Requirement for Celibacy in Neigong Training

[opendao]

Your answer was some teachers require no celibacy.

 

Care to give some names?

 

Any "photos" of them?

 

haha. Hilarious!

 

Or more appeal to secret authority?

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zhang_Boduan.jpg

 

It's the definitive answer to all Innersound's rhetoric questions and shallow quotes.

Thanks for quoting Damo:

 

Yuan Qi sits around the yuan points around wrists and ankles - so it's good to flex and move the wrists and ankles.

 

Not even funny. Some modern mix from TCM and qigong books...

Edited May 17, 2015 by opendao

[Taoist Texts]

Your answer was some teachers require no celibacy.

 

Some teachers require; some teachers do not. Obviously they both can not be right. So which ones are the false teachers? Which ones are the true ones?

[opendao]

Some teachers require; some teachers do not. Obviously they both can not be right. So which ones are the false teachers? Which ones are the true ones?

 

some neidan schools use celibacy at some stages, other schools don't use at all at any stage. Both are right because they get same results (if they don't get, then they are not neidan schools by the definition). 

 

But they understand what and why they are doing, while Innersound just guessing without understanding the theory. That's the difference.

Edited May 17, 2015 by opendao

[Taoist Texts]

Some teachers require; some teachers do not. Obviously they both can not be right. So which ones are the false teachers? Which ones are the true ones?

 

and to continue this line of thought...

 

if the celibacy is unnecessary then those who require it obviously do not know what they are doing. Basically to state that celibacy is not needed in some schools, is to accuse those who say 'it is a must' of being false.

 

On the other hand Zhang Boduan went on record saying 'ejaculate as much as you want' in so many words. Or may be he did not.

[damdao]

and to continue this line of thought...

if the celibacy is unnecessary then those who require it obviously do not know what they are doing. Basically to state that celibacy is not needed in some schools, is to accuse those who say 'it is a must' of being false.

 

This is a kind of sophistry, Opendao explicitly said that in Yuxianpai celibacy is required at some stages, so it is difficult that he himself was implying (or directly accusing) that his own school do not know what is doing.

And of course it is not the same to say that "it is required" (or something natural at some stage) than blindly state "it is a must". 

[Taoist Texts]

This is a kind of sophistry, Opendao explicitly said that in Yuxianpai celibacy is required at some stages, so it is difficult that he himself was implying (or directly accusing) that his own school do not know what is doing.

And of course it is not the same to say that "it is required" (or something natural at some stage) than blindly state "it is a must". 

 

Dear Damdao

 

your opinion is important to us. Unfortunately, it is quite unclear what you are trying to say.

 

Is celibacy required to succeed in alchemy or not? Please pick one.

Yes, it is required.

No, it is not required.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Taoist Texts

[thelerner]

Dear Damdao

 

your opinion is important to us. Unfortunately, it is quite unclear what you are trying to say.

 

Is celibacy required to succeed in alchemy or not? Please pick one.

Yes, it is required.

No, it is not required.

This is a controversial enough question that it deserves its own thread <and its getting far from the OP>

If the parties involved and most knowledgeable want to create it.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"If you are expecting your ability to sense things in reality to be heightened, then there is most certainly benefit to be had from removing an activity that tends to be dis-equilibrating for the whole biological and energetic system."

-----

 

Is this saying that sex interaction is "dis-equilibrating"?

 

Isn't male/female a polarity?

 

How would this polarity be unfied without interaction of male and female?

 

Why and how does this polarity of male and female come to exist in first place?

 

Seeing Tai Chi symbol - is showing this polarity arising, and also the unfication of polarity.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Slim]

My sense is it's best not to over think the question of celibacy too much. 

 

I found celibacy to be very helpful for my practice of internal alchemy. But that's me at this time. 

 

Give it a try. See how it affects one's practice. Pay attention to one's body. Internal alchemy has clear benchmarks: are we able to achieve the same results before and after ejaculation?

 

I found for myself that the path to celibacy was a natural one. As I began working on certain stages of the alchemical process I just didn't want to ejaculate. 

 

Also, as a family man I know for me celibacy is not permeant. And I don't think it need be. It's just what works right now. 

[Bearded Dragon]

If you're going to argue a point then at least state the desired effect. This thread has no context.

[flowconduit]

I don't understand how anyone could put on real power without celibacy since every time I have nocturnal emissions I feel my bioenergy deplete..

[thelerner]

One point I've seen repeated by respected writers is forced celibacy can do more harm then good.  To treat it as an advanced practice and do it seriously only after you've gotten your mind in order, established a firm practice foundation and beginning to transform jing into chi. 

