My interesting email conversation

[Apech]

Nickolai1,

 

In a sense I am rather impressed that the Church of England still care whether people believe in God or Jesus.  It has seemed almost optional of late - and more important to worry about women bishops and gay priests.  I am a Brit myself and my parents are agnostic/atheist scientists, the only religious education I received was at the hands of state schooling.  However I think perhaps the sticking point in your correspondence is the bit about Jesus not being unique.  I think they probably would have accommodated an interest in Buddhism and yoga but not the equivalence. There is after all a famous TV vicar who went round the world trying every type of religion.

 

What I don't quite understand is why you approached the CoE in the first place.  Do you consider yourself to be basically Christian?  Do you find being a vicar an attractive future for yourself?  If you want to extend kindness to others you could try  the charity/voluntary sector ... or just use your teaching childcare experience to continue down that route.

[Apech]

Lo!

 

I just popped in form your other thread.  You seem quite interested in sin (and its non-existence).  Without wishing to presume I feel it might be good to get back to more zazen.  God can be very confusing I think, so can Jesus and all those guys.  I'm not sure Paul ever really recovered from falling off that donkey.

 

Good luck though and best wishes.

[laughingblade]

Joining a church seems anathema to any kind of spiritual practice.

 

If OP wanted to *study*, rather than work, the University of Glouceseter has well-regarded degree course in Philosophy and Religion, and an MA in same which is mostly online and part-time. Might suit?

[Nikolai1]

Hi Apech

 

What I don't quite understand is why you approached the CoE in the first place.  Do you consider yourself to be basically Christian? 

No I was born and raised an atheist. My mother used to say 'I'd rather my children get into drugs than religion!'. Now I consider myself completely above the distinction of atheism vs theism.  

 

When we realise the truth, the feeling of being, the feeling of identity doesn't go away - it stays.  From the perspective of the Ego this new state is God, from the perspective of the new state, the ego is part of the same.  God is God, I am God, I am I are all the same statements.

 

I now feel that I have a profound personal understanding of what Jesus tried to teach, but I do not worship him nor elevate him, also I am uninterested in the everyday Church life of cake sales and bell-ringing.

 

Do you find being a vicar an attractive future for yourself? 

I would like to find a way of teaching, very much.  I believe that there are probably many Christians who are crying out for a vibrant, living and hopeful spirituality.  I simply want people to realise that finding God/higher selfhood is the highest pleasure and a very real possibility in life.  It upsets me that organised religion seems to block those with lofty hopes.

 

If you want to extend kindness to others you could try  the charity/voluntary sector ... or just use your teaching childcare experience to continue down that route.

There's a lot more to being a teacher than juts being kind.  In fact, many who don't really understand the heights of truth simply settle for being nice to one another.  Not dissing this, but there's a lot more to it than that.

 

What I don't quite understand is why you approached the CoE in the first place. 

 

.I actually did it out of interest of what they would say.  it is not a serious plan of mine. I'm like you though, I though they would give me quite an equivocal reply...'Maybe you need to talk to your vicar, maybe you need to allow time for your faith to deepen, we are a broad church with many different appraoches to God etc'

 

But no, it was a flat rejection wasn't it? Maybe they have more mettle than people think? But it is still an inappropriate rigidity.  The CofE is a dying institution, in a time when spirituality is booming.  They need to open up to new and original religious thinkers.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Jetsun]

Anyone can set themselves up as a teacher, just book a room and advertise you are doing meetings or Satsangs, then see if anyone turns up.

[Nikolai1]

Jetsun,

Anyone can set themselves up as a teacher, just book a room and advertise you are doing meetings or Satsangs, then see if anyone turns up. 

I don't have much experience of Satsang, but I have read many books based on conversations in satsang e.g. Nirmala. What strikes me is how spiritually mature it is. It seems to be that those drawn to Advaita are already well on the way themselves, and just fine-tuning stuff. I'd be interested in whether you agree with this?

