Cardio and Chi Kung

[Wun Yuen Gong]

What do you guys think of adding cardio workouts with chi kung standing and seated meditation methods?

 

Do they mix or interfer, is cardio important to a Taoist or buddhist if so or not "WHY"?

 

Cheers

WYG

[Cameron]

I do combat conditioning and Aikido.

 

My feeling is it is important but probably some purists would say you don't need it.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I thought cardio will get the blood pumping and moving and if blood is moving so is chi. I watched a Kundalini Yoga dvd that has seated med with cardio looking movements that work the spine, just thought maybe that good cardio will enhance the internal training. I know of some chi kung masters that say you dont need cardio cause you will burn out the chi!!!!

 

[Cameron]

Yeah..I dont' know that you need it.

 

But for me..feels like that would be good/balanced.

 

Sort of like..an individual thing...like...man..

[Mal]

What do you guys think of adding cardio workouts with chi kung standing and seated meditation methods?

 

Do they mix or interfer, is cardio important to a Taoist or buddhist if so or not "WHY"?

 

Cheers

WYG

 

Well my Sifu is a Christian but the way he explains it.

Chi gungs get the heart going, refresh the blood and build up your energy. \

Going for a run breaks down your energy and your heart races to catch up with your body.

 

He is not a fan of cardio, but then he is skiny and does not need to lose weight

 

Are people that do a lot of chi gungs healthy vs people who do a lot of cardio?

 

Being fit is not the same as being healthy.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

But there is alot of Fat Sifu's and over weight means they are unhealth regardless unless they have a decease!?

 

I think some type of tension or body wieght training to help the body and this will get the heart pumping.

[nightwatchdog]

Internal martial arts have cardiovascular components built right in, so there is a very reliable precedent for cardio fitness. Even Yang Taichi has a fast set, and it's one of the "softest" styles out there.

 

I see no reason not to include it, just build up your fitness slowly and gradually, avoiding excessive work that exhausts you. You want to feel energized after exercising, not wiped-out.

[Mal]

But there is alot of Fat Sifu's and over weight means they are unhealth regardless

 

Mmmmmmm. It's possible to be "fat" and still have better health than someone "skinny" But I'm nitpicking and had to cut out your disease bit for the quote to work

 

avoiding excessive work that exhausts you. You want to feel energized after exercising, not wiped-out.

 

That's a very good way to put it.

[Mal]

I think some type of tension or body wieght training to help the body and this will get the heart pumping.

 

Getting out of my depth, but I think it's a different approach.

 

The Chi Gungs I know for Tong Long manipulate the heart via controling the breathing, all of them are quite strenuous. It feels like you have had a workout when you finish and my pulse is up where it is when I jog (65% ~70% Max heart rate) & lots of sweating.

 

Cardio (i.e. running) moves the body so much that heart has to to "catch up" and then the lungs try to "catch up" The breathless feeling seems to be the "bad thing" about cardio from a Chi Gung perspective. Perhaps cardio like Walking and Jogging (no breathlessness) would be better? I once read of a Chi Gung way of running on "one breath"

 

Running seem to be the cardio that my sifu does not like. Many of us are fat, I still am after losing 30kg. But he just tells us to "stop eating so much" Our weight is not the thing holding back our kung fu and he really doesn't put any emphasis on being "fit" but really encorages us do Tai Chi to "Build up what Tong Long breaks down"

[nightwatchdog]

What style of Tong Long Chuan do you practice, Mal?

[Yoda]

I prefer EZ cardio over moving chikung myself. I think the impact of walking or jogging is good for the bones and good for grounding.

[Cameron]

Yes..but if you enjoy eating it is sort of hard to lose weight without excercise.

 

I am going to see if I can do a more ehalthy diet of fruits and lean emat instead of Max's diet.

 

Maybe once you become an Immortal whether you eat pizza, fish and chips or bluberries doesnt' make much difference.

 

I don't know.

