My theory on the 11:11 phenomenon

[Michael Sternbach]

Mine says 8:20 ....    I will be back in  2 hrs and 51 mins .to finish this post  ...

 

8 = 11 (see above)

20 = 2

11 = 2

 

You didn't go OT that much.

[Michael Sternbach]

Oh, and if you folks like my Tarot readings, make sure you have a look at my new blog:

 

https://michaelsternbach.wordpress.com/

 

It is pretty much under construction. If you subscribe, I will be happy to keep you posted.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nikolai1]

Hi Michael

 

Not least, being a Hermit endows you with an extraordinary ability of introspection and self-awareness.

Thank you! One of the most beautiful, most rewarding moments on the Path is when your own biography, so puzzling up close, starts to make perfect sense.  Having arrived, you can look back and see how everything brought you to this point.  It is hugely comforting, and you really feel a benevolent force shaping your life. I think five years ago I wouldn't have realised my own inner Hermit so clearly.  Or to put it another way, the Hermit was there but showing the more negative sides of the character.  I frequently lamented my own isolation, but at the same time considered arrogantly that many people were incapable of understanding me.  These aren't attractive qualities.  

 

Another thing is that, in my case, my Hermit nature was often experienced as fear of the everyday world.  Though they have stopped now, I frequently dreamt that me and my friends were forced to cross a field where lions and tigers were loose.  Nobody else was afraid except me, and I ended up taking the long way round by walking all the way around the fence!  My feeling that the world couldn't satisfy me, and fear of the world were the same thing.  If my mood was high I would disdain those below me, when low, I would be very self-critical of my own cowardice and uninvolvement.

 

In your case, if the GD order holds true, the current year of your life (a "number 11 year"), would be characterized by the Adjustment card, thus the theme would be balance and inner stability, whether this would be experienced or rather looked for; it is a very internalized and meditative state. Some people start doing Yoga or something like that in such a time. It is also conceivable that it ties in with the adjustment necessary when returning to your country.

 

What seems to be the better match? I would appreciate your insights on this.

Well the lust card seems very out of place, to be honest.  The past year has been a quiet, reflective time characterised by hardly any changes in my outer circumstances.  

 

Internally, I have really noticed a lot the way in which my state of being switches between lower fear-based moods, and confident, loving 'everything will be fine' moods.  I've had to be very careful to stay very centred and not let either side capture my attention so long.  Because I have managed this mostly very well, the shifts from side to side were always quite subtle and not passionate and uncontrollable (Lust).

 

My own metaphor has been the 'walking the razor's edge' or the Game of Love (i wrote about this here).  But, I can immediately relate to the Justice card, if we imagine a person with a set of scales in their hand.  I imagine that its been like trying to walk with a full cup of water.  I've been moving slowly and carefully, and developing power and poise over myself, staying aloof to my own shifting moods.  In my terms, this inner power is going to be vitally important if my Hermit's return is going to go well.

 

If the strength that I have gained in seclusion is not enough or if it turns out that I am only strong when I hide away, then I will lose the balance of the scales and things will turn out badly.

 

Yes, I have found the Tarot Archetypes derived from the date of birth very descriptive of every person I did this kind of reading for. 

I have been sharing your words with my wife, and we are both astonished at how closely the Hermit resembles me.  I am like the living cliche of the Hermit!  So, we tried the same with her according to you method and we got nothing of any real meaning.  This made me wonder why people respond so differently to things like the tarot and I started another thread on this theme.  I'm wondering whether spiritual practice somehow reveals, or brings to the forefront those aspects of our selves that are in line with the oracles.

 

All the best and thanks for everything

[Michael Sternbach]

Thank you Nikolai for another great reply.

 

Your new thread

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38521-tarot-i-ching-etc-why-are-some-so-hot-for-it-some-left-so-cold/

 

is very interesting. I will participate as far as my time allows me to.

 

Talking about your wife's cards, if you would post or PM me her date of birth, I would be happy to give it a try.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

I was born at 5:30am on 05/31/76 east coast...can you do mine too!? Please please! I do something for you back of course!

 

Like...?

[Nikolai1]

Talking about your wife's cards, if you would post or PM me her date of birth, I would be happy to give it a try. 

