What enlightenment really is?

[Kubba]

When listening to different teachers that proclaim to be self realised seems to be clear that they talk about 2 or 3 different things/ states. All of them say offcourse that this is the final enlightenment.

So what is the truth? I don't know.

What I see, there are people that saw the nature of emptiness and then forget it and people who saw and could not forget. Both call it ultimate self realisation but one of them will be reborn and the others not.

Am I right? Where the truth lies in simple explanation?

Edited May 2, 2015 by Kubba

[ThisLife]

You've raised a very interesting point that to me, kind of seems like a recognition that one usually comes to after the experience of discovering that a path we truly had faith in, simply turns out to be as flawed as any other human mind-created theory and practice. If we don't dig ourselves out of our disillusionment by merely rebounding straight away into a different path, or following a different guru, ... then the question you have asked often arises.

 

The most personally satisfying reply to it that I've ever come across was given by a Non-Duality teacher I came across, called Wayne Liquorman. If you have the patience to read through, I'll share it with you below for whatever value you may find in it :

 

*

 

 

For those of you who are hearing me for the first time I want to emphasize that nothing I say is the Truth. I make no claims whatsoever that one word comings out of my mouth is the Truth.

 

Now I am not unique in this. None of the teachers that you've either read or heard are speaking the Truth. Truth can't be spoken. All of these concepts are simply pointers, indicators of a Truth that is right here - that is ever-present - as clear, and as unmasked as it could possibly be.

 

So, I personally have no trouble with anybody else’s teachings. If one teacher says you exist and another one says you don’t exist, and this one says that you’re God incarnate and this other one says that you’re nothing, I don’t care. They are all understood to be relative teaching tools. There is never a question of the hammer being Truer than the screwdriver. What I find objectionable (in an aesthetic sense) is when someone says, “What I am saying is the Truth and what the other teaching is saying is bullshit.” Such an assertion lacks the essential clarity of understanding that it’s all bullshit, and that a given teacher’s teaching is a matter of enculturation and personal programming that determine how their teaching is expressed.

 

Ramana Maharishi used the image of a concept, (or religion, or philosophy), as being like a thorn that is used to remove some other thorn that is, let's say, embedded in your foot. So you have a thorn (which is some concept about how things are) and it's embedded in you. The sage comes and uses another concept in the hopes of removing that embedded concept with this second concept. If the embedded concept is removed both concepts become superfluous - they get discarded. The thorn that's being utilised to remove the other thorn has no intrinsic value. After it has done its job you don't wax rhapsodic over what a great thorn it was. Its value was only as a tool. The purpose of all religions and philosophies is exactly the same.

 

Generally, by the time you've gotten here you've read a lot, you've been to a lot of teachers, you have absorbed a vast number of concepts, and many of them are contradictory. How do you reconcile what this teacher said with what that teacher said ? I mean, you've sat with this teacher; you know that this person is a genuine teacher. There's no question of him scamming you. And yet he's saying something that is utterly and completely different from what this one over here is saying. How do you reconcile these conflicting explanations ?

 

The way you reconcile them is to understand that none of these teachers' concepts are true. All concepts, religions, and philosophies are simply tools, and their applicability is only in the moment.

 

*

[Kubba]

Yes, but I don't talk about it.

 

1) They say that the ultimate human nature is an empty mind and living in now withouth believe in self.

2) But then there is sth more to realise after achieving it.

What I say is that one teachers say that 1) is true and others say 2) is.

[ThisLife]

I think you may have missed the point of what Mr Liquorman was saying. Perhaps if you tried reading it again. He is PRECISELY addressing your question, (which you have simply re-phrased a second time above.)

[amoyaan]

If you a group of 'spiritual types' in a room talking about enlightenment, confusion is bound to ensue sooner or later. You can guarantee that each of them has a slightly (or majorly!) different take on what they think enlightenment is. Like the word 'God', the term 'enlightenment' has become a problem because with so many differing ideas out there, it can basically mean anything you want it to mean. This can make any discussion problematic and frustrating! 

 

For that reason I rarely use the word 'enlightenment'. It has too much baggage.

