Come gather round people, and hear the Good News!

[Nungali]

I was hoping it wouldn't come off that way, and would just come off as being about not misquoting teachers.

 

 

I hear they like to dance to this tune...

 

 

That was rather theological too  ...  but I liked them, They can play at my next birthday party   

[Nungali]

So Jesus is a simple case of planned and assisted suicide!

 

Man, this whole website will burn in hell!

 

Man, are you  off to a flying start !

 

usually, on a website, when I talk to a Christian, after a few pages and a few tricky questions from posters they start sending (declaring) people will burn in hell .... you got that out of the way pretty quickly.

 

... But  ... sending the whole website to hell ....  on page  2 .....    

[Marblehead]

... start sending (declaring) people will burn in hell .... you got that out of the way pretty quickly.

I spent 20 years in the Army.  I've been through hell.  Really a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

[Nungali]

The Zippers are absolutely fantastic in concert, BTW. I would encourage everyone to take the opportunity to see them if you ever get the chance. (Yeah, I've seen them a few times -- my favorite was a New Year's Eve show...)

 

This version captures them better:

 

 

I am totally converted !  - thank you Brian

[Nungali]

What is a "high biblical scholar" and how would they be any different than "the enlightening ones that are needed to tell us what Jesus was actually referring to"? All such speaking is based upon their relative perspective.

 

Its relative and depends on the size of their 

 

 

 

 

 

But I think some universities in the Mid-West offer a doctorate in  High BS . 

[dawei]

as·cen·sion

(ə-sĕn′shən)

n.

1. The act or process of ascending; ascent.

 

2. Astronomy The rising of a star above the horizon.

 

3.  In Christianity, the bodily rising of Jesus into heaven on the 40th day after his resurrection

 

What is the resurrected body?  

 

Jesus said he was the 'light of the world'... and I mentioned else where Paul talks of the mystery... is 'Christ in you'...

 

And yet there is the verse on 'the holy spirit has been with you but now will be IN you".

 

Many verses to refer too but this draws enough of a picture to me that Jesus is the manifestation of light (for the world) which allows the HS to reside within... for Light to reside within the manifest world of beings.

 

His ascension is a metaphor for leaving the worldly/darkness (old wine skins) for the spiritual/light (new wine skins)...

 

This link shows:

http://cejournal.org/GRD/DeathandResurrection.htm

 

This presentation is focused on the "highest" or "final" energy body. Some of the names given to that body are as follow:

 

• In the Christian tradition and esoteric Judaism it is called "the resurrection body" and "the glorified body." St. Paul called it "the celestial body" or "spiritual body." 

• In Sufism it is called "the most sacred body" (wujud al-aqdas).

• In Taoism it is called "the diamond body" and those who have attained it are called "the immortals" and "the cloudwalkers."

• In Tibetan Buddhism it is called "the light body."

• In some mystery schools it is called "the solar body."

• In Rosicrucianism it is called "the diamond body of the temple of God."

• In Tantrism and yoga it is called the "the vajra body," "the adamantine body" and "the divine body."

• In Vedanta it is called "the superconductive body."

• In Kriya yoga it is called "the body of bliss."

• In Gnosticism and Neoplatonism it is called "the radiant body."

• In the alchemical tradition, the Emerald Tablet calls it "the Glory of the Whole Universe" and the "golden body."

• In the Hermetic Corpus it is called "the immortal body" (soma athanaton).

• In ancient Egypt it was called "the Akh."

• In Old Persia it was called "the indwelling divine potential" (fravashi or fra varti).

• In the Mithraic liturgy it was called "the perfect body" (soma telion)

• In the philosophy of Sri Aurobindo it is called "the Divine Body" composed of supramental substance.

• In the philosophy of Te ilhard de Chardin it is called "the ultrahuman."

• In the philosophy of Nietzsche it is called "the Overman (das Ubermensch)."

[Jeff]

as·cen·sion

(ə-sĕn′shən)

n.

1. The act or process of ascending; ascent.

2. Astronomy The rising of a star above the horizon.

3.  In Christianity, the bodily rising of Jesus into heaven on the 40th day after his resurrection

 

Light bodies might be a part of Bon or Dzogchen tradition, and there is Daoist reference to light bodies, but why do you try to use biblical Christianity to falsely support your personal agenda?