Thank you! - its 24 March 1981

[Nungali]

Interesting that both my birth date and birth name make me a 5...yeah, I had a crazy birthday...lots of entheogens, sex, music and dancing...no cake though..

 

 

What ? No cake !         

 

 

- Man ... I still have flashbacks to my 21st birthday party    

 

 

[Nungali]

Unless of course the Golden Dawn theory regarding the Trumps VIII and XI would actually be correct, because then Songtsan's new year of life, expressive of the number 8, would obviously be characterized by "Lust" (or "Strength" in the Rider Waite deck). (A funny reversal of the question to Nikolai1 btw - that's why I got confused about your birthdays.)

 

So which one is it going to be, Songtsan: Are you getting ready to seclude yourself in a monastery in order to meditate and purify yourself, or gearing up for wild orgies?

 

Why which ?  I can see him as a monk in the Order of the Friars of St. Francis of Wycombe.     

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club

[Michael Sternbach]

sometimes I would like to be somewhat more usual...I was once told that I'm a triple Sagittarius, and to let my horoscope be cast by someone who was really good at it, I never did  

 

Wow... Do you look something like this?

 

 

shhhh, snakes everywhere, inside and outside.

I've always been attracted to snakes ( and lizards, and the last years salamanders, beautiful little beasties, able to live both in the water and in the air, they live in my garden(pond)

 

Among other lizards, I sometimes see blindworms in my garden - a really misleading name, as they are limbless reptiles that look a lot like snakes, and while I am not sure if their eyes are blue, they are anything but blind. I was surprised to learn that they live to an age of 30 years and more.

 

The bird on the downleftside? what is she called. It reminds me of eh...some ( christian?)  symbol of (mother)love, she is picking at her own heart until she bleeds?? But i do not remember the name, not even in dutch.

 

As you have found out meanwhile, it's a pelican, and we will get back to it shortly.

 

The hermit is somewhat familiar to me, though all the cards i know are from this deck

 

 

Not surprising. The Rider Waite Tarot is still the most popular deck for some reason.

 

Your cards stir something in me, I'll have a long look at them and sleep on it, Then you'll hear more from me.

 

Great how you meditated with the cards and arrived at your own insights. I wanted to hear them, that's why I limited myself to giving certain "key words".

 

thanks for doing this,

Bes

 

It's my pleasure.

[Michael Sternbach]

thanks all for responding, i've been giving it 'thought' . Meaning that first I've been looking at the pictures, then i slept, and now I've bee doing some reading for myself.

 

You all know far more of it then I do, so i'll give my associations which give me some more insight in the 'what/ whuffor' of my life

 

I found a nice place to look at the thoth-cards in big pictures where the details have a better visibility. It surprises me that the cards 8 ( strength or lust) and 11 ( justice or adjustment) have changed places in the order.

 

That's in fact the order which you generally see in the older decks (i.e. the Tarot of Marseille). It was altered by the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn mostly for astrological reasons. Waite, and with him many others, followed the GD's revision, whereas Crowley and followers of the French school rejected it and retained the original order.

 

So did I for the most part until now, but some recent encounters, not least on this thread, are seriously making me question...

 

It may interest especially Nungali that Crowley in fact uses the GD's revised numerical order in column XIV of the Liber 777. As its publication preceded the Thoth deck, Crowley may simply have changed his mind at some stage.

 

I'll respond to your posts one by one, that way I can slowly unravel my own associations with it.

 

And I wanna thank Nikolai, who's not complaining ( seemingly) that his thread is going far offtopic

 

But it keeps coming back to it!

 

Thanks noonespecial,

 

I read this yesterday so that gave me time to look at some more pictures. And indeed it isthe pelican, symbol seemingly buried deep into my mind.

 

and this is the picture that rose up in me

 

 

https://edmundsiderius.wordpress.com/2012/05/02/emblemata-an-iconographic-overflowing/

 

interesting i find this part of the text: <<While this is not too far from the generally accepted iconography of the pelican there are others that diverge significantly from this symbolic norm. One emblem in particular “Pelikan baut sein Nest auf dem Boden” Pelican: builds its nest on the ground. This diverges from almost every other pelican emblem, only preserving the nest in its symbolism. Rather than espousing the virtues of self-sacrifice, as even the more secular emblems of its kind tend to, it warns against hubris, citing the placement of the pelican’s nest (which itself varies from emblem to emblem).>>

 

The warning against hubris touches me/ is relevant....also this comes from a germanspeaking place, close to my birthground.

