I lost love, then found it!

[Nikolai1]

Hi everyone,

 

Love, it is true, is always felt as a matter of the heart, but at the same time, we always understand as well why we love a person.  Even if it something very, very basic like 'my male body loves her female body', our mind is fundamentally in on the act.  Our love has its reasons. We are always aware of what we are getting from a person, and that is why we love them.

 

Well, my mind came to the painful conclusion that I am completely whole as I am.  Nobody can offer me anything that I don't already have.  I am no longer pursuing the kinds of aims that other people can help me with.  My life's purpose is my spiritual realisation, and I now see very clearly and obviously that I have come as far as I can by the aid of others.  The rest is up to me, or God.

 

What more do I want from mere people, with their vulgar opinions, their trivial aims and childish behaviours?

 

This dark view is what I held, and I now realise that it was the cause of the loneliness of my Dark Night.  People did not abandon me; rather I abandoned them.  The rational purpose for my love withdrew, and I was left cynical, without a need for anyone.

 

I think many go through the same process. And yet we truly suffer for the lack of love that we feel.  Our inability to love is the cause of our loneliness and our suffering.

 

To step out of the Dark Night requires taking a step that is so breathtakingly radical that we can hardly believe it is expected of us.  It is something so big, and we have no choice but to take it.

 

We must love people anyway!

 

Even though it still remains that we no longer need anything from them, we shall suffer unless we learn that we have everything to give them.  Not giving love will leave us without love.  And even if we are hated in return, the love we give will be taken and received by ourselves.  Love is pure paradox: selfish love and selfless love are the same.

 

The moment we start to get selective about who we love is the exact same moment we start to suffer.  To be selective is to imagine that you need something from a person.  To imagine you need something is to realise you don't need anything. To realise you don't need anything is pure loneliness and alienation.

 

Our true need is to give love, moment by moment by moment.

 

How do we do this?

 

I've realised that in the centre of my chest there is a constant warm feeling that never goes away.  I have no idea if I have literally kindled this warm glow through practise, or whether everyone can feel if it is pointed out.  But when we concentrate our attention on this nice feeling, it so dominates our being that we cannot help but radiate the same warmth outwards.  So we are not intentionally setting out to love people (that would be a bit creepy), but rather intentionally setting out to feel the love in ourselves and then allowing it to passively spread outwards.

 

When we focus on this feeling in the chest, it completely obscures thoughts.  it is like we, as individuals, have stopped being a thought-based entity (in time and space) and have become a love based entity.  In otherwise love itself becomes our identity rather than our ego.  Only when we are egos does separation exist, as separation is the product of thought which is the key feature of the ego.  

 

When we love there is no thought and so no separation. It becomes impossible to determine which way the love is flowing.  All you know is that, here, in this moment, there is love.

 

Love is its own reward!  Even though in every given moment there is an object of your love, it is impossible to give any particular reason for loving this object.  Or, you could say that, it is lovable because it is present reality itself, and that is reason enough.

 

Thanks for reading! It would be great if any of you could elaborate on some of this stuff.  It's all quite a new direction for me in recent weeks and very exciting!

 

Nikolai

 

 

[Silent Answers]

On this end of the kaleider scope, with such complex differences, it's hard to fathom that we all use the same light to exist.

 

To love your neighbour is to love yourself. Looking down on others has similar negative effects.

 

It can be difficult at first, when these "others" keep getting in the way. Sometimes you have to wax, sometimes you have to wane. But that's a lot easier to accept, when every one is an aspect of you. We can be a lot more forgiving of that which we love.

[Marblehead]

And then it is said that if we can go beyond the concepts of love and hate externals will effect us far less.

[Nikolai1]

And then it is said that if we can go beyond the concepts of love and hate externals will effect us far less.

I think going beyond the concepts of love and hate for specifics is what leads at first to the Dark Night.  If you genuinely manage this then, yes, externals do affect us less...a lot less.  In fact we find ourselves not caring for them at all because we feel above them.  We watch them happening below us on the ground.

 

But, how can I put it...life lived like this gets so dry - it can't be sustained.  You yearn for the old enthusiasms but at the same time you know that you will never return to them. You have incurably gone beyond the concepts love and hate.

 

The solution is the Love that is no concept - the Love that does not have 'hate' as an opposite.  It is the Love that makes no sense, but only fills your days with a perfectly aimless enthusiasm.  Whatever happens is fine by you - this is transcending love and hate with the bonus discovery of the transcendental Love.  

 

This is the true goal, but it is so shockingly radical.  It is a total departure from normal human existence. It can't even be talked about.

 

But yes, we must transcend love and hate at the level of the Mind first AND tolerate all the shit that doing that will bring in our day to day lives.

[Marblehead]

Nice response.  I will remain silent now as this is something we each need experience on our own.  Once experienced, we will know if we went too far with it.

[Nikolai1]

Nice response.  I will remain silent now as this is something we each need experience on our own.  Once experienced, we will know if we went too far with it.

