Too much jing is an issue

[nickyro]

On TTB we constantly hear about how you need retention, how you need to accumulate jing with whatever food / lifestyle/ practice.

 

My experience  so far:

 

-I can generate unbearable amount of psychic energy (sublimated sexual energy) within just 2-3 days after ejaculation with the right lifestyle, so... the long term retention and its benefits are questionable. 

If you don't feel this increased psychic energy with 2-3 days then the MCO is NOT active and further retention is absolutely the WORST thing you can do do.

 

-High jing foods as chickpeas,adzukis, black beans (or meat) can resplenish the jing lost within a few hours after ingestion.

 

-I always end up with blocked MCO within two weeks if I do retention with those foods (then the body dosen't want to digest them anymore and you end up with diarrhea and , the body is full of this jing and can't process it anymore, and there is a progressive stase of psychic energy).

You can practice anything you want  (bring fire at LDT, meditation, yoga...)you can't restart the engine and fire until you stop retention.

 

So maybe it is time TTB stop with this outdated reductionist dogma. 

 

Thank you

[Aetherous]

To really say whether jing is full or not, at least in my view it's important to look at signs and symptoms in Chinese medical diagnosis, in addition to spiritual sources of info. Being unable to digest lots of beans after a while and having diarrhea, might not be a sign of full jing...but just a sign that the Spleen qi isn't doing so well because of that diet (maybe, just a guess). It could be excess damp, rather than excess jing.

One really easy way to tell whether the kidney and jing are doing okay or not...stick out your tongue and look in the mirror. See the back part of your tongue, where it's said the kidney and intestines areas are...is there a dip in the center in the back? Or does it go flat all the way across? If there's a dip, it indicates a deficiency of substance (kidney yin or jing). I've personally noticed with breathing practice and meditation, if there is a good session, the tongue will be flat across in the back afterward, indicating that the methods have positively impacted the jing and kidney function. If I don't practice for a while and also get exhausted from things, then perhaps there will be a slight dip back there. For normal healthy people there shouldn't be a dip...but not everyone is normal or healthy, and kidneys start taking a hit in most people.

We want to always keep our kidney function healthy, and not be tapping into our prenatal jing (shortening our lifespan). Eating what people say are jing increasing foods might not actually increase the jing...for instance if your diet causes the Spleen to become deficient, despite eating those foods as advertised for increasing jing, then that poor digestion will be taxing the Kidneys and somewhat the jing, and also not creating sufficient qi and blood which could otherwise nourish the kidneys and restore the postnatal jing. Not everything that people say regarding various foods or medicines is accurate...what is said to boost the jing might actually have an opposite effect of that based on people's misunderstandings and lack of experience with it.

In terms of spiritual ideas about whether jing is full or not...I've heard it said from one source that if you don't desire sex, then it's a sign that your jing has been filled for the time being. I suppose another sign is that you seem to have a healthy glow to your skin.

 

Regarding whether to be celibate or to ejaculate...well, I'm of the opinion that both are extremes. Celibacy is good for all of the time that you're doing okay with it. When you start going nuts, getting super aggressive and overly lustful about any little thing, then perhaps it's time to be sexual. This is just my personal opinion, and is more oriented toward health and functioning in the real world, rather than spiritual pursuit. For the latter, celibacy is probably good...but that must include mind training in order to bypass the lust/aggression etc.

[henro]

Great post Aetherous!!!

 

"Psychic energy", does not always correlate with "full" jing. It could be scattered shen, and a host of other things. If you're transforming/reabsorbing the sexual energy and fluids correctly you should feel calm, but full of energy, not stagnated. 

Edited May 12, 2015 by henro

[voidisyinyang]

first of all you don't want to "retain" jing or retain fluids, etc.

 

You want to transform them into qi energy.

 

When the lower tan tien is full then the body will be full of qi energy - and then eating food is not that necessary. At this stage doing a full meditation fast - a energy feast - will then really amp up the qi energy - yang qi energy.

 

But psychic energy is just from yin qi energy and you can get that without the lower tan tien being full of yin qi energy yet - until it's full then the yang qi energy won't kick in.

 

Diet depends on numerous factors - how much exercise, your age, your past history of celibacy - the loss of yuan qi, etc.