 

Not to say that your associations are "wrong", but the pelican on the Empress card does emphasize the themes of motherly nurturing and self-sacrifice (just like your picture above).

 

I did not read the link that you gave, but the mentioning of sea and salt resonates with me, thank you. For me the sea is like the living womb that gave birth to all of us.

 

Nice association. The watery part of our blood has a chemical constitution that is the same like the primordial ocean.

 

Everything that comes up seems to have sides and dual character.

 

That depends on what side you are looking at it from.

 

looking on the web i found this image

 

 

with this text:

 

<<18° - Knight Rose Croix: This degree teaches that, in reality, what causes us to be  immortal is affection; is love. Only if one loves is he  conscious that he lives, and that he therefore loves life. As Masons, we should practice virtue that it may produce  fruit. We should have faith in God, mankind and  ourselves. And we should be loving men. Masonry teaches that, so long as a man is loved, so long as he is remembered with love; he continues living in this way even in his grave. And a brother who conveys this image  and this message >>

 

 

 

There is a 'problem' with this...

 

Many a woman ( and men too, i think) is taught to love and to give unconditionally. But when this giving occurs without a healthy base, the giver gets depleted of her own resources, she becomes totally empty of love, of anything. This because she hadn't learned. wasn't taught that she needs to love herself, care for herself so that she able to give away love etc. to others.

In wich case the symbol of the pelican begets a different meaning, that of the mundane person, giving until she dies. Without being able to replenish herself.

 

At the root of this, is a closed heart.

 

the saying: " Love yourself like your brother" pops up.

But also the chinese proverb: the wise woman waters her own garden first.

 

Being an "Empress" at the soul level makes various kinds of Love a big theme for you to deal with, anyway.

 

The thoth cards have a very different quality than the rider-waite deck which is pretty 'romantic in comparison

Thoth is more 'raw' and seems to me filled up with symbolism more, gotta get used to it

 

It's hardly an exaggeration that the Thoth is a manual that comprises all of Aleister Crowley's Magickal knowledge.

 

persona and soul...

persona i will regard as the : what i am ( or should be) in this life on the mundane level. The 'what of me' that radiates out, visible for other people.

 

Great definition.

 

soul..what is soul? it feels  as the inside, the 'what i have to learn' in this life

 

Ditto.

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/crowley/tarot_images/universe.jpg

 

I have been looking at this card a long time, it is indeed true that feeling and being at one with my environment is an important aspect of me. As  a child i could merge so well in nature that i was not to be found if i didn't want to. Also i didn't loose my way, nature beings always helped me. But on another level, this image indeed speaks of more.

 

The woman stands with her right foot on the head of the snake. Together i can see they form a lemniscate, they are in an infinite dance with each-other. They dance in the circle of the universe, with a background of greenery which i feel represents mother earth. The head of the woman is enclosed by a light square, this reminds me of something out of the secret of the golden flower. 

eh..something like the square thumb in the square foot. Thereby meaning the forehead center in the field of the head ( or something...)

the way her head is shaped seems to point to some brain structure..i dunno, no clear association there.

 

The symbolism of the cards is the topic of endless top-heavy debates. There is nothing wrong with starting out with an intuitive take on the symbols, and I like your associations.

 

downside there is a houselike structure, like humanmade

 

Although that's really nothing humanmade, but a representation of the periodic system of the chemical elements. As these are the "building blocks" of the physical world, your house association makes sense though.

 

the four heads around the picture I seem to remember as having to do something with the four gospels, but the association i have is that of the four sides of the compass.

 

They are the four Cherubim that appear in several Biblical texts. They represent the four fixed signs of the zodiac Taurus (the bull), Leo (the lion), Scorpio (the eagle as its "transformed form), Aquarius (the man), and thus the elements - this time, the good old .Aristotelian ones. They are  associated both with the four evangelists and the "four winds" blowing from the four cardinal directions.