 

My post to Spotless was more about differenting what kinds of things can happen or are possible. The question was real ascension or metaphor? Most traditions and current teachers would say metaphor. What would you say?

 

The bible states...

 

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. (‭Genesis‬ ‭5‬:‭24‬ KJV)

 

And also...

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭1-9‬ KJV)

 

The spiritual process is about realizing that "true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world".

 

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Bindi]

What is the resurrected body?  

 

Jesus said he was the 'light of the world'... and I mentioned else where Paul talks of the mystery... is 'Christ in you'...

 

 

In John, but as mentioned earlier John is not one of the synoptic gospels, and his is the furthest in time from the actual life of Jesus. Paul saying Christ in you doesn't refer to light, and once again Paul came along after the life of Jesus, though he highly influenced Christianity nonetheless.  

 

 

 

 

And yet there is the verse on 'the holy spirit has been with you but now will be IN you".

 

Many verses to refer too but this draws enough of a picture to me that Jesus is the manifestation of light (for the world) which allows the HS to reside within... for Light to reside within the manifest world of beings.

 

 

If you post these many verses of Jesus being the manifestation of light they can be considered one by one, generalising doesn't cut it.

 

 

 

His ascension is a metaphor for leaving the worldly/darkness (old wine skins) for the spiritual/light (new wine skins)...

 

This link shows:

http://cejournal.org/GRD/DeathandResurrection.htm

In your quote "In the Christian tradition and esoteric Judaism it is called "the resurrection body" and "the glorified body." St. Paul called it "the celestial body" or "spiritual body."

 

This doesn't support the notion that Christianity embraces the concept of light bodies. I don't deny that other traditions might, I am specifically saying that Christianity doesn't support this view, despite the single reference from John.

[dawei]

This doesn't support the notion that Christianity embraces the concept of light bodies. I don't deny that other traditions might, I am specifically saying that Christianity doesn't support this view, despite the single reference from John.

 

Personally, I don't think proximity to the time of Jesus matters that much. John and Paul both write more in revelation like manner instead of historical.

 

And the above is one reason why I left 'Christianity'... the ideas they did embrace just seemed to 'miss the mark'.   I was personally much more into Apostolic Christianity and Jews for Jesus unique take on understanding the Old Testament in the New Testament.

[Bindi]

My post to Spotless was more about differenting what kinds of things can happen or are possible. The question was real ascension or metaphor? Most traditions and current teachers would say metaphor. What would you say?

 

If you had left it as this question, I very probably would have had nothing to say.

 

 

 

The bible states... And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. (‭Genesis‬ ‭5‬:‭24‬ KJV)

 

But there is no mention of light here, at all. Ascension yes. Light no.

 

 

And also... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭1-9‬ KJV) The spiritual process is about realizing that "true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world".

But to see this as referring to light bodies is your interpretation, it doesn't specify that Jesus was a light body at any stage of his life. And again this is from John anyway, and his take is decidedly more enigmatic than the synoptics.

 

"The symbolism of John's gospel while it is probably the most evocative of any in the New Testament, is also provocative. The language of John's gospel is intentionally antagonistic at times toward Jewish tradition and toward Jewish sensitivities. The idea of the Passover of course is very Jewish but John tends to turn some of those ideas in a much sharper way against Jewish tradition. At one point in John 6 Jesus says, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you will have no life in you." But the idea of drinking blood is absolutely abhorrent to Jewish dietary regulations. So the very language and the symbolism that is so rich within John's gospel also has a decidedly political tone to it in terms of the evolving relationship between Jews and Christians. John's gospel is witness to a Christianity that's moving farther and father away from Jewish tradition. And in fact it's seeing Jewish tradition often as actually hostile to the Christian movement."

[Nungali]

Into this wild Abyss

The womb of Nature, and perhaps her grave

Of neither sea, nor shore, nor air, nor fire,

 But all these in their pregnant causes mixed

 Confusedly, and which thus must ever fight,

 Unless the Almighty Maker them ordain

 His dark materials to create more worlds,

 Into this wild Abyss the wary Fiend

Stood on the brink of Hell and looked a while,

Pondering his voyage; for no narrow frith

He had to cross. 

