Requirement for Celibacy in Neigong Training

[Brian]

opendao and Taoist Texts, that is enough. Kindly refrain from attacking each other.

[opendao]

opendao and Taoist Texts, that is enough. Kindly refrain from attacking each other.

 

with all pleasure, as soon as he stops barking about "greedy taoists", "seminars makers" and "fascist neidan schools".

[Brian]

I did not say "after the other guy stops" as that would be a pointless request.

 

In fact, rather than just asking you two to stop attacking each other, I'm going to ask that you stop attacking each other's arguments, too. Instead of telling us why you think the other guy is full of shit, try telling us why we, the Bum community, should think you are not.

 

[opendao]

I did not say "after the other guy stops" as that would be a pointless request.

 

In fact, rather than just asking you two to stop attacking each other, I'm going to ask that you stop attacking each other's arguments, too. Instead of telling us why you think the other guy is full of shit, try telling us why we, the Bum community, should think you are not.

 

 

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat 

 

And I don't have any ideas why some people are full of something. I respond to the text given, and the text is full of accuses without any arguments. So no accuses, no response.

[opendao]

The lower emotional jing energy is fuel for the Ocean of Qi which is the false lower tan tien - still in the conception front channel - the Conception Vessel - and so only through Emptiness focus is the energy purified - as I just posted quoting the Neidan the Dragon needs to lead the Tiger.

 

Also since the Neidanism craze on thetaobums I have read several Neidan books and they all state that celibacy is required to continue progressing while the claim otherwise is the most common error in the training.

 

Sad, but you still got nothing. What you explained here and in that Wang Mu thread (I've finally read your opus just to understand again where you're taking your opinion from) is no more then a new-age theory about some unusual postheaven processes in the body. It's not even "Qigong" in it's classical form, it's not Neidan. It's a way of creating a "false elixir" based on postheaven ingredients. And yes, you need the celibacy to do it as far as I know. Nowadays, there are many systems teaching that, and there are zillions of books explaining this wrong path since ancient times.

 

The entire "craze" was about the difference between "false" and "true" elixir, between modern qigong-like deviations and classical Daoism / Neidan (they are obviously the same for those who know). Many people have grasped it, and I'm really happy about this fact, even if they preferred other schools. But now they understand the difference, and won't follow the way down so easily... 

 

If you recall, the first mistake I've pointed out in your Taoist Yoga explanation was about your  understanding the "leakage" as a physical leakage of sperm through the penis point. This is wrong, but all your proofs and lengthy discourses about celibacy are based on that false assumption.

 

Find a teacher who can explain you what is Dao. It seems nobody can grasp it from books nowadays.

 

I remember myself, I've also done multiple experiments and I was absolutely sure I understand ancient yogi and taoists. Thanks God, I haven't tried to teach anyone or write much on forums... Now I can only laugh on all my "100% sure" assumptions made at that time. It was sooo wrong, but sometimes you repeat them word by word. Including the celibacy ;-\ Though you have more scientific language, but that's a real stopper for you, it makes you think too physical.

[voidisyinyang]

Dude - this is hilarious! My "opus"? haha. Why should I believe that you actually read it? Sorry but I have no reason to since I know you lie.

 

I very explicitly proved that you blatantly lied about the Taoist Yoga book three times.

 

But please go on - I enjoy your delusional speeches. The biggest lie you made was specifically about your claim Taoist Yoga doesn't refer to "leakage" as ejaculation. That is hilarious! It's one of the main foci of the book.

 

When you did actually quote Taoist Yoga - it was half-sentences! haha.

 

And then you would change the meaning of the missing second half of the sentence.

 

I saved my expose of your lies as a blogpost:

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/01/on-not-letting-alchemical-agent-drain.html

 

Here is you ClosedDao:

Basically, in TY there is nothing to support his idea that "Taoist Yoga is very clear that celibacy is the main form to stop leakage".

 

Here is the book:

 

"If the tip of the tongue is not pressed against the heavenly pool vitality will not flow into the lower tan t'ien cavity (under the navel) and the prenatal breath will drain away." p. 7

 

"The true Tao is prenatal spirit-vitality. Spirit is (essential) nature and vitality is (eternal) life which is essential generative force....The patriarch feared that students might not know the correct method when vitality manifests and so might let it drain away by the genital duct (yang kuan) to create offspring." p. 7

 

"If the teacher denies this and says his method is to turn back the flow of generative force to fortify his body so that it will be restored to its original condition before puberty and cause the penis to cease standing during sleep and to retract, his is the authentic method." p. 8

 

  "In case of nocturnal emission you should practice the method taught in Chapter 10 to stop it entirely." p. 23

 

"By laying the foundation of positive spirit is meant stopping the positive generative force from draining away, and thus producing the golden elixir." p. 29

 

"...spirit returns to nothingness because of immutable thought." p. 31 

 