 

 

Personally, at my level and being on the householder path, its not worth the sacrifice.  I think there's a bit of placebo effect going on with some guys on how debilitating ejaculation is.  Though as one progresses higher there is power there.  Things may change later on, but for now, sexuality adds to my life. 

[Taoist Texts]

I don't understand how anyone could put on real power without celibacy since every time I have nocturnal emissions I feel my bioenergy deplete..

 

those who advocate sex AND neidan are not concerned with reality. they are concerned with selling seminars.

[exorcist_1699]

If you want to achieve something great , then  celibacy is definitely needed ; it is  100% sure, no unrealistic expectation here.

 

To those married but resolute  guys ,the best strategy  that they can adopt is :

 

Squeeze your sex life and make it as few as possible  , and  then up until 55, for example,  after your having fulfilled your earthly responsibility and  want to start that  new great  journey, you still find yourself  having enough  jing and qi  retained for it .

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"If you're going to argue a point then at least state the desired effect. This thread has no context."

-----

 

There have indeed been many threads here (TDB forum) on this subject, and in most of text that has been generated, people have stated various effects they are trying to achieve, and the various concepts that they "believe in".

 

I always assume that what people are "going towards" is their Destiny, which is related to their Source.

 

Since their Source is Infinite Oneness, or "God, then how could this also not be their true Destiny?

 

"God", or Infinite Oneness, is in fact "celibate".

 

And the entire Manifested Universe is arising from "sex", from differentiation and contraction (YinYang).

 

Sex is coming from no-sex, and no-sex is coming from sex.

 

This is just natural order (Tao).

 

But I see that most of the text here (TDB forum) on this subject (but not all) is not really about this, but is about achieving what has been presented by various sources as important parts of qigong, neigong, and shengong practices.

 

I myself have some experience with this subject, and much earlier in my training I explored this and did fairly long periods of internal training in 100% celibacy. Time periods like 3 years, 5 years, etc, combine with special meditation and cultivation practices.

 

I have also trained the other way from celibacy, and have done extensive training in partnership with female cultivators, most of which I probably should not describe. But one thing of note is that I, after 2 decades of internal training practice, tried to find the most opposite, most un-recommended (conventionally) results related to celibacy. For over 10 years.

 

What I discovered in that decade, especially coming after so long of training before, was truly incredible - but I see is not part of conventional discussion here or anywhere else.

 

I have also approached many of the issues commonly associated with the concept of celibacy in cultivation through other means, and this from realizations I have had regarding my previous experiences. Studying these other means, I see that I have encountered aspects that I see also have been missing from common discussion almost entirely.

 

From this experience, I see that the debate about these things is mostly just "canned" or "automated", and not really always the result of true exploration. It look more like arguments about assumptions.

 

I say Keep Testing. The Universe, and the Truth, is far bigger than any of these assumptions.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[opendao]

those who advocate sex AND neidan are not concerned with reality. they are concerned with selling seminars.

 

those who know so little about Neidan, what are their concerns when they post questions in the form of definite answers?

 

The fact is that there are NO any high level practitioner nowadays who insists on celibacy.

 

Second fact is that people who insist on celibacy, have no any results, and don't really understand even the basic processes in the body happen during the retention. That's why we see just a binary logic: celibacy or sex. But in reality they both have places.

 

Daoists in temples know how to get benefits from the celibacy, those in Southern School, they know how to practice without necessity of such retention. Even more, there are schools of pair cultivation, where sex is used as the main method.

Edited May 18, 2015 by opendao

[SaiyaMan]

Your answer was some teachers require no celibacy.

 

Care to give some names?

 

SonOfTheGods, a very VERY advanced practitioner, says that one should refrain from masturbation, but one shouldn't restrict themselves of sex entirely. Having sex every couple weeks is good, especially if both you and your partner cultivate!

 

For more info on LoneMan Pai's view of sex and masturbation, you can make an account and view these two threads:

 

LoneMan Pai™- Sex Life

 

Masturbation Brings Monsters

 

Any "photos" of them?

 

Photos and videos(doesn't require an account):

 

Chi Force Field = Photograph & Video Proof

 

Enjoy

Edited May 18, 2015 by SaiyaMan

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

A particularly traumatic and embarrassing failure for a Quanzhen monk was seminal emission, voluntary or involuntary.

...

 

Master-Father Changchun (Qiu Chuji) said, “,,,, my mind was

beyond control and could not be subdued. I myself realized that my

merit was lacking. Again I increased in my determination. .....”