 

[Apech]

Into this wild Abyss

The womb of Nature, and perhaps her grave

Of neither sea, nor shore, nor air, nor fire,

 But all these in their pregnant causes mixed

 Confusedly, and which thus must ever fight,

 Unless the Almighty Maker them ordain

 His dark materials to create more worlds,

 Into this wild Abyss the wary Fiend

Stood on the brink of Hell and looked a while,

Pondering his voyage; for no narrow frith

He had to cross. 

 

“And I — my head oppressed by horror — said:

"Master, what is it that I hear? Who are

those people so defeated by their pain?"

      And he to me: "This miserable way

is taken by the sorry souls of those

who lived without disgrace and without praise.

      They now commingle with the coward angels,

the company of those who were not rebels

nor faithful to their God, but stood apart.

      The heavens, that their beauty not be lessened,

have cast them out, nor will deep Hell receive them —

even the wicked cannot glory in them.” 

 

 

... ha! Losers!

[Jeff]

 

And again this is from John anyway, and his take is decidedly more enigmatic than the synoptics."The symbolism of John's gospel while it is probably the most evocative of any in the New Testament, is also provocative. The language of John's gospel is intentionally antagonistic at times toward Jewish tradition and toward Jewish sensitivities. The idea of the Passover of course is very Jewish but John tends to turn some of those ideas in a much sharper way against Jewish tradition. At one point in John 6 Jesus says, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you will have no life in you." But the idea of drinking blood is absolutely abhorrent to Jewish dietary regulations. So the very language and the symbolism that is so rich within John's gospel also has a decidedly political tone to it in terms of the evolving relationship between Jews and Christians. John's gospel is witness to a Christianity that's moving farther and father away from Jewish tradition. And in fact it's seeing Jewish tradition often as actually hostile to the Christian movement."

I don't understand your point here. Are you saying with your quoted text that you don't consider John as a valid gospel?

 

Also, on offending by eating flesh and drinking blood, all of the gospels say the same thing, so I don't understand the why the author's comments are relevant. See below...

 

And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

 

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (‭Matthew‬ ‭26‬:‭19, 26-28‬ KJV)

 

And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. (‭Mark‬ ‭14‬:‭22-24‬ KJV)

 

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭19-20‬ KJV)

Edited May 28, 2015 by Jeff

[Jeff]

 

But there is no mention of light here, at all. Ascension yes. Light no. But to see this as referring to light bodies is your interpretation, it doesn't specify that Jesus was a light body at any stage of his life. "

 

Some more on the light (and being full of it)...

 

Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light. (‭Luke‬ ‭11‬:‭35-36‬ KJV)

 

The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. (‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭34-36‬ KJV)

[Bindi]

Some more on the light (and being full of it)... Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light. (‭Luke‬ ‭11‬:‭35-36‬ KJV) The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. (‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭34-36‬ KJV)

 

 

Darkness and light are evocative words in Hebrew. Darkness evokes everything that is anti-God: the wicked, judgment, death. Light is the first of the Creator's works, manifesting the divine operation in a world that is darkness and chaos without it. While light is not itself divine, it is often used metaphorically for life, salvation, the commandments, and the divine presence of God.

 

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/light/

 

Light is used as a metaphor.

 

1. metaphor

[ ˈmetəˌfôr, -fər ]

 

NOUN

noun: metaphor • plural noun: metaphors

a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable:

 

“light” is not a secret reference to light bodies, though people will always see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear.

[Jeff]

Darkness and light are evocative words in Hebrew. Darkness evokes everything that is anti-God: the wicked, judgment, death. Light is the first of the Creator's works, manifesting the divine operation in a world that is darkness and chaos without it. While light is not itself divine, it is often used metaphorically for life, salvation, the commandments, and the divine presence of God.http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/light/Light is used as a metaphor.1. metaphor[ ˈmetəˌfôr, -fər ]NOUNnoun: metaphor • plural noun: metaphorsa figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable:“light” is not a secret reference to light bodies, though people will always see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear.

 

Yes, very good point on seeing and hearing. There are many more such quotes in the bible, but one last time a few more for you on the point...

 

How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings. They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures. For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light. (‭Psalms‬ ‭36‬:‭7-9‬ KJV)

 

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. (‭Luke‬ ‭12‬:‭34-36‬ KJV)

 

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭19-21‬ KJV)

 

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭8‬ KJV)

 

While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. (‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭36‬ KJV)

 

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭14-16‬ KJV)

[3bob]

wow lots of Bible quotes!

