witness to that.

 

i think of it as an attainment. an actual occurrence.

[3bob]

an attainment by who or what,  thus a human being looking from the outside in is not the same as spirit looking from the inside out ... (so to speak - and meaning that the spirit realizes it is not limited to a human type of form but that it only works through same)

[MooNiNite]

an attainment by who or what,  thus a human being looking from the outside in is not the same as spirit looking from the inside out ... (so to speak - and meaning that the spirit realizes it is not limited to a human type of form but that it only works through same)

 

Well i believe all masters were once human and then evolved beyond

 

Just as all humans were probably once animals.

 

A path of evolution. Enlightenment, or embodiment is expanding beyond the human form, a breaking free. They are only human in the sense that they continue to operate in that vessel. Normal humans can't go in and out at will, they are trapped..

 

One is in less of a bind the more expansive they become

[3bob]

MooNiNite, I'd say your last post sounds logical but in fact we don't evolve into what we already are which is spirit or Atman if you will...then again if you are talking about relative evolution of various and different forms or vehicles (something which we really are not and that live and die) then yes forms do evolve and also devolve.  Humans per-se are not trapped for it is spirit that is caught up in limited identification as a this or that form which has relative degrees of freedom - or not. 

[Seth Ananda]

I think that people who think they know themselves, are either quite mistaken, or are incredibly shallow.

 

Sure, some people might ossify into rigid character patterns, and walk around telling themselves and the world that they are a 'meat and potatoes' kind of guy, and that they will never change. In my book that is just knowing the rigid identity that they have settled within.  
Who knows what may one day shake this certainty delusion.

Falling in love. A weird dream that unsettles their whole value system. A child dying or going missing. A psychotic episode or near death experience?

Who they thought they were was really a joke, and the further they dig for answers, the deeper and stranger everything becomes.

 

[MooNiNite]

Im more associating knowing who one is with a knowing, an experiential quality. Not so much an idea or label.

 

Not so many reach this level of awakening (enlightenment, embodiment), and it is kinda messed up in my opinion. 

[Marblehead]

Im more associating knowing who one is with a knowing, an experiential quality. Not so much an idea or label.

 

Not so many reach this level of awakening (enlightenment, embodiment), and it is kinda messed up in my opinion. 

But let's face it, we are constantly told by others who we are and how we are supposed to act and how we are supposed to feel about different things.  If we never question all these things we are told we will never truly know our self and I propmise, this will bring on many great anxieties throughout our life.

[MooNiNite]

A becoming oneself. Reawakening. And society is powerless.

 

‘The ultimate goal is to realize who you are, to become one with God, to become a god. This is what we call Theosis. We are gods,’ Daskalos said, ‘but we are not aware of it. We suffer from a self-inflicted amnesia. The aim,’ he reiterated many times, ‘is to reawaken that which we have always been and we shall always be.” 

[MooNiNite]

Its a shame that we have to reawaken. Or that such an awakening must be earned. Just to be who we are. 

[Marblehead]

A becoming oneself. Reawakening. And society is powerless.

 

‘The ultimate goal is to realize who you are, to become one with God, to become a god. This is what we call Theosis. We are gods,’ Daskalos said, ‘but we are not aware of it. We suffer from a self-inflicted amnesia. The aim,’ he reiterated many times, ‘is to reawaken that which we have always been and we shall always be.” 

Nice post even though I wish you could have expressed your thoughts (and his) in a more Atheistic manner.  Hehehe.

[MooNiNite]

Theosis, enlightenment, awakening, merging with god. all the same experience. all of religion was created from the same experience...and then usually misinterpreted or misunderstood....or utilized for one's benefit. 

[Marblehead]

Yes.  I am glad you have this understanding.  And that "same experience" was, IMO, not knowing.  So we created answers that sounded good at the time.  Didn't matter how valid they were - they were answers.

[Jetsun]

Nobody has to earn it, a mass murdering psychopath could wake up to their true nature and merge with god right now. You can wake up right now, all that is in the way is what you believe is in the way. 

 

The whole issue around having to earn things and deserve them are based on mind/man made concepts and socially conditioned beliefs

[MooNiNite]

Nobody has to earn it, a mass murdering psychopath could wake up to their true nature and merge with god right now. You can wake up right now, all that is in the way is what you believe is in the way. 

 

The whole issue around having to earn things and deserve them are based on mind/man made concepts and socially conditioned beliefs

 

See i view it more as developing concentration, or opening the sacred disks. Like refining.

 

Earning /Honing/Developing.

 

Instant activation and development does sound nice though 

[Jetsun]

See i view it more as developing concentration, or opening the sacred disks. Like refining.

 

Earning /Honing/Developing.

 

Instant activation and development does sound nice though 

 

Maybe the belief that you need to refine and improve yourself is exactly what is preventing you from recognising what you already are.

[3bob]

to be a child of Tao does not have to be earned - but to be a Sage and warrior of Tao (or whatever terms are preferred) has to be proven - being that the tested soul of a Sage and warrior is no longer only that of a child.  And there are also sayings like, "to whom much is given much is expected", and the lines from the T.T.C. that go something like, "only they who would sacrifice for the welfare of the beings of the world are be fit to be stewards for those beings and the world".

Edited May 3, 2015 by 3bob

[thelerner]

Imo,

good to give it some thought every now and then but bad to dwell on it.  I tend to believe we're not who we 'think' we are anyway, rather we're mostly what we do.

[MooNiNite]

Maybe the belief that you need to refine and improve yourself is exactly what is preventing you from recognising what you already are.

 

I mean it's possible, but i still believe in an awakening. An enlightenment where one become transcendent on an experiential level.