Wudang Martial Monks

[nightwatchdog]

I just thought I'd post some links to vids I stumbled across recently in order to provide a traditional counter perspective to some of the other materials being discussed on the forums. Martial Chi Kung at it's finest:

 

 

 

Wudang Tai Chi Chuan

 

 

 

There are many others on youtube, but these were demonstrations I enjoyed. I hope you do also.

[Spectrum]

Very nice sets. Thank you.

 

Spectrum

[minkus]

Thanx a mill, beautifull really.

[doc benway]

Nice demos! Everything is very well done. For the sake of discussion, I'll ask - can any of it really be called Wudang? In China, internal arts are often called Wudang Pai but in reality, none of them can be traced to Wudang, historically. Bagua originated in Hebei, Xingyi in Shaanxi, and Taiji in Chen village, based on available documentation.

- Xingyiquan (Hsing I Chuan) originated (supposedly) in Shaanxi province and was modified in Hebei province. Those are the two major styles, though there are a few others. I'm not aware of any style that originated in Wudang. This demo looks more like Hebei style to me (although I could be wrong about that) and it's well done.

- There are lots of Taijiquan forms called Wudang but none of them, to my limited knowledge, have ever been validated, unlike the Yang, Wu, Sun, and Chen forms which can be pretty reliably traced back to their origins in Chen village. The origins of Taijiquan associated with Wudang are much more legendary than traceable.

- The jian form at the end of the Taiji video looks modern to me. One giveaway is the use of the modern wushu sword. Traditional jian were never that flexible. The modern sword is flexible because it is so light and lends itself to the modern, acrobatic, wu shu forms. Some people say it's flexible to show qi flow - baloney! A sword is made to cut and parry, not show qi flow.

Edited October 18, 2007 by xuesheng

[nightwatchdog]

In the case of Hsing-i, I suppose it depends on who you think the founder(s) of that art were. The commonly accepted legendary founder is General Yue Fei, who was born in Hunan, and who trained in Shaolin spear among other arts. Supposedly he added Taoist chi kung methods his stuff, while simplifying the gross movements so that it could be taught to peasant soldiers quickly, a sort of early crash-course bootcamp if you will. This would point to Shaolin origions.

 

If you are of the Ji Lung Fung camp, then you ignore what Ji said about the origions of his art himself, i.e. that he learned it from a text that he acquired on Wudang mountain that had been written by Yue Fei. If that's the case and Ji founded it himself, then Hsing-i would be a Wudang method, if he trained it at Wudang... I guess.

 

The accepted I-Chuan, Shanxi, Hebei, Ermei, and Wudang branches all claim Hsing-i origionates from one of these two individuals, and that the flavors are due to regional differences acquired over the last 400 years of refinement.

 

Of course, I could be horribly mistaken, but really, aside from trying to pass along the "historical" tradition, it dosen't matter to me where it's from. I only care that it works. Those monks are doing a bang-up job, either way.

 

[doc benway]

 

Of course, I could be horribly mistaken, but really, aside from trying to pass along the "historical" tradition, it dosen't matter to me where it's from. I only care that it works. Those monks are doing a bang-up job, either way.

 

Agreed

[Spectrum]

Ridiculous Ridicule. Stillness is the Mother of Eternal Movement.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Spectrum

[Buddy]

No, sorry this was crap. No shenfa at all.

 

Here's real xingyi with superb shenfa.

[Spectrum]

No, sorry this was crap. No shenfa at all.

 

Here's real xingyi with superb shenfa.

 

Nice connective structure on that other xingyi guy. Watch how smooth his feet/hips change with his hands. No break in continuity.... Then again, why would you see good xingyi from a wudang guy?

[nightwatchdog]

No, sorry this was crap. No shenfa at all.

 

Here's real xingyi with superb shenfa.

 

Oh no, those combat applications were very fake. No gong ji at all.

 

Here is an example of superb combat gong ji.

 

Edited October 20, 2007 by nightwatchdog

[林愛偉]

Oh no, those combat applications were very fake. No gong ji at all.

 

Here is an example of superb combat gong ji.

 

 

 

Gong Ji.. hahahaha That's GREAT!

 

hahaha

 

[nightwatchdog]

Thank you, we're here all week.

 

Be sure to visit the souvenier shop in the lobby!