"You have spoken of vitality which drains away continuously; how does one stop its drain?" Answer:  The only method is to shut the genital gate in order to ensure long life free from death." p. 58

 

 "Therefore the generative fluid, when full, will be discharged, sooner or later, as proved by nocturnal emission....and in spite of your efforts you will not be able to stop the discharge of generative fluid. Is this not most regrettable?" p. 65

 

  "But far more of it [vitality] drains through the genital gate than through the heavenly pool and if this is not checked it can even kill caste youths." p. 8

 

  "Spirit can hold vitality only temporarily but lacks the driving power of breathing, and without breathing, vitality....will finally drain away by the genital gate; this is caused by lack of pressure from in and out breathing." p. 87

 

  "When the practiser reaches this stage, he should guard against any drain of the positive principle at night, for if he is careless the original generative force will disperse and thereby nullify all that has been achieved." p. 94

 

"This cultivation of (essential) nature and (eternal) life requires constant attention and the slightest carelessness can obscure the inner light and cause the drain of the elixir with the result that all previous efforts will be sterile." p. 97

 

and this:

 

 

People ... today declare that in cultivating the Tao, leakage is not a hindrance. Are these words true or false?"
In reply, he said, "This is the number one deviant way."

 

 The Huiming Jing : a translation and discussion Author: Nicholson, James Michael MA thesis Asian studies, 2000 pdf link

[opendao]

Dude - this is hilarious! My "opus"? haha. Why should I believe that you actually read it? Sorry but I have no reason to since I know you lie.

 

I very explicitly proved that you blatantly lied about the Taoist Yoga book three times.

 

But please go on - I enjoy your delusional speeches. The biggest lie you made was specifically about your claim Taoist Yoga doesn't refer to "leakage" as ejaculation. That is hilarious! It's one of the main foci of the book.

 

When you did actually quote Taoist Yoga - it was half-sentences! haha.

 

And then you would change the meaning of the missing second half of the sentence.

 

I saved my expose of your lies as a blogpost:

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/01/on-not-letting-alchemical-agent-drain.html

 

Here is you ClosedDao:

Basically, in TY there is nothing to support his idea that "Taoist Yoga is very clear that celibacy is the main form to stop leakage".

 

Here is the book:

 

"If the tip of the tongue is not pressed against the heavenly pool vitality will not flow into the lower tan t'ien cavity (under the navel) and the prenatal breath will drain away." p. 7

 

"The true Tao is prenatal spirit-vitality. Spirit is (essential) nature and vitality is (eternal) life which is essential generative force....The patriarch feared that students might not know the correct method when vitality manifests and so might let it drain away by the genital duct (yang kuan) to create offspring." p. 7

 

"If the teacher denies this and says his method is to turn back the flow of generative force to fortify his body so that it will be restored to its original condition before puberty and cause the penis to cease standing during sleep and to retract, his is the authentic method." p. 8

 

  "In case of nocturnal emission you should practice the method taught in Chapter 10 to stop it entirely." p. 23

 

"By laying the foundation of positive spirit is meant stopping the positive generative force from draining away, and thus producing the golden elixir." p. 29

 

"...spirit returns to nothingness because of immutable thought." p. 31 

 

"You have spoken of vitality which drains away continuously; how does one stop its drain?" Answer:  The only method is to shut the genital gate in order to ensure long life free from death." p. 58

 

 "Therefore the generative fluid, when full, will be discharged, sooner or later, as proved by nocturnal emission....and in spite of your efforts you will not be able to stop the discharge of generative fluid. Is this not most regrettable?" p. 65

 

  "But far more of it [vitality] drains through the genital gate than through the heavenly pool and if this is not checked it can even kill caste youths." p. 8

 

  "Spirit can hold vitality only temporarily but lacks the driving power of breathing, and without breathing, vitality....will finally drain away by the genital gate; this is caused by lack of pressure from in and out breathing." p. 87

 

  "When the practiser reaches this stage, he should guard against any drain of the positive principle at night, for if he is careless the original generative force will disperse and thereby nullify all that has been achieved." p. 94

 

"This cultivation of (essential) nature and (eternal) life requires constant attention and the slightest carelessness can obscure the inner light and cause the drain of the elixir with the result that all previous efforts will be sterile." p. 97

 

The quotes you made, they all are

 

1) from a person who achieved nothing, but you don't care, you love to pick random quotes from anywhere if they support your opinion.

 

2) they tell nothing about celibacy. Obviously, "The only method is to shut the genital gate" proves nothing, and it's the most strong argument in your list. Maybe the book speaks about cutting penis away? ))) You're a master of reading between lines, why do you discard such a powerful method? Joke, don't do that.

 

And nocturnal emissions are stopped by absolutely different method, moreover, celibacy just makes the situation worse, but it was discussed many times here by various people.

