Wang Liping Low Level?

[KenBrace]

Guys, I think any mention of a high level master is going to draw criticism (somewhat repetitive ones) from Zoom and Ken Brace because they believe any master who is not Mo Pai is probably a fraud.   Its a creed that not only has to be repeated in any thread about masters, but several times in each thread.

 

If they studied an art that didn't specifically ban there race and nationality I wonder if they'd be so vigilant against other styles and masters?

 

I'm not opposed to other masters because their name isn't "John Chang". I'm simply stating that there isn't really any evidence for Liping's legitimacy which is very relevant to the OP.

[KenBrace]

Frankly, Jim's videos are even less "scientifically convincing" than John's. Again, not suggesting I have any reason to doubt his integrity or veracity or accomplishments -- I am willing to assume everything is "as presented" -- I'm just pointing out that there is nothing even vaguely resembling "proof" here.

 

As to the idea Ken has first hand experience and why am I discounting it -- I am using HIS criteria, his basis for logical proof, as the standard against which to measure in order to demonstrate that he fails his own test and therefore should exercise caution in holding others to that same standard.

 

We're not talking about scientific studies here. We're talking about claims being reviewed by skeptics under more controlled conditions.

[thelerner]

I'm not opposed to other masters because their name isn't "John Chang". I'm simply stating that there isn't really any evidence for Liping's legitimacy which is very relevant to the OP.

Right , your opposed to all other masters because.. there isn't enough evidence, like adventure books where villages are slaughtered and high level wizards do battle.   Only your master (who won't teach you, cause your white) is the one. 

 

You talk about where cons come from, this is usually how they start-  My system is the best-est and real-ist, all others are frauds, then it moves into developing fear ..  without it we're doomed... 

 

 just forward this to the other two dozen mo pai threads that go down in flames. 

 

Let me short circuit this now, since its been repeated in a dozen threads. 

 

You: He's scientifically proven. 

Me: Can he telekinetically pick a piece of paper off the floor?

You: I don't know, maybe, that wasn't part of the science test.

Me. Point of science is it measures.  How much can he lift, in grams or ounces or compared to a sheet of paper?  If there are scientists conducting tests, how much wattage can he produce?  Its $5 for a voltage meter. 

You; Its not that kind of science.

Me: Uh huh. 

 

Then I'll find the usual dozen '...'.  Because I've questioned your 'god', and the Fundamentalist can't take it and has ..

 

In truth I have great respect for Chang, especially as a healer.   I'm sorry your interpretation of being involved in Mo Pai requires insulting other masters and arts.  I think its an obsession that accomplished people look down on and don't participate in.  Especially on the level you two do it.

Edited June 3, 2015 by thelerner

[voidisyinyang]

 

I think it's fine to compare Wang Liping to other meditation masters.

 

John Chang is a good example of what I'm talking about.

 

Yes he did tests for skeptics and his video is the most viewed of any (insert fancy Chinese term) master out there.

 

But my point is that the student has to train to be able to take in the energy that the master can give and it's more difficult to find a good student than a good master.

 

So what was the effect of that video being shown and various Western students trying to study with John Chang?

 

we all know the effect as it's been discussed at long on thetaobums.

 

So this energy based on nondual consciousness is also interactive.

 

The idea that Western science studies are different than skeptics studying them is funny - because Western science standards are objective while the skeptics have been proven to use fraud. The skeptic community is filled with fraud and so they also reject Western science.

 

For example the study of Chunyi and Jim Nance - it was a "gold standard" science study by one of the top medical research hospital scientists - "gold standard" means it was a "randomized, controlled" study.

 

That level of science is accepted de facto. But instead the skeptics make all sorts of funny excuses that are absurd.

 

So it's a matter of philosophy of science. If you de facto do not accept the logic of formless awareness from logical inference then you are not able to really investigate it.

 

I just posted the link for Herbert Benson's study of full lotus meditation masters.

 

That is again western science - objective results achieved.

 

The studies of Yan Xin, another full lotus Buddhist master, are also published in Western science journals.

 

So if people want to practice willful ignorance that is their choice.

 

On the other hand - you can even go to high level spiritual masters but if you don't practice and purify your energy then the results can be limited.