 

Motherhood has been very important and draining to me. It's finished now and i am free to tread my own path. Love beauty and creativity....somewhere in me, there is a well that should give these qualities. I associate this with the balance between male and female in me. Now I may learn to be female, and thereby fulfilling the meaning of this card.

 

Right. The integration of the internal gender polarity is certainly also a theme of this card, especially as it connects the sephiroth Chockmah and Binah on the Tree of Life, or the primordial male and female principles. This is symbolical of Love bridging the polarities, both externally and internally.

 

Noonespecial gave me this text:

<<She is Binah, Understanding, the Sanctifying Intelligence, termed “the foundation of Primordial Wisdom,” because Divine Wisdom proceeds from that perfect understanding of Itself (REFLECTIVE) and of Its power through which Spirit purifies and completes all its creations. This purifying power is associated with Water (represented by a stream and pool in the background of the picture), and Binah, as the “root of Water,” corresponds to the Great Sea –Prakriti, Aphrodite, Mare – Mary. She is also the Salt (THE BODY) which is the active principle of that Sea {UNCONSCIOUS/PRIMA MATERIA}. ~Paul Foster Case>>

 

this is more than i dare to think of... i never wanted more of life than a partner and a family...

 

Thus speaketh The Empress!

 

looking at the card i see the pelican, on which i already commented. Two sliver moons, for me representing the female and the circular balance. The endless spiral that life is. Her green skirt is the green of mother earth.

 

It's the typical colour of Venus in esoteric terms. But it could represent vegetation and nature at another level - not least, Venus belongs to the spring sign Taurus.

 

She has the blue lotus holding at her breast. I gather that to mean that compassion is balanced with wisdom. It interest me that her headdress is the same as that of the priestess of the rider-waite deck, that seems to support my idea of compassion balanced by wisdom

 

This crown of Isis is also shown on The High Priestess in the Thoth deck, FYI.

 

 

do I understand well that my annual card of last year was adjustment?

 

Amazingly, this brings up the 8/11 or Adjustment/Lust question the third time in a row now!

 

You tell me, please: Was your last year one of seeking your balance and center, or characterized more by immersing yourself in joyful experiences?

 

When i was a young girl, 11 years, one of my sisters let me look at the rider-waite deck. She told me to choose the three cards that i felt the most attraction to...one of those cards was the hermit. Much later, housecleaning, my son laid his hands on my deck...i've  always kept it, but after my 18th  never used anymore. I told my son to be careful with them and look at them. He chose the hermit as the most attractive card...even made a drawing of it, even though drawing was something he abhorred.

 

And it is a fitting card for this year, i'm struggling with loneliness even more than in the rest of my life. but on a new/other level.

 

I like the picture, he's surrounded by corn, which will turn to gold by his own light. The three headed dog seems to me the symbol of death, the dying of a part of me that is no longer needed 

 

I also see a spermlike thingy...something that is going to be born...

 

The Book of Thoth gives among this card's divinatory meanings "secret impulse from within; practical plans derived accordingly". I associate that with the spermatozoon.

 

and, a snake, encircling a clear golden light 

 

Technically, the snake is encircling the Orphic Egg that the Universe has hatched from. But let's not be overly pedantic, I imagine that as a Fabergé egg.

 

thank you Michael, this was a worthwhile experience

 

Thank you too BES, for your elaborate replies.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

Why which ?  I can see him as a monk in the Order of the Friars of St. Francis of Wycombe.     

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club

 

Or in the Abbey of Thelema.

[Nikolai1]

Hi all,

 

No worries about all the tarot stuff - its fascinating!.  In my mind its not off-topic anyway because it raises a lot of the same questions as the 11:11 stuff.  On 11:11 I found this article which I think  is pretty good:

 

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2009/02/1111/

 

It's the way your eyes are drawn to the 11.11, the way in which your head turns to see it that is so convincing to those who experience it, and separates them from being sceptics.

 

I'm really interested in the difference between the sceptic and the believer in such things as 11:11, and divination - so I have a question for Michael:

 

My wife was struck by all the stuff on the Hermit, but still saw it as coincidental.  In her words: "Are you seriously saying that all people born on August 23rd 1976 are intensely searching Hermits like you?

 

Michael (and anyone else), how do you answer this question?

[blue eyed snake]

<<Amazingly, this brings up the 8/11 or Adjustment/Lust question the third time in a row now!

