My theory on the 11:11 phenomenon

[Brian]

Yes, IMO and IME, every individual born on a certain day belongs to a very broad class who share certain archetypal traits. Archetypes according to Jung have a wide scope of expression. So they will manifest somewhat differently in every individual. It is also likely that they will be seen actualized to different degrees in different people. Despite all that, a skilled reader should be able to recognize the common Archetype connecting all those individuals.

 

Let's try to use your wife's chart as a practical example. Two of her cards are the same like two of Brian's, so their underlying concepts will supposedly be rather central for both of them.

 

I will again describe them in general terms, and we will see how your wife and Brian hopefully can relate to them, each in their own way.

 

In both cases, the Soul Card is Trump I, The Magus. (He is called The Juggler in many old decks.)

 

 

This signifies a multi-faceted individual with several talents easily put to use. The card shows the God Mercury, meaning that these talents will especially pertain to communication in some form. Thus, they also tend to be rather adept at deception.

 

In his very essence, The Magus is about the power to create one's own world in accordance with one's will.

 

Further. the Personality Card is Trump X, Fortune (or The Wheel of Fortune, in other decks).

 

 

These individuals will see life as a constantly changing game. They will take shifting circumstances for granted and even use them to their advantage. Especially if they manage to stand in the middle of the wheel as per The Magus. They may even be "soldiers of fortune", to one degree or another.

 

As it happens, your wife also has Trump VIII as her annual card!!!

 

So the same question goes to her as to all the others so far: Does the current year (since her birthday) seem to be in some way a time for contemplation and reflection, or rather a time for fun and enjoyment of sorts?

 

Edit:

 

Brian, as I mentioned, The Magus and Fortune both apply to you just like they do to Nikolai's wife. By the way, isn't it curious that your birthdays are only one day apart from each other?

 

However, your kind of case is the only one that includes three cards! I will come back to you, the third card and, of course, your annual card shortly.

Did I miss something, Michael? Did you post a response to my birth date? I have scanned back over this thread and don't see one but you seem to be referencing such a reading in this post.

 

<confused>

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Nunglai and Bes,

 

This issue of drain and personal resources is a very tricky area, and I think any therapist will find themselves encountering it time and time again.

 

Firstly, our resources available are proportional to our spiritual maturity.  A person who is very much in the egoic state of being in a world of time and space will automatically be low on resources.  Their consciousness is very individuated.  It therefore follows that any giving of love or assistance will at some level be believed to be squandered energy.  

 

On the other end of the scale, a person whose consciousness is liberally spread out across all selves will be able to vicariously appreciate the help they themselves give, as if they were the receiver.  Giving and loving is therefore a perfectly energising behaviour.  It is indistinguishable from being selfish.

 

When we have children, who are so close to us genetically and other wise, it often comes naturally that we gain energy through caring for them.  Their well-being is our own well-being, and this can come as a revelation. Childcare is a powerful yoga, and parents can often see the lack of this yoga in their peers who have not had children.

 

A wonderful description of The Empress on an advanced level.

 

But you also aptly addressed the lower forms of this Archetype's expression:

 

But, some people, like Nungali said, are not spiritually strong enough to have children.  They are so egoic that they still consider the care they give, at some level, to be squandered energy.  They may even say to their own children: "Do you have any idea what I have sacrificed for you?"  

 

When these egoic people are women an extra problem in our society occurs.  All their limited love goes to their children, and the father of the children, whether he is loving or unloving, can start to be viewed as an outright drain.  The woman becomes incapable of contributing any further to their adult-adult relationship, and may start behaving in ways to the father that are intolerably selfish.  Unless the father is a very strong person, with high resources, the relationship will fail and the women is left in an even more desperate situation as they will be the one left with the children  Subjectively, they may feel like they are the ones abandoned, but all this is due to them never learning the simple lesson: if you want love and energy, you need to give love and energy.

 

The therapy rooms are absolutely full of people telling the same old narrative: "I gave too much to others, and too little to myself.  Now I need to take more care of myself." This narrative is a very unfortunate trap.

 

I had plenty of them in my therapy room at the time I was collaborating with a psychiatrist.

 

If they were actually being selfless, they would not feel drained - quite the opposite.  They feel drained because they don't understand anything except the selfish mode.  It is intrinsic to their state of being, but they were forced into a caring role they weren't equipped for.  Any suggestion that it is now time to be more selfish will just delay the needed insight, growth and healing.

 

Many counsellors will suggest exactly that, not seeing the trap here.