 

It's the desperate and the alienated I want to reach! And I think a lot of the desperate in the UK may find themselves visiting Church, or talking to their vicar, and getting in return a very unsatisfying experience.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Nikolai1

[idiot_stimpy]

If it was so unsatisfying, they would leave and search for more answers like I did. ☺

[Jetsun]

Jetsun,

I don't have much experience of Satsang, but I have read many books based on conversations in satsang e.g. Nirmala. What strikes me is how spiritually mature it is. It seems to be that those drawn to Advaita are already well on the way themselves, and just fine-tuning stuff. I'd be interested in whether you agree with this?

 

It's the desperate and the alienated I want to reach! And I think a lot of the desperate in the UK may find themselves visiting Church, or talking to their vicar, and getting in return a very unsatisfying experience.

In the UK its mostly older people who go to church to be honest, I would say getting through to them is very difficult. I don't know of any young people who would turn to a vicar to discuss issues. The Church may be an avenue to do charity work or service though. The modern version of that role is a councillor or therapist I guess.

 

I would say that generally those who go to Advaita meetings are quite mature, although I do see many people leave half way through so not everyone who goes gets it straight away. Yet most who go are still looking for guidance, if you are qualified. There are lots of pitfalls and ego traps if you set yourself up as a teacher though, so I doubt it is easy. Maybe write a book first to see if what you are putting out resonates with people.

 

What do you want to get through to people for?

[Nikolai1]

I don't know of any young people who would turn to a vicar to discuss issues. 

Yes, because vicars don't speak the spiritual language of the young. Considering I'm no Christian I almost surprise myself, but it does seem a big shame that the powerful Christian message is lost because of the weak watery middle of the road nature of the Church. Everything you need is there, within the Christian tradition.  The writings of Walter Hilton, Meister Eckhart, St Augustine, John of the Cross render the Ramana Maharshis of this world an unnecessary repetition. There are enough instructions on mental prayer to have come out of the monastic orders, to render Zazen unneeded.

 

But it's all just getting lost by the Church, so it seems.  And so true seekers, go abroad to find what they could have got at home. Don't get me wrong: I think its wonderful to have core spiritual truths to be confirmed and validated by going overseas.  But what happens is that we think our home traditions are spiritually barren when they actually aren't.

 

I would say that generally those who go to Advaita meetings are quite mature, although I do see many people leave half way through so not everyone who goes gets it straight away.

I like to listen to the BATGAP interviews with Rick Archer and he often makes sarcastic reference to the Advaita Police:  those who consider any dualistic splits like person and God to be some kind of heresy.  Maybe there is some of that going on? I think for myself, I came to Advaita quite late so I always understood that the Non-Duality transcends both duality and non-duality.  I guess this can be hard to understand at first.

 

What do you want to get through to people for? 

I guess I'm really seeing in my life the beautiful fruits of the religious life and I want to share them somehow.  In a year or so, I'm going to have to start earning again, so I'm wondering what kind of work is best for me.  I think I'll find it hard to go back to working in some office. I'd feel like I'm wasted there.

[Nikolai1]

Hi Jetsun, just one more question?

 

In the UK its mostly older people who go to church to be honest,

Is this because these are the only ones remaining from a dying tradition.  Or will today's forty year olds, who don't go to Church now, start going when they reach 70?  Is Church like taking up lawn bowling?

[Jetsun]

In terms of the real Christian message there are people out there spreading it, but mostly not in the Church. I went to see Francis Bennett last week who is a former Trappist Monk who is now giving non-dual Satsang type meetings but with a more Christian flavour. I found it very powerful. He says one of the best books on how to approach the non-dual stuff is "The Cloud of Unknowing" written by an unknown monk in the Middle Ages. I do think there is a growing appetite for a Christian perspective on the path, but I don't think the Church will ever provide it.

[Jetsun]

Hi Jetsun, just one more question?

 

Is this because these are the only ones remaining from a dying tradition. Or will today's forty year olds, who don't go to Church now, start going when they reach 70? Is Church like taking up lawn bowling?