[Taomeow]

I thought cardio will get the blood pumping and moving and if blood is moving so is chi. I watched a Kundalini Yoga dvd that has seated med with cardio looking movements that work the spine, just thought maybe that good cardio will enhance the internal training. I know of some chi kung masters that say you dont need cardio cause you will burn out the chi!!!!

 

 

 

They are absolutely correct.

 

In a normal healthy scenario, Qi Moves Blood. If you "get the blood pumping and if blood is moving so is qi," you are "forcing" your blood to move by using li (crude muscular strength or "dumb force" of taiji classics) and going against your qi. Qi can be damaged by force, spent, used up, burned -- and moved in all the wrong ways. In the right way it can only be moved by yi, its 'superior,' not by blood its subordinate; and increased by increasing jing, not li. Look at it this way... jing is your savings account, qi is your checking account, li is your expenditures. If you increase li, your expenditures, you do get your checking account "moving," and eventually your savings account too. But in which direction? "Cardio" simply means writing a lot of checks against whatever jing and qi you have, spending them. As the cartoon version of Bill Gates in The Simpsons put it, "I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks!"

Edited October 16, 2007 by Taomeow

[nightwatchdog]

They are absolutely correct.

 

In a normal healthy scenario, Qi Moves Blood. If you "get the blood pumping and if blood is moving so is qi," you are "forcing" your blood to move by using li (crude muscular strength or "dumb force" of taiji classics) and going against your qi. Qi can be damaged by force, spent, used up, burned -- and moved in all the wrong ways. In the right way it can only be moved by yi, its 'superior,' not by blood its subordinate; and increased by increasing jing, not li. Look at it this way... jing is your savings account, qi is your checking account, li is your expenditures. If you increase li, your expenditures, you do get your checking account "moving," and eventually your savings account too. But in which direction? "Cardio" simply means writing a lot of checks against whatever jing and qi you have, spending them. As the cartoon version of Bill Gates in The Simpsons put it, "I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks!"

 

I'd say they are for the most part absolutely correct.

 

One thing to note here though: superior martial artists are ALWAYS superior athletes as well. It is possible to gradually and safely build Chi and Jing to a level that allows you to move athletically, and enjoy a high level of fitness without expending Chi.

 

To use your example, Chi is more like a line of credit attached to your savings than a checking account. The more Jing you have, the more Chi you may "borrow against." You strengthen your Chi through Chi Kung, and ideally you nourish and build Jing as well. Abundant Jing + strong Chi = health. Add Li to that and you have a fit AND healthy person.

 

As far as training is concerned, it's not an either/or proposition. Its all in how you go about the task. If I were interested in running a marathon, most western coaches would tell me to just hit the track and run a few miles every day. The goal would be faster and longer runs accomplished as quickly as possible. I might use vitamins as a supplement, I'd treat sore muscles (which I'd have in spades) with hot showers and lots of pain killers, and I'd be careful not to "waste" any effort in any other way. I'd be too exhausted to do anything else anyway. Using western methods I'd be able to run the marathon in a few months, though I'd have no chance of winning. I'd also be completly drained and possibly injured afterword.

 

An internal martial artist who was coaching me for the marathon would suggest a totally different method. I would undergo a strong Chi Kung practice coupled with an herbal tonic that builds and protects Jing. I would start walking or slow jogging very gradually, and add distance and speed over a period of months. It would probably take me about 6 months to get to where most runners first start out. As my Chi Kung practice got stronger, it would support my running practice, and they'd build up together. Using this method, I'd be ready for a marathon in three or four years... depending on the venue I'd probably win, and I'd recover from the event very fast with little to no chance of injury.

 

These anecdotes are supported by my personal experience, but again, I submit that this is the very approach used by all of the major internal martial arts. The masters who use these methods are some of the healthiest, strongest, longest lived people in the world, with Chi development that far exceeds the norm even among most Chi Kung practitioners.

