max and the SF kunlun workshop

[Sahaj Nath]

Hundun. It would help get a perspective on this if you could share with us your response to doing kunlun prior to the w/e, and also what practise you usually do, and for how long you have been doing this stuff.

It's helpful to hear different voices, and it's more helpful, if we know who is talking.

 

 

hmm... i've pretty much put it all out there in various threads, but i can try to give a sort of cliff's notes version.

 

 

 

my aim is the practice of life: for every breath to be an act of cultivation. i do have practices that i enjoy and i experiment all the time with different movements and postures, but i don't really believe any of them are very necessary. i like the way garripoli put it when he said qigong becomes a lexicon, a common language by which we communicate a universal truth. i like forms for their beauty more than anything else. most of the complete sets i know do a good job of opening up the meridians and gently loosening up the body.

 

a few of my favorites:

 

1.)wuji hundun. i think this is one of the most important foundational sets because a.) it opens the entire body, and b.) the freeform sensibility that's encouraged. only the first and last of the 18 movements are pretty static; the rest is supposed to be mixed up and played with a little differently each time. it encourages individual innovation and letting go of attachment to forms and systems. it thoroughly embraces the chaos in nature and subtly develops comfort with and acceptance of the unknown and the spontaneous.

 

unconditional acceptance can be cultivated through this approach. but it's the philosophy of it, moreso than the movements themselves, that first hooked me.

 

 

2.) wei tou qigong. not an easy system to find here in the states. not that easy to find in china, either. this is an entire system with 5 different sets (similar in design to 5-animal frolics, but VERY DIFFERENT MOVEMENTS). it's medical, martial, and spiritual, all in one. very good system for a disciplined, routine practice.

 

 

3.) shamanic tiger qigong. just beautiful! and powerful! very energizing in the fingertips. this form led to me employing the tiger palm in my healing work.

 

4.) wudan long men (dragon gate) qigong & nei gong. repetitive, so i tend to mix it up with wuji hundun for a more enjoyable practice.

 

5.)mt. emei shaking practice. lots of this. and tree stance. and cloud hands.

 

 

these are probably my top 5. i know dozens, and i teach most of them. i'm not authorized by anyone to teach, and i don't pretend to be. it's simply not necessary. i can pass a very effective transmission of energy to facilitate rapid development and healing. my transmission is stronger and more effective than a number of so-called masters out there, and this frustrates me because i don't think i'm all that far along in my development.

 

i'm really big on building a strong foundation with lots of stance, posture, and breath training. i'm also really big on keeping the tongue up! (something i think might have made a big difference in harmonizing the opening that cameron experienced.)

 

 

i study and play with tons of forms, but just so i can expand my movement vocabulary and eventually integrate what i learn into spontaneous practice. for me, that's the highest level of physical practice. plus it's fun to be able to learn from your own natural flow.

 

 

i first connected with yin qi in a conscious way when i was probably 9 years old. i didn't have a name for it or a way to intellectually relate to it, but it ignited my spiritual longing to a magnitude that couldn't just brush aside. at the age of 12 started spending many nights outside in fields and wooded areas (one of the few ways that i was fortunate to have a mother that was a shitty parent).

 

i didn't consciously recognize yang qi until a decade later, and that experience was equally organic. no teacher. no system. but i still didn't have a framework through which to understand or cultivate.

 

my first real teacher came a little more than 10 years ago, when i was about 20. he was a ninjitsu instructor and a reiki master. his control of the subtle nuances of the energy was very impressive. he had raw, natural talent, and every other reiki master i've met has been somewhat of a joke in comparison. but he didn't have the knowledge and was very unbalance. he was a power monger who manipulated and slept with his female students. i played his game and kissed his ass until i received everything he had to offer. he was the first validation that i ever got that what i was connecting with was real. so i ran with it until he couldn't teach me anything else and i left. very new-agey; even his ninjistu students, though they respected his skill, would laugh about how 'out there' and ridiculous he was. the nordic shaman-ninja-prince. lol! he wasn't a very talented healer, but his internal power was undeniable.