Some people may start going, but my parents generation aren't as indoctrinated as my grandparents so it won't be as many and those that do will probably be for the social aspect. England is probably the most atheistic country in the world, most religious and spiritual things are thought of as make believe by the majority of people.

[Nikolai1]

England is probably the most atheistic country in the world, most religious and spiritual things are thought of as make believe by the majority of people. 

When the question is asked, 64% of Brits call themselves Christian, projected to fall to 45% by 2050.

 

Perhaps people answer out of habit, but are atheistic in their heart and live their lives this way.

[Apech]

When the question is asked, 64% of Brits call themselves Christian, projected to fall to 45% by 2050.

 

Perhaps people answer out of habit, but are atheistic in their heart and live their lives this way.

 

 

There's cultural religion of course.  Not quite just habit but more that the church is an integral part of people's lives i.e. what you do on Sunday morning.

 

Some one suggested to me recently that religion only really starts when a lineage dies.  That is an inspired teacher like Jesus teaches and this is passed on person to person for a few generations but slowly peters out.  When it ends the religion as religion starts. Of course it can be renewed by realised teachers, contemplatives and those who receive revelation.  But the trouble is it is those people who most frighten the orthodox.  The loss or diminution of contemplatives is the reason for the decline in the church as they are the life blood of its renewal.

[Nikolai1]

Jesus teaches and this is passed on person to person for a few generations but slowly peters out.

Or, Peter's out in Jesus' case

 

 

Some one suggested to me recently that religion only really starts when a lineage dies.  That is an inspired teacher like Jesus teaches and this is passed on person to person for a few generations but slowly peters out.  When it ends the religion as religion starts. Of course it can be renewed by realised teachers, contemplatives and those who receive revelation.  But the trouble is it is those people who most frighten the orthodox.  The loss or diminution of contemplatives is the reason for the decline in the church as they are the life blood of its renewal.

Yes, I agree with all this. Organised religion is a substitute for direct understanding. Those who don't know, believe.

[Apech]

Or, Peter's out in Jesus' case

 

 

Yes, I agree with all this. Organised religion is a substitute for direct understanding. Those who don't know, believe.

 

 

LOL!  

 

Oddly though Christian thinking is very pernicious.  I have noticed many people who have gone to eastern traditions Buddhism, Vedanta and so on who are really still thinking like Christians.  I wonder if this is due to the Faith vs, Intellect split which happened progressively from the Middle Ages.  So people are taught to use critical reasoning when thinking about the world, but faith/belief only when looking at spiritual matters.  It has the effect of reserving part of the mind/brain free from examination.  What the eastern traditions provide is a kind of rational basis for contemplation and inner experience which has been more or less cast out in the west by the 'it's subjective' argument of science.  But still I observe that many Buddhists like to behave cringingly like Christians abasing themselves before masters and deities.  I attributed this to cultural confusion before but I am beginning to think that it is a conceptual imprint which is very hard to shake.

 

Some so called secular Buddhists go so far as to more or less reject Buddhism in favour of some kind of neuroscience.  Some Taoists treat the TTC and other texts like Bible studies while to the Chinese philosophers the text is the 'dregs' of wisdom. Advaita Vedanta is so popular particularly because the equation God = Brahman and Atman = soul is so easy to make.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Apech

[Nikolai1]

But still I observe that many Buddhists like to behave cringingly like Christians abasing themselves before masters and deities. I attributed this to cultural confusion before but I am beginning to think that it is a conceptual imprint which is very hard to shake.

For me it represents a kind of middle phase in spiritual development, and is universally seen in all peoples, and is also numerically the most common attitude to the transcendent.  The transcendent is recognised, but only in externals. whether it be people, places, things.  It is the idolatrous phase.  

 

Going beyond this means recognising the divinity in self, as a constant inner presence.  Or, to put it another way, it is seeing the stamp of divinity in all of creation and your whole life is lived in worship, or 'ceaseless prayer' St Paul puts it.