[nickyro]

To really say whether jing is full or not, at least in my view it's important to look at signs and symptoms in Chinese medical diagnosis, in addition to spiritual sources of info. Being unable to digest lots of beans after a while and having diarrhea, might not be a sign of full jing...but just a sign that the Spleen qi isn't doing so well because of that diet (maybe, just a guess). It could be excess damp, rather than excess jing.

 

One really easy way to tell whether the kidney and jing are doing okay or not...stick out your tongue and look in the mirror. See the back part of your tongue, where it's said the kidney and intestines areas are...is there a dip in the center in the back? Or does it go flat all the way across? If there's a dip, it indicates a deficiency of substance (kidney yin or jing). I've personally noticed with breathing practice and meditation, if there is a good session, the tongue will be flat across in the back afterward, indicating that the methods have positively impacted the jing and kidney function. If I don't practice for a while and also get exhausted from things, then perhaps there will be a slight dip back there. For normal healthy people there shouldn't be a dip...but not everyone is normal or healthy, and kidneys start taking a hit in most people.

 

We want to always keep our kidney function healthy, and not be tapping into our prenatal jing (shortening our lifespan). Eating what people say are jing increasing foods might not actually increase the jing...for instance if your diet causes the Spleen to become deficient, despite eating those foods as advertised for increasing jing, then that poor digestion will be taxing the Kidneys and somewhat the jing, and also not creating sufficient qi and blood which could otherwise nourish the kidneys and restore the postnatal jing. Not everything that people say regarding various foods or medicines is accurate...what is said to boost the jing might actually have an opposite effect of that based on people's misunderstandings and lack of experience with it.

 

In terms of spiritual ideas about whether jing is full or not...I've heard it said from one source that if you don't desire sex, then it's a sign that your jing has been filled for the time being. I suppose another sign is that you seem to have a healthy glow to your skin.

 

Regarding whether to be celibate or to ejaculate...well, I'm of the opinion that both are extremes. Celibacy is good for all of the time that you're doing okay with it. When you start going nuts, getting super aggressive and overly lustful about any little thing, then perhaps it's time to be sexual. This is just my personal opinion, and is more oriented toward health and functioning in the real world, rather than spiritual pursuit. For the latter, celibacy is probably good...but that must include mind training in order to bypass the lust/aggression etc.

 

Many thanks for you answer.

I did the most extreme anti dampness, anti kapha diet to know if that perfectly appealing theory of dampness was right. (from jan to march 2015 in my notebook)

It wasn't. It looks like retention brings a ever increasing dampness to the intestine and kill the fire I tried to build.

I could eat a toaster it wouldn't be enough.

Now I understand why semen/sexual energy is called water in alchemy.

 

 

 

I lost a lot of time with this broken paradigm, I just want to prevent other people to lose there time.

Trunk's alchemical taoism page on Jing dangers was very wise, it is sad to see Jing as a perfectly safe substance you want to greedily build up.

Edited May 12, 2015 by nickyro

[nickyro]

Great post Aetherous!!!

 

"Psychic energy", does not always correlate with "full" jing. It could be scattered shen, and a host of other things. If you're transforming/reabsorbing the sexual energy and fluids correctly you should feel calm, but full of energy, not stagnated. 

 

I didn't  correlate "Psychic energy", with "full" jing, it is not something you read in my post.

I say I can sublimate already huge amount of qi/shen without having to retain jing a long time.

[nickyro]

first of all you don't want to "retain" jing or retain fluids, etc.

 

You want to transform them into qi energy.

 

When the lower tan tien is full then the body will be full of qi energy - and then eating food is not that necessary. At this stage doing a full meditation fast - a energy feast - will then really amp up the qi energy - yang qi energy.

 

But psychic energy is just from yin qi energy and you can get that without the lower tan tien being full of yin qi energy yet - until it's full then the yang qi energy won't kick in.

 

Diet depends on numerous factors - how much exercise, your age, your past history of celibacy - the loss of yuan qi, etc.

 

My alchemical process is doing this to an extent (ecstasy, charisma, no need to sleep long etc...). If I maintain longer retention then everything stops and the engine is broken.