One day, [Qiu Chuji] fell [asleep (?)] and gave rise to thoughts.

The Master-Father wept and wailed. It was from this time that [he

knew that] his merit was shallow. Later, when a military general in

Chang’an summoned him to perform a zhai ritual,39 he leaked

[semen] three times during the night. The Master-Father himself

realized that his merit was lacking and that he had been unable to

accomplish the Tao. 

Qiu Chuji (traditional Chinese: 丘處機; simplified Chinese: 丘处机; pinyin: Qiū Chǔjī; 1148 – 23 July 1227), also known by his Taoist nameChangchun zi (Chinese: 長春子; pinyin: Chángchūnzi), was a Daoist disciple of Wang Chongyang. He was the most famous^[1] among the Seven True Daoists of the North.^[2] He was the founder of the Dragon Gate sect of Taoism  

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiu_Chuji

 

 

 

Grand Master Yuyang (Wang Chuyi), from the time he was still

living at home, did not know any erotic affairs. After leaving his

home he never leaked [semen]. But later, one evening on Mt. Tiecha

he suddenly had a leakage. He wailed and wept in extreme despair

(Eskildsen)

 

Wang Chuyi's alternate name was Yu Yangzi (it is also said he was named Yu Yang, with his assumed name as Quan Yangzi or Hua Yangzi). He was from Ninghai (present-day Muping, Shangdong Province). In the 7th year of Dading in the Jin Dynasty (1168 AD), he acknowledged Wang Chongyang as his master, lived in seclusion for a long time in the Yanxia Cave of Mt. Kunyu, and refined his bodily life for nine years. At the time he was called 'Iron Foot Gentleman'. In the 28th year of Dading (1188 AD), he accepted the call of the first Emperor Shizong of the Jin Dynasty, and went to the royal palace to host the ritual offerings of the Wanchun Festival ( 萬春節 Wanchun Jie ). In his life, Wang founded the Yushan Sect of the Complete Perfection Tradition ( 全真道 Quanzhen Dao ), and after his death the emperor conferred him the title 'Jade Sun Perfect Man Who Realizes Mystery and Universal Salvation ( 玉陽體玄廣度真人 Yuyang Tixuan Guangdu Zhenren ). 18. He was one of the Seven Perfect Ones of the North ( 北七真 Beiqizhen ), and served as the Head Daoist on imperial order.

 

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Wang_Chuyi

[exorcist_1699]

Living a life of celibacy is far from  ,  or has nothing to  do with , making  you into  an immortal of any kind ;  it is even far from giving you a healthy  life if you can't  ' sublimate'  that   accumulated  jing into qi ,  or directly into shen ; in fact , celibacy can be worse than a life with  marriage.

 

People always mix up many things :

 

For example , a life of celibacy doesn't necessarily means a  life  without  jing leakage ; Nocturnal leakage has to be taken into account. Even if it happens once a month, it is no different from having jing leaked in sex intercourse. Having any jing leakage , even once in many months , means your effort towards physical immortality is doomed. 

 

Second,  jing leakage is in fact expressed in varied forms that sometimes you miss to calculate them ; Note that the energy that makes us continue to live is in fact an integration of three levels of things: jing, qi and shen , with jing at the base to build up the whole . Although leakage of jing is , to men, most clearly felt   ( not sure what feeling it is for women )   and  time-consuming to recover , leakage at other level  can be closely harmful : 

 

At qi level :  For example, you move heavy objects  for a whole day , and feel tired  ( Roughly  speaking, it is leakage from the middle part of our body)

 

At shen level : For example, doing lengthy mathematical calculations or playing online games for hours ( Leakage at the upper part of our body)

 

So, whatever  leakage we get   from these levels : jing, qi or shen,  deterioration of jing ( qi and shen are just different forms of its expressions) definitely will lead  us  to death . 

 

Other status such as too much worrying , serious fear or   jealous  of other people's  fame or fortune..etc can be harmful.

 

This  is why physical immortality is so difficult to achieve, and tuning our mind is more fundamental than tuning our life or circumstances.

Edited May 22, 2015 by exorcist_1699

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"This  is why physical immortality is so difficult to achieve, and tuning our mind is more fundamental than tuning our life or circumstances."

-----

 

"Physical immortality" is an oxymoron, because whatever physically exists will subsequently cease to exist.

 

Without our life and our life circumstances, what is there of us to be asking about immortality?

 

Immortality is a change of state, not the perpetuation and continuation of an existing one.