 

I attributed this to cultural confusion before but I am beginning to think that it is a conceptual imprint which is very hard to shake.

The habit of conceptualising is for me the habit that is hard to shake.  We may awake to the reality of the trasncendent, but still wish to designate it into 'this' and not 'that'.

 

Some so called secular Buddhists go so far as to more or less reject Buddhism in favour of some kind of neuroscience. 

Don't get me started on this! Science in general gets far too much attention in the spiritual life.

[blue eyed snake]

I find this tread begins to hold some interest to me.

 

about christianity, the basics of that are so deeply ingrained in people who grew up in it. Even when they were raised in an atheistic/agnostic/ scientific family.

 

In summer, during my vacation I meet a young ( end thirty) priest/pastor from some protestant church, nice guy with a nice family. remarkable kids...especially the eldest, school calls him a problemchild... but i saw a very special child, emanating an aura, literally... we'll hear from this little boy i'm sure. so i had long talks with his mum also. sustaining her in her choices for the little boy. " you're doing it right, doesn't matter that people think you are making crazy choices for your sonny, You feel what he needs and you try to give that to him, good!

 

But this young pastor told me he was irked about young people seeking spirituality etc in the eastern ways. he thought, it is all in the words of jesus, must be there, should be there. And in Holland traditional church-going is fast falling but lately, the last 5 years i think, there is a trend in relatively new and/or evangelical sects. and churches renewing themselves from the inside. And those are growing.

 

Last year i found a little booklet of Elisabeth Dinissen, working with Enomiyo Lassalle, her booklet gave nice convergence between the use of zazen and christianity. I don't know wheter some of their books are in english, what i've read is dutch, and there is a meditation centrum in Bad schonbrunn, germany 

 

http://www.lassalle-haus.org/

 

But I don't know whether you speak german.

 

My qigong teacher is, not only being daoist, amazing energy-worker/healer but also a christian. And he seems to have found a very stable balance in it. Also telling about things that he sees as " different words for the same concepts" ( and now my knowledge of english is not enough to really convey well what he means by that) maybe: different concepts for the some underlying truths conveys it better.

 

I remeber a session where we talked about jobs. One of us is a surgeon, she came to him because her right wrist was ' stuck' ( meaning she couldn't work anymore...)and she was very sceptical ( like to me  ) ...it's healed now, by qi-healing and exercises, i know she does a special set of exercises for it, just as i have special exercises for my problems. She wanted to stop being a surgeon, but our teacher said, now that you've learned more about how the human body works, stay in your job, you'll be a surgeon with something extra added, that's what we need in this world.

 

And at the same time he was telling the same to me, my education is somewhat like to yours, i'm a child psychologist, after loosing my job because of penny-pinching of the government, i started for myself. 

Since almost 2 years i have been too ill ( CFS) to work, but i will be healed one day and then i have to find income somewhere. The reserves are going the bottom...and i felt/ feel like: i do not want this anymore, just as the surgeon felt that.

 

but now I think, I need to find a way wherein i can make a combination of my formal education and the spiritual insights that are coming to me. letting them merge to something that is wholesome. And when i let them merge in the right way, dao will take care of the moneyproblem...people who need this mix of hard professionality and spirituality, they will find me.

 

And maybe, that is a possibility for you too.

 

Furthermore, reading your other posts...if you don't wanna hear it, just skip over this...

 

you feel out of balance to me, euphoric so to say.

A shrink may be a bridge too far but still...

I wondered whether you get sleep enough btw, with your young baby-daughter.

Me, i would not want a coach, spiritual or otherwise, who hasn't found his balance yet

 

and maybe this post could help to regain some balance

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/37249-the-father-and-son-of-taoist-philosophy/?p=627257

 

wish you well, Bes

 

 

 

[Apech]

For me it represents a kind of middle phase in spiritual development, and is universally seen in all peoples, and is also numerically the most common attitude to the transcendent.  The transcendent is recognised, but only in externals. whether it be people, places, things.  It is the idolatrous phase.  