 

When it came to understanding what enlightenment is I've yet to find a tradition that speaks with greater clarity than Vedanta. Assuming you find a decent teacher, it all makes so much sense. It's a highly logical take on the whole enlightenment shebang. The gist of what I learned is that a better word for enlightenment is 'moksha', which means 'liberation'.

 

Liberation isn't about chasing after cosmic orgasms or transcendent experiences (cos nothing in phenomenal existence lasts indefinitely - including, sadly, orgasms and transcendent experiences). 

 

Enlightenment is simply firm Self Knowledge: knowing that we are already whole and complete; that this person/ego-entity that we appear to be is awareness/consciousness assuming a certain form for a finite time - like a wave upon the ocean. The wave appears to have an independent existence of its own, but it's actually just a name and form -- it is H20 through and through.

 

Our problem is really ignorance of our own nature, and the only antidote to ignorance is knowledge. Self knowledge eats away at our sense of limitation like an acid corroding metal. It doesn't happen all at once. It can, but I don't think that's very common. Self knowledge leads to liberation ('enlightenment') by making us realise, fully and with the entirety of our being that....we are ok. On the level of the individual we will always be limited and lacking in some way, but as awareness, we are whole, complete and nothing is lacking. This erodes the compulsion to continually chase after things in the world to try and satisfy our sense of incompleteness and inadequacy (the whole samsara show). 

[ThisLife]

(1) Our problem is really ignorance of our own nature, and the only antidote to ignorance is knowledge. Self knowledge eats away at our sense of limitation like an acid corroding metal.

 

(2) It doesn't happen all at once. It can, but I don't think that's very common.

 

(3) Self knowledge leads to liberation ('enlightenment')

 

(4) This erodes the compulsion to continually chase after things in the world to try and satisfy our sense of incompleteness and inadequacy .

 

 

You have beautifully expressed a very interesting, (and clearly heart-felt) point of view. After reading through it, for me there are four main areas where I find my collection of 'satisfying answers' different from your own. I've tinkered with what you wrote purely to highlight those four areas and below I've tried to throw in some hopefully thought-provoking quotes to counterbalance each.

 

For me, I think that unless we're periodically stimulated to consider different thought patterns, my feeling is that whatever 'satisfying answers' we may come up with along our individual spiritual paths - can end up becoming just soothing mantras to keep us comfortably asleep in our dream of spiritual questing.

 

But maybe that's just me.

 

*

 

(1) a quote by Andre Gide :

 

"Know thyself" - a maxim as pernicious as it is odious.

 

Any caterpillar who tried to "know himself" would never become a butterfly.

 

*

 

(2) an extract from a talk by Wayne Liquorman

 

 

{Q} :  Is the awakening gradual or is it sudden, spontaneous, and permanent ?

 

{Wayne} :  It is gradual in the sense that your progress to the edge of the cliff is gradual. There may be five steps or five thousand steps taken before you reach the edge, but the last step is always sudden and irrevocable.

 

{Q} :  How do you take it ?

 

{Wayne} :  “You” don’t. “You” never take the step. It takes you. The ego will not willingly go over, even though it says, “I want to be free from the burden of myself.” It doesn’t really want to be free from the burden of itself, it simply wants to be free of its limitations and those aspects of itself it doesn’t like.

 

*

 

(3) another extract from a talk by W.L.

 

 "The event of Awakening is an impersonal event. It happens through a body-mind mechanism, and it can happen in all kinds of ways, and there are probably as many stories as there are body-mind mechanisms through which it has happened. But the impulse is always to focus on the experience, in the secret hope that, “Okay, if we can identify what it was that caused the Awakening, then by diligently applying ourselves to duplicating this feat, we can get what we want !”

 

{Q} : It’s not that,…

 

{Wayne} : It is that, precisely !

 

{Q} : I was just wondering if your experiencing that emotional turmoil could have been a precursor…

 

{Wayne} : And what I am telling you is that whatever comes before,… it is NOT causative.

 

{Q} : It’s not ? It’s different in each case ?

 

{Wayne} : Yes

 

{Q} : Okay,……So if this Enlightenment is purely a matter of Grace, then why should we seek ? Why should we not just give up ?

 

{Wayne} :  Try giving up ! (laughter) You didn’t ask to become a seeker. The seeking started. So you can’t give it up ! It’s the same as having sex with a six hundred pound gorilla,… you’re not done until the gorilla is done.