[Taomeow]

Oh, I don't disagree at all, athletic is great --

 

but athletic the way, e.g., I remember being that at age, say, 7 or 8, when running all day, climbing trees, biking, swimming, just having no reason in my bones to sit still didn't harm me one bit. That's because athleticism that comes from the spontaneous joy of movement is never spending more than you can afford to spend. It is quite naturally and smoothly regulated by your internal "coaches" -- your feelings, senses, emotions, or in TCM terms, your Po.

 

Not so when one decides in the head to work towards accomplishing an athletic goal -- e.g., running a marathon, doing cardio towards the latest medical fad's idea of health or mass media's, of beauty. This is the kind of decision that doesn't come from the spontaneous joy of movement, and the internal coaches are summarily fired, people just ignore what their bodies are telling them and are forcing the latter to do what the head has decided, "it's for your own good, body, so why don't you just shut up and obey!"

 

Of course if one's resources of qi and jing are sufficient, either because they are backed up by specific good practice or because one got plenty at birth and hasn't yet lived long and hard enough to dip into them too deeply, there's no harm in doing things athletic towards any other goal than the sheer purposeless joy of movement of a healthy child (and an adult of any age who managed to preserve it.) Also, someone who hasn't moved in a long time will benefit from giving himself/herself any kind of kick to get going -- but this kick is going to have to come from yi anyway! Athletes with an ax to grind, with a goal, an agenda (that is coming from other sources than one's own body asking for the pleasure of movement and competence in that and a sense of suppleness), also have to give themselves a willpower kick to do what they do -- and that's zhi, the kind of will that depletes the Kidneys (and jing...) when used as the source of momentum to get going. In other words, what I'm trying to say is, the inner meaning of movement is the ultimate deciding factor in whether it's going to benefit or harm, you can't judge by external behavior only. Qi is interesting in that it is not unconscious and not meaningless. Qi is the medium and messenger of meaningful change. Changing the size of one's biceps or accommodating the latest fads implanted in one's head by pop culture is seldom meaningful enough for qi to get involved in any useful way... It will resist -- and if one overcomes this resistance with li, it will dwindle. But, by the same token, if it is guided by yi toward a goal qi itself finds meaningful -- then of course it's a different story. As the classics put it, "use the mind of tao, not the human mind" -- and you'll be fine no matter what you do. Qi uses the mind of tao...

Edited October 16, 2007 by Taomeow

[Mal]

Thanks Taomeow & nightwatchdog. I have a much better understainding or why my Sifu talks about this the way he does.

 

What style of Tong Long Chuan do you practice, Mal?

 

It's the southern style, Chow Gar (short pause to actually check the name!)

Dong Gong Chow Gar Tong Long Shaolin Wushu

Sifu Ben Sue, in Townsville in my teacher and my SiGung Henry Sue is in Brisbane.

 

There are other Tong Long schools here (well not in Townsville) Various historical frictions exist between these Australian schools, but I have never had any problems with anyone personally,

not into who do what when etc

 

Do you do Tong Long as well?

[nightwatchdog]

I practiced Chi Hsing Tang Lang Chuan (Seven Star Praying Mantis), a Northern style, for a brief period. I was already heavily into the internal martial arts at that time though, and I found many of the postures to be at odds with internal methods of generating power. Southern Tong Long is a different animal altogether though. It's sometimes called the "Internal Mantis Style" among Chinese martial artists, and it does not resemble Northern mantis even preferally.

[Japhy Ryder]

nightwatchdog and taomeow, props to you for expressing the difference between purpose-ful and purpose-less movement so clearly. I lifted thousands of tons of weights and ran thousands of miles before I began to feel and understand the difference. I quit running about nine years ago and quit lifting four years ago when I realized I was experiencing an energy and health deficit; I was writing checks my body couldn't cash, and I didn't know why I was still writing them! I literally didn't trust my body's ability to express health and wellness on its own--I thought I had to fight to develop these qualities. Now I practice AYP, which I supplement with qigong and self-resistance exercises. Much better.

[Yoda]

Excellent articulations NWD and TM!! I would add that joy is the key to success to pretty much any activity I can think of.

[Spectrum]

Japhy nice to see you around again. Nice details everyone.

