Wang Liping Low Level?

[dawei]

By the way, "spiritual" means "in communication with spirits, deities and immortals."  Nothing else, contrary to new age beliefs.  It does not mean "good" or "bad," "ethical" or "unethical."  Not even close.

 

Or that you scatter paper fragments or burn paper

[healingtouch]

In comparison to our man-made ethics I'd say the "universe" is quite immoral. In nature, everything eats everything else to survive. The male body is a regular killing machine. It creates millions of "could be" humans just to kill them off and recycle what's left over. The weather doesn't think twice about wiping out thousands of people. Yes, nature is quite immoral.

 

Morality is the result of we humans trying to figure out which actions to avoid and which ones to take part is so as to make ourselves and the people around us happy.

 

But that's just us. The universe doesn't care what we think about ethics.

 

Yes, perhaps whatever the Universe produces is completely random, or perhaps it only seems random because of our inability to comprehend its laws and "ethics". So perhaps whatever nature does is not that random either, there is a deeper meaning behind it. Something which many enlightened beings and mystics have alluded to since ancient times ..

Edited June 5, 2015 by healingtouch

[KenBrace]

Or that you scatter paper fragments or burn paper

 

Burning paper has nothing to do with spirituality.

 

Being able to burn paper because of the physical development of the spirit does.

 

Yes, perhaps whatever the Universe produces is completely random, or perhaps it only seems random because of our inability to comprehend its laws and "ethics". So perhaps whatever nature does is not that random either, there is a deeper meaning behind it. Something which many enlightened beings and mystics have alluded to since ancient times ..

 

Maybe but I see no evidence of this.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

The physical development of the opposable thumbs - on a larger scale - is what makes you able to burn paper, spirit might help of course but paper is the end product of a certain level of industry of manufacture, gotta have thumbs for those. Even a very small industry.

 

Ken: burning paper has everything to do with spirituality, take ghost money for instance.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Daeluin]

Many of the so called masters whether contemporary or ancient have disapproved of powers as being a distraction. Why? Fear perhaps? The so called warnings are; Buddhist hell realms, Christian hell or some type of damnation of sorts. Basically, one won't be allowed in heaven if powers are displayed which is nothing more than a struggle for power and authoritarian manipulation. In the conservative minds of these so called masters, power is never shared. Followers of authoritarian masters will naturally parrot whatever ideology is planted in their non critical minds. 

 

I view this more as an issue of balance. Extreme displays of spiritual power upset the energetic balance that many work to achieve - this is all in the subtle realms but very real. Powers can be used for great good, but use of powers is a side-path to the main path of returning to the dao, so if the use of the powers is kept in connection to the dao so that it's use never strays too far away, then the influence of that power can help invite things toward connection to dao. But if power is used out of connection to the dao, as in for proving something to people who study things for the purposes of seeing how we can use the fabric of our reality to further our own positions, to feed the constructs of our egos, then the power is being taken from the dao and leading everything it touches away from connection to dao.

 

Thomas Cleary's intro to Immortal Sisters:

 

 

A classic exposition of the humanitarian aspect of Taoism is to be found in the story of the distinguished Immortal Sister Zhao of the Song dynasty (960-1278 C.E.). The question of charitable works was raised by her brother after he overheard her receiving esoteric instructions on rainmaking. He asked her why spiritual immortals, who had transcended the mundane world would bother to do such things as make rain. Immortal Sister Zhao replied, "Those who have now attained spiritual immortality but cannot as yet live in heaven number in the thousands. They are all in various places on earth accumulating virtue, carrying out practical undertakings so that they may eventually make the ascent.

 

"Some of them take care of rivers and lakes, some of them manage the hidden government, some are in charge of the mountains. They work to benefit ten thousand generations, to rid the earth of what is harmful, to heal the sick and eliminate problems, acting mercifully toward the troubled and uplifting the fallen, rescuing the weak and helpless.

 

"Their hidden works are carried out in secret, their virtuous deeds are practiced covertly. Such is their range that they cannot be encompassed in one generalization. But the spiritual immortals do not take pride in themselves, and are wary of becoming known to the public; therefore worldly people do not get to hear about them."

 

 

Ultimately all is dao, however, here on earth the balances are very delicate. We're lucky to be part of such balance. If we move to a very hard extreme all life may end, and will still be part of dao, to eventually transform in different ways, but we may miss an interesting opportunity here. Whatever happens happens. Just in general, self-interest is at odds with the interest of the whole.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Daeluin

[blue eyed snake]

"To seek Mind with the discriminating mind is the greatest of all mistakes"

 

thank you for this simple but so easily  'forgotten' truth

[JinlianPai]

Taoist are very powerful.