 

We have probably all noticed that the most selfish people in life are often full of indignation about other people's selfishness. And from their own perspective this will make perfect sense.  They will genuinely feel very drained.  It takes something very special and perhaps drastic to provoke the necessary change of heart.  In my experience, everyday therapy never had this power.  It must come from a different place, perhaps a place that despairs that even therapy can help.

[Michael Sternbach]

Where are you, Songtsan? I hope that you are no longer suffering from your birthday party's aftermath.

[Michael Sternbach]

Did I miss something, Michael? Did you post a response to my birth date? I have scanned back over this thread and don't see one but you seem to be referencing such a reading in this post.

 

<confused>

 

Sorry, Brian, I was somewhat overwhelmed with all the interest and feedback, that's why I didn't manage to progress to your cards as quickly as I wished. In order to catch up, I was pleased to be able to address two of your birth cards in the post you quoted, as they happen to coincide with another querent's cards. I only give general characteristics which are supposed to apply to one degree or another to anybody who has these as Personality and Soul card.

 

Beyond that, in your case, we need to look at Trump XIX or The Sun. I will get back to it shortly.

[Brian]

OK! Thank you, Michael. I have been reading this thread with interest and, when I saw what appeared to be a reference to the past, I wondered whether I had overlooked something or you thought you posted something which didn't make it to the forum or what. Upon rereading after reading this post, I see that you were partially introducing my cards in conjunction with Nikolai1's wife's cards because of the overlap.

 

I will reread this part again in this context and will wait patiently for you to get a chance to circle back around.

 

Thank you again!

Brian

[Michael Sternbach]

Thanks Michael

 

This is what interests me the most.  Is our archetype within us but somehow obscured by our more conditioned everyday selfhood?

 

I think so.  I think the highly conditioned person is an arbitrary amalgamation of all the thoughts, opinions, behaviours of the time and place they have grown up in.  Their archetypal nature is hidden by the noise of all the people that are influencing them. Individuation is the process of stripping all this away, and allowing a deeper essential selfhood reveal itself.  It was always there, but its influence was weak.  With individuation we become conscious of our archetypal nature, and it is this that allows us to see and recognise the meaning behind things like the Tarot. If we don't do this for ourselves, then it will require a very skilful and intuitive Tarot Reader to discern the hidden truths.

 

An individual's archetypal nature will always seek to and, to one degree or another degree, manages to find expression in a their life. But it is true that individuation goes hand in hand with a purer and more conscious form of manifesting those generic energies.

 

The return to one's roots is symbolized in Tarot by The Fool. This is also a fundamental theme in Daoism and Buddhism.

 

But our archetypal selves are not our deepest selves.  The archetypal self, in my case the Hermit, is more like a spiritual law or pattern that we notice we are following.  In some ways it is a replacement for everyday conformity to society. We notice that our body in time and space is conforming to an ancient pattern known only to the seers. Obviously this applies very much to the I Ching, which has constantly intrigued me how it can give such relevant responses. But who we actually, and deeply are, is the witness that notices our other self and the lawfulness of his behaviour.

 

The deepest self (or "nameless witness") would be analogous to the Source of the Archetypes, the Zero in their middle, the void that Buddhism and Daoism describe. It may be seen as represented by The Fool.

 

To discover our archetypal nature is to discover a meaningful dimension to our existence that before we quite literally did not see.  

 

That's where my interest in Tarot, Astrology, the I Ching, and other methods of divination has its root. Seeing and understanding to whatever degree the patterns that create our life, both internally and externally.

 

I have found this whole conversation deeply rewarding, and lots of things have become clear that I have wondered about.  Thank you to everyone participating.

 

Michael - my wife is away but I'll discuss it with her and give you some feedback

[Nikolai1]

Hi Michael

 

But it is true that individuation goes hand in hand with a purer and more conscious form of manifesting those generic energies.

It came as a revelation to me when I realised that a symbol, like any word, is not only referring to something beyond itself, but is also an event in reality in its own right.  In other words, when we view a symbol as a mere symbol of something more real, we lessen it.  Any symbol is fully real, fully alive.

 

I think this is the basic crux of Jung's whole work.  Maybe this realisation is what is needed for the results of Divination to be a meaningful and living reality .  For me, I've spent most my adult life uninterested in these matters but experiences with the I Ching changed that - its now pretty much unfailingly helpful.