 

while i was "training" (i don't know that i would call it that) with him i met a qigong master who had no respect for reiki. this guy passed me a transmission that rendered me bed-ridden for nearly a week. it even temporarily shut down some of my opening that i had attained, like being able to send a stream of energy directly from my 3rd eye. it wasn't until much later that i discovered that it was a (partial) kundalini awakening and the physical and energetic adjustments went on in my body for the next two years. it would take too long to explain all of this, so i'm just gonna move on.

 

 

many other stories. brief time periods with masters of varying degrees of skill. other transmissions from other teachers, but after that transmission from the first qigong master i met, i didn't really need a physical teacher after that. i just needed technique and intuitive development in my practice.

 

i may post a few more articles about my approach. but the bottom line is it's very effective. people come to me and stick around because the results are real and because i don't make myself out to be more than what i am.

 

i've done lots of book work. read hundreds. i'm naturally gifted with the abstract and theoretical. i was naturally connected to the energy as a child before i knew what it was. i continue to study and seek more and more ways to improve my healing abilities (which sometimes gets in the way of my personal development). i've been effective at treating everything from depression to brain tumors. i'm even experimenting with a dog for the first time that has a heart tumor, and the results have been impressive. the owner of the dog subsequently became a patient AND a student.

 

i don't do flyers and i don't have a training center (though that will change in the next year). i work out of my home, i get students and patients by word of mouth, and i don't have any other job. i provide genuine service and authentic training, stripped of as much unnecessary filler as possible, and it subsidizes my spiritual life practice as i personally seek the highest levels.

[Sahaj Nath]

oh yeah,

 

though i wish the last chapter never happened,

 

my standard textbook for all my students is The Healing Promise of Qi by Roger Jahnke. i reviewed it on amazon. you'll recognize my name.

 

 

 

and Todd,

 

i would have enjoyed a conversation with you. perhaps another time. on saturday i even had 'Hundun' written under my first name on the name tag, just so other tao bums would know who i am. if you ever want to chat, send me a message. i'll even call you or give you my number if you like. i try to be very approachable.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Did you learn the Shamanic tiger chi kung from dvd or book or from the teacher himself>?

 

Can you explain the wuji hundun system?

[Sahaj Nath]

Thanks.

Did he demonstrate his empty force - someone attacking him and being reoelled.

 

yes, he did. and no, i wasn't impressed.

 

 

i hope everyone reads this.

 

actually, this was the nature of the challenge that was made to him on friday night. the man asked if he would demonstrate on someone other than his students. he offered himself, but would have been satisfied with anyone who didn't know max beforehand. at first max said that if he did that, it would cause internal bleeding because the body of an uninitiated person can't handle the magnitude of energy.

 

they guy basically called bullshit and said that he flat-out didn't buy it, said that the movie trailer was deliberately misleading, openly challenged him, and said that he would accept the consequence of internal bleeding if it were real.

 

then max's story changed a little bit.

 

then, it was "you have to meet us half-way" for ethical reasons,

 

"i'm not a martial artist." --wait a minute! i thought he could teach a ton of different martial systems?

 

"it doesn't work if someone's swinging at you."

 

he said that in the "old days" it worked because people's meridians were more open.

 

THEN he said:

 

"it works with kunlun people. but it may not work with other people. most of the time it doesn't."

 

that's a direct quote.

 

then he listed a number of other masters who also had this ability, but, like him, it only works on their students.

 

"it's a new video, and we still have to work a lot of bugs out of it, but it's not meant to be misleading. our art is real. for enlightenment, it is." --hmm... but not for the empty force, apparently.

 

i still went through the workshop in good faith and with an open mind after this. again, i could accept that he was lacking in knowledge and was compensating with sensationalism, so long as he could produce real ability in the area that *I* cared about! i could scrap all the rest of it.

 

but there was nothing there. nothing substantial.

 

 

i have patients and students who go into involuntary movements and spasms when i run my energy; i know that it happens for real. i have a student that i've taken to deep blissful states through meditation and a patient that has decided to sponsor my work because of the blissful and "out-of-body" states that she experiences when i work on her without touch.

 

but i'm no master. mastery is in the details. in the subtleties. i don't have that.