 

You can "overdo" any exercise, anything. Train smarter not harder.

 

I perfer to "wog". A walking jog. I combine different elements of chi gung breathing into the practice. I prefer to do this in the mornings as a "warmup" and combine high knees, kicks, and stretches, all combined with breath.

 

Anything that breaks through the metebolic barrier and opens the pores or heats the body, changes a rythm (taichi, dancing?), or brings your awareness toyour breath (any activities in which you meditate?) is good. Our heart changes rythm all the time, that doesn't mean it's specifically "cardio" what we do to change it. Heheh.

 

But when we change it on purpose, for instance to slow it down mindfully with breath, is this "cardio"? I think so... it takes just as much time and effort as the morning wog, with equal benifits if you consider the "effects" of cardio as bringing down your resting heart rate, not the increase of the heartrate while wogging, that's just a warmup...

 

A flexible balance of activity and rest seems a good path to follow. I notice that sustained wuji and taiji practice (everday) makes cardio seem like way less "work" when it's warmedup to slowly (similar to the body opening in the first parts of taiji practice)... then it's more effective movement w/ less effort.

 

I like what yoda said about jogging and walking being a good ground. This is called turning the water wheels.

 

Spectrum

[seadog]

I really enjoyed reading the various threads on this topic.I'am fortunate to live a very active life in a body that is largely free of defects ( a miracle considering the abuse of younger years).For many years I practiced tai chi yang stlye long form. This form usually took anywhere from twenty to thirty minutes to complete,regardless

always end in a rich lather of sweat and a elevated heart rate.Always amazed me how doing such gentle slow movements could have such a profound effect on the body.The concept of checks and balances is insightful.I have found that doing twenty minutes of Qi gung has a comparable effect in terms of releasing endorphins as two hours of surfing or an hour of squash with out the general wear and tear.Also the consistent practice of Qi gung helps to level out the peaks and troughs of the diurnal energy cycle when I'am engaged in hard physical activety.

[joeblast]

I need to stay thin. If I have a gut or if I gain too much weight in my upper body, my back reacts very badly to it. Back around 2004ish I had a good workout regimen that had a little too much weight training in it...packed on too much muscle and I was about 173lbs and then my back really started bothering me...I had to change how I was working out. Prior to that ~3yr regimen I gained a little too much in my stomach and my back also bothered me. I keep a good 152-156lbs these days and it works for me

I think wai dan exercise is a good way to get things moving. I read a quote somewhere...train gong and no fist, there is no foundation (or something)...train fist and no gong, then empty...

Edited October 19, 2007 by joeblast

[Japhy Ryder]

Japhy nice to see you around again. Nice details everyone.

 

You can "overdo" any exercise, anything. Train smarter not harder.

 

I perfer to "wog". A walking jog. I combine different elements of chi gung breathing into the practice. I prefer to do this in the mornings as a "warmup" and combine high knees, kicks, and stretches, all combined with breath.

 

Anything that breaks through the metebolic barrier and opens the pores or heats the body, changes a rythm (taichi, dancing?), or brings your awareness toyour breath (any activities in which you meditate?) is good. Our heart changes rythm all the time, that doesn't mean it's specifically "cardio" what we do to change it. Heheh.

 

But when we change it on purpose, for instance to slow it down mindfully with breath, is this "cardio"? I think so... it takes just as much time and effort as the morning wog, with equal benifits if you consider the "effects" of cardio as bringing down your resting heart rate, not the increase of the heartrate while wogging, that's just a warmup...

 

A flexible balance of activity and rest seems a good path to follow. I notice that sustained wuji and taiji practice (everday) makes cardio seem like way less "work" when it's warmedup to slowly (similar to the body opening in the first parts of taiji practice)... then it's more effective movement w/ less effort.

 

I like what yoda said about jogging and walking being a good ground. This is called turning the water wheels.

 

Spectrum

 

 

Thanks, Spectrum. It's good to be back. I completely agree with you that one's intention (and any quantification of sets, repetitions, duration, etc.) distinguishes exercise from movement.