 

Some people seem to born knowing this.  Because I've always been very intellectual by nature, it was very important for me to view symbols as pale reflections of a much more real reality. I was very slow.  Life is so much more beautiful, rich and interesting without this limited belief.

[Michael Sternbach]

I would not wish that upon anyone ! 

 

I seen a bunch of half arsed stoned hippies get together a better communal  'magical abbey' situation than that .  

 

  Re the ;  " Crowley in fact uses the GD's revised numerical order in column XIV of theLiber 777. As its publication preceded the Thoth deck, Crowley may simply have changed his mind at some stage. "

 

That occurs quiet a bit, especially in some tables and lists that were drawn up earlier, they were sourced for the book on tarot but were written or complied earlier than the writing of the text, by then he developed extended or changed a few ideas. Amongst some of those snippetts of tables are some key factors of the system exposed .....  (like the attribution of some court cards to 'normal astrology'  - considered signs  nowadays -  but also some include constellations off the ecliptic and hence outside of the 'zodiac' which IMO is a strong argument for a sidereal system based on constellational astrology .... with a twist.

 

As you probably know, people will argue against me on this .... but they just have not read the originating GD papers about the type of astrology originally used ... nowadays its all considered some type of modern tropical sun based stuff with a geocentric basis  and ' planet and sign  annotated decanic minors are considered to have the same energy as modern astrological (e.g.)   ' Venus in Cancer ' .  

 

Well, Tropical Astrology is not exactly a modern invention, however. It is actually the only kind of Astrology used in Western tradition, although, arguably, in the first centuries CE the shift between the two Zodiacs was rather neglectable. It's true that some Theosophists influenced by Indian astrology advocated a Sidereal Zodiac, and it seems quite likely to me that they inspired the GD to employ a Sidereal Zodiac.

 

As you certainly know, the GD interpretation of the numbered Minor Arcana is strongly based on the decan system of the Picatrix, and that is meant as a Tropical system. (It could be interesting to compare this with the descriptions of the decans in the Sidereal Vedic system though.)

 

But if we assume that both kinds of Zodiac are valid, then it is a logical assumption that an identical system of decans/pip cards could be applied to either.

 

Ime, the GD attributions work just fine in a Tropical framework. However, I agree that in light of the hints in the GD literature, the topic warrants further exploration.

 

I certainly agree that i.e. the Two of Cups card - despite the astrological symbols it carries - does not represent the planet Venus in Cancer. Rather, it denotes the Venusian 10° segment of that sign, according to the "Chaldean system" of Teucer the Babylonian. Knowledge of this system is required for understanding the astrological attributions of the pips.

 

I find this thread somewhat unsuitable for an in-depth discussion of such technical details but would welcome it elsewhere.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

Mhe ... that happens all over the place, especially in the Book of Thoth. I think many of the tables and charts were from earlier sources ( 'The Equinox' s )  and patched into the Book of Thoth after the text was written, between the two hic ideas changed or were developed. Bad editing in a few cases, and also a few bad cases of 'smearing'  ( check the astrological correspondences for the courts in the tables - not texts.  Cards like Prince of Cups .... if you dont already know what I mean ... get ready for a surprise and a follow up realisation that the whole system is not as most see it ( even the Thoth experts )    

 

Do you mean in the appendix of the BoT: "Attributions of the Court Cards"? The Prince of Cups ruling from 20° Libra to 20° Scorpio - that looks about right. <shrug>

 

The 'New Jerusalem' is shown as the advent of science - the new 'Parthenon' constructed by the 'periodic table'. 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

People stick him all over the place.

 

Including between Trumps 20 and 21.

 

I agree with some that he should be   0

 

Right. And 22.

 

22 = 4 = 0 unfolded to the original quaternity (the Quintessence plus the Four Elements).

 

The centre of the circle of trumps much like the Sun is the centre of the zodiac, they are all experiences waiting for the Sun / Fool.

 

So I put the Fool at the centre of the circle of trumps.

 

That's certainly another valid perspective.

 

 After he becomes a bit adept at this, like, experience and its cycles become a joy of expression and a dance of bliss of the forces of creation.

 

Like in this card

 

 

which could nearly be its polarity

 

Right. The two card are denoting beginning and end - followed by new beginning.

 

Thus, there is a "wormhole" connecting the two cards to each other.

 

From the Tabula Mundi deck.

 

(PS , Tarotpop sucks ... you want an image of this card and if you type in ' Universe tarot Card' you get 99% pics of Waite's World card and similar    

 

<goes into esoteric shop >    "One Thoth tarot Deck please."