I think everything gets simpler when someone reach your qi gong level, until then I need moderation.

Edited May 12, 2015 by nickyro

[Cheshire Cat]

-I can generate unbearable amount of psychic energy (sublimated sexual energy) within just 2-3 days after ejaculation with the right lifestyle, so... the long term retention and its benefits are questionable. 

If you don't feel this increased psychic energy with 2-3 days then the MCO is NOT active and further retention is absolutely the WORST thing you can do do.

 

For a small bucket, the water of a little pond is an immense quantity of liquid.

 

The point of cultivation is not about filling the bucket with the water of the pond: that would be easy,

Cultivation is about turning the bucket into a big water tank.

[Songtsan]

Depends how old you are, and how much you can handle not sleeping and feeling like you are on speed. If proper relaxation is learned, one can keep the body in a relaxed, buttery, blissful state and walk around in dream-like trance states 24/7...walking Samadhi.

[flowconduit]

Eating unsprouted beans will most likely get you diarrhea no matter how much jing you have 

[nickyro]

Eating unsprouted beans will most likely get you diarrhea no matter how much jing you have 

It is sprouted. Yes thank you, this could be an explanation, I also thought about this.

 

And this is a process happening with meat or anything jing related, not bean,  at a precise moment in cultivation like 1 week or 2 week after retention, there is relation of causality that I managed to isolate via a rigourous analytical investigation for more than a year now.

Edited May 12, 2015 by nickyro

[Songtsan]

Also, in India there are those wandering sadhus and avadhutas they like to call 'God intoxicated' - drunk on their own sublimated energies...the term 'ojas' is equivalent to jing...try brahmacharya lifestyle for a while and learn its advantages....just remember to stay calm and equanimous with all that bliss, or risk appearing 'crazy'

[Jeff]

For a small bucket, the water of a little pond is an immense quantity of liquid.

 

The point of cultivation is not about filling the bucket with the water of the pond: that would be easy,

Cultivation is about turning the bucket into a big water tank.

 

Important point. But rather than just an increasing larger tank, one should come to realize that one is the water itself, then there is less need to worry about the size of the bucket...

[voidisyinyang]

again I urge you to question your intention of retention.

 

The intention of retention is the problem.

 

Alchemy or qigong or whatever "tm" term that is trademarked secretly - it is based on the fire under the water.

 

Fire is your intention as shen light energy.

 

If your intention is retention - then your intention is retarded because you ain't getting no fire under your water.

 

Retention means you're intention is to hold onto your water.

 

That will cause problems.

 

As for diet - diarehha - a word I don't want to know how to spell - that could be caused by serotonin syndrome.

 

It is possible - I'm not saying that is why you get it.

 

But for example for me when I get overactive vagus nerve from sugar - I used to drink vinegar and obviously vinegar flushes out the colon - which could be perceived as diarrhea.

 

O.K. so my point is overactive vagus nerve is from the too strong serotonin.

 

Internal bliss will switch the dopamine to serotonin - so you should be experiencing an internal orgasm sensation.

 

That kicks in for me after the legs are totally numb - it clears out by the vagus nerve kicking in an internal orgasm.

 

I'm just saying - instead of retention - you first need proper sublimation.

 

Another way to do this is horse stance until legs are vibrating 7 times per second.

 

For example if you are about to lose a load from not purifying your energy - but you stop yourself from losing it - so then you have lots of jing energy right?

 

Well at that point of tons of jing energy - you do horse stance and presto - the only way to properly sublimate it is to get those legs vibrating 7 times per second - and since you have tons of jing energy you can do that - stand while the legs are just vibrating away 7 times per second and this also is an internal orgasm experience of proper sublimation.

 

So it's the ELF waves of the collagen vibrating - the bones vibrating - the ELF waves of the theta REM visionary brain state that will then convert your fluids back into yin qi energy.

 

The ELF waves naturally resonate the heart fire energy which is your spirit energy expressed as the REM state.

 

So a third way is to meditate with bare feet on the ground since the earth is always getting hit by lightning.

 

I guess some call that "grounding" - but the thing is that you get the internal tingling again.

 

The reason is the earth getting hit by lightning all the time - it is a direct source of yin qi energy.

