The Dream of the Butterfly

[Taoist Texts]

This is the important concept here, IMO.

a concept out of context is not a concept

 

In sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ, we commend to Almighty God our brother <name>; and we commit his body to the ground; earth to earth; ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The Lord bless him and keep him, the Lord make his face to shine upon him and be gracious unto him and give him peace. Amen.

http://www.kencollins.com/answers/question-27.htm

 

now its a concept

[Geof Nanto]

Darkstar, you'll have to forgive me...I tend to need to figure things out through discussion etc, but after all that, I realize that I basically agree with Moeller's premise. Though something tells me others won't be so convinced..

 

I didn’t click the “Thank you” button on this post because it would feel like I’m thanking you for asking forgiveness when I see nothing that needs forgiving.  On the contrary, your replies are most welcome – especially, but not only, for your knowledge of Chinese. Your comments read as the work of someone striving with personal  honesty towards objective translation and interpretation. There’s a lot to Moeller’s essay; it must have taken him considerable time and effort to write, similarly it also takes time and effort to fully appreciate his perspective. And even after fully understanding his perspective, agreement doesn’t necessarily follow. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by Darkstar

[Taoist Texts]

All he's explicitly said, all that is only interpretable in one way, is that living things die and are born, coming out of and going back into the system.

 

Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

i dont think so...there is no word for 'death' in the original

 

種有幾，得水則為㡭，得水土之際則為蛙蠙之衣，生於陵屯則為陵舄，陵舄得鬱棲則為烏足，烏足之根為蠐螬，其葉為蝴蝶。胡蝶，胥也化而為蟲，生於灶下，其狀若脫，其名為鴝掇。鴝掇千日為鳥，其名曰乾餘骨。乾餘骨之沬為斯彌，斯彌為食醯。頤輅生乎食醯，黃軦生乎九猷，瞀芮生乎腐蠸。羊奚比乎不筍，久竹生青寧，青寧生程，程生馬，馬生人，人又反入於機。萬物皆出於機，皆入於機。

[dust]

Hah, OK you got me. He doesn't even explicitly refer to death. So how can it be about reincarnation?

[Taoist Texts]

this is an illustrative example as to how

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation#Jainism

 

The Jain texts postulate four gatis, that is states-of-existence or birth-categories, within which the soul transmigrates. The four gatis are: deva (demi-gods), manuṣya (humans),nāraki (hell beings) and tiryañca (animals, plants and micro-organisms).^[109]

 

Single-sensed souls, however, called nigoda,^[110] and element-bodied souls pervade all tiers of this universe. Nigodas are souls at the bottom end of the existential hierarchy. They are so tiny and undifferentiated, that they lack even individual bodies, living in colonies. According to Jain texts, this infinity of nigodas can also be found in plant tissues, root vegetables and animal bodies.^[111] Depending on its karma, a soul transmigrates and reincarnates within the scope of this cosmology of destinies. The four main destinies are further divided into sub-categories and still smaller sub-sub-categories. In all, Jain texts speak of a cycle of 8.4 million birth destinies in which souls find themselves again and again as they cycle within samsara.^[112]

 

note how it is the same what ZZ is doing here. He starts with protozoa endowed with a kernel of a living soul 種有幾 which then winds its way up the life hierarchy - from a bacteria to a plant to an insect to a mammal and finally a man who then (being the crown of creation) goes back (or up) into the mechanism.

[Marblehead]

 

now its a concept

In my opinion, you should have left it alone.

[Stosh]

Jain texts are a context- out of this text, as are protozoa, -which I know arent mentioned, and dont need To read Chinese to know.

If it doesnt say death, a word which I assume yall would recognize, this reincarnation idea is being introduced by the reader. He could just say he died, and dreamed he was a critter. Additionally reincarnation ideas vary, Christian rebirth is very different from Jain.

If Zz believed in it, there would really be more needing to be said.