 

"You mean one Waite deck?"

 

No. one Thoth deck.

 

I think you want this deck <pulls out Waite deck>

 

No, I want a Thoth tarot deck !

 

This is better. 

 

Thoth ....    T ...  H  ...  O ...  

 

W  ...A  ... I   ..  . 

 

 

 

Yes, I know exactly what you mean!

Edited June 4, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

Another thing is that, in my case, my Hermit nature was often experienced as fear of the everyday world.  Though they have stopped now, I frequently dreamt that me and my friends were forced to cross a field where lions and tigers were loose.  Nobody else was afraid except me, and I ended up taking the long way round by walking all the way around the fence!  My feeling that the world couldn't satisfy me, and fear of the world were the same thing.  If my mood was high I would disdain those below me, when low, I would be very self-critical of my own cowardice and uninvolvement.

 

Which brings me to yet another kind of card based on the date of birth: The Shadow Card. For people like you who get only one card by the calculation mentioned above, the other card among the Trumps of the same value is nevertheless also significant. However, it is a shadow theme that the individual generally needs to work on to come to terms with. The Hermit's shadow is Trump XVIII, The Moon. It most typically means fear.

 

 

Well the lust card seems very out of place, to be honest.  The past year has been a quiet, reflective time characterised by hardly any changes in my outer circumstances.  

 

Internally, I have really noticed a lot the way in which my state of being switches between lower fear-based moods, and confident, loving 'everything will be fine' moods.  I've had to be very careful to stay very centred and not let either side capture my attention so long.  Because I have managed this mostly very well, the shifts from side to side were always quite subtle and not passionate and uncontrollable (Lust).

 

My own metaphor has been the 'walking the razor's edge' or the Game of Love (i wrote about this here).  But, I can immediately relate to the Justice card, if we imagine a person with a set of scales in their hand.  I imagine that its been like trying to walk with a full cup of water.  I've been moving slowly and carefully, and developing power and poise over myself, staying aloof to my own shifting moods.  In my terms, this inner power is going to be vitally important if my Hermit's return is going to go well.

 

That certainly sounds a lot like the Adjustment card. For achieving the perfect sense of balance it shows (the woman on the picture is balancing on the tips of her toes!), Crowley suggested (in a lecture on Yoga) to meditate in the lotus posture with a brimmed cup of sulfuric acid on the top of your head. Not unconditionally recommended...

 

If the strength that I have gained in seclusion is not enough or if it turns out that I am only strong when I hide away, then I will lose the balance of the scales and things will turn out badly.

 

I have been sharing your words with my wife, and we are both astonished at how closely the Hermit resembles me.  I am like the living cliche of the Hermit!  So, we tried the same with her according to you method and we got nothing of any real meaning.  This made me wonder why people respond so differently to things like the tarot and I started another thread on this theme.  I'm wondering whether spiritual practice somehow reveals, or brings to the forefront those aspects of our selves that are in line with the oracles.

 

All the best and thanks for everything

[Michael Sternbach]

Brian,

 

We already knew it, but now it's official: You are a Sonnyboy!

 

Since your birth card (besides the two already discussed above) reveals you as a type belonging to Trump XIX - The Sun:

 

 

Individuals symbolized by this card indeed have a "sunny" radiation that attracts others to them. They are seen as cheerful and uplifting, positive and optimistic. High energy and creativity are theirs. On the card's difficult side, they tend to look down at others sometimes.

 

The Sun is illuminating the personality. It is noteworthy that only the XIX/X/I combination doesn't imply a "shadow card" (see above).

[Michael Sternbach]

Let's not forget your annual card, Sonnyboy:

 

Trump VII, The Chariot:

 

 

The time until your next birthday should have an atmosphere of departure to it. There is something new that you set out for. The card also often speaks of physical travelling.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nikolai1]

Hi Michael,

 

Time to give you thanks and feedback for the reading you did for my wife;

 

This signifies a multi-faceted individual with several talents easily put to use.

Whatever my wife does, she does well - it is hard to imagine a more conscientious person.  It seems like whatever direction circumstances had taken her, she would have made the best of where she was.  A couple of downsides are: she doesn't possess what could be called genius.  She gets where she gets through hard work, will power, and the ability to learn from others, rather than through unique inspiration.  

 

The card shows the God Mercury, meaning that these talents will especially pertain to communication in some form. 