 

*

 

(4) an extract from a talk by Richard Sylvester

 

 

One of the problems which arises from our tendency to personalise our fantasy of liberation, is that we can create an idealised image of the guru or teacher.

 

One of the ways in which we keep ourselves seeking is to project onto a teacher an ideal of an ‘enlightened’ person who is so far above us that we can feel we could not reach their state in fewer than twenty lifetimes. We may create an idealised enlightened figure that is above any thought of pain and any possibility of suffering, who lives in utter bliss, who can perform wonderful siddhis and who can release us from our karma if we only show him enough devotion. There can be a powerful tendency to project this idealised figure out there. The more idealised this teacher is, the more our search can be kept going.

 

The search, particularly if it’s for spiritual enlightenment, is sustained by our sense of personal inadequacy. Most spiritual paths are sustained by this thought : “I am not yet good enough but if I follow the guru, repeat the mantra, do enough chanting, clear my chakras and receive darshan enough times, then I will become good enough and one day I will be utterly purified.”

 

All spiritual seeking stems from this core sense that “I am not yet adequate.” Imagining that there is an idealised teacher out there who is 'totally adequate' maintains our sense of inadequacy in comparison.

 

*

Edited May 2, 2015 by ThisLife

[amoyaan]

 

You have beautifully expressed a very interesting, (and clearly heart-felt) point of view. After reading through it, for me there are four main areas where I find my collection of 'satisfying answers' different from your own. I've tinkered with what you wrote purely to highlight those four areas and below I've tried to throw in some hopefully thought-provoking quotes to counterbalance each.

 

Thank you I will try to clarify what i wrote, it can be fun trying to express this stuff.

 

For me, unless we're stimulated to consider different patterns, my feeling is that whatever 'satisfying answers' we may come up with along our individual spiritual paths - end up becoming just soothing mantras to keep us comfortably asleep in our dream of spiritual questing.

 

But maybe that's just me.

 

There is this danger, yes. Spiritual bypassing maybe? I fell into that trap I think for a number of years. I think the key for me has been the ability to be very honest with myself, and ask 'am I still suffering? Am I still chasing after shit (or avoiding it) in the hope it will make me happy?' (which includes chasing after spiritual shit haha).

 

 

*

 

(1) a quote by Andre Gide :

 

"Know thyself" - a maxim as pernicious as it is odious.

 

Any caterpillar who tried to "know himself" would never become a butterfly.

 

*

 

It depends which 'self' this is in reference to. Is it the ever-changing ego self, or is it the changeless witness of the ever-changing ego self? In the example there is the caterpillarness and butterflyness...but there must have been a part of the caterpillar/butterfly that was aware of and transcended both states, otherwise it wouldn't be the same entity. 

 

(2) an extract from a talk by Wayne Liquorman

 

 

{Q} :  Is the awakening gradual or is it sudden, spontaneous, and permanent ?

 

{Wayne} :  It is gradual in the sense that your progress to the edge of the cliff is gradual. There may be five steps or five thousand steps taken before you reach the edge, but the last step is always sudden and irrevocable.

 

{Q} :  How do you take it ?

 

{Wayne} :  “You” don’t. “You” never take the step. It takes you. The ego will not willingly go over, even though it says, “I want to be free from the burden of myself.” It doesn’t really want to be free from the burden of itself, it simply wants to be free of its limitations and those aspects of itself it doesn’t like.

 

I don't know this guy or his teaching, but I understand what he's saying. I find it quite helpful the way my teacher differentiates between self realisation and self actualisation. Self realisation is what people generally mean by 'awakening'...the realisation that I am not this ego/body/mind/whatever. This isn't under the control of the mind/ego: you can read or hear the truth a thousand times, but if the mind isn't ready to process or 'get it', if the ground isn't fertile, it simply won't take root. Self realisation or awakening isn't the same as enlightenment/liberation. It's the all-important first step but the realisation can come and go.

