The Dream of the Butterfly

[Rara]

Good to that when you awoke you were still yourself and not a butterfly.

 

Well, if I never remembered I was Rara, it wouldn't be so bad. Only that the rest of the Bums would wonder where I had gone.

 

Sounds like a good script for a supernatural film.

[dust]

Well this got deeper..

 

I don't think any of us are really 'qualified' to interpret dreams, especially one like that...so I would agree with Stosh. Forget about it. The fact that it shook you up so much means you clearly aren't seriously considering such an action, so it'd be silly to spend time worrying. Maybe you just had some bad cheese with your macaroni, or something...

 

Moving on?

 

Though I think we might have worn this whole butterfly dream conversation out for now...

Edited June 2, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Geof Nanto]

Rara, I can't agree with advice to forget about a dream like that. At the very least talking about it like you have done is surely wise. I didn't read it as a physical suicide wish at all. 

 

My immediate reaction on reading of your dream was to interpret it as an inner conflict between a desire to extinguish the self as a separate ego, and the ego's desire to live and stay in charge. This extinction is a goal of Daoist cultivation, but when the reality of such a surrender actually hits home it's extremely emotionally confronting. But such a 'death' is a vital stage for inner growth and allows the birth of a new expanded self. You were partly aware of this possibility with your dream thought, Then I kept thinking to myself, I hope there is another life coming... 

Edited June 2, 2015 by Darkstar

[dust]

I stand corrected. That sounds like a pretty qualified interpretation.

[Rara]

Rara, I can't agree with advice to forget about a dream like that. At the very least talking about it like you have done is surely wise. I didn't read it as a physical suicide wish at all.

 

My immediate reaction on reading of your dream was to interpret it as an inner conflict between a desire to extinguish the self as a separate ego, and the ego's desire to live and stay in charge. This extinction is a goal of Daoist cultivation, but when the reality of such a surrender actually hits home it's extremely emotionally confronting. But such a 'death' is a vital stage for inner growth and allows the birth of a new expanded self. You were partly aware of this possibility with your dream thought, Then I kept thinking to myself, I hope there is another life coming...

Oh definitely, I felt the need to "get it out there" and that has helped get it off my mind. I think Stosh was meaning to forget about the literal sense of it, so I don't get freaked out about it.

 

However, your take on it is uplifting I must admit, such a conflict is happening in me that I am conscious of...Nungali on this forum told me it sounds like "satun ascending"...aka growing up. In short, something seems to be automatically overriding my old self. The non-conformist, free roaming, no direction, cocky "me" IS dying. Suddenly, I find myself on the verge of proposing to my girlfriend, having driving lessons and aiming to get a secure job so that I can raise a family. Most of these things I promised myself I would never do...now I can't help any of it.

 

Such changes are coming at a price. Mood swings, crying, frustration, self-doubt...but I see all this as the child within still wanting to break out and just being suffocated by this new, um, "me".

 

That all makes sense to me I don't know if you were thinking in so much detail or if I'm just happy dot joining.

[Stosh]

Yeah, I did mean forget about it entirely. If youre coming to emotional turning points, reading your dreams is secondary. They arent messages you need to revere. That you remembered a dream.. big deal! Youre stringing dots together while awake now but were making positive change before the dream. Next dream , what about it? Youre going to chase any dream you remember? Dusty needs to buy a pogo stick? Just because a dream can be spun complimentary, or hideously ,doesnt mean you should redirect your life based on IT. Youre just falling for the flattery we are all suceptible to. Keep making positive efforts, give yourself credit, dont rely on the endorsement of crazy ass dream interpretations.

[Marblehead]

Nice to see the different perspectives - both valid from their own perspective.

 

Dreams are what they are - dreams.  They have their own significance but likely don't hold much value in our conscious life.

 

Resolution of inner conflict will reduce dreams with negative connotations.