 

 

[doc benway]

Oh no, those combat applications were very fake. No gong ji at all.

 

Here is an example of superb combat gong ji.

 

Now that's the fighting chicken form! Awesome footwork...

[rain]

this is good gung:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjS1oqUMEKs

[Spectrum]

this is good gung:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjS1oqUMEKs

 

 

Fantastic undulations. Wow! Reminds me of Bow Sim Marks Improvised Form.

[Buddy]

Unfortunately, it's true.

[lockpaw]

- There are lots of Taijiquan forms called Wudang but none of them, to my limited knowledge, have ever been validated, unlike the Yang, Wu, Sun, and Chen forms which can be pretty reliably traced back to their origins in Chen village. The origins of Taijiquan associated with Wudang are much more legendary than traceable.

- The jian form at the end of the Taiji video looks modern to me. One giveaway is the use of the modern wushu sword. Traditional jian were never that flexible. The modern sword is flexible because it is so light and lends itself to the modern, acrobatic, wu shu forms. Some people say it's flexible to show qi flow - baloney! A sword is made to cut and parry, not show qi flow.

 

 

Add to that the cultural revolution and the idea that Wudang martial arts would've survived at Wudang Mountain, one of the most famous mountains for Taoist Chinese, it sounds preposterous. I was reading this book "American Shaolin" about how the Shaolin monks were established recently. It was put together by Chinese Communists looking to draw tourism. The modern monks are all wushu and no Buddhism. I wonder if the same goes for these Wudang Taoists.

[Spectrum]

The modern monks are all wushu and no Buddhism. I wonder if the same goes for these Wudang Taoists.

 

Think what you want of the propaganda called American Shaolin. Go search "Amongst White Clouds" on youtube. Funny what gets played in the "theaters". Funny what gets called "wushu". Buddhism wushu? Oh you mean Shaolin. There are some origin differences between why/how the shaolin monks use martial art, and taoists. Anything w/ a stop in it is wushit. (for performance)

 

My question to pose to you is this: what qualities are you looking for to judge the authenticity of any "movement"? Lets assume biomechanical perfection in the performance / application of any form/art.

 

What threads of truth are you looking to recognize in these movements? What informs you of something being "inauthentic"... again, what qualities are you looking for in "the form"?

 

Cultural Revolution: Yet we're talking about a body of accumulated wisdom that only externally gets called forms, I wonder how many "transmissions" made it through the Cultural Revolution? I wonder how many died w/ their guardians.

 

Spectrum

Edited October 21, 2007 by Spectrum

[lockpaw]

Propoganda called American Shaolin? What are you talking about? Did you even read my post? I said American Shaolin the book, not the cheesy movie! Matthew Polly went and trained at the shaolin school in China in the 90s that produces the travelling Shaolin monks. Wushu without the buddhism means: no noble truths, no eightfold path, no meditation, no mindfulness practices, no suttas, no chanting, no nothing.

 

Authenticity of movement? I don't know what you're talking about. We're talking history. These wudang guys say they're practicing tai chi as passed down from Zheng San Feng and practiced on Wudang Mountain. I posted that I think that's a crock. You think the Communists let Wudang go when they wiped out everything else? That's just naive. Just because there are hermits living in the mountains doesn't mean the wudang/shaolin arts are the same as they've always been.

 

Think what you want of the propaganda called American Shaolin. Go search "Amongst White Clouds" on youtube. Funny what gets played in the "theaters". Funny what gets called "wushu". Buddhism wushu? Oh you mean Shaolin. There are some origin differences between why/how the shaolin monks use martial art, and taoists. Anything w/ a stop in it is wushit. (for performance)

 

My question to pose to you is this: what qualities are you looking for to judge the authenticity of any "movement"? Lets assume biomechanical perfection in the performance / application of any form/art.

 

What threads of truth are you looking to recognize in these movements? What informs you of something being "inauthentic"... again, what qualities are you looking for in "the form"?

 

Cultural Revolution: Yet we're talking about a body of accumulated wisdom that only externally gets called forms, I wonder how many "transmissions" made it through the Cultural Revolution? I wonder how many died w/ their guardians.

 

Spectrum

[Spectrum]

My Bad on the American Shaolin. I don't really pay attention to it, but I should have paid attention to your words closer.