 

but neither does max. he uses jargon that makes it sound as if he's in complete control, but it's not there. and he unknowingly confessed all of that on friday as well as saturday.

 

i remained forgiving and open until sunday morning. i stayed for maybe half an hour during the stance practice which he led so badly and haphazardly that i wanted to step in and lead the class.

 

it's okay to make up what you're gonna say as you go along (though it sucks when you're bad at it); it's NOT okay to make up the concepts as you go along!

[Cameron]

I for one am totally fine with Hundun and Todd's negative responses to the workshop.

 

Just maybe have this one little thing to say...

 

Perhaps the transmission wasn't right for you rather than the entire human race.

 

Ok..that's all.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

LMAO

 

Things are looking very shady!!!

 

There have been some that have got things out of it though and as long as there happy and brings them results who can blame them i guess.

 

Hundun

 

Whats your view on the heels raised when doing his practice?

[Cameron]

Unlike you I try not to have views all day long.

 

Soooooo last 10,000 years mode...

[Sahaj Nath]

Did you learn the Shamanic tiger chi kung from dvd or book or from the teacher himself>?

 

Can you explain the wuji hundun system?

 

i learned shamanic tiger from the dvd. i memorized in about an hour and a half, and could perform it with accuracy before the day was over. what took time was listening to my body and learning what the moves were doing to me so i could teach it from experience rather than someone's authorization.

 

i wrote to master wu about the form, and that wasn't very pleasing. there's a move called "double dragon plays with the pearl" where he performs it in one direction during the complete demo, and in the opposite direction in the instructional part. he never acknowledges this anywhere in the video or the book. so i asked him to explain it, and she just wrote back and said

 

"it can be done either way."

 

that's all he said.

 

so i wrote him again, saying that i understood that, but what attracted me to his form was his vast knowledge and understanding of the nuanced significance of the motions. i told him the differences i noticed in the energy flow with each directions, and i asked directly if the change-up was intentional. i said it was okay if it wasn't; i get that these things happen. but if it WAS intentional, i'd like to know the theoretical underpinnings or significance in changing direction from his more masterful perspective. and believe it or not, i wasn't condescending about it.

 

"the significance is the changeability of the dragon."

 

again, that's all he said.

 

 

there was another inconsistency in another movement, but after that exchange i just left it alone.

 

 

i really tried not to pose my question in a challenging manner. i genuinely wanted to know more and maybe even build a dialog with him.

 

whatevs.

 

i still love the form.

 

 

wuji hundun is what gary garripoli teaches (very badly) in his book. (i actually love his book, but the instructional part sucks) i learned it in-person when i was in kauai a few years back. again, i memorized it in about an hour and a half. then i sat on it for a year or so without practicing because i was lazy and felt like i "got it." now it teaches me.

 

he actually has a video out that teaches it, but i would recommend really watching how master duan does it (they show a few bits of duan's approach on the documentary, which comes with the video) because then you can get a sense of the free form nature of it.

 

i got to learn it in person, but it wouldn't have made a difference. seriously. i have the foundational basics. i can take something from an amateur on a bad video and run with it.

 

it doesn't take a master to teach qigong forms, just like it doesn't take an olympic gold medalist to teach a P.E class.

 

the basics take time. a teacher helps with that. transmission takes a master. claim to a lineage takes a master. but none of that is necessary for authentic cultivation.

 

i'll do a separate post about the wuji hundun system. probably tomorrow. maybe in the articles section.

 

 

**EDIT**

 

 

i just realized that i wrote "transmission takes a master." that's not true, as i'm not a master. but full transmission of a particular lineage should take a master. some say it makes one a master. but i disagree.

 

just wanted to clarify.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Hundun

[Sahaj Nath]

I for one am totally fine with Hundun and Todd's negative responses to the workshop.

 

Just maybe have this one little thing to say...

 

Perhaps the transmission wasn't right for you rather than the entire human race.

 

Ok..that's all.

 

 

i absolutely agree with you, cam.

 

but if you noticed, i haven't really taken issue with the effectiveness of his transmission, other than to say it wasn't all that for me. my issue is primarily with his claim to mastery and his irresponsible teaching approach.