 

When you hear authentic ordained Taoist think very powerful practitioner.

 

Before my teacher demostrated the Golden Lotus to me he taught me the Tin Chon Wan.

 

The clouds from heaven alchemy which is a rare training that is part of taoist cloud alchemy.

 

This training lets you cultivate and actually manifest an actual thunder cloud between your palms.

 

This training also gives you a lightness skill.

 

Taoist have knowledge like this.

 

Wang Li Peng if he is authentic ordained Taoist then he has knowledge like this.

 

He would have too.

 

For it isnt him that is question more of the sect he came from.

 

When you say these things.

[dawei]

Burning paper has nothing to do with spirituality.

 

Being able to burn paper because of the physical development of the spirit does.

 

Which is to say... as Taomeow points out succinctly,

 

"spiritual" means "in communication with spirits, deities and immortals."  Nothing else

 

There are 'powers' which develop from cultivating self...  even the spirits in the self...

 

To be "in communication with spirits, deities, and immortals" is not a practice... it is a kind of cosmic, re-structure of what anything you do in this physical life seems to mean... and is the spirits coming to you.... visiting you.

 

Seek burning paper all you want...

 

Sometimes I wish I could turn off the visits...  but each moment-experience shows me this physical life is not about burning paper... but there are many dimensions to experience.

[Taomeow]

And another "by the way."  I know someone who could set stuff on fire with his intent long before cultivation -- this might come naturally and spontaneously to people whose wuxing phase of Fire is blazing in their bazi chart.  Episode from a picnic:  it had rained, and the fire intended, and tended to with utmost care, wouldn't start no matter how everybody tried.  So, this guy strikes a pose, holds his hands over the fire pit, and proclaims, "Let's get this fire started!"  And a column of fire shoots up higher than people's heads!  With uncanny blue and purple lights shooting through it! 

 

That's because of his chart -- Fire proprietary, Fire excess, Water deficiency, and a Fire Horse to boot.  That, and he was high as a kite too, which definitely should be considered a factor.

 

 I would advise anyone who wants to learn pyrokinesis to get a bazi reading first and find out why they want it and why it impresses them so.  In all likelihood they will find that they have Fire deficiency, and a consequent desire to have access to Fire within.  This can be remedied, but not to the extent that you will develop a talent for pyrokinesis, you need an excess of Fire in the chart for that.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Daeluin]

Interesting interpretation. I don't interpret any of what Taomeow said like that.

 

Studying influences and pointing them out isn't the same as declaring those influences to be absolute. The dao operates on many layers, under many influences.

 

Again, as soon as something is built up, there are those waiting to tear it down. Easy to do. No need to build things up - they already stand on their own ground and need no external validation.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[KenBrace]

Which is to say... as Taomeow points out succinctly,

 

 

 

There are 'powers' which develop from cultivating self...  even the spirits in the self...

 

To be "in communication with spirits, deities, and immortals" is not a practice... it is a kind of cosmic, re-structure of what anything you do in this physical life seems to mean... and is the spirits coming to you.... visiting you.

 

Seek burning paper all you want...

 

Sometimes I wish I could turn off the visits...  but each moment-experience shows me this physical life is not about burning paper... but there are many dimensions to experience.

 

Let's just assume that John Chang is not a fraud for a second.

 

f someone can burn paper with their bare hand, what does that mean?

[lifeforce]

Burning paper, walking through walls, special abilities etc etc are NOT the Dao.

Why do so many people think this ?

[doc benway]

Burning paper, walking through walls, special abilities etc etc are NOT the Dao.

Why do so many people think this ?

 

I think it's complicated as everyone has their own unique motivation and perspective.

 

One common theme that I think is at play, however, is the basic tendency of the human thought process to never be satisfied with what is, as it is. 

 

There is always this drive to become something we are not, to be more, better, bigger, faster, more powerful, smarter, richer, etc...

And the more extreme the imagined goal, the more exciting it is. Who wouldn't want superpowers?

And there is no desire more powerful than spiritual desire.

 

My apologies if anyone takes this comment as an insult, but It's a sign of the lack of awareness of what we already are, and how powerful and perfect that is, and a sign that we remain controlled by our thoughts, conditioning, and imagination. 

 

I also think it's a natural tendency and one that is very useful for basic survival but not so useful from a psychological, emotional, and spiritual point of view. 

 

All of the wisdom traditions I've been exposed to (including Daoist, Buddhist, and Bön) begin with encouraging and enabling the indulgence of this tendency. They exploit it, recognizing that most people are unable to let it go de novo.  In Daoist methods, it often has to do with what is being discussed here - development of the energy body and "super natural" skills. In Buddhist and Bön methods, it is more related to moral and ethical development, although the energetic component is certainly there, especially in tantra. Eventually, these methods are abandoned once they reach their natural conclusion and then there is the return to the source - what we always already have been from the beginning. 