[Geof Nanto]

Stosh, when I joined Dao Bums and saw your avatar it reminded me of an Australian slang term ‘stoush’. Reading some of your comments has only served to reinforce this image......

 

Stoush  (Definition from the OED) Australian /NZ informal

 

Pronunciation: /staʊʃ/

 

Verb:  Hit; fight with:

get out of that car while I stoush you

 

Noun: A brawl or other fight:

(Example sentences)

It's been a year of predictable stoushes and controversies that seem to have come out of nowhere.

 

The stoush between the timber industry, the conservation movement and governments, which went on for decades, was supposed to be all sorted out by now.

[Stosh]

Stosh, when I joined Dao Bums and saw your avatar it reminded me of an Australian slang term ‘stoush’. Reading some of your comments has only served to reinforce this image......

 

Stoush  (Definition from the OED) Australian /NZ informal

 

Pronunciation: /staʊʃ/

 

Verb:  Hit; fight with:

get out of that car while I stoush you

 

Noun: A brawl or other fight:

(Example sentences)

It's been a year of predictable stoushes and controversies that seem to have come out of nowhere.

 

The stoush between the timber industry, the conservation movement and governments, which went on for decades, was supposed to be all sorted out by now.

Thems fightin words , see how preconceptions can color ones perspective?  My fathers first name Stanley , nickname Stosh, and my middle name. 

[Geof Nanto]

One of my surprises – and learning experiences – that has come out of reading the various posts in this discussion is the reincarnation interpretation of the Butterfly analogy. Such a reading had never occurred to me and at first I dismissed it. However, on reading in The Daoist Tradition that the majority of contemporary mainland Chinese believe in reincarnation, I now see how the need for such a reading has arisen.  Whilst I can’t accept simplistic beliefs on the subject, to my mind it’s an area of great mystery and as such I prefer to leave it as an unknown.

 

Here are some words from C. G. Jung on the subject…….

 

ON LIFE AFTER DEATH

 

What I have to tell about the hereafter, and about life after death, consists entirely of memories, of images in which I have lived and of thoughts which have buffeted me. These memories in a way also underlie my works; for the latter are fundamentally nothing but attempts, ever renewed, to give an answer to the question of the interplay between the "here” and the "hereafter." Yet I have never written expressly  about a life after death; for then I would have had to document my ideas, and I have no way of doing that. Be that as it may I would like to state my ideas now.

 

Even now I can do no more than tell stories — "mythologise.” Perhaps one has to be close to death to acquire the necessary freedom to talk about it. It is not that I wish we had a life after death. In fact, I would prefer not to foster such ideas. Still, I must state, to give reality its due, that, without my wishing and without my doing anything about it, thoughts of this nature move about within me. I can't say whether these thoughts are true or false, but I do know they are there, and can be given utterance, if I do not repress them out of some prejudice. Prejudice cripples and injures the full phenomenon of psychic life. And I know too little about psychic life to feel that I can set it right out of superior knowledge. Critical rationalism has apparently eliminated, along with so many other mythic conceptions, the idea of life after death. This could only have happened because nowadays most people identify themselves almost exclusively with their consciousness, and imagine that they are only what they know about themselves. Yet anyone with even a smattering of psychology can see how limited this knowledge is. Rationalism and doctrinarism are the diseases of our time; they pretend In have all the answers. But a great deal will yet be discovered which our present limited view would have ruled out as impossible. Our concepts of space and time have only approximate validity, and there is therefore a wide field for minor and major deviations. In-view of all this, I lend an attentive ear to the strange myths of the psyche, and take a careful look at the varied events that come my way, regardless of whether or not they fit in with my theoretical postulates.

 

Unfortunately, the mythic side of man is given short shrift nowadays. He can no longer create fables. As a result, a great deal escapes him; for it is important and salutary to speak also of incomprehensible things. Such talk is like the telling of a good ghost story, as we sit by the fireside and smoke a pipe.