My wife is Finnish but her command of the English language in far superior to most English.  Her ability to mimic the nuances of English is unlike anybody I've ever met.  She wasn't a child when she came to English, she was 18, but still nobody ever realises that she is a foreigner.  She is also a proficient science writer and has published many papers in respected journals. But, as with before, she has learned well the required style of academic journals but it is not in any way unique.  It is highly generic, and I think she would struggle to write anything more singular and creative.

 

Thus, they also tend to be rather adept at deception. 

Well, this isn't the case because she is a hopeless liar and seems lost when she hasn't got reality to rely on.  She can be very manipulative, but I'm not sure if this is the same thing?  She's a person who could go into politics because she often can't distinguish between the truth and her opinion of the truth.  Her first instinct is to get people to see her view, and gets frustrated by the need to form a shared view.  She isn't someone who can generate higher truth perspectives, but is rather more interested in using her truth as a means to achieve results. A pragmatist, basically.

 

In his very essence, The Magus is about the power to create one's own world in accordance with one's will.

Yes, my wife's will is her true power centre.  But, and maybe this is a shadow trait, but she is not a creative person.  The direction of her will is usually provided by external mentors, whose work she then very diligently implements.  Maybe it would be an individuation project to listen more to her unique self?

 

So, onto the wheel of fortune:

 

These individuals will see life as a constantly changing game. They will take shifting circumstances for granted and even use them to their advantage.

Our 11 years together have seen near constant change. For example, we have lived in 7 different towns and 9 different houses!

 

So the same question goes to her as to all the others so far: Does the current year (since her birthday) seem to be in some way a time for contemplation and reflection, or rather a time for fun and enjoyment of sorts?

Probably the contemplation, although she isn't the contemplative type.  But yes, the past year has been about reevaluating her career, which is part of the reason we are going back to the UK.

 

Another really interesting exercise, thank you. I think we both learned a lot from this!

[Brian]

Yes, IMO and IME, every individual born on a certain day belongs to a very broad class who share certain archetypal traits. Archetypes according to Jung have a wide scope of expression. So they will manifest somewhat differently in every individual. It is also likely that they will be seen actualized to different degrees in different people. Despite all that, a skilled reader should be able to recognize the common Archetype connecting all those individuals.

 

Let's try to use your wife's chart as a practical example. Two of her cards are the same like two of Brian's, so their underlying concepts will supposedly be rather central for both of them.

 

I will again describe them in general terms, and we will see how your wife and Brian hopefully can relate to them, each in their own way.

 

In both cases, the Soul Card is Trump I, The Magus. (He is called The Juggler in many old decks.)

 

 

This signifies a multi-faceted individual with several talents easily put to use. The card shows the God Mercury, meaning that these talents will especially pertain to communication in some form. Thus, they also tend to be rather adept at deception.

 

In his very essence, The Magus is about the power to create one's own world in accordance with one's will.

 

Further. the Personality Card is Trump X, Fortune (or The Wheel of Fortune, in other decks).

 

 

These individuals will see life as a constantly changing game. They will take shifting circumstances for granted and even use them to their advantage. Especially if they manage to stand in the middle of the wheel as per The Magus. They may even be "soldiers of fortune", to one degree or another.

 

As it happens, your wife also has Trump VIII as her annual card!!!

 

So the same question goes to her as to all the others so far: Does the current year (since her birthday) seem to be in some way a time for contemplation and reflection, or rather a time for fun and enjoyment of sorts?

 

Edit:

 

Brian, as I mentioned, The Magus and Fortune both apply to you just like they do to Nikolai's wife. By the way, isn't it curious that your birthdays are only one day apart from each other?

 

However, your kind of case is the only one that includes three cards! I will come back to you, the third card and, of course, your annual card shortly.

Brian,

 

We already knew it, but now it's official: You are a Sonnyboy!

 

Since your birth card (besides the two already discussed above) reveals you as a type belonging to Trump XIX - The Sun:

 

 

Individuals symbolized by this card indeed have a "sunny" radiation that attracts others to them. They are seen as cheerful and uplifting, positive and optimistic. High energy and creativity are theirs. On the card's difficult side, they tend to look down at others sometimes.

 

The Sun is illuminating the personality. It is noteworthy that only the XIX/X/I combination doesn't imply a "shadow card" (see above).

What a trip!

 

So, Magus or Juggler as Soul card suggests a complex character with various talents but with communication skills at the center, a person able to mold one's own world but also at risk of being a deceiver. Wheel of Fortune as Personality card reflects one who recognizes reality to be an ever-changing adventure and one which, with the Magus in the center of the Wheel, can be manipulated (and such manipulations, I presume, should be carefully considered because they can be impactful?) Finally, the Sun as Birth card suggests a positive radiance and energetic creative capabilities (which would seem to play off the other two cards) but carries with it the risk of conceit and condescension.