It was not the act of say,prostrating or bowing and so on that bothered me, and I don't have a problem with people objectifying what they hold to be most high in externals - since really there are no internals or externals (or so I would say).  I prostrate myself having completed the 100,000 for the ngondro.  Its the mental attitude when doing them that bugs me.  If you look at Tibetans for instance they seem to glow and grow with these practices.  They are not abasing themselves in any sense as far as I can see.  Somehow its natural and positive.  But when I see westerners do this there is always a sense of cowering before the most high - principly because they want something or like to feel that making themselves low raises them up.  I don't like this kind of thing.

 

Going beyond this means recognising the divinity in self, as a constant inner presence.  Or, to put it another way, it is seeing the stamp of divinity in all of creation and your whole life is lived in worship, or 'ceaseless prayer' St Paul puts it.

 

The habit of conceptualising is for me the habit that is hard to shake.  We may awake to the reality of the trasncendent, but still wish to designate it into 'this' and not 'that'.

Why do you want to shake it?  Conceptual thought is very useful, in fact an aspect of 'the transcendent' if we are going to be non-dualist.

 

Don't get me started on this! Science in general gets far too much attention in the spiritual life.

 

Nuff said.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Apech

[Lataif]

You might want to read a biography of Alan Watts. 

 

He did what you apparently asked about doing.

 

You can see from his example how it turned out . . .

[dwai]

It was not the act of say,prostrating or bowing and so on that bothered me, and I don't have a problem with people objectifying what they hold to be most high in externals - since really there are no internals or externals (or so I would say).  I prostrate myself having completed the 100,000 for the ngondro.  Its the mental attitude when doing them that bugs me.  If you look at Tibetans for instance they seem to glow and grow with these practices.  They are not abasing themselves in any sense as far as I can see.  Somehow its natural and positive.  But when I see westerners do this there is always a sense of cowering before the most high - principly because they want something or like to feel that making themselves low raises them up.  I don't like this kind of thing.

 

Why do you want to shake it?  Conceptual thought is very useful, in fact an aspect of 'the transcendent' if we are going to be non-dualist.

 

 

Nuff said.

Having been born and grown up in india, as a Hindu, I can say that religion is a way more serious and group activity in the West (when and where it still has relevance). For us, religion was secondary, and provided a way to continue learning our culture and traditions. We had a personal relationship with divinity (through personal deity etc) and a very private one. Even the millions who throng the temples do so on a personal level. There are priests but they are merely a conduit to do the rituals and offerings. 

 

I probably went to a temple at best a 100 times in my entire life. That didn't prevent me from having a spiritual practice. 

 

The 19th century Master of Advaita Vedanta, Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa had suggested that there is a "ladder-like" aspect to  spiritual evolution. We progessively go towards a non-dualist understanding (and not always in a single lifetime). 

 

It took me a long time to understand that even though there is non-dual awakening, there is also no denying the dualistic world. So we have to balance both views...a mature approach is to reconcile both...

[blue eyed snake]

It took me a long time to understand that even though there is non-dual awakening, there is also no denying the dualistic world. So we have to balance both views...a mature approach is to reconcile both...

 

thank you!

[dawei]

When the question is asked, 64% of Brits call themselves Christian, projected to fall to 45% by 2050.

 

Perhaps people answer out of habit, but are atheistic in their heart and live their lives this way.

 

Or maybe they still can't quite accept the alternative yet...

 

Not sure if I missed it here or in another thread... but indulge me

 

Can you name a specific book, person, movement, teaching which you most identify with.. or represents something very similar to what you would like to do.

 

The main reason I ask is that back when I was attracted to Christianity about 25 years ago, the people who I really caught the bug from were not working within the church and their message was much more powerful.

[Rara]

So a bit of background: I'll shortly be returning to my home country, the UK, and this will allow my to resurrect my working life beyond teaching English and looking after children.