 

What the myths or stories about a life after death really mean, or what kind of reality lies behind them, we certainly do not know. We cannot tell whether they possess any validity beyond their indubitable value as anthropomorphic projections. Rather, we must hold clearly in mind that there is no possible way for us to attain certainty concerning things which pass our understanding.

 

We cannot visualise another world ruled by quite other laws, the reason being that we live in a specific world which has helped to shape our minds and establish our basic psychic conditions. We are strictly limited by our innate structure and therefore bound by our whole being and thinking to this world of ours. Mythic man, to be sure, demands a "going beyond all that," but scientific man cannot permit this. To the intellect, all my mythologising is futile speculation. To the emotions, however, it is a healing and valid activity; it gives existence a glamour which we would not like to do without. Nor is there any good reason why we should……

Edited June 3, 2015 by Darkstar

[Marblehead]

Mr. Jung was a Buddhist.  There are more Buddhist in China than anywhere else on the planet.

 

Of course Buddhists are going to believe in reincarnation.  It's part of their belief system.  Most Religious Taoists are also Buddhists.  Of course they believe in reincarnation.

 

And then there are the Alchemic and Shamanic Taoists, most of whom hold to some form of immortality.

 

And then there is me, the Marblehead, who is a hard core Materialist and Physicalist.

 

Isn't life great?!?!?

[Geof Nanto]

Mr. Jung was a Buddhist.  

 

I’ve heard Jung referred to as a Gnostic, alchemist, mystic and shaman but never a Buddhist. As to reincarnation, he states that he’s “not in a position to assert a definite opinion”. For the record here is some brief background info on Jung from Sonu Shamdasani, a research fellow at the Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine.

 

“Jung tried to provide a psychological understanding of the processes of personality transformation underlying religious, hermetic, gnostic and alchemical practices. He developed this at a time when such subjects were simply dismissed out of hand by the positivist and behaviourist practitioners dominant in psychology. For many, Jung's non-derisive attention to such subjects was enough to brand him as an occultist, a charge which he persistently denied. Nor were such statements only made from a negative perspective; many proponents of hermeticism, gnosticism, alchemy and magic were quick to claim Jung as one of their own and used his name to lend credibility to their ideas. Hence the widespread presence of works on Jungian psychology in occult bookshops, amid the amulets, crystals and New Age music.

 

Jung claimed that all the patients coming to him in the second half of their lives suffered principally from having lost a religious or spiritual faith. His work on psychology and religion not only drew the scorn of secular critics, it also evoked much controversy among religious communities. Some saw Jung's work as representing the unwelcome encroachment of psychology on to sacred terrain. Others viewed him as someone who wanted to turn psychology into a religion.

 

Jung often affirmed his Protestant identity and denied that he had founded a religion, a charge which he described as defamatory. Rather, he claimed that his psychology could revive existing religious traditions. It was towards the revitalisation of Christianity in particular that Jung dedicated much of his later work.”

 

 

And then there is me, the Marblehead, who is a hard core Materialist and Physicalist.

 

Yeah, I know that; you've made that very clear. I like it that's there's plenty of room on Dao Bums for the expression of a great diversity of beliefs; with Daoism providing a very loose common thread. It makes for an interesting ecosystem of interactions so that hopefully "the result is favorable for all parties involved, because honest and sincere introspection leads to both acknowledgement of flaws and fallacies, as well as course corrections and adjustments."  I know my perspective has been broadened and deepened by participation in discussions here. Of course, holding a fixed position has its place too in that it anchors discussion. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Darkstar

[Rara]

One of my surprises – and learning experiences – that has come out of reading the various posts in this discussion is the reincarnation interpretation of the Butterfly analogy. Such a reading had never occurred to me and at first I dismissed it. However, on reading in The Daoist Tradition that the majority of contemporary mainland Chinese believe in reincarnation, I now see how the need for such a reading has arisen. Whilst I can’t accept simplistic beliefs on the subject, to my mind it’s an area of great mystery and as such I prefer to leave it as an unknown.