 

Self actualisation is the process by which this knowledge is gradually assimilated...whereby it finally sticks! We can have a great many incredible mind-blowing epiphanies, but as soon as we get back to our regular life they tend to go out the window. Self actualisation is making the knowledge stick...ensuring that our thoughts, beliefs, conditioning etc are measured up against this realisation. It's about clearing out the psychological level, bringing our mind and whatever garbage the unconscious is spewing up in line with the truth. This does take time and effort. In vedanta it's called 'nididhyasana', the final stage of realisation. It's about dealing with our residual ignorance, and we all have lifetimes of it. Hardly any teachers out there emphasise or even mention this part of the process, because it would probably put people off. We think it should be effortless, because a lot of us spiritual types can be kinda lazy to be honest, or maybe it's just our instant gratification culture...but it does take some hard graft. It's very rare for lifetimes of ignorance to burn up on the spot (although it can happen if one's mind is suitably prepared and adept at yoga and achieving samadhi, etc). 

 

 

*

 

(3) another extract from a talk by W.L.

 

 "The event of Awakening is an impersonal event. It happens through a body-mind mechanism, and it can happen in all kinds of ways, and there are probably as many stories as there are body-mind mechanisms through which it has happened. But the impulse is always to focus on the experience, in the secret hope that, “Okay, if we can identify what it was that caused the Awakening, then by diligently applying ourselves to duplicating this feat, we can get what we want !”

 

This is very true

 

{Q} : It’s not that,…

 

{Wayne} : It is that, precisely !

 

{Q} : I was just wondering if your experiencing that emotional turmoil could have been a precursor…

 

{Wayne} : And what I am telling you is that whatever comes before,… it is NOT causative.

 

{Q} : It’s not ? It’s different in each case ?

 

{Wayne} : Yes

 

{Q} : Okay,……So if this Enlightenment is purely a matter of Grace, then why should we seek ? Why should we not just give up ?

 

{Wayne} :  Try giving up ! (laughter) You didn’t ask to become a seeker. The seeking started. So you can’t give it up ! It’s the same as having sex with a six hundred pound gorilla,… you’re not done until the gorilla is done.

 

He doesn't explain what he means by enlightenment here but I agree with the general gist.

 

*

 

(4) an extract from a talk by Richard Sylvester

 

 

One of the problems which arises from our tendency to personalise our fantasy of liberation, is that we can create an idealised image of the guru or teacher.

 

One of the ways in which we keep ourselves seeking is to project onto a teacher an ideal of an ‘enlightened’ person who is so far above us that we can feel we could not reach their state in fewer than twenty lifetimes. We may create an idealised enlightened figure that is above any thought of pain and any possibility of suffering, who lives in utter bliss, who can perform wonderful siddhis and who can release us from our karma if we only show him enough devotion. There can be a powerful tendency to project this idealised figure out there. The more idealised this teacher is, the more our search can be kept going.

 

The search, particularly if it’s for spiritual enlightenment, is sustained by our sense of personal inadequacy. Most spiritual paths are sustained by this thought : “I am not yet good enough but if I follow the guru, repeat the mantra, do enough chanting, clear my chakras and receive darshan enough, then I will become good enough and one day I will be utterly purified.”

 

All spiritual seeking stems from this core sense that “I am not yet adequate.” Imagining that there is an idealised teacher out there who is 'totally adequate' maintains our sense of inadequacy in comparison.

 

*

 

I agree with this, and that the core reason behind our seeking being a sense of inadequacy. Worldly people look to worldly things to cover up this sense of inadequacy, whereas spiritual people loo for spiritual things to fill that void. This is a step in the right direction but can be a big trap, because we are still looking outside of ourself essentially. 

 

As for the teacher, on the level of the person there are no 'perfect people'. It's a terrible mistake to get hung up on a teacher. Nothing is perfect in this level. But to encounter a genuinely liberated being is pretty astounding. On the level of the person they still have their issues like everyone else, they might have health or financial concerns etc, but because they know who they are, nothing knocks them. It's like a rock-solid confidence. It's like they're living in this world, engaging with it, dealing with its inevitable ups and downs, but they don't get hung up on things any more than they would get hung up on the content of a dream at night. It's just a show to them and they genuinely don't get too bothered by it. They don't have any need to chase after anything, because they know that at the ultimate level they are everything. It's amazing to see. And I guess pretty rare.

Edited May 2, 2015 by amoyaan

[voidisyinyang]

Taoism is based on jing, qi and shen.