 

I'm entering my late thirties, but it is still possible that i could start a traditional career, with at least 30 years of working life ahead. As my overwhelming passion and drive is towards the religious life, I have always wondered whether some form of ministry might be for me.

 

So I wrote the following email to the Church of England careers advice, and was careful to be honest at the outset about my beliefs. Here is what I wrote:

 

This morning the reply came back most promptly:

 

Interesting hey? Does anyone have any thoughts?

yep. You're too far advanced for commercial Christianity/pigeon holing. If you wanna succeed, you will need to start business from the bottom and build it.

 

In language, we call it a 'sect' lol.

[Nungali]

It was not the act of say,prostrating or bowing and so on that bothered me, and I don't have a problem with people objectifying what they hold to be most high in externals - since really there are no internals or externals (or so I would say).  I prostrate myself having completed the 100,000 for the ngondro.  Its the mental attitude when doing them that bugs me.  If you look at Tibetans for instance they seem to glow and grow with these practices.  They are not abasing themselves in any sense as far as I can see.  Somehow its natural and positive.  But when I see westerners do this there is always a sense of cowering before the most high - principly because they want something or like to feel that making themselves low raises them up.  I don't like this kind of thing.

 

Interesting post !   One of the  'fraternal bonds' in one of the more radical 'spiritually anarchistic'  initiatic group's ceremonies state;  

 

my knee bends not in supplication

either to you, nor to another.

 

Yet later there is  kneeling ....   but of two types.  One is a 'bluff' and if one does kneel they are likely to get the response " Get out of here you crawling, pathetic pleader ! "

 

The other type of kneeling seems 'glorified' and is a type of 'adoration' .

 

Supplicate seems to mean ask, entreat or beg,. To me supplicate  -  and the definition example in some dictionaries talks about pleading for one's life. For me this goes along with the angry patriarchal God of fear ... fear the Lord !  A lot has been written about that !  The Lord is angry crawl around and hide yourselves in the cracks of the earth

 

Well, screw that !   ( see what  ' spiritual anarchism  ' will do to you !      )

 

But a  'prayer (or act) of adoration'  is something entirely different.To adore  is worship - acknowledgement of worth.  In a way, one is acknowledging something greater than themselves and looking up to it, this becomes 'uplifting' in a way and 'raises one up'.  Its not quiet like " or like to feel that making themselves low raises them up"  I believe the 'correct magical view' is to place an ideal or 'target emulation'  'up' there as something to achieve, that will 'automatically' draw you up ... a bit like a sprinter may hold the record up there above him, he cannot achieve it yet, but that is what he aims for.

 

 

I know if I adore and appreciate and love nature, I am in a very good mood and uplifted and glowing and appreciative.  If I fear nature ...  well, it certainly isnt enjoyable .

 

No wonder the Tibetans, in your experience, were more uplifted and glowing ,,,  they had not been cowering and crawling around in fear ! 

 

Hide thyself in the bowels of the earth, the Lord is upon you  !

 

 - if you dont know where that is, here are directions with all the biblical references about hiding in the earth to prove it   (more Christian wisdom    )

 

http://www.ourhollowearth.com/TheLivingEarth.htm

 

On another level, one can think of it as a relationship  ( and supplication and adoration in religion and spirituality are a reflection of relationship with deity ) ....   I have had a kneeling, pleading, supplicating  'dont leave I will die without you '   'devotee' ....  

 

I have had an adoring appreciating, acknowledging my worth 'devotee' as well     . 

 

I know what I would prefer       

 

 

.... and so should God !        

 

 

[ See; spiritual anarchist ;   I will tell God how to 'fly right'. ] 

 

 

What's that movie where the old man is accosted by the gang , they won't let him pass but he doesnt want to fight, the push him down and tell him to crawl around like a dog ... now he is kneeling on the ground and they are standing over him ... legs apart, groin right near his head  and ... yep ... butt !  wham !  ....

 

   - stupid juvenile bullies ! 

 

 

 

(What on earth is he doing with his left hand  ?  

Edited May 30, 2015 by Nungali