 

I think it's best to let this process run its natural course. Partly because it is probably a necessary part of our spiritual growth and partly because you generally can't do anything to change it in anyone other than yourself (and even that is a blessing) - unless, of course you happen to be a teacher and then you MIGHT influence your students. Even then, it is only the student who is ready that will be open to such a drastic change in approach. 

[Taomeow]

@ zoom:  the power you really need to shoot for is reading comprehension. 

[dawei]

Let's just assume that John Chang is not a fraud for a second.

 

f someone can burn paper with their bare hand, what does that mean?

 

I don't doubt him for a second.

 

It means he can burn paper with his bare hands.

 

I think your real question/meaning is, what does it mean/say about his spiritual attainment(?)

 

IMO, one doesn't need spiritual attainment for that.  There are lots of great Qigong feats performed without spiritual attainments. Some 'abilities' simply exist in follks.    I'm speaking generally.

 

John Chang does follow both an energy + spirit lineage.   But that does not mean it becomes the worlds litmus test.

 

It only becomes a test for someone follow that lineage.

[KenBrace]

I don't doubt him for a second.

 

It means he can burn paper with his bare hands.

 

I think your real question/meaning is, what does it mean/say about his spiritual attainment(?)

 

IMO, one doesn't need spiritual attainment for that.  There are lots of great Qigong feats performed without spiritual attainments. Some 'abilities' simply exist in follks.    I'm speaking generally.

 

John Chang does follow both an energy + spirit lineage.   But that does not mean it becomes the worlds litmus test.

 

It only becomes a test for someone follow that lineage.

 

Well I guess it depends on what we mean by "spiritual". In my thinking there are two aspects; mental spirituality and physical spirituality. Mental spirituality is tied into philosophy and psychological well-being. Physical spirituality has to do with the energetic development and growth of the spirit. What is the "spirit"? From a scientific standpoint I have no f*cking clue. All I know is that it is some sort of energetic aspect of the body that can be thickened and developed. If you have enough of this energy then you can project it into your external environment which gives rise to abilities like what Chang demonstrates.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[dawei]

Well I guess it depends on what we mean by "spiritual".

 

Yes.  Good point

 

In my thinking there are two aspects; mental spirituality and physical spirituality. Mental spirituality is tied into philosophy and psychological well-being. Physical spirituality has to do with the energetic development and growth of the spirit. What is the "spirit"? From a scientific standpoint I have no f*cking clue. All I know is that it is some sort of energetic aspect of the body that can be thickened and developed.

 

I did catch you mentioning this earlier... and I don't really disagree on a certain level.  I've tried to come up with my own 'equation' to reflect this.... something like:

 

Spiritual journey = energy/spirit + mind/clarity

 

I see any tradition as using either one or both sides to some degree.   In practice, they are more like stacked on top of each other and connected rather than separated.   In the end, they are all the same representation of Spiritual.  While there may be varying degrees of physical demonstrations/abilities, the end-game is not about the physical stuff.

 

If you have enough of this energy then you can project it into your external environment which gives rise to abilities like what Chang demonstrates.

 

I agree... many have been able to demonstrate acquired physical abilities... most of the time we see the outer demonstrations but there are also inner ones.  

[dawei]

Wrong! The Mo Pai become immortal spirits BECAUSE OF their high level of chi cultivation.

An immortal spirit body CONSISTS OUT OF CHI.

This is Mo Pai 101.

 

I think many people here don't understand the basics of spiritual immortality and should read "The Magus Of Java" to correct this!

 

Energy = Spirit = Light

 

It is not a linear progression but rather what level of refinement one has achieved.  remove the dust from that rock and a diamond appears.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[doc benway]

Mo Pai is not about getting superpowers, it's about becoming an immortal spirit!

You build up an immortal spirit body by amassing and condensing chi.

The superpowers developed in Mo Pai come into existence naturally in that process and prove progress towards becoming a spirit immortal.

Mo Pai is not about getting superpowers but those who lust after it are. 

What is an immortal spirit if not a superpower of sorts?

 

Is that so hard to understand?

Nope

 

Good, then just the few people in this forum who have the intelligence to get what Mo Pai and Taoist Alchemy are about are in fact interested to become Immortals and Buddhas and the rest "relaxes into the perfection they already possess"? Ok then...

How does insulting the intelligence of others help you along your path?

I assert that everyone participating in this discussion has the intelligence to get what Mo Pai and Daoist Alchemy are about.

In fact, some of us have actually received direct training in Daoist methods from credible masters.