Requirement for Celibacy in Neigong Training

[opendao]

Re:

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"This  is why physical immortality is so difficult to achieve, and tuning our mind is more fundamental than tuning our life or circumstances."

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"Physical immortality" is an oxymoron, because whatever physically exists will subsequently cease to exist.

 

Without our life and our life circumstances, what is there of us to be asking about immortality?

 

Immortality is a change of state, not the perpetuation and continuation of an existing one.

 

Whatever began will end.

 

Lao Zi has another opinion. As well as the entire tradition after him. "Physical immortality": it's impossible to understand what Dao is without understanding how it's possible to achieve such a state. The xian leave this world not because they have to, but because they want to...

[opendao]

Living a life of celibacy is far from  ,  or has nothing to  do with , making  you into  an immortal of any kind ;  it is even far from giving you a healthy  life if you can't  ' sublimate'  that   accumulated  jing into qi ,  or directly into shen ; in fact , celibacy can be worse than a life with  marriage.

 

Right, it can be worse. It's really about person and his/her fate, what school it was possible to find etc.

 

And it's impossible to sublimate jing into qi, nor directly into shen. It seems you think that the main issue is the excess of jing, and it needs to be sublimated into something, but it's very far from the real process in Neidan.... 

 

People always mix up many things :

 

For example , a life of celibacy doesn't necessarily means a  life  without  jing leakage ; Nocturnal leakage has to be taken into account. Even if it happens once a month, it is no different from having jing leaked in sex intercourse. Having any jing leakage , even once in many months , means your effort towards physical immortality is doomed. 

 

you're speaking just about postheaven jing leakage, but the real leakage is about yuan jing. So if you celibate and "sublimate", you're still in troubles. 

[Taoist Texts]

Troll cave's ...... So naive ....So a forum anonymous s...... But trolls ..... What do you cultivate, TT? Corn? Pop-corn? Cannabis? ))) You're so boring. Eat your pudding, troll.

normally ad hominem insults are the last resort of the losing party. with neidanists its different - its their first resort.

[voidisyinyang]

Yuan Jing is restored with the tongue against the roof of the mouth and the fusing of Yuan qi and Yuan Shen causing increased saliva that is swallowed down to the lower tan tien - that saliva is what increases the yuan jing. So as someone posted previously - it kicks in after about an hour of full lotus meditation. Or that depends - you have a qigong master giving healing energy then the saliva can kick in right away. haha.

 

You can tell the difference of increasing jing from shen meditation versus increasing jing from food.

[Songtsan]

In B.K. Frantzis' book, The Power of Internal Martial Arts, he talks about how one of his main teachers told him how he had sex like 3 hours a day, and this guy had all kinds of crazy abilities....forget that teachers name, but he could do tummo, fa jin, and other things....I dont see why if one knew the secret of 'unstuck energy,' that is, energy that does not stagnate or collect, that one couldnt enter into any fray, unattached, and still keep on moving, storing, cultivating. I think it would depend on the attitude one had towards the energy and its expression. A free flowing conduit should experience no overheating. Only when there is resistance/friction, will that happen. There are tales of Mahasiddhas with hundreds of wives.....see http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/buddhas-dharma/vajradhara-and-84-mahasiddhas.html and so on....don't limit yourselves!

 

Also, read about Hazrat Inayat Khan, who supposedly stopped eating food, and only smoked black cigarrettes and drank coffee.....I think that once one realizes the eternal unity of energy, and can spin it into any form, one can live off anything.....follow your desires, but don't cross the line, to quote DB, who may have been quoting someone else....What is crossing the line? Going past where you believe you should? I don't know....I have my opinions....operate within your belief systems - don't break your own rules...when you expand your own rules to allow more, keep on going....

 

...also, also....it seems that belief is the zenith of what we are capable of....work within that, and work to expand your belief....we are all God, and create our own matrix.....you are a puppet on your own strings...dont let others limits, limit you, Energy Beings

 

Energy can do anything....we Are That! We can do/be anything....doing IS being. We are, in the end our own judges, our own jury, our own executioner....it is our will and agreement with others' beliefs which hold us here. Once you stop believing, strange and wondrous things occur! The power of belief, or disbelief.....amazing schtuff God-folks!