 

The results are a combination of effects - and so it is always interactive.

 

It's not a "dead" methodology as Western science is based on standardization, destruction and commodification.

 

The training of John Chang is really very similar to Wang Liping - you build up the lower tan tien energy - just as Chunyi also teaches.

 

Western science confirms this since the "second brain" is the intestines and stomach with 100,000 neurons - more neurons than the heart! So it makes sense that visualizing light in the lower tan tien and focusing the energy there - closing the lower magpie bridge, etc. sitting in full lotus or doing horse stance, etc. - it creates the yang energy underneath the yin energy and that is the basic principle of alchemy.

 

There is also Wim Hoff - a Westerner who studied meditation in a Thai monastery and he also does full lotus tummo and he's been well tested by both skeptics and western science and he describes the same principle of training.

 

As for the price - well the thing that makes the training so difficult is storing up the energy.

 

Even the qigong (or insert fancy Chinese term here) masters can have their energy drained at a faster rate than can be recharged.

 

So charging money keeps people sincere in the training. Why would someone willful submit themselves to abuse - that would be stupid.

 

The qigong (insert fancy Chinese term here) trainers traditionally did martial arts first and qigong last - because first you got to fight off the pervs and bandits, etc. who are jealous and want to take your energy.

 

Keep in mind that a Wall St. prostitute gets paid $1000 an hour and all that is - a male ejaculation session.

 

Personally I would much rather experience the spiritual energy of a qigong master - and it's cheaper!

 

But still considering that 40% of people in the U.S. make $15 an hour or less - and the U.S. has the worst income inequality of any developed country with 400 people having the same wealth as 150 million people - I can see why it's difficult to afford access to the spiritual energy.

 

The book "Qigong Fever" by David Palmer covers this dynamic in China in great detail - the government of china enforced high prices for the legal qigong societies as a means to control them to keep it from becoming a political mass movement that threatens the power of the Communist Party.

 

So in the same way the Communists have fake Tibetan Buddhist empowerment ceremonies with their own fake installed Lamas, etc.

 

Basically spiritual training has been commodified into a fake New Age experience.

 

But then that is also the mindset that Westerners approach the subject.

 

People shop around for the "best" master and whine about it online - like they're at the Mall with their Mom and they can never be satisfied.

 

I call it Mall Science.

 

I know that Chunyi had to do rigorous tests and then was given the international certification as a qigong master by the government of China - these tests included taking in household electrical power and changing the power of it - and also ingesting deadly poison and transforming it..... also accurate long distance healing and precognition tests.....

 

I assume Wang Liping is certified as a qigong master by the Chinese government and so he would have to do similar tests.

[voidisyinyang]

http://thedaobums.com/topic/18215-events-of-taoist-master-wang-liping/page-5

 

another Wang Liping thread with more details

[KenBrace]

I assume Wang Liping is certified as a qigong master by the Chinese government and so he would have to do similar tests.

 

 

The chinese government tests qigong masters therefore nationally acknowledges the existence of Qi? 

Edited June 3, 2015 by KenBrace

[voidisyinyang]

The chinese government tests qigong masters therefore nationally acknowledges the existence of Qi? 

 

They have "national treasure" recognition like for Yan Xin and Juemin, the teacher of Michael Lomax and others.

 

As for who does the tests - I'm sure it varies depending on the political situation but there have been many different qigong institutes set up in China working with the universities, etc.

 

http://www.zenwellness.com/masters-council/

 

Here's another one:

 

 

 

Master Ping Zhen Cheng

Ping Zhen Cheng graduated from Beijing Chinese National Qigong Science Institute

 

Growing up in Hebei Province of North China, the cradle of the Internal Martial Arts, the birth place of Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji, he is a lineage successor of Masters that are national treasures of China. He is one of the few teachers in the US that has inherited the vast knowledge of all three internal styles as well as various healing arts of both Buddhist and Taoist origins. As a coach of national Kung Fu Champions in both forms and Taiji push-hands, he has appeared in the Tai Chi Journal, Newsday, Fox40’s Morning News. He conducts workshops around the world.

 

so obviously the government has to approve of that.

 

There are I think only five actual qigong practices that are approved by the government of China.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I know one is the 8 Brocades practice.