 

You tell me, please: Was your last year one of seeking your balance and center, or characterized more by immersing yourself in joyful experiences?>>

 

definitely the adjustment card, no doubt at all. At  my 50th birthday my world turned upsidedown and insideout ..so balance seeking was badly needed.

 

as an interesting aside, i can tell you that the year i divorced , or better, decided to divorce was  the year where by this counting i had the empress as yearcard 

 

so you just count them on.

eh, what happens to the fool in the counting?

 

 

 

[Nikolai1]

eh, what happens to the fool in the counting?

No 22! I'm becoming quite the expert!

[Nikolai1]

Michael - I've been thinking more about this 8 and 11 issue.  I've noticed that when people call the card Lust they talk about in a certain way (enthusiasm, passion etc9.  When they talk about the same card with the same picture but call it Strength it seems to be all about fortitude over our inner self, demons etc.

 

Two quite different narratives! I still don't resonate with the passion bit, but the stregnth bit I do a lot...and the picture of the lion being tamed is of particular resonance because lions often appear to me in dreams as a feared object.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi all,

 

No worries about all the tarot stuff - its fascinating!.  In my mind its not off-topic anyway because it raises a lot of the same questions as the 11:11 stuff.  On 11:11 I found this article which I think  is pretty good:

 

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2009/02/1111/

 

It's the way your eyes are drawn to the 11.11, the way in which your head turns to see it that is so convincing to those who experience it, and separates them from being sceptics.

 

I'm really interested in the difference between the sceptic and the believer in such things as 11:11, and divination - so I have a question for Michael:

 

My wife was struck by all the stuff on the Hermit, but still saw it as coincidental.  In her words: "Are you seriously saying that all people born on August 23rd 1976 are intensely searching Hermits like you?

 

Michael (and anyone else), how do you answer this question?

 

Yes, IMO and IME, every individual born on a certain day belongs to a very broad class who share certain archetypal traits. Archetypes according to Jung have a wide scope of expression. So they will manifest somewhat differently in every individual. It is also likely that they will be seen actualized to different degrees in different people. Despite all that, a skilled reader should be able to recognize the common Archetype connecting all those individuals.

 

Let's try to use your wife's chart as a practical example. Two of her cards are the same like two of Brian's, so their underlying concepts will supposedly be rather central for both of them.

 

I will again describe them in general terms, and we will see how your wife and Brian hopefully can relate to them, each in their own way.

 

In both cases, the Soul Card is Trump I, The Magus. (He is called The Juggler in many old decks.)

 

 

This signifies a multi-faceted individual with several talents easily put to use. The card shows the God Mercury, meaning that these talents will especially pertain to communication in some form. Thus, they also tend to be rather adept at deception.

 

In his very essence, The Magus is about the power to create one's own world in accordance with one's will.

 

Further. the Personality Card is Trump X, Fortune (or The Wheel of Fortune, in other decks).

 

 

These individuals will see life as a constantly changing game. They will take shifting circumstances for granted and even use them to their advantage. Especially if they manage to stand in the middle of the wheel as per The Magus. They may even be "soldiers of fortune", to one degree or another.

 

As it happens, your wife also has Trump VIII as her annual card!!!

 

So the same question goes to her as to all the others so far: Does the current year (since her birthday) seem to be in some way a time for contemplation and reflection, or rather a time for fun and enjoyment of sorts?

 

Edit:

 

Brian, as I mentioned, The Magus and Fortune both apply to you just like they do to Nikolai's wife. By the way, isn't it curious that your birthdays are only one day apart from each other?

 

However, your kind of case is the only one that includes three cards! I will come back to you, the third card and, of course, your annual card shortly.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nikolai1]

Thanks Michael

 

 It is also likely that they will be seen actualized to different degrees in different people. 

This is what interests me the most.  Is our archetype within us but somehow obscured by our more conditioned everyday selfhood?

 

I think so.  I think the highly conditioned person is an arbitrary amalgamation of all the thoughts, opinions, behaviours of the time and place they have grown up in.  Their archetypal nature is hidden by the noise of all the people that are influencing them. Individuation is the process of stripping all this away, and allowing a deeper essential selfhood reveal itself.  It was always there, but its influence was weak.  With individuation we become conscious of our archetypal nature, and it is this that allows us to see and recognise the meaning behind things like the Tarot. If we don't do this for ourselves, then it will require a very skilful and intuitive Tarot Reader to discern the hidden truths.

