Doubt about numbed legs in meditation

[Dream]

Hi

 

I take qiqong lessons in the past, and i learned a few simple meditations. Currently im trying to learn from books because i didnt find a good teacher (but this is another story)

 

The thing is that when i practice for example, a simple exercise sitting on the floor for 25 minutes i start to feel the legs very numbed and i dont feel it anymore. i have to move them for 2 or 3 minutes and they are very cold.

 

I think this is because i have very bad circulation what i dont know what can i do.

 

Sory for my poor english,

 

Greetings

Edited May 1, 2015 by Dream

[soaring crane]

Stand up!

 

Your English is fine, don't worry about it :-)

[thelerner]

Simple sitting isn't so simple.  Lots of ways to sit.  When on the floor, most traditions have you on firm pillows (in zen - zafus) that life your butt a few inches off the floor.  Sitting a few inches (5 -7ish) higher alleviates some stress on the legs.   I usually sit in half lotus with one leg resting on the other.  When I'm feeling tight I'll loosen it up a bit, so neither leg is on the other, that can help.

 

After 15 years of meditation and sitting as still as possible, I took a seminar in Stillness-Movement gi gung where a small natural bob motion was acceptable while sitting.  That's helped me sit longer without discomfort. 

 

These days I'll usually sit with a blanket around me too.  When cold bundle up. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by thelerner

[gendao]

It may easily take years (like ~5+) of preparation to attain the babylike flexibility in your kua and spine necessary to sit in full-lotus properly.

So, if you think you can just start sitting like that off the bat, you are likely naively delusional.    Full-lotus meditation is a very advanced practice that can be easily underestimated by n00bs..

Edited May 1, 2015 by gendao

[Dream]

Hi thank you for your answers, im in a hurry now but i have a few things to say

 

1) I dont meditate in full lotus. I usually do half lotus

2) Im not used to meditate, but i have a lot of flexibility because i used to train a lot. But, again, im not trying to meditate in full lotus.

 

Greetings!

[Dream]

Stand up!

 

Your English is fine, don't worry about it :-)

 

Sory, but i didnt understand   What did you mean with that? To do Zhan zuang? 

[MooNiNite]

your circulation is fine. keep meditating

 

as your energy body becomes more activated your legs wont fall asleep. 

 

keep meditating

 

keep meditating

 

keep meditating

[gendao]

Hi thank you for your answers, im in a hurry now but i have a few things to say

 

1) I dont meditate in full lotus. I usually do half lotus

2) Im not used to meditate, but i have a lot of flexibility because i used to train a lot. But, again, im not trying to meditate in full lotus.

 

Greetings!

Half or full lotus...if your legs are getting numb, that probably means they are pressing against each other too hard...which most likely means you are not flexible enough and not really ready for it.

[Dream]

Ok then what position do you suggest ?

 

Thanks,

 

Greetings!

[soaring crane]

Sory, but i didnt understand   What did you mean with that? To do Zhan zuang? 

 

yes, that's what I meant. I wrote it because you described your practice as qigong.

[Bearded Dragon]

Just do whatever is comfortable.

 

By the way, flexible does not equal relaxed. Look at ballet dancers. They couldn't relax to save their lives.

[Taomeow]

Make sure your sitting posture, whatever it is, is physiologically sound.  There's many "check points" to go over -- if you don't know what they are, find out. 

When you are done sitting, straighten out your legs slowly and gradually, not abruptly.

Slap and rub them vigorously.  Rub the soles of your feet too, with pressure.

Pummel up and down the outside of your legs, ankle to hip and back, with pressure.

Make loose fists and massage your kidneys, in upward-spiraling motions.

If after this your numbness is gone and your feet get warm, don't worry about it, it's normal.  

If not, report back, we'll try to investigate.

Good luck!

Edited May 2, 2015 by Taomeow

[Rara]

Hi

 

I take qiqong lessons in the past, and i learned a few simple meditations. Currently im trying to learn from books because i didnt find a good teacher (but this is another story)

 

The thing is that when i practice for example, a simple exercise sitting on the floor for 25 minutes i start to feel the legs very numbed and i dont feel it anymore. i have to move them for 2 or 3 minutes and they are very cold.

 

I think this is because i have very bad circulation what i dont know what can i do.

 

Sory for my poor english,

 

Greetings

Is it just in your legs or are you doing full lotus?

 

Full lotus gives me bad numbness, and I don't do it any more. Cross legged, i can do 25-30 mins and only be slightly numb after. I think it will happen with most people sat with folded legs for a long time.