 

Frankly, Michael, this is stunning. It not only captures both the positive and negative of who I have been since earliest childhood but it shines a light on my current path as well as providing meaningful insight into my future as I currently see it unfolding (unfolding with a little help from me, of course...) Thank you.

 

Would it surprise anyone that I am also a wood dragon?

[Nungali]

Yes but why not? 

 

 

I had to go back, I lost track of the conversation

 

" "Are you seriously saying that all people born on August 23rd 1976 are intensely searching Hermits like you? "

 

I said of course not,  , the tone was  due to the bolded bit -  IMO   no, it isnt serious - or quiet like that.

 

The why :  ( I assumed you thought the same, thats why I didnt bother explaining )   because that is a generalisation, like saying 'I am a Leo ' , IMO one cant divide human uniqueness into 12 categories, one can roughly group into 12 types, or 2 types or 64 types.

 

Also, there are a lot of things and potentials associated with the Hermit card, depending on other influences, as in astrology, different things may be drawn out. 

 

Or they might be intensely searching Hermits ....   but not like him.  

[Nungali]

The energy that the different versions of the card are speaking of may be the same. How it is dealt with depends on the outlook of the author, however. It is not surprising that Crowley would advocate a wild ride on the "Lion" of one's animalistic instincts. Whereas a medieval/'Germanistic' deck like the Swiss 1JJ Tarot seems to emphasize dominating and taming the Lion by "manly virtue". A Zen approach in contrast with a Tantric approach, you might say.

 

 

But yes, this Trump can be seen as representing vital force in general. It doesn't always mean sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll. However, it does talk of enjoying one's strength one way or another.

 

 

To me, it looks like a depiction of Hercules ... note the club.  Here we have the opposite of how the woman seems to be dealing with the lion. A type of  'Brute Strength'.  

 

IMO the  Hercules myth demonstrates a failure of the journey;  considering the story and what ends up happening.   The  Shamanic journey is one of acceptance ; it would depict more of a 'taming' of the lion, or even a devouring by the lion. The Shaman does not see his 'transformers' as a threat to be subdued with a club.   IMO the myth shows the failure of trying to navigate through the mythological world using the vehicle of the ego. *

 

' Domination by manly virtue' , yes, that is a good phrase. 

 

'Depends on the outlook of the author' - indeed !   If one is using one's tarot 'spiritually' or as an 'esoteric knowledge input', one better choose the 'right' deck for oneself. 

 

 

* a further example of this is seen in the 'modern shamanic journey' , say a UFO abduction; the experience seems passive, the person often in a type of hypnotic state, not happy about it,, but compliant, often 'against their will', but you never hear in these stories; " So I jumped off the table, kicked the probe out of his hand and punched him in the face."

 

Thats the 'ego hero' ....  the 'manly virtue'   .... it does happen in mythology (and boasting      )   and fiction, and because of the nature of our usual consciousness, those type of guys are pop and a 'hero'

 

 

Edited June 9, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Well, Tropical Astrology is not exactly a modern invention, however. It is actually the only kind of Astrology used in Western tradition, although, arguably, in the first centuries CE the shift between the two Zodiacs was rather neglectable. It's true that some Theosophists influenced by Indian astrology advocated a Sidereal Zodiac, and it seems quite likely to me that they inspired the GD to employ a Sidereal Zodiac.

 

I meant tropical modern astrology  not western tropical astrology ... you know, that 'Leo fellow'  post GD.   ( He was post GD wasn't he ? ) 

 

 

As you certainly know, the GD interpretation of the numbered Minor Arcana is strongly based on the decan system of the Picatrix, and that is meant as a Tropical system. (It could be interesting to compare this with the descriptions of the decans in the Sidereal Vedic system though.)

 

Ummmm   .... it is ?    Oh ... * 

 

But if we assume that both kinds of Zodiac are valid, then it is a logical assumption that an identical system of decans/pip cards could be applied to either.

 

Ime, the GD attributions work just fine in a Tropical framework. However, I agree that in light of the hints in the GD literature, the topic warrants further exploration.