 

light can be bright or light can be dark, but that inside the light is greater than both

[Jeff]

wow lots of Bible quotes!

 

light can be bright or light can be dark, but that inside the light is greater than both

 

The clear (and unseeable) light is the brightest of all.

[blue eyed snake]

I'm so happy I was brought up without the burden of religion

 

whether I read buddhist or christian discussion, it's all the same to me..

 

baffling that is 

[thelerner]

 

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (‭Matthew‬ ‭26‬:‭19, 26-28‬ KJV)

 

And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. (‭Mark‬ ‭14‬:‭22-24‬ KJV)

 

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭19-20‬ KJV)

my understanding is more psychological then religious.  Every holiday, including each Friday, Jews tear off a piece of bread, look at it reverently and say the essence and mystery of God is right here!  Then we do the same with wine; hold it, and within the blessing, imply right here essence and mystery of God, wow wine!   Too often we do by rote but its supposed to be a holy sacred, opening the ark kind of moment.  Probably is for a person of mystic bend, and might be misinterpreted by someone who's not used to it. 

 

Jesus was probably saying the same prayer I do every Friday over bread, in this case (Passover) it'd be unleavened which evolved into wafer.   Perhaps mystery and essence got mixed up with blood and body?  Symbolism being taken literally.  Maybe, especially if you weren't used to it being referred to in that way.  

[Jeff]

my understanding is more psychological then religious.  Every holiday, including each Friday, Jews tear off a piece of bread, look at it reverently and say the essence and mystery of God is right here!  Then we do the same with wine; hold it, and within the blessing, imply right here essence and mystery of God, wow wine!   Too often we do by rote but its supposed to be a holy sacred, opening the ark kind of moment.  Probably is for a person of mystic bend, and might be misinterpreted by someone who's not used to it. 

 

Jesus was probably saying the same prayer I do every Friday over bread, in this case (Passover) it'd be unleavened which evolved into wafer.   Perhaps mystery and essence got mixed up with blood and body?  Symbolism being taken literally.  Maybe, especially if you weren't used to it being referred to in that way.  

 

Here it is in greater context, does it seem to be the same?

 

Matthew 26

 

18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

[thelerner]

 26.. maybe yes,

28.. I guess the new testament mention is moving away from my theory. 

 

We're pretty squeamish about blood, but in those days, you said a bad word and you'd buy a dove, used your sharpened thumb nail to slit its throat, say a ritualized prayer for forgiveness.  So things were different, way different in those days.  

 

Our understanding of the culture's norms, and symbolism, may be way off.  To me the bible is an evolved work being 'telephone gamed' through many generations before its various written forms.  

 

Just as the old testament was (<highly> probably) written by several sources at different times, I assume (perhaps wrongly) the new testament is based on sayings and stories of Jesus but after death those needed to be seen through the prism of creating a new religion and deifying Jesus and codifying a new religion.   Which involved separating it from its Jewish roots. 

 

Thus you had people like Thomas Jefferson creating the 'Jefferson' bible to search for the undeified Jesus. 

Edited May 29, 2015 by thelerner

[Bindi]

 26.. maybe yes,

28.. I guess the new testament mention is moving away from my theory. 

 

We're pretty squeamish about blood, but in those days, you said a bad word and you'd buy a dove, used your sharpened thumb nail to slit its throat, say a ritualized prayer for forgiveness.  So things were different, way different in those days.  

 

Our understanding of the culture's norms, and symbolism, may be way off.  To me the bible is an evolved work being 'telephone gamed' through many generations before its various written forms.  

 

Just as the old testament was (<highly> probably) written by several sources at different times, I assume (perhaps wrongly) the new testament is based on sayings and stories of Jesus but after death those needed to be seen through the prism of creating a new religion and deifying Jesus and codifying a new religion.   Which involved separating it from its Jewish roots. 

 

Thus you had people like Thomas Jefferson creating the 'Jefferson' bible to search for the undeified Jesus. 

Hi thelerner, 

 

Are you saying that you believe 'the last supper' to have been Jesus saying the normal Jewish prayer over the bread and wine, with no mention of it being his body and blood, or for the remission of sins etc. That this is all later overlay, by non Jews, or Christians with Jewish heritage?

 

That really does make sense to me.