 

You build up the jing energy as your foundation for enlightenment.

 

A qigong master can stick their finger to your head and blast your brain with laser qi bliss light.

 

But unless you have a strong lower tan tien foundation your mind will not be able to handle that shen-qi energy aka "shakti" in India.

 

So for example Poonaji did that shakti finger treatment to a young white dude and that guy ran around for a few days screaming he was Jesus. ahah. So Poonjaji realized he had used too much energy.

 

On the contrary the emptiness has to create a mutual resonance between the student and the teacher. So It is the Emptiness (formless awareness) that sends the energy.

 

For example I had a qigong master make the middle of my brain on fire - long distance - from miles away. The brain fire bliss was so strong I had to stop meditating - and I didn't even know what had caused it. It wasn't until when I returned to class the next week - the qigong master asked me in the hallway. "Did you feel anything?" haha. I had asked him the previous week if we could meditate together and he said, "Maybe later." But I didn't realize what he had meant!

 

So then when we talked about that experience later he laughed and said - that blissful heat that I could not handle in the middle of my brain - that was my own Self coming through - it was not anything external, nor internal.

 

But actually to use Ramana Maharshi as a teacher - he calls it Mouna Samadhi or silence samadhi as the highest liberation.

 

It is an eternal process of energy creation and energy harmonization.

 

So yes - final liberation is never ending and never beginning - it's based on logical inference, the source of the I-thought, but in fact it is an eternal listening.

 

Taoism teaches that this listening is a process of complementary opposites and so the harmonization of jing, qi and shen also harmonizes the brain, body and spirit.

 

So for the Brahmin mind yoga tradition - Jhana yoga of Ramana Maharshi - he had to be in solitude for 9 years before finally there was this shot of energy across his heart - after he physically died for over 5 minutes - and when he came out of that then he had achieved his final liberation, sahaja samadhi, so that with each breath his mind emptied out beyond his physical body.

 

But as Mahayana Buddhism teaches - Ramana Maharshi didn't keep emptying out his body and so his body got sick and it required a group of volunteers or servant/students to take care of him, etc. And so the mind yoga tradition in India relies on the caste system so that the Brahmins have solitude from females - even eye contact with a female requires 3 days of purification - and also a warrior caste to physically protect them, etc.

 

So there's different types of enlightenment - but there has to be a harmonization of the jing, qi and shen energy. So for example it's like pumping a tire - the more energy you put into the tire (your body) - with a hand pump - then the more difficult it is to pump up the tire.

 

So it's actually easier to have energy to go out of a energy master's body into other people - because the other people have a lower frequency energy and so the higher frequency just flows like gravity. It flows via the eyes as qi-shen energy via the pineal gland. So it can also flow omnidirectional and long distance, etc. Whereas for the energy master to heal themselves is like pumping into a tire where more pressure to fully inflate it is harder to do. So for that the energy master wants solitude - but if an energy master is fully liberated and does practice full body harmonization - like full lotus meditation and Tai Chi - then the energy master can easily recharge their energy.

 

So for Ramana Maharshi it is said he was taking in the bad karma of other people and so that's why he got sick. Indeed - but if he had been harmonizing into the Emptiness that would have cleared out the bad karma he had taken in. For example I had a qigong master clear out bad karma I had taken in from when I did psychic tantra over the years. He could see "all the women" as he said - but I actually felt "lighter" after he healed me and the healing felt like this high frequency electrical sensation deep in my nether region. haha.

 

So we are constantly taking in and storing holographic information into our bodies and also the Emptiness enables visions of the future, and so the formless awareness as the Emptiness can be understood as an infinite space-time formless vortex that we are a part of - and it listens to us.

 

As we listen to it consciously then we resonate with it so that the future based on our deep subconscious desires being fulfilled - is revealed. So an image of the future is actually more vivid than being "awake" in normal reality.  So enlightenment means to be able to see light externally - all the time - with the pineal gland constantly and permanently transformed - and so then information is picked up by the pineal gland and transduced into what your mind can read as visions or various perceptions. But all mental perceptions arise from electromagnetic information which arises from the spacetime vortex itself. A truly enlightened master can see inside their own body and inside the body of others also - so that indeed the energy is not just interacting with our spirit bodies but the energy master also creates a new spirit body - called "yin shen" - to heal our own spirit body. From that higher frequency holographic healing then the physical body is also healed.