 

But our archetypal selves are not our deepest selves.  The archetypal self, in my case the Hermit, is more like a spiritual law or pattern that we notice we are following.  In some ways it is a replacement for everyday conformity to society. We notice that our body in time and space is conforming to an ancient pattern known only to the seers. Obviously this applies very much to the I Ching, which has constantly intrigued me how it can give such relevant responses. But who we actually, and deeply are, is the witness that notices our other self and the lawfulness of his behaviour.

 

To discover our archetypal nature is to discover a meaningful dimension to our existence that before we quite literally did not see.  

 

I have found this whole conversation deeply rewarding, and lots of things have become clear that I have wondered about.  Thank you to everyone participating.

 

Michael - my wife is away but I'll discuss it with her and give you some feedback

Edited June 3, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Michael Sternbach]

 

 

definitely the adjustment card, no doubt at all. At my 50th birthday my world turned upsidedown and insideout ..so balance seeking was badly needed.

 

as an interesting aside, i can tell you that the year i divorced , or better, decided to divorce was the year where by this counting i had the empress as yearcard

 

so you just count them on.

I am not quite sure what you mean by "just counting them on". There will be a break in the cards' numerical prgression every once in so many years.

 

Surely, your decision to get divorced would seem to better match Trump XII, The Hanged Man, than it's numerical equivalent Trump III - with the actual divorce conceivably following in the next year of your life, symbolized by Trump XIII or Death.

 

Well, just to make sure that we are on the same page, my method for calculating annual cards is:

 

• Month of birth + day of birth + year of last birthday
• Add up the four digits of the result
• If the new result is larger than 22, proceed by adding up its two digits

Unlike two-digit cards derived from dates of birth, this card (if larger than 9) is usually not further reduced to an additional one-digit card. However, I have experimented with this approach, and I conclude that the theme of the lower numerical equivalent tends to manifest itself too during the year, as the cards are some kind of harmonics to each other.

 

Thus, a year that is "ruled" by Trump XIV ("Art" or "Temperance", depending on the deck) will at once manifest traits of Trump V or The Hierophant, in my observation. I speculate that the reverse may hold true as well.

 

eh, what happens to the fool in the counting?

No 22! I'm becoming quite the expert!

I would agree to this. There are different views among Tarot readers regarding the numerical value of The Fool here, but imo, this view is consistent with him standing at both the beginning and end of the Major Arcana, for after all, the Tarot is circular ("Rota"). A conclusion in keeping also with my personal experience.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

Or in the Abbey of Thelema.

 

 

I would not wish that upon anyone ! 

 

I seen a bunch of half arsed stoned hippies get together a better communal  'magical abbey' situation than that .  

 

  Re the ;  " Crowley in fact uses the GD's revised numerical order in column XIV of theLiber 777. As its publication preceded the Thoth deck, Crowley may simply have changed his mind at some stage. "

 

That occurs quiet a bit, especially in some tables and lists that were drawn up earlier, they were sourced for the book on tarot but were written or complied earlier than the writing of the text, by then he developed extended or changed a few ideas. Amongst some of those snippetts of tables are some key factors of the system exposed .....  (like the attribution of some court cards to 'normal astrology'  - considered signs  nowadays -  but also some include constellations off the ecliptic and hence outside of the 'zodiac' which IMO is a strong argument for a sidereal system based on constellational astrology .... with a twist.

 

As you probably know, people will argue against me on this .... but they just have not read the originating GD papers about the type of astrology originally used ... nowadays its all considered some type of modern tropical sun based stuff with a geocentric basis  and ' planet and sign  annotated decanic minors are considered to have the same energy as modern astrological (e.g.)   ' Venus in Cancer ' .  

[Nungali]

My wife was struck by all the stuff on the Hermit, but still saw it as coincidental.  In her words: "Are you seriously saying that all people born on August 23rd 1976 are intensely searching Hermits like you?

 

Michael (and anyone else), how do you answer this question?

 

Well, the obvious answer is 

 

of course not ! 