 

I could look it up.

 

But yeah the Chinese government tries to control qigong closely and of course conducts mass torture against the banned qigong movement Falun Gong and the Tibetan followers of the Dalai Lama and other banned qigong schools.

[voidisyinyang]

Effie Chow criticizes the "national treasure" level by the Chinese Government - says the government controls their movements and tries to control the qigong master  - like how Yan Xin can no longer do mass healings - and also the Chinese government is against the female qigong masters.

 

here's another "national treasure"

 

 

Grandmaster Wu had a life long tenure in Qi Gong research on hundreds of diseases and injuries. (Grandmaster Wu's Eye Qi Gong® 吳氏明目氣功 went through an extensive 3-year study, conducted 4,000 documented cases and with the help of a 100-person medical team. They obtained success rates of over 90%.  In 1995, Grandmaster Wu was honourably selected as a member of national Chinese Qi Gong Talent Bank - honoured as a  "National Treasure of China" - the higheset official Qi Gong title in China. )   

 

Grandmaster Weizhao Wu's lineage.

 

http://www.masterteresa.com/

 

New to me - looks cool.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[KenBrace]

They have "national treasure" recognition like for Yan Xin and Juemin, the teacher of Michael Lomax and others.

 

As for who does the tests - I'm sure it varies depending on the political situation but there have been many different qigong institutes set up in China working with the universities, etc.

 

http://www.zenwellness.com/masters-council/

 

Here's another one:

 

 

 

so obviously the government has to approve of that.

 

There are I think only five actual qigong practices that are approved by the government of China.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I know one is the 8 Brocades practice.

 

I could look it up.

 

But yeah the Chinese government tries to control qigong closely and of course conducts mass torture against the banned qigong movement Falun Gong and the Tibetan followers of the Dalai Lama and other banned qigong schools.

 

I seriously doubt they take the notion of chi very seriously. More than likely they view it as a traditional/religious practice with no real significance that has the ability to make money. Because of this I doubt they test masters to make sure they're "abilities" are legit.

[opendao]

And here i went and thought a masters true ability was to teach someone in a way and method that suits that disciple so they might build upon the transmission and further their own learning even when their master is gone. What is there to achieve really?

 

good point. And speaking about that "living treasure", the students are available all the time to ask and see what they could learn... Many people did that, so I know it's possible.

 

It's not the only criteria, but mostly it's not very important what some teacher can do (any miracles etc), but what this teacher can do with you. And Wang is on the market for many years, he is a public figure, with photos, "thousands of students" etc, so if somebody really wants proofs, they can find them. I see no any reason to do it though, and sell your house just to see the Guru... This qigong and meditation craze will end up as other waves before, many so-called "living treasures" are old enough, their students got very little, and it's obvious now that their teaching is not Dao just by the results they achieved not. 

 

"A rhinoceros has no place to plunge its horn into him, a tiger has no place to fasten its claws onto him, soldiers have no place to stab him with swords. 

It is so, because to him there is no death". (DDJ, Lao Zi)

 

Where's all that? Or at least any understanding of that? Just fantasy books and claims a la Castaneda...

[voidisyinyang]

I seriously doubt they take the notion of chi very seriously. More than likely they view it as a traditional/religious practice with no real significance that has the ability to make money. Because of this I doubt they test masters to make sure they're "abilities" are legit.

 

your personal doubt is the most valued commodity on the planet - the Westernized consumer skeptically dismissing a product without really nothing anything about it.

 

http://www.qigongresearchsociety.com/

 

 

Founder and Director of the QiGong Research Society, Master FaXiang Hou is a certified and highly accomplished Master of Medical QiGong and Traditional Chinese Medicine....He has undergone rigorous clinical testing of his healing ability in China, and has thereby been deemed a Certified Master in the elite International Qigong Science Association, as well as numerous other Chinese QiGong associations.

[idiot_stimpy]

There is one person in this thread that has first hand contact with the man in question. Maybe you should be asking them?

[voidisyinyang]

A number of scientists, represented by Professor Qian Xuesen, including the top leader of Chinese qigong affairs for past ten years, the late General Zhang Zhenhuan (a retired general formerly in charge of the Commission on Science and Industry for National Defense and the first president of Chinese Research Society on Qigong Science), have continuously supported scientific research on qigong and consistently acknowledged the results set forth in various scientific qigong papers.