 

Modern science is now founded on quantum physics and so this energy vortex is called "time-frequency uncertainty" - but that is what Ramana Maharshi referred to when he called it "Mouna Samadhi" - he said formless awareness can not be seen - it is not light - but it creates light and all the other types of energy.

[wilfred]

my understanding of it was that the person becomes karmically inoperative, ie they have destroyed the subconscious mind and removed all grounds for negative reactions, no rebirth. they may seem normal at surface level but beneath that all everything flows freely through them without any attachment or aversion. this is the culmination of seeing through things to the extent that the mind recognizes there is no grounds for any type of clinging. from what i can gather, direct perception of impermanence is a big one for relinquishing the last parts of our stuff and seeing into past lives doesn't hurt either. whatever it is it seems to require a great deal of concentration in order to be able to see clearly enough. seeing right through to the basic ground/clear light and cessation of all formations. i was told the awakened experience is like in the clear light dream, which is my only direct point of reference. light is coming out of everything and it seems like the mind is everywhere at once. it probably isn't quite that overwhelming if you're used to it though 

 

in terms of teaching, of which i have limited experience, some things seem to ring true at a deeper level. especially as far as transmission goes, with reactions occurring out of nowhere. recognition at a much deeper than intellectual level. these are the kind of things i take away as truths, experiences beyond my understanding, or understanding at all.

 

and then the superpowers. being aware of this type of stuff going on was probably as big a factor as the teaching itself for getting me on the path. not that it means anything by itself, but it certainly demonstrates that enlightenment or attainments/realization are a thing if those kind of things are possible. eg taking other people's minds as objects and being able to place energy there.

[voidisyinyang]

If you study the book "Taoist YOga: Alchemy and IMmortality" it gives you the science of training for enlightenment.

 

So there is the "relative" void which means seeing light just inside your head. That is from the yin qi energy increasing the level of yin shen energy. It's a good sign but just a start.

 

So only after the lower tan tien behind the belly fills with yin qi does the yang qi of the heart kick in. That's when the third eye really opens up.

 

In the mean time there is deep jing transformation (yang jing or yin qi) - so first the kidneys get hot, then the thymus and finally the middle of the brain gets real hot.

 

So once the yang qi kicks in - then you see light externally outside of the body - see auras around people and you can even see ghosts - if you really open up the third eye.

 

the problem at this stage is if your yin shen - your spirit - leaves your body without enough yang qi surrounding it - this causes a dizziness of your mind - a spacetime vortex around you.

 

So the solution to this is to store the yin shen in the lower tan tien and to surround it with more yang qi energy.

 

It is the qi energy that is the force of the mind - the force of intention - that guides the shen energy - otherwise your mind will be confused.

 

so that is where there first has to be a strong foundation of qi energy to guide the light energy.

 

Ramana Maharshi called this a "three in one unity" but his model was just the kundalini rising up the spine from the stomach area and then going down the front to the heart - but he didn't have it returning back to the lower tan tien.

 

The lower tan tien remains the stove for the body - the foundation to safely store the energy.

 

So the Taoist masters keep the light strong in the lower tan tien and surround the light with qi and then they first think with their lower tan tien actually - kind of like gut reactions - but much stronger.

 

But yeah after an enlightenment experience there should be a permanent transformation of the brain - so the qigong master for me stuck his finger to the center of my forehead and sent in the qi-shen energy so the middle of my brain filled with the qi-bliss laser love light. After that I had permanent magnetic bliss in the brain.

 

I got stupid because I actually stopped training for a couple months to see if the magnetic bliss in the center of my brain would go away. I wanted to see if it was just some superifical phenomenon. Nope - permanent.

 

So then now I gotta purify and build up my energy again.

 

But actually if the third eye is fully open then you don't feel the magnetic force in the brain - rather it is mainly light and the whole body fills with qi energy - you store the energy in the lower tan tien and then bring it out when it's needed.

 

 

[Aetherous]

I like the teaching that you attain real enlightenment when you are completely free from 1) negative emotions, and 2) concepts, such as the idea of oneself.