 

Even Crowley lists things in the Book of Thoth siderally.   Some will say Knight of Cups is Pisces in the Thoth deck.  Thothites will correct them ;  " Ahem ...  20 deg Aquarius to 20 deg Pisces ! "

 

But the table on BoT says ; 20 deg Aquarius to 20 deg Pisces including most of Pegasus .  ... and the Knight of Wands, part of  Hercules .....   but  *

 

 

 

I certainly agree that i.e. the Two of Cups card - despite the astrological symbols it carries - does not represent the planet Venus in Cancer. Rather, it denotes the Venusian 10° segment of that sign, according to the "Chaldean system" of Teucer the Babylonian. Knowledge of this system is required for understanding the astrological attributions of the pips.

 

I find this thread somewhat unsuitable for an in-depth discussion of such technical details but would welcome it elsewhere.

 

*    yeah, sorry ... I just found it an interesting side line  ..... I will restrain my comments to    11:11       

[Nungali]

Do you mean in the appendix of the BoT: "Attributions of the Court Cards"? The Prince of Cups ruling from 20° Libra to 20° Scorpio - that looks about right. <shrug>

 

 

 

 

see above  ^ 

[Nikolai1]

Nungali

 

 IMO one cant divide human uniqueness into 12 categories, one can roughly group into 12 types, or 2 types or 64 types.

 

Also, there are a lot of things and potentials associated with the Hermit card, depending on other influences, as in astrology, different things may be drawn out. 

My theory, quite new, is that we mature into our archetypal existence.  The lives of the unregenerate are not written in the stars.  The counsel of the oracles is the gift reserved for those brave enough to become individuals.

 

This is why Tarot is derided as meaningless by most people.  Because it is for them.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Michael,

 

Time to give you thanks and feedback for the reading you did for my wife;

 

Whatever my wife does, she does well - it is hard to imagine a more conscientious person.  It seems like whatever direction circumstances had taken her, she would have made the best of where she was.  A couple of downsides are: she doesn't possess what could be called genius.  She gets where she gets through hard work, will power, and the ability to learn from others, rather than through unique inspiration.  

 

My wife is Finnish but her command of the English language in far superior to most English.  Her ability to mimic the nuances of English is unlike anybody I've ever met.  She wasn't a child when she came to English, she was 18, but still nobody ever realises that she is a foreigner.  She is also a proficient science writer and has published many papers in respected journals. But, as with before, she has learned well the required style of academic journals but it is not in any way unique.  It is highly generic, and I think she would struggle to write anything more singular and creative.

 

First off, as has been mentioned repeatedly on this thread, the Archetypes (as defined by Tarot or any other system) are broad in scope - meaning that they can be expressed in multitudinous ways, yet connected by a common theme. For, unlike the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica, human beings are not manufactured as merely a handful of different types.

 

That said, your wife is an excellent example of our Tarot Magus in several ways. Although you don't see her as very creative in her work, I would say, her writing and publishing articles is a pretty creative act per say. Certainly, the Magus is adept at using various kinds of media for communication. Further, your wife's ability to imitate others so perfectly is in line with the Magus as a "trickster". The monkey on the card symbolizes that aspect!

 

Well, this isn't the case because she is a hopeless liar and seems lost when she hasn't got reality to rely on.  She can be very manipulative, but I'm not sure if this is the same thing?  She's a person who could go into politics because she often can't distinguish between the truth and her opinion of the truth.  Her first instinct is to get people to see her view, and gets frustrated by the need to form a shared view.  She isn't someone who can generate higher truth perspectives, but is rather more interested in using her truth as a means to achieve results. A pragmatist, basically.

 

Also, skilful manipulation is a typical domain of the Magus. It doesn't necessarily involve dishonesty. It looks like your wife does apply her skill for shaping her environment according to her will.

 

Yes, my wife's will is her true power centre.  But, and maybe this is a shadow trait, but she is not a creative person.  The direction of her will is usually provided by external mentors, whose work she then very diligently implements.  Maybe it would be an individuation project to listen more to her unique self?

 

I have already covered this above, for the most part. And yes, it is very conceivable that it would be part of her individuation process to reach and act from that original part of herself - in other words, progressing from the imitating "monkey self" to her unique "magical" inner self.

 

So, onto the wheel of fortune:

 

Our 11 years together have seen near constant change. For example, we have lived in 7 different towns and 9 different houses!

 

Further, this also ties in well with the following observation of yours that I quoted above:

 

"It seems like whatever direction circumstances had taken her, she would have made the best of where she was."

 

Probably the contemplation, although she isn't the contemplative type.  But yes, the past year has been about reevaluating her career, which is part of the reason we are going back to the UK.