How one sees the leopard thing depends on whether one considers their individual selves to be preserved somehow , Watson appears to just till the self back into the machinery of the cosmos...simple as that. Which I think is a lovely simple idea, needing no forced confabulation to placate. We know its true for the body, and its supported by the idea that self is illusion.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

And yes, the "transformation of things" in this story is talking about life and death, not reincarnation.  I like to use the word "transmutation" in order for my thoughts to not be confused with reincarnation.  I doubt Chuang Tzu ever considered the concept of reincarnation.

 

And when he speaks of "Spirit" it is my understanding that he is speaking to the concept of Universal Chi (Mystery).  The "Spirit" comes out of the Mystery into the Manifest and physical life is born.

 

But yes, there is a connection between the butterfly and Chuang Tzu.  That is that both were born out of Mystery into the Manifest and upon death both will return to the Mystery to perhaps become something, or a part of something, else.  Perhaps the energy of both will become a dragonfly.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

It couldve been about death,,using the metaphor of a dream ,,,but he goes back to experiencing himself as Chuang,, reversible death ? Ummm nah.

[dust]

this is an illustrative example as to how

 

 

 

note how it is the same what ZZ is doing here. He starts with protozoa endowed with a kernel of a living soul 種有幾 which then winds its way up the life hierarchy - from a bacteria to a plant to an insect to a mammal and finally a man who then (being the crown of creation) goes back (or up) into the mechanism.

 

An example of how it is possible for us to interpret it in this way, sure, but not the only way we can interpret it, and certainly not a way that fits in with the majority of what ZZ wrote about.

 

Smallest organisms > coming out of water > more complex > bigger > more complex > ... > man

 

Looks more like evolution than reincarnation..

 

Well, either way, it's all interpretation. We can't ask him. I'll leave it at that.

Edited May 7, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

It couldve been about death,,using the metaphor of a dream ,,,but he goes back to experiencing himself as Chuang,, reversible death ? Ummm nah.

Hehehe.  You got it.  Nah!

 

And it is true, after a dream, we sometimes slowly regain realization of who we really are.  Not the butterfly.

[Marblehead]

Looks more like evolution than reincarnation..

I can't recall anything in the Chuang Tzu that would suggest that Chuang Tzu ever considered the concept of evolution either.  Change is an important concept though.

[blue eyed snake]

I would like to read this myself, is there a pdf version somewhere out there?

Being without job and with less money than i need for basics that would be nice..

 

and after reading all your comments ( for which i thank you, it made a nice read) i would like to throw in another association popping up.

 

you all seem to be of one mind that it's about change, in whatever way...

the dream was of a butterfly, which is an animal that very beautifully shows us the nature of, real transformation.

[Marblehead]

you all seem to be of one mind that it's about change, in whatever way...

the dream was of a butterfly, which is an animal that very beautifully shows us the nature of, real transformation.

Yes, the butterfly is the perfect example of "transmutation".  We can see that happen right if front of our own eyes in real time.  (Could Chuang Tzu have used the butterfly as his example on purpose?)

 

Translations of Chuang Tzu can be found here:

 

http://terebess.hu/english/lexikon/c.html

[dust]

I can't recall anything in the Chuang Tzu that would suggest that Chuang Tzu ever considered the concept of evolution either.  Change is an important concept though.

 

Yes, I'm not saying ZZ actually came up with the idea of evolution 2000 years before Darwin! Just that his explanation looks closer to the evolutionary process than it does to reincarnation. Most importantly, it looks mostly like an allegorical explanation of how life gives birth to life through a process of decay and growth.

[Marblehead]

That is good Dusty!

[Taoist Texts]

 

How one sees the leopard thing  ..is a lovely simple idea, needing no forced confabulation t

 

《六國年表》[Also known as: "Records of the Grand Historian"]

 

二十一。馬生人。

 

 A horse birthed a human.

《漢書 - Han Shu》  

史記秦孝公二十一年有馬生人，昭王二十年牡馬生子而死。

 

In year 21 of Jiao-gong there was a horse birthing a human...

 

hey, it is lovely

[Marblehead]

I really do think that a horse giving birth to a human is a bit of a fabrication.  Or is that just bullshit?