 

Authenticity of movement? I don't know what you're talking about. We're talking history. These wudang guys say they're practicing tai chi as passed down from Zheng San Feng and practiced on Wudang Mountain.

 

Are you familiar w/ the Story?

 

I posted that I think that's a crock.

 

That's what happens when you get old and cranky. Here hit this.

 

You think the Communists let Wudang go when they wiped out everything else? That's just naive. Just because there are hermits living in the mountains doesn't mean the wudang/shaolin arts are the same as they've always been.

 

Back to my original question. What qualities of Wudang form are inauthentic? Are you saying they are not doing what they are doing or something? Their tai chi aint taichi? You think the Chens invented it? I don't get it.

 

Wudang practice seems fairly "comprehensive" from my perspective. Everything changes w/ time, but even movement and speech can be traced. Does "pre-history" make a difference? What about "pre-birtch" breathing?

 

Even the halls of Shaolin has grooves in the floor from... something. There are chuan fa depictions on the walls of caves along the silk road that are pretty old. I'd venture to say there isn't anything new under the son.

 

Spectrum

 

PS - This Statement:

 

You think the Communists let Wudang go when they wiped out everything else? That's just naive.

 

Is uninformed. Ref: San Fran, BC, Seattle, Boston in the 50's. You think a communist regime can keep life from replicating? Chuan Lives On.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Spectrum

[doc benway]

The modern monks are all wushu and no Buddhism. I wonder if the same goes for these Wudang Taoists.

According to my teacher (from Taiwan), there is very little continuity left among Buddhist or Daoist lineage/martial practice in mainland China. He constantly talks about the "monks" and "martial artists" paraded by the government for tourist purposes. He tells some funny stories about the "monks."

 

My question to pose to you is this: what qualities are you looking for to judge the authenticity of any "movement"? Lets assume biomechanical perfection in the performance / application of any form/art.

 

What threads of truth are you looking to recognize in these movements? What informs you of something being "inauthentic"... again, what qualities are you looking for in "the form"?

The answer is martial intent. Modern wushu sacrifices martial efficacy for drama, beauty, and demonstration of physical/acrobatic ability. Martially effective stances are not as low or wide as wushu stances. Posture is maintained rather than exaggerated for effect. Hand postures serve more than visual purpose. Posture (at least in taiji, xingyi, and bagua) adheres to the classics and songs, rather than pleases the judges for competition medals. This is a consistent difference when looking at traditional vs wushu forms. A perfect example is the use of the flexible sword for it's light weight and dramatic vibration rather than for it's strenght and weight for cutting.

[Spectrum]

According to my teacher (from Taiwan), there is very little continuity left among Buddhist or Daoist lineage/martial practice in mainland China. He constantly talks about the "monks" and "martial artists" paraded by the government for tourist purposes. He tells some funny stories about the "monks."

 

Assuming that some practitioners take their studies of taijichuan or meditation seriously do you think that seekers intuition can adequatly equip one to discern the difference between authentic internal martial art and external martial art for show?

 

The answer is martial intent.

 

What goes through your minds eye when you practice? Where your focus is? Intent obserable in movement? How does that manifest in the body into something discernable?

 

Modern wushu sacrifices martial efficacy for drama, beauty, and demonstration of physical/acrobatic ability. Martially effective stances are not as low or wide as wushu stances. Posture is maintained rather than exaggerated for effect. Hand postures serve more than visual purpose. Posture (at least in taiji, xingyi, and bagua) adheres to the classics and songs, rather than pleases the judges for competition medals. This is a consistent difference when looking at traditional vs wushu forms.

.

 

Preach it. I agree 100 % with a flourish.

 

A perfect example is the use of the flexible sword for it's light weight and dramatic vibration rather than for it's strenght and weight for cutting

 

Have you ever switched between the two and done the same form?

 

Respectfully,

 

Spectrum

Edited October 21, 2007 by Spectrum

[lockpaw]

My Bad on the American Shaolin. I don't really pay attention to it, but I should have paid attention to your words closer.

 

I forgive you. Go in peace and sin no more!

 

Are you familiar w/ the Story?

 

I've heard many legends.

 

Back to my original question. What qualities of Wudang form are inauthentic? Are you saying they are not doing what they are doing or something? Their tai chi aint taichi? You think the Chens invented it? I don't get it.