 

Here are some words from C. G. Jung on the subject…….

 

ON LIFE AFTER DEATH

 

What I have to tell about the hereafter, and about life after death, consists entirely of memories, of images in which I have lived and of thoughts which have buffeted me. These memories in a way also underlie my works; for the latter are fundamentally nothing but attempts, ever renewed, to give an answer to the question of the interplay between the "here” and the "hereafter." Yet I have never written expressly about a life after death; for then I would have had to document my ideas, and I have no way of doing that. Be that as it may I would like to state my ideas now.

 

Even now I can do no more than tell stories — "mythologise.” Perhaps one has to be close to death to acquire the necessary freedom to talk about it. It is not that I wish we had a life after death. In fact, I would prefer not to foster such ideas. Still, I must state, to give reality its due, that, without my wishing and without my doing anything about it, thoughts of this nature move about within me. I can't say whether these thoughts are true or false, but I do know they are there, and can be given utterance, if I do not repress them out of some prejudice. Prejudice cripples and injures the full phenomenon of psychic life. And I know too little about psychic life to feel that I can set it right out of superior knowledge. Critical rationalism has apparently eliminated, along with so many other mythic conceptions, the idea of life after death. This could only have happened because nowadays most people identify themselves almost exclusively with their consciousness, and imagine that they are only what they know about themselves. Yet anyone with even a smattering of psychology can see how limited this knowledge is. Rationalism and doctrinarism are the diseases of our time; they pretend In have all the answers. But a great deal will yet be discovered which our present limited view would have ruled out as impossible. Our concepts of space and time have only approximate validity, and there is therefore a wide field for minor and major deviations. In-view of all this, I lend an attentive ear to the strange myths of the psyche, and take a careful look at the varied events that come my way, regardless of whether or not they fit in with my theoretical postulates.

 

Unfortunately, the mythic side of man is given short shrift nowadays. He can no longer create fables. As a result, a great deal escapes him; for it is important and salutary to speak also of incomprehensible things. Such talk is like the telling of a good ghost story, as we sit by the fireside and smoke a pipe.

 

What the myths or stories about a life after death really mean, or what kind of reality lies behind them, we certainly do not know. We cannot tell whether they possess any validity beyond their indubitable value as anthropomorphic projections. Rather, we must hold clearly in mind that there is no possible way for us to attain certainty concerning things which pass our understanding.

 

We cannot visualise another world ruled by quite other laws, the reason being that we live in a specific world which has helped to shape our minds and establish our basic psychic conditions. We are strictly limited by our innate structure and therefore bound by our whole being and thinking to this world of ours. Mythic man, to be sure, demands a "going beyond all that," but scientific man cannot permit this. To the intellect, all my mythologising is futile speculation. To the emotions, however, it is a healing and valid activity; it gives existence a glamour which we would not like to do without. Nor is there any good reason why we should……

This is a good passage.

 

I have died more than once in my dreams (and I know we are only talking dreams here....but) and still, on the very moment of actual "death", there was only ever non-existance. Words cannot describe the feeling...only, the sheer opposite of excitement I guess. Pure lifelessness.

 

Just a dream anyway, but reflective of Jung's opinion.

[Marblehead]

 

I’ve heard Jung referred to as a Gnostic, alchemist, mystic and shaman but never a Buddhist.

Okay, consider, if you will, that I last read Jung in the early 1980s when I was searching for a philosophy that I could call "my way".  My recall of what I did read could be faulty but that's the impression I got at the time.  I couldn't handle much of what he said so I put his works down.

 

 

 

Yeah, I know that; you've made that very clear.

Hehehe.  Yes, it is good that we see different perspectives here at DaoBums.  It has been said that even I have mellowed a little over the years from being subjected to others' views.