[Nungali]

It may interest especially Nungali that Crowley in fact uses the GD's revised numerical order in column XIV of the Liber 777. As its publication preceded the Thoth deck, Crowley may simply have changed his mind at some stage.

 

Mhe ... that happens all over the place, especially in the Book of Thoth. I think many of the tables and charts were from earlier sources ( 'The Equinox' s )  and patched into the Book of Thoth after the text was written, between the two hic ideas changed or were developed. Bad editing in a few cases, and also a few bad cases of 'smearing'  ( check the astrological correspondences for the courts in the tables - not texts.  Cards like Prince of Cups .... if you dont already know what I mean ... get ready for a surprise and a follow up realisation that the whole system is not as most see it ( even the Thoth experts )    

 

 

Although that's really nothing humanmade, but a representation of the periodic system of the chemical elements. As these are the "building blocks" of the physical world, your house association makes sense though.

 

The 'New Jerusalem' is shown as the advent of science - the new 'Parthenon' constructed by the 'periodic table'. 

[Nungali]

No 22! I'm becoming quite the expert!

 

People stick him all over the place.

 

I agree with some that he should be   0

 

The centre of the circle of trumps much like the Sun is the centre of the zodiac, they are all experiences waiting for the Sun / Fool.

 

So I put the Fool at the centre of the circle of trumps.  After he becomes a bit adept at this, like, experience and its cycles become a joy of expression and a dance of bliss of the forces of creation.

 

Like in this card

 

 

which could nearly be its polarity

 

(PS , Tarotpop sucks ... you want an image of this card and if you type in ' Universe tarot Card' you get 99% pics of Waite's World card and similar      

 

<goes into esoteric shop >    "One Thoth tarot Deck please."

 

"You mean one Waite deck?"

 

No. one Thoth deck.

 

I think you want this deck <pulls out Waite deck>

 

No, I want a Thoth tarot deck !

 

This is better. 

 

Thoth ....    T ...  H  ...  O ...  

 

W  ...A  ... I   ..  . 

 

 

[Nungali]

Michael - I've been thinking more about this 8 and 11 issue.  I've noticed that when people call the card Lust they talk about in a certain way (enthusiasm, passion etc9.  When they talk about the same card with the same picture but call it Strength it seems to be all about fortitude over our inner self, demons etc.

 

Two quite different narratives! I still don't resonate with the passion bit, but the stregnth bit I do a lot...and the picture of the lion being tamed is of particular resonance because lions often appear to me in dreams as a feared object.

 

When I used to do Tarot workshops, I would get people to have a session on the difference between the two (and some other Thoth cards that are different from the mainstream ) and do comparisons. 

 

Many seemingly disparate elements are due to  too narrow a vision of what card  'Lust' relates to - mostly due to it being retitled.

 

One of the things I like about Strength (although I can also see it in 'Lust' card ) is ... normal brute strength will not be able to hold a lions mouth open ... here we talk of different strength ... have a look at it, that aint Hercules there !  ( think - lion 'whisperer' and the type of 'feminine' strength one uses as 'ki' ) .

[Nikolai1]

Well, the obvious answer is 

 

of course not ! 

Yes but why not? 

[Michael Sternbach]

Michael - I've been thinking more about this 8 and 11 issue.  I've noticed that when people call the card Lust they talk about in a certain way (enthusiasm, passion etc9.  When they talk about the same card with the same picture but call it Strength it seems to be all about fortitude over our inner self, demons etc.

 

Two quite different narratives! I still don't resonate with the passion bit, but the stregnth bit I do a lot...and the picture of the lion being tamed is of particular resonance because lions often appear to me in dreams as a feared object.

 

The energy that the different versions of the card are speaking of may be the same. How it is dealt with depends on the outlook of the author, however. It is not surprising that Crowley would advocate a wild ride on the "Lion" of one's animalistic instincts. Whereas a medieval/'Germanistic' deck like the Swiss 1JJ Tarot seems to emphasize dominating and taming the Lion by "manly virtue". A Zen approach in contrast with a Tantric approach, you might say.

 

 

But yes, this Trump can be seen as representing vital force in general. It doesn't always mean sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll. However, it does talk of enjoying one's strength one way or another.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Michael Sternbach