Edited May 23, 2015 by Songtsan

[damdao]

Dear Damdao

 

your opinion is important to us. Unfortunately, it is quite unclear what you are trying to say.

 

Is celibacy required to succeed in alchemy or not? Please pick one.

Yes, it is required.

No, it is not required.

 

 

That is true. But in this particular case they mix up 2 things. Namely, the necessary condition and the sufficient condition.

 

Both celibacy and retention are necessary for alchemy to succeed. It is proven by the stories i posted above, and by the fact that a serious cultivator is traditionally even called '出家‘ (he who left the family).

 

These two are not sufficient but necessary. The seminar sellers employ a disingenuous subterfuge claiming that if these conditions are not sufficient therefore they are not necessary either. It is an obvious logical fallacy.

 

However, the seminar buyers tend to believe it. Why? Because they are not serious cultivators, they are role-players, who like to eat their pudding and to have it too. Good luck with that,

 

 

normally ad hominem insults are the last resort of the losing party. with neidanists its different - its their first resort.

 

I thought that sophistry was natural in you, but it comes that it is a conscious election.

First, you tried to put me in a dilemma when it was explicitly stated that the problem has many nuances and whichever horn I chose it is a simplification of the problem.

Second, following you the only requirement for not selling a seminar is the recommendation of celibacy.

Unfortunately, the opposite is true. In these "spiritual" circles the best was to sell, not only a seminar but a school, is speaking about celibacy, asceticism, and self-torture. If you offer a path in which the requirements are silence, abstinence, self-humiliation and self-blaming you will have most of the public, but if you say that no sel-mortification and celibacy is required but a normal, balanced and integrated life is needed, most people will say that it is a fraud. If there is no [obvious] pain there is no alchemy.  It reminds me the story written by Idries Shah (under the pen name of Rafael Lefort) in which a seeker after truth goes to a sufi for initiation and the sufi ask the seeker if he is ready to abandon the world and to live a life of raw food and roots, the seeker nodded, and the sufi disappointed told the seeker: do you believe that the cathedrals, the medical improvements, etc. were possible thanks to eating roots people? The morale is that a better acceptance is on the side of self-denial.

Third, you accuse opendao of ad-hominen arguments as first tool and you are quoting the last sentence of a post (the first post in a long list, btw). 

[blue eyed snake]

normally ad hominem insults are the last resort of the losing party. with neidanists its different - its their first resort.

 

belly laughs.

 

--------------------------

 

But indeed, i do not believe in physical immortality, not even theoretical. Imho it's missing the point ( completely) 

 

I do believe that the old Chinese arts, (whether called neidan or else. it's not about the name, it's about the knowledge...) makes a much longer and much healthier life possible, and i can very easily imagine that someone who lives such a life can choose to go on and leave this physical existence. I can even imagine that from someone who has not lived a long and healthy life.....

 

bes

[Songtsan]

I believe in physical immortality. Energy cannot die. Matter cannot die. You can separate it all you want, down to little tiny blips, and still you can never kill it....you just make smaller and smaller copies of the main things...like ameobas....I personally, intend to divide infinitely, and create endless existence, as this is what I have chosen...

[thelerner]

I don't believe in physical immortality.  Can't find role models.

[Taoist Texts]

I don't believe in physical immortality.  Can't find role models.

the interesting question is : IF you would find a role model for it, and  would believe in it, would that believing be a good thing?

[JinlianPai]

Well I dont think that taoist immortality is understood I havent seen an actual accurate description of it on here.

 

Let alone for retention.

 

Spiritual alchemy in neigong is attainment oriented.

 

Meaning that you train reach a new level of spiritual development and then you go back to your life and rest and recuperate.

 

But this requires having authentic training and a master that an explain this to you.

 

You dont do retention for the rest of your life. Thats unhealthy and not a good way to train.

 

Retention is only suppose to be done at certain times.

 

1. building the foundation.

 

2. igniting the ldt

 

3. Maintaining the ignited ldt

 

4. Training for your next level of development.

 

After step 3 you go back to living your life.

 

You can get married have kids and so forth.

 

Come back to the neigong when your ready for the next stage of development.