 

3) Let's quote the entire sentence, so you don't cry again as crazy:

 

"You have spoken of vitality which drains away continuously; how does one stop its drain?" Answer:  The only method is to shut the genital gate in order to ensure long life free from death." p. 58

 

Maybe we have different bodies, but in mine nothing drains away continuously. So here Zhao, who knew really little, doesn't speak about anything physical. Human body is not an old car )))

 

4) all these emissions (sex, nocturnal) are results of the Leakage, not it's cause. By celibacy the same, you're fighting with the result, not the cause. Sure, the most visible and devastating results of the leakage are about sex and nocturnal emissions, but it's only for men. For women situation is different, and if you stop ignoring it, you will understand that celibacy cannot help )))

 

So all your words about "hilarious lies" are just bs. They cost nothing. Just illusions of inattentive mind.

Edited May 24, 2015 by opendao

[opendao]

a lil bit more from Noisysound's narcissistic blog:

 

 

 

"...People of Chan schools today declare that in cultivating the Tao, leakage is not a hindrance. Are these words true or false?"

In reply, he said, "This is the number one deviant way."

 

 "Cultivation of stillness of only cuts off the body of lust and the heart-mind of lust.

If you are unable to cut off the roots of lust

, being unable to cut them off, you will be unable to obtain the End of Leakage."blockquote>

 

"the root of lust" is not a physical drain. It's obvious even from modern medicine science pov. 

And this Noisy dude quotes Huimingjing, the core text of the school I learn. So naive...

 

For serious seeker, who are tired of charlatans here and there: the lust will gone only when you revert the yuan jing and build the foundation. This is what referred as "cut off the roots of lust". By changing the underlying cause on preheaven level, not by flexing any genitals as some talented guys might suggest.

 

It cannot be done by meditation, austere life in celibacy, physical exercises or food. Because yuan jing is a Preheaven treasure, while semen, food, breath and everything we know are just Postheaven. It's impossible to use water in a lamp. It's impossible to use fire to restore logs ))) It's impossible, by any means, convert energy we get from food to yuan jing.

 

Clowns who tell that, they've never achieved any results, and will vanish as many other charlatans before them.

[opendao]

Yuan Jing is restored with the tongue against the roof of the mouth and the fusing of Yuan qi and Yuan Shen causing increased saliva that is swallowed down to the lower tan tien - that saliva is what increases the yuan jing. So as someone posted previously - it kicks in after about an hour of full lotus meditation. Or that depends - you have a qigong master giving healing energy then the saliva can kick in right away. haha.

 

best pearl ever. <<Saliva increases yuan jing>>. No comments.

[Songtsan]

I don't understand why celibacy would be required as long as you don't ejaculate or orgasm? I do this all the time, just feeling the motions, not creating sexual fantasies in my head, just concentrating on keeping the kegel/anal pump going, while paying attention to crown chakra, inhaling up the spine, using uddiyana bhanda, kechari mudra or tongue at palate behind teeth, basically sex meditation, maverick style hodgepodge, mco...why will it hold you back so much? Are you trying to skip over that part of your story? Not go where your lower ego wants to go? I am not challenging anyone's views, just trying to reformulate my philosophy and figure myself out. Is this basically fast-tracking?

[Brian]

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat

 

And I don't have any ideas why some people are full of something. I respond to the text given, and the text is full of accuses without any arguments. So no accuses, no response.

My concern is not with your position but with your behavior (that applies equally to both of you, and to all Bums --including you, Drew). Save the presumption of innocence rhetoric for a day when you aren't showing your ass, OK?

 

Y'all just play nice and I'll go away. I've got better things to do with my time than baby-sit.

[Antares]

I've got better things to do with my time than baby-sit.

 

Ha-ha. You are going to "baby-sit" ordained daoist. You make me full of laughter. It does not matter how he says it but the matter is what he says.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Antares

[lifeforce]

Sex, and the act of ejaculation are natural. The pressure NEEDS to be released.

As long as you don't overdo it, I don't see a problem with progress.

[Chang]

Moderation Message

 

Antares has been suspended for 7 days for making comments likely to foster the  continuance of childish behaviour in this thread. Perhaps now the posts can continue without the trading of insults.

[Brian]

Ha-ha. You are going to "baby-sit" ordaint daoist. You make me full of laughter. It does not matter how he says it but matter what he says.

^^^Actually, you are mistaken about that.

[silent thunder]

with my experience in silent retreats...

I have lost far more jing, with frivolous words over my lifetime

than the moments of love I've shared with my partner.

 

not even in the same ballpark

[opendao]

with my experience in silent retreats...

I have lost far more jing, with frivolous words over my lifetime

than the moments of love I've shared with my partner.

 

not even in the same ballpark

 

right. People nowadays usually don't know how to build true relationships, and don't understand, how it can be beneficial for a spiritual practice and Dao.