[voidisyinyang]

the pineal gland immediately processes lower emotions through taking in the energy around us - as lower frequency energy - and then registering holographically in our own bodies.

 

So then instead of blaming the source of the lower emotional blockage - we recognize it is an impersonal energy dynamic since reality is really holographic and nondual.

 

So then we just need to exorcise the lower emotional blockage.

 

For most people - that would otherwise be a totally subconscious experience.

 

Like a person can pretend to say one thing but their electromagnetic intention is actually based on lower emotions.

 

there is no point in trying to change a person's subconscious lower emotional electromagnetic blockage based on words - as words are just a superficial left-brain cover-up so to speak.

 

So instead you could send energy into the person to heal their blockage - via the pineal gland - or just exorcise the blockage that has already been taken in - either way it is sending that blockage back to the nondual Empty source that harmonizes all the energy.

 

So the exorcism of lower emotional blockages then go out of the pineal gland - through the heart transforming the lower emotional energy.

[Aaron]

Funny. I honestly believe I saw the nature of emptiness and forgot. I don't know if it's mean for everyone to retain this kind of knowledge. Some of us will attain it but not be ready for it. For those people I think we just muddle through as best we can trying do as little harm as possible.

[amoyaan]

So for Ramana Maharshi it is said he was taking in the bad karma of other people and so that's why he got sick. Indeed - but if he had been harmonizing into the Emptiness that would have cleared out the bad karma he had taken in. For example I had a qigong master clear out bad karma I had taken in from when I did psychic tantra over the years. He could see "all the women" as he said - but I actually felt "lighter" after he healed me and the healing felt like this high frequency electrical sensation deep in my nether region. haha.

 

This was a very interesting post Innersoundqigong. Although I highlighted this bit. I don't know who said Ramana was taking on other people's karma but I'm pretty certain Ramana never said that. He got sick and died because it's the nature of the body to get sick and die. From what I have learned, a jnani, someone who is enlightened, doesn't give all that much thought to the body. It's often just referred to as 'the five elements'.

 

When Ramana was dying and his devotees were extremely upset and trying to get him all kinds of cures and treatments, one ayurvedic doctor was applying some kind of clay compress to him and Ramana simply dismissed it by saying "mud on mud". His view of the body was that it was pretty inconsequential...just mud. Nisargadatta was exactly the same. It was just an object, by itself inert, appearing in their awareness. Neither had any great attachment to it.

Edited May 3, 2015 by amoyaan

[voidisyinyang]

I don't think Nisargadatta was real since as Poonjaji said Nisargadatta never showed any powers.

 

If a person has enlightenment they are going to show powers but only if the third eye is fully open.

 

There are lower levels of enlightenment - for example in Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality it's explained that after the lower tan tien is filled with yin qi energy then the Cavity of Original Spirit opens up as the enlightenment experience - this is just the Yuan Shen opening up as the moon energy from the yin qi energy. The third eye opens up because the yin qi, having filled the lower tan tien, begins to make "yang qi" and so there is just a "taste of Emptiness" as the book Foundations of Internal Alchemy calls it. This is called "Laying the foundation of immortality" - it is just a beginning stage of enlightenment.

 

Poonjaji said the same about Krishnamurti also - he understands the philosophy but he doesn't have any shakti. To have shakti you gotta have the third eye fully open for the yang qi and yuan qi to flow naturally through the body from the Emptiness.

 

The problem with the Brahmin Vedanta philosophy is that they don't need to have any "proof" of their enlightenment - instead the system of training is based entirely on the caste system.

 

So then you can get a lot of fakes. Sure people meditate but if they really opened up their third eye fully they're gonna demonstrate shakti energy.

 

For example the most famous guru of India is not only a total fake but also a thug child molester protected by the authorities - Sai Baba.

 

Then you got the fake "hugging saint" - who has set up an abusive cult.

 

India's spirituality is based on the Brahmin symmetric logic with a materialist contained infinity from the axiom, "I Am that I AM" and it really is the foundation of Western spirituality - for example God is from the Indo-European word GOTT which means Bull just as Brahman also means Bull.

 

You can read the "History of God" by Karen Armstrong and she never even gives the etymology of the word God. Hilarious!!

 

I know that Ramana Maharshi would say that people were not healed because they had bad karma and so God would not heal them.