[Taoist Texts]

Well I dont think that taoist immortality is understood I havent seen an actual accurate description of it on here.

 

Jinlian who is your teacher? Thanx

[JinlianPai]

Jinlian who is your teacher? Thanx

 

Im sorry but he is no longer with us.

[exorcist_1699]

 

Good post, exorcist. I wanted to add my 2¢ below.

 

If one can, at the time of recognizing post-heaven qualities (listed below, on the left), transform them into pre-heavenly qualities (on the right), you can reduce "energy leakage". All it requires is a shift in intent.

 

Basically, 

Heavenly actions are actions that are kind and loving.

Earthly actions are actions that crave and desire.

 

pride = joy 

anger = kindness

fear = gentleness

worry = openness

sadness = courage

 

Esoteric name for this practice:

Taoist Five Element Cultivation

 

Practical term for this practice:

Positive Psychology Practice

 

Doesn't matter what one calls it. Just know that it works to refine jing and chi to higher levels.

 

 

Yeah,   people   know that they can  burn  jing  and  qi  to refine  the  Dan of immortality ('不死丹'),  yet seldom do they  know that they can  also add  anxiety, fear , jealousy ..etc as fuel into oven.

[Songtsan]

Following in the pathsteps of the masters is not the wisest course. Do not seek to follow in the footprints of the masters, seek what they sought instead...

Edited May 23, 2015 by Songtsan

[opendao]

normally ad hominem insults are the last resort of the losing party. with neidanists its different - its their first resort.

 

normally trolls don't complain after throwing shit to others. You're miserably trying to express all your negativism towards Neidan schools, but you never provide any argument. You lie and troll. So take your pudding back to your face, keep calm and don't cry.

 

Speaking about the topic, you provided one fantasy story and really think it's an Argument? I told you about Nanzong, but trolls are blind and deaf, all they want is to express their P-p-p-personality. Just to cry then, "ad hominem, I'm under attack"     

[JinlianPai]

Well I dont think that taoist immortality is understood I havent seen an actual accurate description of it on here.

 

Let alone for retention.

 

Spiritual alchemy in neigong is attainment oriented.

 

Meaning that you train reach a new level of spiritual development and then you go back to your life and rest and recuperate.

 

But this requires having authentic training and a master that an explain this to you.

 

You dont do retention for the rest of your life. Thats unhealthy and not a good way to train.

 

Retention is only suppose to be done at certain times.

 

1. building the foundation.

 

2. igniting the ldt

 

3. Maintaining the ignited ldt

 

4. Training for your next level of development.

 

After step 3 you go back to living your life.

 

You can get married have kids and so forth.

 

Come back to the neigong when your ready for the next stage of development.

 

 

But when you do comeback to neigong its 6-7hrs a day of training and retention.

 

This an last up to 7-8 months for your training for your next spiritual attainment.

 

Training is serious and its going to be hell getting to the next stage but progress is never easy.

 

This is spiritual power you dont lose it because you drank wine at olive garden or had sex with your wife later that nite.

 

Your body is the vessel for your spiritual power your body will weaken and that an hinder the flow of your spiritual power but its still there.

[opendao]

Yeah,   people   know that they can  burn  jing  and  qi  to refine  the  Dan of immortality ('不死丹'),  yet seldom do they  know that they can  also add  anxiety, fear , jealousy ..etc as fuel into oven.

 

you cannot use postheaven in the oven. You confuse the cause ("refinement") and the results ("no emotions").

[Taoist Texts]

Yeah,   people   know that they can  burn  jing  and  qi  to refine  the  Dan of immortality ('不死丹'),  yet seldom do they  know that they can  also add  anxiety, fear , jealousy ..etc as fuel into oven.

 

normally trolls don't complain after throwing shit to others. You're miserably trying to express all your negativism towards Neidan schools, but you never provide any argument. You lie and troll. So take your pudding back to your face, keep calm and don't cry.

 

Speaking about the topic, you provided one fantasy story and really think it's an Argument? I told you about Nanzong, but trolls are blind and deaf, all they want is to express their P-p-p-personality. Just to cry then, "ad hominem, I'm under attack"     

 

to wit.

[opendao]

to wit.