 

Those rare individuals who were born to be hermits, they don't read the Internet, they are already in mountains. Because it is their innate nature, they cannot live another way. But they are very very rare.

[silent thunder]

Intimacy for me, stems from the energetic not the physical and for the physical to manifest, the underlying currents must be in open flow. 

 

While engaging with an aware, open partner, there is no loss, I liken it to musical notes... multiple notes maintain their inherent tones while creating a harmony which is greater than the individual tones.  I like this analogy for the act of love in which the sum expression is far greater than the parts.

 

edit: spelling goblins

Edited May 24, 2015 by silent thunder

[Songtsan]

Karezza always worked fine with me...if the jing becomes too fierce and I start acting wacky cause I can't sublimate it, I release...just gotta play it by ear

[voidisyinyang]

 

THE HUIMING JING - Charles Chace Acupuncture

www.charleschace.com/pdfs/Hui_Ming_Jing-Nicholson.pdf

by JM NICHOLSON - ‎2000 - ‎Related articles

another text by Liu Huayang entitled The Discourse on the Testimony of the Golden ..... If you wish to complete the diamond body of the End of Leakage, ...... its leakage is associated with the emission of semen in men

[thelerner]

In the writings about the Yellow Emperor and his (wisest?) adviser the Plain Girl, she corrects when he wonders if having no sex is the way.  She talks about controlling the refining sexuality, but not cutting it off completely. 

 

How accurate is that story considered? 

 

Thing is, the Yellow Emperor is legendary; a story lost in the mists of time.  Yet aren't such things as the diamond body to?  Do we have good solid proofs on diamond body and rainbow body and physical immortality..  I don't think we do.  There is some, but in my eyes its far from a slam dunk. 

 

There are 10,000's if not 100,000's of people who work on spirituality 24/7 pretty much yet outside of fiction we don't have monasteries where people live 100's of years or have super powers.   Even such 'hard cores' like Shaolin.  

 

Thus imo its good to warn younger practitioners about potentially retarding there life by getting into celibacy early.  Though if they're hard core and fall into a tradition where they have an acknowledged master, who knows, maybe it is good. 

 

The 150 year old + sage, who's alive and teaching doesn't seem to be out there, sadly.   So we're left with much conjecture and few role models. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by thelerner

[voidisyinyang]

Bai Yuchan explicates this point saying: "This essence is not the essence of the intercourse: it is the saliva in the mouth of the Jade Sovereign." The Jade Sovereign (Yuhuang) represents the Origin, and the "saliva in his mouth" represents the precelestial state.

p. 46, Wang Mu, Foundations of Internal Alchemy.

 

 

Question: Will you please teach me the proper method of swallowing saliva?

Answer:  This is the quickest way to produce generative force;....If you have not been taught this proper method....when you swallow the saliva...; it will produce the generative fluid....

 

p. 11 Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality

 

So the continual leakage is referring to this improper method which produces generative fluid instead of generative force but as you can see the two books corroborate each other.

[opendao]

p. 46, Wang Mu, Foundations of Internal Alchemy.

 

 

 

p. 11 Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality

 

So the continual leakage is referring to this improper method which produces generative fluid instead of generative force but as you can see the two books corroborate each other.

 

saliva is an allegory. Same as "breathing using heels" in Chuang zi, it's not about physical processes. The books were written for students, not for outsiders.

 

leakage is associated with the emission of semen in men

[vonkrankenhaus]

One question people reading this may have is to wonder what the difference in results the people posting are experiencing from their particular interpretation on this subject.

 

Otherwise - how would many even find context to these debates?

 

I did start a thread for this, if anyone interested:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38454-what-results-do-people-here-have-from-training/

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[opendao]

In the writings about the Yellow Emperor and his (wisest?) adviser the Plain Girl, she corrects when he wonders if having no sex is the way.  She talks about controlling the refining sexuality, but not cutting it off completely. 

 

How accurate is that story considered? 

 

Thing is, the Yellow Emperor is legendary; a story lost in the mists of time.  Yet aren't such things as the diamond body to?  Do we have good solid proofs on diamond body and rainbow body and physical immortality..  I don't think we do.  There is some, but in my eyes its far from a slam dunk. 

 

There are 10,000's if not 100,000's of people who work on spirituality 24/7 pretty much yet outside of fiction we don't have monasteries where people live 100's of years or have super powers.   Even such 'hard cores' like Shaolin.  

 

Thus imo its good to warn younger practitioners about potentially retarding there life by getting into celibacy early.  Though if they're hard core and fall into a tradition where they have an acknowledged master, who knows, maybe it is good. 

 

The 150 year old + sage, who's alive and teaching doesn't seem to be out there, sadly.   So we're left with much conjecture and few role models. 

 

to get proofs of the extraordinary, one needs to make extraordinary efforts