 

I didn't say Wudang was authentic or inauthentic. I'm saying I'm having a hard time believing their story, i.e. that they are practicing the original Tai Chi passed down from ZSF as it was and has been taught on Wudang mountain in China. I'm saying anything on Wudang was purged during the cultural revolution. The word on the rumor mill is that these wudang guys were external martial artists who found a Taoist priest in China and studied with him for a few years. After that, they opened the Wudang monastary and said their Tai Chi is the authentic Tai Chi.

 

Wudang practice seems fairly "comprehensive" from my perspective. Everything changes w/ time, but even movement and speech can be traced. Does "pre-history" make a difference? What about "pre-birtch" breathing?

 

It does make a difference. As you do one thing, you do all. If they're lying about their lineage, how can you trust them?

Is uninformed. Ref: San Fran, BC, Seattle, Boston in the 50's. You think a communist regime can keep life from replicating? Chuan Lives On.

 

I didn't say Tai Chi Chuan was wiped out. I said it was mostly wiped out in China. Everyone I've talked to, Chinese or no, say that the masters either 1) fled China or 2) headed for the hills. You see this time and time again with Tai Chi, other forms of kung fu, Buddhist masters, etc. These Wudang guys say they're STILL sitting on Wudang teaching the old ways while everyone else was purged.

Edited October 21, 2007 by lockpaw

[doc benway]

Assuming that some practitioners take their studies of taijichuan or meditation seriously do you think that seekers intuition can adequatly equip one to discern the difference between authentic internal martial art and external martial art for show?

Perhaps, after a period of quality instruction or practical martial experience. A teacher is important, IMO. Bad habits are very easy to develop and a discriminating eye requires a lot of experience. Also, a teacher should be someone who can show you what has worked for them in the past so that you don't have to repeat all the same mistakes, especially in a combat situation. A very good student can glean a lot from the classics but needs some first hand guidance for optimal results, IMO.

What goes through your minds eye when you practice?Where your focus is?

Focus and intent vary dramatically depending on the goal of practice at any particular point. There are many things worthy of focus, practice, study in the forms - quiding the qi, maintaining song, breath coordination, posture, diffusion of awareness, continuity of awareness in time, expressing fajin, the list goes on and on.

Intent obserable in movement? How does that manifest in the body into something discernable?

External and internal should be coordinated so that the external will reflect the internal. One thing I look for in a student/competitor/teacher is whether I can sense their intent in their movement.

Preach it. I agree 100 % with a flourish.

Preach it? Yea, unfortunately, I like to talk a lot - much more than my teacher would like... More importantly, I try to practice it!

Have you ever switched between the two and done the same form?

Frequently - I usually practice with an overly heavy sword (or staff or whatever weapon I'm working with) to build strength and endurance. Sometimes I'll then use a medium or very light wooden model or do the weapon form without a weapon at all. Valuable training techniques for sure.

Edited October 21, 2007 by xuesheng

[林愛偉]

My Dharma Brother's Bagua teacher was approached by monks of Wu Dang offering a place at the temple if in exchange he would teach his Bagua Zhang there. The Master told the monks he wouldn't do it. Ofcourse they were upset, and asked why. THe Master said " I'm not Daoist enough...what if I say 'Namo Amitabha Buddha' or something? That's not going to shine right with Wu Dang now is it?"

The monks tried to talk him into it saying how they'll give him clothing to wear that looks Daoist, and support him when he is requested to go overseas to represent Bagua.

He said to them that his Bagua isn't Wu Dang Martial Arts, and it isn't proper to lie to people for the sake of having M.A. in Wu Dang.

 

Sad, but true. I know my Dharma brother's teacher out here. He is high level good stuff for Bagua, not someone to tell lies.

 

Not all the monks in Wu Dang are full out monks. They are just that.. Wu Shu teachers with long hair and a robe. Same in Shao Lin...and some monastics are actually just 9-5'ers with a family and get a paid check from the gov. for being a monk for the tourists. They live a few days in the temple, and leave with their suitcase.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

P.S.- Wu Dang still has a few old ol dold schoolers who have something. But no commercial entity in China will teach real, high level energetic cultivation. Its impossible to allow under this gov.

You may get something watered down, and or probably close to watered down. But mostly Daoist cultivation, high level, goes into other realms, and utilizing planets and stars for their energy, etc.

Edited October 21, 2007 by 林愛偉