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:lvnApDPuavAJ:www.item-bioenergy.com/infocenter/chinesechiresearch.doc+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

So that gives an idea of who in the government is behind the national certification process....

[voidisyinyang]

Mr. He YonJin's name was entered into the Dictionary of the Contemporary Qigong Master in China.

    Same year, Mr. He's name and achievements were documented in the book Scientific Chinese---Chinese Talented Experts Database (Collection Version). Code:1008DC3 Meanwhile, his attainments are to be compiled into the book Contemporary Qigong Doctors in China (bilingual).

 

http://www.chinaqigong.net/english/qgsk/hyj.htm

 

that's from 1998 - so 1999 there was the big crackdown on mass qigong movements.

 

I don't know how much that changed the official testing of qigong masters in China....

[voidisyinyang]

Mr. Shen Chang is a special member of China Qigong Science Research Association and a member of China Medical and Qigong Science Association. Mr. Shen compiled and published several works in the past several years, including Shen Chang Human Science and Technology and Theory and Practice of Shen Chang Human Science and Technology in 1993. and Scientific Achievement of Shen Chang Human Science and Technology in 1997. Mr. Shen held a technical seminar and demonstration at Designing institute affiliated to Beijing Commission for Science, Technology & Industry for National Defense on December 10, 1993, which attracted over 1,000 audience. A total of 56 doctors organized a notary team to monitor the curative effects of Mr. Shen's human science and technology on breast tumor. According to a mini sample survey on the audience, with coverage of 79 persons, tumor cells in 49 patients' bodies have been completely eliminated, while another 24 patients saw the tumor cells in their bodies being effectively controlled. Forty-five days later, all these patients have attended a physical examination, which proved the high curative effectiveness of Mr. Shen's human science and technology.

 

http://www.chinaqigong.net/english/qgsk/sc.htm

 

http://www.chinaqigong.net/english/index.htm

 

yeah that's a new website for me - list of qigong masters in China.

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.yuantzerenxue.org/yuan-tze-ren-xue/yuan-tze-bio/

 

 

 

During these years Yuan Tze made important contributions to Qigong healing, teaching and research and in 1996 the Chinese Qigong Research Association, the highest governing body of Qigong in China, invited him to become a Special Member, along with only two other Zhineng Qigong practitioners, Professor Pang Ming and Yuan Zhen Zhai (now deceased).

At the end of 1996, in order to further develop himself and to promote Zhineng Qigong, Yuan Tze left Huaxia and traveled widely in China over a period of several months. He set up local Qigong Associations and did teaching and healing, traveling as far as Vietnam. Yuan Tze then settled in Yanjiang in Guandong Province, where he set up and ran the Zhineng Qigong Healing and Training Centre and the Zhineng Qigong Research Association. During this same period he also set up a health center in Zhuhai, Guandong Province.

He continued to treat various illnesses with outstanding results, helping people with their spiritual development as well as their physical and mental problems. People in these areas embraced him with gratitude and love for the work he did, and with great respect. The Yanjiang practice closed at the end of 1998; the practice in Zhuhai continued until early 2001 when Yuan Tze left to further his Taiji.

His achievements during these years attracted the attention of a number of other organizations and he was invited to make contributions in the following ways:

• Chairman of Qigong Culture Development Committee for South China for over two years;
• An editor of the Dictionary of Contemporary Qigong Masters;

[voidisyinyang]

To verify the reliability of his external Qigong, Master He collaborated with some highly regarded universities and research centers to conduct many successful experiments. In a recent study, Master He teamed up with professors from the Tumor Research Center of Zhongshan University of Medicine in Guangzhou to test the effect of external Qigong on laboratory mice infected with liver cancer. In the experiment, Master He emitted external Qi over ten mice for 10 minutes on four separate sections. The study showed an average of more than 70 percent reduction of cancer cells (in size and weight) in the Qigong group of mice, compared to the simulation group and control group. The same experiment was repeated three times, with the average rate of inhibition of cancerous cells at 70 to 80 percent.   The slides of these cancer cells in different groups received histological examination under electronic microscopes. The results showed that the cancer cells and nucleus in the Qigong group were shrunk greatly; nucleus and plasma were reduced; mitochondria developed swelling, vascular degeneration, disorderly and broken crest; apoptosis body was developed.   These results indicated that Qigong could induce cellular apoptosis of liver cancer and have significant inhibitory effects on cancer in mice.