Please tell me more! Although I don't worry that you can go too far with this kind of love. It's very warm but very subtle and incredibly wholesome feeling. I think love can only go too far when the mind is involved and the love gets projected onto one specific object - this is pure madness compared to transcendental love.

 

Or, people get it into their heads that they should go around lovebombing everyone and everything and generally make themselves an insufferable nuisance.

[Marblehead]

Please tell me more!

Tell you more about what I know nothing about?  Yeah, I think I might be able to do that.  Install your bullshit filter before reading any further though.

 

Although I don't worry that you can go too far with this kind of love. It's very warm but very subtle and incredibly wholesome feeling. I think love can only go too far when the mind is involved and the love gets projected onto one specific object - this is pure madness compared to transcendental love.

"this kind of love"  I assume you are referring to "objective unconditional love" as opposed to subjective, every day kind love we speak of when we want to please our woman.  Or like "I love this car!"

 

In my opinion, love is a dreadfully misused word.  I rarely use it.  Awareness, acknowledgement.  Better words, I think.

 

To be aware of all other existences in the universe and acknowledge their right to exist.  We don't have to love them all.  We don't have to love Hitler or what he caused to happen.  But we are aware that he existed and we acknowledge what he caused to happen without putting any value judgement on those actions.  (No, I can't do that.  I detest what he caused to happen.)

 

The good, the bad, the ugly, and the beautiful, they all exist.  We prefer good over bad; beautiful over ugly.  But the ugly and the bad exist.  They are a part of the totality of what is Tao.

 

We really don't want to be loving someone who is out to totally ruin our life.  We need to avoid such people.  Just as we need avoid the hungry tiger. 

 

And yes, too much love can be repressive and depressing, controlling, a general pain in the ass.

 

I have said before, and have been criticized for saying it, we give to those who are deserving of what we have to give.  This applies to everything from our money to our unconditional love.  I still stand by that.

 

 

Oops.  I forgot this last one.

Or, people get it into their heads that they should go around lovebombing everyone and everything and generally make themselves an insufferable nuisance.

Yes.  Moderation is always better.  The middle path.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Marblehead

[Cheshire Cat]

How do we do this?

 

I've realised that in the centre of my chest there is a constant warm feeling that never goes away.  I have no idea if I have literally kindled this warm glow through practise, or whether everyone can feel if it is pointed out.  But when we concentrate our attention on this nice feeling, it so dominates our being that we cannot help but radiate the same warmth outwards.  [...]

Love is its own reward!  Even though in every given moment there is an object of your love, it is impossible to give any particular reason for loving this object.  Or, you could say that, it is lovable because it is present reality itself, and that is reason enough.

 

 

Totally agree.

 

This leads me to the conclusion that this thing (love) highly esteemed by us humans as something Divine...it 's just the workings of some Qi-channels in the chest area. 

 

No matter how good you feel, it's just samsara, the relative bodhicitta: it's mostly an instrument and not an aim in itself, once you know what it is.

 

To go beyond and seek enlightenment and be independent from qi-channels to feel at peace would be something amazingly beautiful 

[Nikolai1]

Hi Marblehead,

 

We really don't want to be loving someone who is out to totally ruin our life.  We need to avoid such people. 

It's easy to avoid them and love them at the same time.  This is my point. Loving a person is an inner experience or attitude.  it doesn't necessarily need any outer behaviour to go with it.  This loving attitude is absolutely its own reward. 

 

You are right that love gets misused, but only because we confuse ourselves over what love involves.  If you love only on certain conditions of some kind of payback, then that is a lesser kind of love.  Or, more accurately, it is a perfect love that gets shared between yourself and the other.

 

When self love is an absolute given, you don't need anything back and you are free to love unconditionally.  In the OP I talked about the loneliness of realising that nobody was able to give me anything.  It is a miserable state, but fundamentally based on the self-realisation that has come from practice - and self-realisation is intrinsically pleasurable.  It is total self-infatuation.

 

I have said before, and have been criticized for saying it, we give to those who are deserving of what we have to give.  This applies to everything from our money to our unconditional love.  I still stand by that.

If they need to deserve our love in some way, then it is obviously not unconditional love we are giving.  You must see that.  Therefore you are effectively denying the possibility of unconditional love.

 

This is yet another example of you refusing the transcendental perspective, isn't it?  You do it philosophically with your 'materialism' and now you're doing it affectively with your 'love must be deserved'.

 

What on earth is the point of your interest in Taoism if you refuse to transcend.  It is the soteriology that gives it all the value! Without this Taoism is just another description of the to's and fro's of life.  Do you not yearn to go higher than adjustment to the way things already are?

 

Or maybe you just like being controversial and you don't mean it?  Come on, admit it!

[Nikolai1]

Hi Cheshire Cat

 

This leads me to the conclusion that this thing (love) highly esteemed by us humans as something Divine...it 's just the workings of some Qi-channels in the chest area.

 

I would say that love and Chi are the same thing.  Both concepts that musn't be taken too seriously.  But we have to say something...