 

So building up yin qi energy is a sign of purification - but the key is to build up the purification - that's what is the ultimate challenge.

 

Since you can lose yin qi energy out of your eyes, etc.

 

Also flattery will not work since half the time I have qigong illness or whatever and have the time I am sending energy into people - but it's just yin qi energy. Yin qi energy is not advanced energy. haha. I mean sending yin qi energy into people is a type of qigong illness but it is symptomatic of society being ill and then it causing internal illness.

 

For example extreme stress will then cause an opposite extreme of serotonin from parasympathetic rebound - and that also can cause diarrhea. Or at least your gonna flush out the colon from that.

 

But yeah runny stool or whatever - that could just be from your diet - sprouts could do that.

 

It's an issue of soft fiber versus hard fiber or whatever.

 

For example eat a lot of fruit and it's gonna seem like you got diarrhea - that's just from all the soft fiber.

 

Soft fiber is actually better over all - too much hard fiber and it will stop you up.

 

Don't eat charcoal by the way - I mean like biochar from burning wood. Terrible terrible pain trying to clear that out - it just sticks in the colon.

 

That's the limit of dietary purification I guess.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[Songtsan]

Dude, you rock! Holy shit!

[nickyro]

Yea thank you innersoundqigong

 

So my understanding is that I have too much water for not enough fire, I flooded my LDT which cannot produce "steam" anymore. No matter how much fire I try to put it is not working.

But as soon as I stop retention the steam is produced again, i feel it.

Edited May 12, 2015 by nickyro

[voidisyinyang]

uuumm -

 

You have not enough Quick Fire.

 

ONly Quick Fire has the power to change water back into steam - as Taoist  Yoga states.

 

Alchemy is all based on fire.

 

there's quick fire - which is the power of deep fast breathing - and only that deep fast breathing is strong enough to turn fluid back into qi energy.

 

Calm fire is the use of shen to get the light energy as fire underneath the water - to ionize it - as a laser does.

 

The thing about Quick Fire and horse stance - you got the glute muscles flexing - this is what draws the energy up the spine - the pc muscle is relaxed.

 

So yeah horse stance is the best for Quick Fire.

 

For example if you have any kind of vibration in the reproductive organ - that means you got too much water and not enough fire - and only Quick Fire will fix that.

 

So horse stance with thighs parallel is best.

 

There's also bench pressing - deep diaphgram breathing from that.

 

So when you first start out training - you need three times more Quick Fire than  Calm Fire - the passive sitting meditation.

 

But still you need Calm Fire too - an even mix of Ming and Xing.

 

Then you can study the Taoist Yoga book for the other types of fire.

[Gerard]

So maybe it is time TTB stop with this outdated reductionist dogma. 

 

How old are you? And also what's your DOB?

[Gerard]

 When you start going nuts, getting super aggressive and overly lustful about any little thing, then perhaps it's time to be sexual.

 

This approach doesn't solve the root of the problem, I'm afraid.

 

Liver fire (lust, anger, frustration as mental defilements) is the cause, which slowly depletes life and won't address something you have been 'carrying on your shoulders' for countless lifetimes, very slowly you go down the drain; that is if you are seeking escaping rebirth and karma.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Gerard

[hagar]

The issues you present have nothing at all to do with fullness of the essential water. Firstly, it is not the bodily fluids, and secondly it is not conditioned. All the symptomes you describe only points to imbalance of some sort. 

We all have them, yet speaking of Nei Dan as sublimation of sexual energy is missing the mark.

 

Sublimation of the essential water is not derived from conditioned elements, and the essential light (Shen) is not psychic energy.

 

When a bottle is almost empty, it makes alot of sound while poured. However , fullness of the essential water is still, and is reluctant to leave its container.

 

The signs of the water being full is yin, stillness, quiet. Nowhere do you sense any overpowering energy. The same is true for the true , essential fire. It is calm, steady, dry, light and pure vibration, not anything spectacular.

The Shen is only space, light and radiation. Like a filament you cannot see. 

It has nothing to do with energetic, mental phenomena.

Instead, it is just spacious, bright and absolutely sublime.

When you experience it, it is an experience so profound that you never want it to leave.