 

i often have to tell people that i'm not a master because they experience something so powerful and they make the mistake of believing that i directed the whole of it. i dissuade them of that notion, whereas max seems to capitalize on it.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Hundun

[portcraig]

Hundun, I think you basically trashed the whole seminar. Sorry you had such a bad time. I don't think I ever heard Max ever refer to himself as a Master, or Guru. He just said that he likes to be called Max. I definitely think his transmission is effective if you are open to it. Obviously you don't need to study with Max as you are too advanced for what he has to offer. I do think that they should change the video and take the martial arts out of it as it just causes too much controversy. Craig

[Cameron]

i absolutely agree with you, cam.

 

but if you noticed, i haven't really taken issue with the effectiveness of his transmission, other than to say it wasn't all that for me. my issue is primarily with his claim to mastery and his irresponsible teaching approach.

 

i often have to tell people that i'm not a master because they experience something so powerful and they make the mistake of believing that i directed the whole of it. i dissuade them of that notion, whereas max seems to capitalize on it.

 

 

Again, irresponsible teaching approach for you.

 

I am not going to keep repeating myself over and over.

[gendao]

I do think that they should change the video and take the martial arts out of it as it just causes too much controversy. Craig

Personally, I disagree. You start taking this out, that out, and soon you just have another over-commercialized, watered-down generic lesson plan designed to avoid any skeptical criticism whatsoever. A gutted-out version minus all the original "magic" that inspires the imagination and captured interest to begin with. Maybe Max's approach and level isn't quite for everybody - but I think it is for a decent majority of laymen.

 

I don't think Max claims to be a master, or enlightened, anyways. He prefers just to be called Max. And a lot of his playful demos are just showing what can be done under "ideal," controlled circumstances. Which are still impressive in that scenario alone.

 

Of course, Hundun appears to be at a very high level and so is going to see things with a different perspective than your average joe. In fact, sign me up whenever you decide to conduct your own classes, dude.

Edited October 15, 2007 by vortex

[Todd]

 

I don't think Max claims to be a master, or enlightened, anyways. He prefers just to be called Max. And a lot of his playful demos are just showing what can be done under "ideal," controlled circumstances. Which are still impressive in that scenario alone.

 

 

 

At the seminar I went to he claimed to be immortal. He said he had been pronounced dead twenty times. He mentioned something about documentation of this in Hong Kong, so he wasn't referring to past lives.

 

Someone asked a question about his experience after his enlightenment, and he did not say anything about not being enlightened.

 

He also mentioned finding a previously undiscovered pyramid half the size of Giza on the big island of Hawaii. He said he told some people about it, and the government took satellite photos of it, so they are going to get to it soon. But there are some other ones he didn't tell them about. Also, don't look for it on google earth, since it shows up as a white field, due to energy blocking the satellites. You need to be really good with the satellites, since the energy field goes down for only a minute and a half.

 

I don't mind being told lies, since everything is a lie from a certain perspective. (Everything is right from a certain perspective too, Cam. I am not attacking you, or anyone's experience, here.) However, please don't ask me to believe you when you tell me lies. It makes me think you don't want me to see the truth.

 

I could be wrong though. All of this could be true. I've only got my gut and my eyes and my intelligence to go by. Mostly my gut though.

[Smile]

[Cameron]

attacking,not attacking, thinking about attacking, thinking about not attacking.

 

It's all good.

[bindo]

I'm beginning to think I went to a different seminar.

[Mal]

I had a long post that deleted itself when I though I had pressed send. I'll take that as a "sign"

 

But I like to hear all the different views. Discussion is good and everyone is being polite.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Any dates to when Max comes out to Oz?

[Sahaj Nath]

[Mantra68]

Hundun,

You little stinker.

 

One song keeps rolling through my head as I read your ka-ka: "smile in your face, all the time they want to take your place, backstabbers, backstabbers..."

 

Wow. You know after your first email in which you "announced your presence" to me I thought "oh great, another egotistical healer-syndrome-chump." Then when I met you, you seemed like a really nice guy. Now we are seeing the first guy again.