 

You can meditate on a chair with both feet on the floor. It won't change the experience much at all.

 

Edit: Ignore my first question, I just read the other replies. There is some good advice above

Edited May 2, 2015 by Rara

[Dream]

yes, that's what I meant. I wrote it because you described your practice as qigong.

 

Ok, thank you for your advice. I guess my exercises can be done in zhan zhuang ?

 

Make sure your sitting posture, whatever it is, is physiologically sound.  There's many "check points" to go over -- if you don't know what they are, find out. 

When you are done sitting, straighten out your legs slowly and gradually, not abruptly.

Slap and rub them vigorously.  Rub the soles of your feet too, with pressure.

Pummel up and down the outside of your legs, ankle to hip and back, with pressure.

Make loose fists and massage your kidneys, in upward-spiraling motions.

If after this your numbness is gone and your feet get warm, don't worry about it, it's normal.  

If not, report back, we'll try to investigate.

Good luck!

 

Today im trying this!

 

Thank you for the explanation!

 

You can meditate on a chair with both feet on the floor

 

Thank you for the advice, Indeed, i tried to meditate in a chair but its the same thing with my legs. 

 

Greetings!

Edited May 2, 2015 by Dream

[voidisyinyang]

I would say actually full lotus is better to fix numb legs - it is paradoxical - but with half lotus you are not opening up the channels as well. When the legs are numb that means your energy is gone to the upper body but it needs to then cycle back down to open up the leg channels. Full lotus opens up the lower back better and so the energy flows more easily.

 

Like if I sit Japanese style then when my legs are numb - it is difficult to stay in that position to wait for the legs to clear out.

 

But with full lotus - wait happens is that you have to focus your mind more as the energy is now in your upper body - and then you have an internal orgasm which is what then clears out the leg channels - it is your mind activating your vagus nerve to your reproductive organ and the bliss then floods through your legs.

 

So then you learn that actually numb legs are a good thing since it's a since that the bliss will be next when the legs clear out.

 

Now in half lotus you're not going to get that since you don't open up the lower back properly and so you don't get enough sublimation into the brain to really activate the vagus nerve connection to the lower body.

[soaring crane]

Make sure your sitting posture, whatever it is, is physiologically sound.  There's many "check points" to go over -- if you don't know what they are, find out. 

When you are done sitting, straighten out your legs slowly and gradually, not abruptly.

Slap and rub them vigorously.  Rub the soles of your feet too, with pressure.

Pummel up and down the outside of your legs, ankle to hip and back, with pressure.

Make loose fists and massage your kidneys, in upward-spiraling motions.

If after this your numbness is gone and your feet get warm, don't worry about it, it's normal.  

If not, report back, we'll try to investigate.

Good luck!

 

It's all really good stuff, but I'm going to suggest doing this before beginning the seated meditation (and afterwards, too). I'd add heel rotating (standing) and some yoga for the hips/pelvis/butt, all as preperation for the sitting session.

 

But if he wants to do qigong, there are better ways to sit than in staid stillness. Gentle rotation of the pelvic basin, combined with profound breath and yi guidance, for example. That's qigong, imo.

[soaring crane]

Ok, thank you for your advice. I guess my exercises can be done in zhan zhuang ?

 

Certainly! :-)

[Taomeow]

It's all really good stuff, but I'm going to suggest doing this before beginning the seated meditation (and afterwards, too). I'd add heel rotating (standing) and some yoga for the hips/pelvis/butt, all as preperation for the sitting session.

 

But if he wants to do qigong, there are better ways to sit than in staid stillness. Gentle rotation of the pelvic basin, combined with profound breath and yi guidance, for example. That's qigong, imo.

 

If time and patience are infinite, I prefer to do a stretching routine before and a massaging one after absolutely everything.   

There's no practice that does not benefit from this approach.

 

Sitting routines with movement allowed (or encouraged) are better suited for beginners indeed.  For seasoned practitioners, they are simply not challenging enough, and create a habit of "relaxation" but not "cultivation."  The latter must be difficult -- "where comfort ends, gong begins."

 

Of course making sure that pain, numbness, discomfort, etc. are in the gong territory rather than the fallout of erroneous body use, poor alignments, incorrect posture, etc., is of paramount importance.  This is not easy in its own right, because lots of folks who teach demonstrate (and transmit to their students) very poor habits and challenge the body entrusted them into attrition rather than cultivation.  To say nothing of the mind. 