[Stosh]

    《漢書 - Han Shu》  

 

hey, it is lovely

I don't know what that means at all.  ( the horse thing) 

 

 Ecclesiastes 11:1 reads “Lay thy bread upon wet faces”

Edited May 7, 2015 by Stosh

[Taoist Texts]

For me,  物化 wuhua  is important. We cannot claim that either rememberance or forgetfulness are implied in the text; we can only infer. But we can figure out a more precise meaning for wuhua, and see if that helps.

 

Bear in mind that it literally means the changing/transformation of things/stuff:

 

物  =  things (as in wanwu, the ten thousand things)

化  =  change, transform, melt, die

 

and it seems to be a contraction of the structure 万物化生  "the ten thousand things die and are (re)born", i.e. the life cycle

 

Xcellent! So the things are reborn indeed. Now lets give it a bit of a thought. Re-born...born again. Same thing is born again. Not one thing dies and a different one is born, but the same. Otherwise its not re-birth.

 

now lets go back to OP and see what Herr Mueller is doing there

 

 

 

There is a Zhou and there is a butter­fly, so there is necessarily a distinction between them. This is called: the changing of things.

 

So, one demerit to Herr M. It must be rebirth of things not changing.

 

His second demerit is for translating 有分 as a distinction. He does not understand that 有分 means 'a chip of the same block' , previously same and now separate.

 

Now the story line of this puzzling fable is complete:

 

Zhou recalls his previous incarnation in a dream because the dream is a magical window on the past. He sees a butterfly as himself yet the butterfly does not have a recollection of being Zhou because it had not happen yet. Then he awakens and remembers him being the butterfly in the past reality, but wonders - was this dream a recollection of Zhou about the past reality OR, perhaps a present reality him being Zhou is a prescient dream of the self-aware butterfly about the future reality? Whatever it is, one thing is certain: whether in a dream or in a reality Zhou is a chip of the old butterfly block or in other words, a rebirth of it, whether in the butterfly's dream or in Zhou's reality...

[Taoist Texts]

In my opinion, you should have left it alone.

oh man, if i had a nickel...

[dust]

Not so fast!
 

Xcellent! So the things are reborn indeed. Now lets give it a bit of a thought. Re-born...born again. Same thing is born again. Not one thing dies and a different one is born, but the same. Otherwise its not re-birth.

 
'A' for effort, but you are quite obviously twisting it..
 
I put 're' in brackets () because it doesn't explicitly say "die and reborn", it says "transform/die and born", but I wanted to leave the option open.
 
It certainly doesn't say "The ten thousand things die and are reincarnated as the same soul in a different vehicle"
 
If you want to look honestly at the structure, and prove that it is definitely about reincarnation, why not use ctext to find examples like you normally do?


From the  易經  I Ching / Yi Jing:
 

天地感而萬物化生
Heaven and earth exert their influences, and there ensue the transformation and production of all things.

 

天地絪縕，萬物化醇，男女構精，萬物化生
There is an intermingling of the genial influences of heaven and earth, and transformation in its various forms abundantly proceeds;

There is an intercommunication of seed between male and female, and transformation in its living types proceeds.

(tr. Legge)

It's very clearly talking about yin and yang forces coming together to create life....

[Stosh]

Things change , or things melt, or things die,or things transform ,,, is each not a possibility by the same rationale? 10 thousand things , is that conclusively the things themselves changing? Or could it be that in the viewers mind, the world is not the same? Everything one knows looks different.

After my stroke, the whole world was different.

As I drifted off to sleep, the room melted away.

I recycled my coffee grinder and it was reborn as a flower pot.

 

Its still not dismissed that Chuang returned to being Chuang again! Fact , not reading in, The transformation was temporary. Is anyone contending he was literally reborn as a butterfly , and then somehow jumped back into the body of Chuang not as a baby, but as the same adult?

[Marblehead]

Now the story line of this puzzling fable is complete:

Well, because of your conclusion I suggest that it is comple(ly) off base.  But you go ahead on if you like the concept of reincarnation.

 

Personally, I have not seen one single piece of evidence that the concept of reincarnation is anything real or true.

[Marblehead]

oh man, if i had a nickel...

You would still be without anything of value.