 

http://www.nianli.ca/html/more_on_master_he.html

[voidisyinyang]

qigong fever gives more details on the national restructuring of qigong

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=RXeuibmD2dsC&pg=PA340&lpg=PA340&dq=Chinese+Modern+Qigong+Masters+Dictionary&source=bl&ots=aMHjthekGX&sig=mJmBa2B2ls0kp8IXgOsIXhiEVE0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IJNvVd3tB4eoyATQsoHADQ&ved=0CD4Q6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=national&f=false

 

googlebook link

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.silveryhat.com/a-true-story-of-the-18th-dragon-gate-sect-qigong-taoist-wang-li-ping/

 

Here's the Qi Magazine story on Wang Liping.

[KenBrace]

http://www.chinaqigong.net/english/qgsk/hyj.htm

 

that's from 1998 - so 1999 there was the big crackdown on mass qigong movements.

 

I don't know how much that changed the official testing of qigong masters in China....

 

What sort of tests do they put them through? If the most powerful government in the world accepts chi as a reality then why does the majority of the scientific community disregard it as non-sense? Why is this not in science text books? Why aren't we seeing scientific papers regarding chi and it's baring on the natural world?

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftseqigongcentre.com%2Ffileadmin%2Fuser_upload%2Fgraphics_from_client%2FResources%2FArticles%2FSifu%2520-%2520Articles%2FDaoism%2FWangLiPing_Q43.pdf&ei=rJtvVeG5EY6PyASvy4HACg&usg=AFQjCNEcFBP2R2JGEfyQHvoyWZNFLm3frw&sig2=qBPNdxU48wdeFsB63R8SXQ&bvm=bv.94911696,d.aWw&cad=rja

 

pdf link, part 3 of Qi Magazine on Wang Liping

[voidisyinyang]

What sort of tests do they put them through? If the most powerful government in the world accepts chi as a reality then why does the majority of the scientific community disregard it as non-sense? Why is this not in science text books? Why aren't we seeing scientific papers regarding chi and it's baring on the natural world?

 

Because as I stated - qi is inherently based on non-dual philosophy whereas Western science uses symmetric-based logic so that infinity is inherently a closed materialistic mathematics, aka irrational magnitude.

 

So the Chinese tests were not considered rigorous by Western standards.

 

But then the "gold standard" Western science tests aka randomized controlled are also rejected by the skeptics.

 

Why? Because Western science itself is not objective - it is also its own materialistic religion based on Freemasonry essentially.

 

We are raised to think Western science is objective but that is a lie.

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.qigongparis2015.com/en/event.html

[voidisyinyang]

https://books.google.com/books?id=AkcSBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=International+Qigong+Science+Exchangement+Center,&source=bl&ots=oIwCLMWIa_&sig=NWASynmd-CJYTGYpgJqQnnu1FRs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SJ5vVe7SAsG-sAW7xIO4Aw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=International%20Qigong%20Science%20Exchangement%20Center%2C&f=false

 

pdf link

 

Chinese Medical Qigong

 By Tianjun Liu

 

That googlebook page goes over the change from the science of qigong being official in 1985 and then in 2000 it was cracked down on.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[KenBrace]

Because as I stated - qi is inherently based on non-dual philosophy whereas Western science uses symmetric-based logic so that infinity is inherently a closed materialistic mathematics, aka irrational magnitude.

 

So the Chinese tests were not considered rigorous by Western standards.

 

But then the "gold standard" Western science tests aka randomized controlled are also rejected by the skeptics.

 

Why? Because Western science itself is not objective - it is also its own materialistic religion based on Freemasonry essentially.

 

We are raised to think Western science is objective but that is a lie.

 

Science is most certainly not a religion. 

 

Regarding the tests, do you have any idea what exactly is involved?

Edited June 4, 2015 by KenBrace