 

Whatever began will end.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[voidisyinyang]

that's a good point - immortality would then be an eternal change of state - the golden diamond immortal energy body is created after the physical body is pulverized. The immortal diamond body can then turn into pure energy and also transform into multiple physical forms - and do this eternally. But to achieve that level also means a complete purification of the previous physical body so that the new immortal body looks exactly like the perfect previous physical body (perfect as when jing energy was prime at age 16 or so). Nevertheless - this process has to be completely impersonal as any of the yin qi impurities as emotional energy - lower emotional energy - have be emptied out into yuan qi energy. So it is a paradox that the immortal body has to also "embody" the completely impersonal eternal transformation of energy creation as the Emptiness. Would such a body reincarnate? It has finally escaped reincarnation by removing all desires so it shouldn't have any desire to reincarnate - and so the immortal body would say in the pure energy state of formless awareness that is the foundation of eternal manifestation of form. A kind of coherent quantum infinite potential that contains the whole universe.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"A kind of coherent quantum infinite potential that contains the whole universe."

-----

 

Yes, we return to One, or "God".

 

This is normal human life.

 

-----

"But to achieve that level also means a complete purification of the previous physical body so that the new immortal body looks exactly like the perfect previous physical body (perfect as when jing energy was prime at age 16 or so)."

-----

 

This is where people need to be careful in their assumptions.

 

But even this - this is essentially the normal expression of human life.

 

And now, with what is called "normal" human life in the modern era - this is where special practices and trainings have arisen to compensate for this new domesticated "normal", and there is obviously so much confusion about what needs to be done and why, etc.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Taoist Texts]

Living a life of celibacy is far from  ,  or has nothing to  do with , making  you into  an immortal of any kind ;  it is even far from giving you a healthy  life if you can't  ' sublimate'  that   accumulated  jing into qi ,  or directly into shen ; in fact , celibacy can be worse than a life with  marriage.

 

People always mix up many things :

 

That is true. But in this particular case they mix up 2 things. Namely, the necessary condition and the sufficient condition.

 

Both celibacy and retention are necessary for alchemy to succeed. It is proven by the stories i posted above, and by the fact that a serious cultivator is traditionally even called '出家‘ (he who left the family).

 

These two are not sufficient but necessary. The seminar sellers employ a disingenuous subterfuge claiming that if these conditions are not sufficient therefore they are not necessary either. It is an obvious logical fallacy.

 

However, the seminar buyers tend to believe it. Why? Because they are not serious cultivators, they are role-players, who like to eat their pudding and to have it too. Good luck with that,

[opendao]

That is true. But in this particular case they mix up 2 things. Namely, the necessary condition and the sufficient condition.

 

Both celibacy and retention are necessary for alchemy to succeed. It is proven by the stories i posted above, and by the fact that a serious cultivator is traditionally even called '出家‘ (he who left the family).

 

These two are not sufficient but necessary. The seminar sellers employ a disingenuous subterfuge claiming that if these conditions are not sufficient therefore they are not necessary either. It is an obvious logical fallacy.

 

However, the seminar buyers tend to believe it. Why? Because they are not serious cultivators, they are role-players, who like to eat their pudding and to have it too. Good luck with that,

 

Troll cave's open seminar for serious cultivators ))) Dude, in your post there are so many "logical fallacies", starting with your assumption, that the Qiu Chuji story have any relation to reality... So naive to believe in everything that confirms your point of view (taken out from nowhere). There is also a comic book in Chinese about Qiu Chuji's heroic acts: this is really a level of your knowledge.

 

So a forum anonymous somebody has something to say against the authority of Zhang Boduan and other patriarchs of Nanzong? I bet he has nothing, except a bunch of smart words. Dare to quote Wuzhenpian, where Zhang Boduan clearly states that leaving a family is not a proper way? Obviously, it's not on your bookshelf...

 

There is a very simple thing: if there are results, then the method is right. In Nanzong there are results, and their method has no celibacy. It's not a condition. The end. But trolls can continue to insists that they are "serious cultivators". What do you cultivate, TT? Corn? Pop-corn? Cannabis? ))) You're so boring. Eat your pudding, troll.

[opendao]

 

Good post, exorcist. I wanted to add my 2¢ below.

 

If one can, at the time of recognizing post-heaven qualities (listed below, on the left), transform them into pre-heavenly qualities (on the right), you can reduce "energy leakage". All it requires is a shift in intent.

 

Basically, 

Heavenly actions are actions that are kind and loving.

Earthly actions are actions that crave and desire.

 

pride = joy 

anger = kindness

fear = gentleness

worry = openness

sadness = courage

 

both columns are postheaven emotions, they don't reduce "energy leakage". Joy can be devastated the same way as pride.