 

The thing about the Emptiness is that it is actually female - in Taoism called the Mysterious Valley as female - or Wu Chi - and so it is the source of the heart soul energy. So the Yuan Shen as the ego consciousness - the light from the heart is then "turned back around" to the Yuan Qi which emanates out of the pineal gland - you connect the two to make access to the Emptiness because originally - prenatal Emptiness is from the Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi being unified through the heart. The originate from each side of the heart while the baby is in the womb.

 

Jhana Yoga relies on left brain logical inference and the left side vagus nerve connects to the right side of the heart - and so you get increased parasympathetic nervous energy to the heart.

 

In Western science this increased vagus nerve energy to the heart is known to be able to kill a person but if you do it consciously through meditation then Ramana Maharshi called it the "direct path" and it enables you to surpass death consciously. The left side vagus nerve to the heart is the "reptilian" vagus nerve - it controls the fear reaction where an animal freezes in fear to pretend to be dead - hence the motionless state of samadhi. For mammals this reaction is dangerous and so the yogi needs to be protected.

 

But as a philosophy practice  by using this "direct path" of left brain logical inference of the source of the I-thought (a direct path of the left side vagus nerve to the right side of the heart) it ignores the complementary opposite harmonics of the whole body's energy.

 

In reality the power of the mind to empty itself out first arises from the right side vagus nerve sublimating up the lower body energy - Ramana Maharshi acknowledged that as the path of Kundalini - but with the practice as the "goal" of enlightenment then the left brain logical inference does not connect the front and back channels of the body through the small universe meditation.

 

 

DIAPER GURU AT IT AGAIN

Ramana Maharshi is up to his usual tricks. It is a sad commentary on the state of spiritual seeking that people actually follow this fraud and his teachings.

1. As India struggles to get out from under the yoke of the caste system, Ramana continues to run a completely segregated dining hall, with the food for the ashram prepared only by Brahmin cooks so as not to offend high-level Indian Nazis. Of course, this goes along with the typical Indian ashram ban on any female devotee who is having her period.

2. Ramana makes his will out to leave his ashram to his family, a typical pack of Brahmins, thus ensuring that prejudices will be enshrined forever in his self-enquiry enclave.

3. Paul Brunton banned from ashram! Yes, the man who made the diaper Guru famous in the West (and thus ensured a steady flow of cash for the supposed renunciate and his family clan) has been permanently banned from Ramanashram. Why? Because he did not give a percentage of the profits from A SEARCH IN SECRET INDIA to the ashram treasury! Ramana personally okayed the decision to ban Brunton.

4. Dope smoking rampant amongst followers! Some of Ramana’s intimate crew regularly go to a nearby temple every night and get loaded out of their heads. Ramana apparently does not disapprove of this behavior. He even comments on the positive effects of powerful hallucinogenic drugs, but says they shouldn’t be used because they will give the ashram a bad name.

5. Ramana chases man out of the satsang hall, beating him with a stick.

6. Ramana again reduces his mother to tears and then tells her to keep on crying as it will do her good. This goes along with his tyrannical behavior towards his brother who runs the ashram, and who is apparently so terrified of Ramana that he avoids his presence like the plague. This terror has its roots in an incident where Ramana beat his brother so severely he broke a stick over his head. Hey, the family that self enquires together stays together.

 

http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/2010/08/whacking-work.html#c3675307485504236575

 

So yeah Ramana didn't care about his body and that is precisely the point - everything in the Universe has "three in one unity" as Ramana said - and that includes the body.

 

So the Taoists and Ch'an Mayahana monks lived in the mountains and forests and were self-sufficient in many ways - farming and training in self defense - they didn't rely on a whole caste system that is based on a "divide and average" mathematics of symmetric axiomatic commutative logic as the Brahmin Vedic spirituality system does.

 

Math professor Abraham Seidenberg documents the approximation of the square root of two back to 3000 BCE in India from ritual geometry altars and for use of chariot wheels - to center the wheels - and so the female circular altars had to be made the same area as the male solar altars.

 

Why? Because by 1200 BCE in India iron was more valuable than the lunar silver female energy - because iron was used to make weapons for expanding the empires of the various Brahmin kings, etc.