[voidisyinyang]

I've been sitting in full lotus - not sure how long - my left foot is just coming out of numbness right now.

 

It's a kind of - well as the numbness in the foot disappears then the upper body energy also reaches its extreme - so it clears out the soar muscles in the shoulders, etc.

 

Yeah obviously it is tricky - as it your too stiff already then the posture won't be good enough to get enough pressure on the thighs to really sublimate the energy up the spine.

 

For example - I used to have carpal tunel - so bad I would wear braces to sleep. That was before qigong. So then I did qigong and I got another data entry job. I would do data entry all night in full lotus. haha.

 

So then I was at my parents and my dad was confused - how could I do a data entry job if I had carpal tunel?

 

Now remember that carpal tunel causes what? Numbness in the wrists and hands. It's terrible.

 

But I told my dad - sitting in full lotus heals the carpal tunel. He could not understand how that was possible.

 

haha. So it's the same way that numbness is also cleared out of the legs.

 

For the healing of the wrists - it's the lower body hormones being sublimated up into the brain which then creates more qi energy which then go out the arms into the hands.

 

For the lower body - that qi from the upper body will go down the front channel and clear out the legs.

 

It is a sympathetic and parasympathetic opposite extreme reaction.

 

So when you have numb legs that is the extreme of your sympathetic nervous  system but if you are practicing complementary opposite harmonics then it will rebound to the opposite parasympathetic extreme of bliss.

 

So whatever posture you are doing you just want to make sure to do the complementary opposite resonance.

 

So it could be - standing exercises and then go back to sitting, etc.

 

But you also want celibacy to build up the jing energy.

[voidisyinyang]

So my left foot went numb again and is now just clearing out.

 

I would say - for example doing standing exercise when the legs are vibrating and shaking - this is almost a type of numbness - since again it is the sympathetic nervous extreme.

 

so yeah then the jing energy cleared out the upper body more as the numbness in the foot hits the extreme.

 

If you focus on the small universe MCO channels - anal flex and tongue against roof of mouth - and the energy should cycle back into the legs.

[Gerard]

I think this is because i have very bad circulation what i dont know what can i do.

 

 

Easy, sit less and move more.

 

Sitting meditation is probably the single most overrated practice ever devised. It has its place in practice but moving is what really delivers the goods...and if you can/have access to learn circle walking the you will find 'the magic pill.'

 

Move like a

.

 

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

 

he just ate white hot coals.

 

holographic trance dance healing.

[Spotless]

If time and patience are infinite, I prefer to do a stretching routine before and a massaging one after absolutely everything.

There's no practice that does not benefit from this approach.

 

Sitting routines with movement allowed (or encouraged) are better suited for beginners indeed. For seasoned practitioners, they are simply not challenging enough, and create a habit of "relaxation" but not "cultivation." The latter must be difficult -- "where comfort ends, gong begins."

 

Of course making sure that pain, numbness, discomfort, etc. are in the gong territory rather than the fallout of erroneous body use, poor alignments, incorrect posture, etc., is of paramount importance. This is not easy in its own right, because lots of folks who teach demonstrate (and transmit to their students) very poor habits and challenge the body entrusted them into attrition rather than cultivation. To say nothing of the mind.

I disagree with this quote and approach:

 

"Sitting routines with movement allowed (or encouraged) are better suited for beginners indeed. [[[For seasoned practitioners, they are simply not challenging enough, and create a habit of "relaxation" but not "cultivation." The latter must be difficult -- "where comfort ends, gong begins.]]]"

 

Is this a Zen thing?

 

The pain thing was not in Raja yoga and sitting for 18 hours should not find one in pain or slumping. Usually after just an hour or so the pain and sleeping cold legs go away. They should never be left unattended to a level of blue and cold - just no need for a stroke.

 

Open your legs if needed - usually just one and let it get the circulation it needs then quietly put it back. Rubbing it if necessary.

Sitting on the edge of a chair is also excellent and offer some improvement over lotus for a number of energy levels.

Standing is a great way to go but for long sessions chair or floor. Simple cross leg, half lotus or full lotus - the main focus should be no distraction so pain is a zero gain and it should subside within an hour or two and be completely gone after that.

 

In the beginning stretching by putting the soles of your feet together and pulling them in as close to your crotch and then bouncing the knees to the floor gently is a great way to prepare for lotus eventually. Full lotus should not take all that long to attain if that is a big deal to you - it was for me in the beginning and so were head stands, but I do not see it as all that much better than all of the other positions at this point. I was able to do full lotus from the first day I did practice so perhaps I am not a good judge of how hard it is to attain from scratch.