 

Retentin in moderation is sound, but has nothing to do with the presence of absence of the real alchemical process.

 

If we could replenish our Jing with food, then we all would be immortals.

 

h

[voidisyinyang]

"If generative force [jing] is not purified, prenatal vitality [yuan qi] will not develop;"

 

p. 32

 

 

"If the heart is affected by sexual desire the generative force [jing] becomes sullied and changes into postnatal generative fluid...."

 

 p. 34

 

 

"With inner fire [yin qi] soaring up in his body his (essential) nature is replaced by his heart so that desires and passions fill his being." p. 17

 

 

so that is the problem of the yin qi getting lost out of the eyes via the heart. This is the stage that I can not get passed.

 

 

"So by troubling his heart and body he dissipates his vitality....."

 

 

So that is the problem of the fire yin qi and yin shen leaving out of the eyes and so then the yuan qi goes down the spine and turns into fluid.

 

This is called "Fire kindled by breathing" - Quick Fire.

 

It changes the generative fluid into generative force.

 

p. 46.

 

So on page 11 it says - that if you don't keep your tongue against the roof of the mouth - then the saliva increases the production of white fluid which disturbs the heart since it is generative fluid.

 

"When the genital duct dilates women are liable to lose their virginity...."

 

So that is exactly the problem with females being attracted to the jing energy - whether it is yin jing or yang jing as yin qi energy.

 

 

'Fire kindled by breathing transforms the generative fluid derived from the digestion of food, into generative force. Fire derived from spirit transforms the generative force into vitality. Fire derived from (prenatal) vitality purifies breathing and contributes to the manifestation of spirit. Spiritual fire sublimates spirit which will return to the state of nothingness. Thus from start to finish the successful practice of immortality is by means of fire.'

 

Feng Huo Ching quoted in Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality, p. 46.

 

 

It's not that restoring jing by food is wrong - it's just that the energy has to be purified by Emptiness focus and this is very difficult.

[opendao]

The issues you present have nothing at all to do with fullness of the essential water. Firstly, it is not the bodily fluids, and secondly it is not conditioned. All the symptomes you describe only points to imbalance of some sort. 

 

agree, it's a simple Yin / Yang postheaven dis-balance, caused by the life style, food, and improper practices (MCO etc). Sure, retention adds to that. 

 

It has no relation to Neidan practice, it has no relation to preheaven Water and Fire. I don't know why people jump to conclusions so quickly....

 

If we could replenish our Jing with food, then we all would be immortals.

 

right. But people prefer to believe that they can reverse food into yuan jing. So naive...

[voidisyinyang]

The yuan qi depends on food for replenishment

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=KzCqAy24uNkC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=transforming+food+into+yuan+qi&source=bl&ots=1HRgcTkO2J&sig=W2QCAFPLzvrlzZnBl8cC1Mq12RE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3bRXVeLEFcvtsAWXkoGoBg&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=transforming%20food%20into%20yuan%20qi&f=false

[Aetherous]

https://books.google.com/books?id=KzCqAy24uNkC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=transforming+food+into+yuan+qi&source=bl&ots=1HRgcTkO2J&sig=W2QCAFPLzvrlzZnBl8cC1Mq12RE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3bRXVeLEFcvtsAWXkoGoBg&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=transforming%20food%20into%20yuan%20qi&f=false

 

That link also says, I quote, "yuan qi is the postnatal qi". 

[voidisyinyang]

That link also says, I quote, "yuan qi is the postnatal qi". 

 

direct quote please - gossip doesn't count.

 

 

MR.MA: Yes, this is very important condition. My teacher told me that at the very beginning - if you want to develop true skill, you must be like a monk, living in celibacy. There is a story about "Coal" Ma, who was selling coal in Beijing's Caishikou. When he started to study Baguazhang from Dong Haichuan, he took his quilt and moved out to live in the shop. He lived there for three years and did not return home even once during that time.

 

Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse. i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e. recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is required to open Small Heavenly Circle.

 

Master Ma ChuanXu, who is one of the greatest Bagua Zhang masters alive today. During the interview he was asked about "Light Skill", below is part of the interview:

 

http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?2857-Light-Skill