 

No matter how good you feel, it's just samsara, the relative bodhicitta: it's mostly an instrument and not an aim in itself, once you know what it is.

If there's one thing I've realised is that when it comes to the spiritual paths, one person's means are another person's ends.  Or, in your terms, what looks like the aim is also, from another perspective, the instrument to reaching the aim.

 

Dogen sums this up as practice and enlightenment are one.  What we consciously do, happens automatically to our neighbour as a bonus side effect.

 

To go beyond and seek enlightenment and be independent from qi-channels to feel at peace would be something amazingly beautiful  

Yes, and there are lots of people on this website who need to understand this.  All this talk about Chi and channels and meridians is taken much too seriously...but at the same time we have to start by taking it very seriously.

[dwai]

Someone famous had said this --

 

“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing,
Love is knowing I am everything,
and between the two my life moves.”

 

And also,

 

“The consciousness in you and the consciousness in me, apparently two, really one, seek unity and that is love.”

 

Nisargadatta Maharaj

[Marblehead]

Or maybe you just like being controversial and you don't mean it?  Come on, admit it!

Hehehe.  I'll give you credit for trying.  But those are my present understandings.

 

If they need to deserve our love in some way, then it is obviously not unconditional love we are giving.  You must see that.  Therefore you are effectively denying the possibility of unconditional love.

You are right.  I do not possess unconditional love nor have I ever felt the emotion.  Everything is a matter of perspective.

 

This is yet another example of you refusing the transcendental perspective, isn't it?  You do it philosophically with your 'materialism' and now you're doing it affectively with your 'love must be deserved'.

Transcend?  I'm not going anywhere.  There is no place for me to go.  I am always exactly where I am supposed to be.

 

Naughty, naughty materialistic me!!!! 

 

What on earth is the point of your interest in Taoism if you refuse to transcend.  It is the soteriology that gives it all the value! Without this Taoism is just another description of the to's and fro's of life.  Do you not yearn to go higher than adjustment to the way things already are?

Where did you see in the TTC or the Chuang Tzu that it said that I had to possess unconditional love?  That's Buddhist and new-age concept.

 

Like I said, I have no where to go.  I am at peace with who and what I am.  I will never pretend to love someone who has intentionally committed a horrible crime.  Therefore my love is conditional.

 

 

 

A story from my "today".

 

I was out shopping and on the way home I stopped to top off the fuel tank of my truck.  I went inside to pre-pay and on the way out a man riding a bicycle stopped at the cigarette butt can at the door and picked out a discarded butt.  I motioned to him to come toward me and he complied.  I reached into my glove box and grabbed two packs of smokes and gave them to him.  It had been a while since I saw such a beautiful smile as the one he had on his face.

 

Did I love him?  No.  That was the first time I ever saw him.  Did I feel he deserved better than living off other people's throw-aways?  Yes.  So I simply did what I felt I should do.  Beyond love and hate; beyond good and evil.

[Nikolai1]

Hi Marblehead,

 

Did I love him?  No.  That was the first time I ever saw him.  Did I feel he deserved better than living off other people's throw-aways?  Yes.  So I simply did what I felt I should do.

Unconditional love at its lowest levels begins with thoughts of compassion.  Compassionate thoughts are the proof that we have transcended our own strict selfhood.  Those entirely bound by the self don't have compassionate thoughts. You did.

 

At middle levels of unconditional love the thoughts are united by the will which results in behaviour.  So our thoughts have entered his skin, and so have our behaviours.  The cigarettes are withdrawn from ourselves and given to this other self who smokes them on our behalf.  This is unconditional love actualised.

 

At the highest levels the heart gets involved and separation has entirely broken down.  What started as solicitude for another is now total oneness.  When twoness disappears, then the amazing feeling that we all call love breaks through and we start calling it unconditional love proper as a felt reality.

 

What you did at the gas pump was unconditional love, but you don't recognise it because the deep felt component was missing or at most very subtle.

 

Why did you not reach the heights of unconditional love? Because you don't believe in it.  You don't believe in it because you are not inspired to further cultivate it at any of the three levels.  You're stuck. On a discussion forum the aspect that most often comes across is intellectual deficit.  Your potential for compassionate thinking is compromised by your stubborn attachment to bad philosophy.  This is my opinion of you.  Were I to meet you in real life, I would see better whether the intellectual aspect is your weak link in an otherwise rich and loving existence, or whether your intellect is weakened by a cold immunity to the beauty of the world and isolation from other people. 

 

Anyway, I don't want to criticise you because you seem one hell of lot wiser and nicer than anyone I meet in real life.  Do you come across better than you are? Do you find it harder to be patient and amiable in real life than on the internet?

Edited May 19, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Marblehead]

 

Anyway, I don't want to criticise you

Well, you had one hellova  good start going though.

 

 Do you come across better than you are?

I am what I am.  No smoke and mirrors here.  I will praise a good comment but call bullshit on a bad one.

 

Do you find it harder to be patient and amiable in real life than on the internet?

Patient I can do.  I don't know if I do or even can do amiable.  That's for others to say.