 

Here is the problem with Mr. Hundun: ego.

 

When you do Kunlun it is always the people who have the air of pride about them that get NO results. The problem becomes compounded when they look around and see everyone else is opening up. The ego cannot deal with this and the reaction is not good. In this case it was a quick exit on day two right before the dreaded Kunlun failure was about to be faced again.

 

Honestly man, you don't actually have much ability at this point. The ego makes it very hard to develop the real thing, because the real thing is all about feel. When you feel your way, you have to FEEL all of the shortcomings that cause the creation of a imbalanced ego in the first place.

 

After you left (mumbling about parlor tricks and how you could do all this stuff yourself) the group really opened up. It was awesome.

 

The Tibetan Buddhists that were in attendance had amazing breakthroughs and they understood the fullness of what Max has to offer. They know who he is and how very rare it is to find someone at his level.

 

Again, from the outside, this stuff looks like a different bird. If you are sensitive or have had some experience with these types of energies, then you see the value.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Mantra68

[rain]

Hundun,

You little stinker.

 

One song keeps rolling through my head as I read your ka-ka: "smile in your face, all the time they want to take your place, backstabbers, backstabbers..."

 

Wow. You know after your first email in which you "announced your presence" to me I thought "oh great, another egotistical healer-syndrome-chump." Then when I met you, you seemed like a really nice guy. Now we are seeing the first guy again.

 

Here is the problem with Mr. Hundun: ego.

 

When you do Kunlun it is always the people who have the air of pride about them that get NO results. The problem becomes compounded when they look around and see everyone else is opening up. The ego cannot deal with this and the reaction is not good. In this case it was a quick exit on day two right before the dreaded Kunlun failure was about to be faced again.

 

Honestly man, you don't actually have much ability at this point. The ego makes it very hard to develop the real thing, because the real thing is all about feel. When you feel your way, you have to FEEL all of the shortcomings that cause the creation of a imbalanced ego in the first place.

 

After you left (mumbling about parlor tricks and how you could do all this stuff yourself) the group really opened up. It was awesome.

 

The Tibetan Lamas that were in attendance had amazing breakthroughs and they understood the fullness of what Max has to offer. They know who he is and how very rare it is to find someone at his level.

 

Again, from the outside, this stuff looks like a different bird. If you are sensitive or have had some experience with these types of energies, then you see the value.

 

chris

with respect

you're the invisible one right now. loads of resources. you too

where is your compassion please?

[Mantra68]

I'm beginning to think I went to a different seminar.

Gordon, you did. You were at the seminar experienced by the clear mind.

 

It was good to see you.

 

Now you see the challenge we face in trying to present this stuff to the masses. You get all types.

 

The reality is that this stuff is not for everyone, but for those whose sole interest is healing and/or enlightenment this is as good as you will find.

[hugo]

I for one appreciate the review Hundun. You're saying what you need to say and if that requires being critical then so be it. I'm still keen to see Max when he comes out but I appreciate have a more well rounded view and you've helped to provide this. Thanks.

[dakini]

I really think you've taken this a little far. You have been rude and very disrespectful in trashing a very wonderful person. This practice is not for everyone. Obviously it's not for you. This practice is about direct experience. If you gave it a chance you would have figured out everything Max teaches is true. You didn't even stay for the second day, yet you are making these very "matter of fact" determinations. Yes, there are some very outstanding claims that are made. I will agree. However, direct experience has taught me that they are true. It's likely you will never find out. That's okay. Maybe someday you will be ready to experience what is really down the rabbit hole. Maybe not.

[Mantra68]

I for one appreciate the review Hundun. You're saying what you need to say and if that requires being critical then so be it. I'm still keen to see Max when he comes out but I appreciate have a more well rounded view and you've helped to provide this. Thanks.

The practice stands the test of time. Opinions are as vast as the universe. Everyone is entitled to their own.

 

Kunlun is not for everyone. That is OK.

 

The two people who had no response gave bad reviews. That is unfortunate but very understandable.

 

Had they blasted open into the absurdity of the Tao, they might have a different review. In time I hope they experience the things the rest of the group did.