 

for _your_ level

[Taoist Texts]

Dear Damdao;)

 

as usual it is very hard to understand what you are actually trying to say but thats all good. But do I appreciate the parable of the sufi 

  It reminds me the story written by Idries Shah (under the pen name of Rafael Lefort) in which a seeker after truth goes to a sufi for initiation and the sufi ask the seeker if he is ready to abandon the world and to live a life of raw food and roots, the seeker nodded, and the sufi disappointed told the seeker: do you believe that the cathedrals, the medical improvements, etc. were possible thanks to eating roots people? 

However i think that you got the punchline wrong 

 

I think it goes like this:

 

The sufi ask the seeker if he is ready to abandon the world and to live a life of raw food and roots,

the seeker nodded,

and the sufi disappointed told the seeker: do you believe that the atom bomb, the millions killed in the world wars, the ecocides etc. were possible thanks to eating roots people? 

[Songtsan]

I have always wanted to go on a 'root fast' - eating only roots and rhizomes

[opendao]

Dear Damdao;)

 

as usual it is very hard to understand what you are actually trying to say but thats all good. But do I appreciate the parable of the sufi 

However i think that you got the punchline wrong 

 

I think it goes like this:

 

The sufi ask the seeker if he is ready to abandon the world and to live a life of raw food and roots,

the seeker nodded,

and the sufi disappointed told the seeker: do you believe that the atom bomb, the millions killed in the world wars, the ecocides etc. were possible thanks to eating roots people? 

 

insane logic, true negativism in all its beauty

[Songtsan]

Not all who are called masters are masters...some are just fakirs....have you guys ever heard me call myself a master? Nah, man....so when I do start calling myself that, I will really believe it. Now there are probably those who believe they are too, on the surface....but underneath are doubts....until I have no doubt, and none can be drawn from me, then I shall always be a student....If I get too high, then knock me down....if no one can knock me down, perhaps I might know what I am talking about

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah,   people   know that they can  burn  jing  and  qi  to refine  the  Dan of immortality ('不死丹'),  yet seldom do they  know that they can  also add  anxiety, fear , jealousy ..etc as fuel into oven.

 

The lower emotional jing energy is fuel for the Ocean of Qi which is the false lower tan tien - still in the conception front channel - the Conception Vessel - and so only through Emptiness focus is the energy purified - as I just posted quoting the Neidan the Dragon needs to lead the Tiger.

 

Also since the Neidanism craze on thetaobums I have read several Neidan books and they all state that celibacy is required to continue progressing while the claim otherwise is the most common error in the training.

 

Even if you achieve the "Laying of the Foundation of Immortality" - which creates the lower tan tien and is a "taste of Emptiness" - you are then at the critical stage where celibacy is even more crucial in order to fully open up the third eye.

 

And so - this is what Gurdjieff calls the difference between a Number 4 person and a Number 5 person - the number 5 has the third eye fully open.

 

So that is when the golden light manifests - from the build up of the yuan qi - it is finishing the refining of jing into qi.

 

to achieve that level requires total celibacy and total meditation focus.

 

So maybe it can be done in stages yes - maybe you can first get a taste of Emptiness as a Number 4 person. I did achieve that. If you take a break from celibacy - as long as you don't burn out your energy - then you should be able to return back to the training.

 

But to return back to the training does require celibacy again to keep building up the energy - usually done in a meditation retreat or at a monastery.

 

So then if the golden light is seen three times - the first stage is completed of refining jing into qi and the third eye is fully open.

 

The next stage begins working on the yang shen body.

 

So if you do achieve the first stage you're going to be able to create multiple yin shen bodies and also do long distance healing and powerful healing, etc.

 

Maybe you won't want to use that energy - but the energy will be there - and still celibacy will be required to build up the energy more for the yang shen body - and will require long total focus on meditation in retreat, etc.

 

But if you don't continue doing that - at the very least you would already be a miracle man in energy healing ability.

 

But if the third eye is fully open then you can recharge the energy almost as fast as you send it out - and so this is where the healing ability comes from. But again that is not the same as storing up and building the energy to the next level.

 

Certainly "breaks" could be taken from the training but the actual training does require celibacy.