 

Unlike you, your wife seems to rather support the traditional attribution of the number 8 to Adjustment then. The question remains unresolved for the time being. I suppose, I should present it on a Tarot forum...

 

Another really interesting exercise, thank you. I think we both learned a lot from this!

 

Sure! There is still more to come though...

 

Another interesting consideration for any kind of relationship between two people is the, well, relationship card. For calculating it, the sums of the two birth dates are added up, in this case 2007 + 2008 = 4015 = 10: Thus, the Fortune card once again!

 

In keeping with what I said about this card earlier, such a relationship is characterized by constant change. But of course, you are already aware of this yourself:

 

"Our 11 years together have seen near constant change. For example, we have lived in 7 different towns and 9 different houses!"

 

Despite the unpredictability this card brings with it, its affiliation with Jupiter overall suggests a serendipitious relationship, with much potential for spiritual expansion and growth.

[Michael Sternbach]

What a trip!

 

So, Magus or Juggler as Soul card suggests a complex character with various talents but with communication skills at the center, a person able to mold one's own world but also at risk of being a deceiver. Wheel of Fortune as Personality card reflects one who recognizes reality to be an ever-changing adventure and one which, with the Magus in the center of the Wheel, can be manipulated (and such manipulations, I presume, should be carefully considered because they can be impactful?)

 

Yes, the Magus is able to make use of both "positive" and "negative" forces, thus he should apply his skills wisely.

 

Finally, the Sun as Birth card suggests a positive radiance and energetic creative capabilities (which would seem to play off the other two cards) but carries with it the risk of conceit and condescension.

 

Actually, they are all birth cards. But since you are one of those rare individuals who have three of them, we run out of names for describing them all. And yes, since these cards individually result in the same one-digit summary, they are related and interacting.

 

Frankly, Michael, this is stunning. It not only captures both the positive and negative of who I have been since earliest childhood but it shines a light on my current path as well as providing meaningful insight into my future as I currently see it unfolding (unfolding with a little help from me, of course...) Thank you.

 

You are welcome.

 

Any observations on your annual card? (The Chariot, that I talked about in post # 113.)

 

Would it surprise anyone that I am also a wood dragon?

Edited June 10, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes, my wife's will is her true power centre.  But, and maybe this is a shadow trait, but she is not a creative person.  The direction of her will is usually provided by external mentors, whose work she then very diligently implements.  Maybe it would be an individuation project to listen more to her unique self?

 

An additional comment on this:

 

Your wife has The Sun as her shadow card. And the Sun represents one's innermost self and individuality. This seems to be submerged to some degree here, and making it more available would require awareness-raising measures.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Michael

 

It came as a revelation to me when I realised that a symbol, like any word, is not only referring to something beyond itself, but is also an event in reality in its own right.  In other words, when we view a symbol as a mere symbol of something more real, we lessen it.  Any symbol is fully real, fully alive.

 

I think this is the basic crux of Jung's whole work.  Maybe this realisation is what is needed for the results of Divination to be a meaningful and living reality .  For me, I've spent most my adult life uninterested in these matters but experiences with the I Ching changed that - its now pretty much unfailingly helpful.

 

Some people seem to born knowing this.  Because I've always been very intellectual by nature, it was very important for me to view symbols as pale reflections of a much more real reality. I was very slow.  Life is so much more beautiful, rich and interesting without this limited belief.

 

The materialist sees symbols necessarily as purely psychological and derived from external reality. By contrast, the esoteric (essentially Platonic) view considers them (or, more precisely, the Archetypes that they represent) the primary factors underlying both internal and external reality.

 

The 64 hexagrams of the I Ching are actually a great example as they equal the 64 codons that the genetic code is based on. Thus, they can be seen as providing the "genetic code" or "matrix" that reality as we know it is based on.

[Michael Sternbach]

Nungali

 

My theory, quite new, is that we mature into our archetypal existence.  The lives of the unregenerate are not written in the stars.  The counsel of the oracles is the gift reserved for those brave enough to become individuals.

 

This is why Tarot is derided as meaningless by most people.  Because it is for them.

 

Since the Archetypes are underlying and constituting everything that exists, they cannot be truly irrelevant for anybody. However, I would agree that the degree of their recognition and expression can vary from one individual to another.

 

Your wife seems to be a good example: Even though she is not into spiritual cultivation and does not acknowledge the reality of the Archetypes, she is expressing them nonetheless, as we saw earlier.