 

But - this idea that pain is a good thing in meditation is myth in my well practiced opinion - dogma that has been handed down.

Lotus is very good, don't get me wrong in my ideas regarding it - but if you never do lotus you are not missing out on any big deal any more than if you never sit in a chair and meditate or do standing meditation.

 

Posture is very important, a well raised pad that you like is very helpful, a nice blanket and good nutrition a few hours prior and you are set to go for a day!

 

People way over engineer their practice and the "extraordinary" importance of pressure here or there, lotus, which mantra, crystal, floor mat and organic everything - just gotta have all this in place otherwise you cannot get the massive milestones - complete crock of excuses, dogma and nonsense.

Thelerner gave good advice - raising yourself up 5-7" on a cushion will really help blue legs stay pink and make slight shifts possible to keep the legs moving blood. Never anything wrong with shifting when needed unless you've got an audience and you feel the need to conform to the group. Strokes are a real life problem for a fair number of Yoga practitioners because of their practice - stoke victims in their 20s.

If your energy is really moving and you have a "serious" practice, then the whole leg issue and pain thing is gone within about 40 minutes to 1.5 hours. Actually the pain issue never needs to be an issue, but certainly as the energy gets going the pain at least for me ceased to exist outside of the occasional cramp - i was more tortured by an over heated room in a group.

 

In a long meditation for 10-18 hours I will eat breakfast, move about, shower up and start around 10am, at 4 I might open a window a crack and sit back down, at 9 pm or so I might close the window, at 1 or 2 I might want the blanket beside me. On the rare occasion that I needed to pee or poop I would miraculously get up and pee or poop - and in all of this I do not lose a beat.

 

If you've got a good practice with a whole lot of dogma then take the dogma with a grain of salt - you will find the teacher, if he is a good one, could actually care less about the dogma - he/she will be far more concerned about the results of your practice.

 

With regard to this topic, posture - spine - breath is the important package.

 

If you meditate IN your body and you have progressed well your posture should get better and better during your sitting, you should have zero pain and constantly be more and more awake and aware - though this will certainly vary from time to time as you hit energy and push through it - but this will subside as well and become infrequent to no-existent. You will become lighter, more resilient to heat and cold, noise and distraction will be nothing and getting up to do some slight task will be no bother or interruption any more than the need to pass gas and the short discomfort that might give you - all taken in stride without dogma and bother haunting you for no reason what so ever.

 

Taomeow's suggestion for pre and post meditation work is excellent - this will have a dramatic effect on the speed with which you settle in and the overall response your body/being relationship has when finishing up meditation.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Spotless

[Taomeow]

Spotless,

 

not a "zen thing" and not yoga -- taoist cultivation, gongfu, which can be translated as "achievement through great effort."  Taoist cultivation is not only dissimilar but in many cases opposite in its goals and techniques to both.

 

The OP mentioned qigong, which led me to believe that he seeks to explore taoist practices.  Qigong is a beginner practice.  Neigong and neidan follow.  I was talking about that. 

Edited May 3, 2015 by Taomeow

[Dream]

Hi, Thank you all!

 

first a few things:

I dont have a good english, sory for that. The second, like i said, i'm a begginner. I didn't find a good teacher here in Argentina.

I've learn a few things with a wushu teacher, and another reading books for example from Jwing Ming. Another thing to said is that because of this  i really don't feel the Qi, i use the yi/mind to concentrate on the points for example the tantien.

 

 

Make sure your sitting posture, whatever it is, is physiologically sound.  There's many "check points" to go over -- if you don't know what they are, find out. 

When you are done sitting, straighten out your legs slowly and gradually, not abruptly.

Slap and rub them vigorously.  Rub the soles of your feet too, with pressure.

Pummel up and down the outside of your legs, ankle to hip and back, with pressure.

Make loose fists and massage your kidneys, in upward-spiraling motions.

If after this your numbness is gone and your feet get warm, don't worry about it, it's normal.  

If not, report back, we'll try to investigate.

Good luck!

 

Today i meditated 30 minutes on a chair. Simple exercise. Abdominal breathing focusing on the dantien.

My legs were cold and very numbed but after 1 minute of massage they were fine. After i meditated 30 minutes more and i did the same.

 

General ideas are

 

Do the "slap routine" before/after meditation

Meditate on a chair or  few inches higher on the floor.

No problem in shifting a bit

 

Greetings