Not Two...

[Jeff]

Not Two - The Faith Mind Sutra - Hsin Hsin Ming

by Sima,Third Zen Ancestor

 

The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of things is not understood the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.

 

The Way is perfect like vast space where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject that we do not see the true nature of things.
Live neither in the entanglements of outer things, nor in inner feelings of emptiness.
Be serene in the oneness of things and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves.
When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity your very effort fills you with activity.
As long as you remain in one extreme or the other you will never know Oneness.                    

 

Those who do not live in the single Way fail in both  activity and passivity, assertion and denial.
To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality; to assert the emptiness of things is to miss their reality.
The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from the Way.
Cut off all talking and thinking, and there is nothing you will not be able to know.
To return to the root is to find the meaning, but to pursue appearances is to miss the source.
At the moment of inner enlightenment there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness.
The changes that appear to occur in the empty world we call real only because of our ignorance.
Do not seek the truth; only cease to cherish opinions.
 

Do not remain in the dualistic state avoid such pursuits carefully.
If there is even a trace of this and that, right and wrong, the Mind-essence will be lost in confusion.
Although all dualities come from the One, do not be attached even to this One.
When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way, nothing in the world can offend, and when a thing can no longer offend, it ceases to exist in the old way.         

 

When no discriminating thoughts arise, the old mind ceases to exist.
When thought objects vanish, the thinking-subject vanishes,as when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.
Things are objects because of the mind; the mind is such because of things.
Understand both as originally one emptiness.
In Emptiness the two are the same, and each contains the ten thousand things.
If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine you will not be tempted to prejudice and opinion.                            

 

To live in the Great Way is neither easy nor difficult, but those with limited views
Their minds get lost, the faster they hurry, the slower they go, and clinging cannot be limited; even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment is to go astray.
Just let things be in their own way and there will be neither coming nor going.

Obey the nature of things, your own nature, and you will be free, easy, and undisturbed.
When thought is in bondage the truth is hidden, for everything is murky and unclear, and the burdensome practice of judging brings annoyance and weariness.
What benefit can be derived from distinctions and separations?                              

 

If you wish to move in the One Way do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas.
Indeed, to accept them fully is identical with true Enlightenment.
The wise man strives to no goals but the foolish man fetters himself.
There is one Dharma, not many; distinctions arise from the clinging needs of the ignorant.
To seek Mind with the discriminating mind is the greatest of all mistakes.          

Rest and unrest derive from illusion; with enlightenment there is no liking and disliking.
All dualities come from ignorant inference.
They are like dreams of flowers in the air: foolish to try to grasp them.
 

Gain and loss, right and wrong: such thoughts must finally be abolished at once. 

If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease.
If the mind makes no distinctions, the ten thousand things are one essence.
To understand the mystery of this essence is to be released from all entanglements.           

See the ten thousand things as equal and return to true nature.
Without any distinctions there can be no comparisons.                                       

Stop and there is no motion.

Move and there is no stillness.                                                                         

Without motion or stillness, how can a single thing exist?                                     

 

In true nature there are no goals or plans.                                                               

In the mind before thinking no effort is made.
Doubts and worries vanish and life in true faith is restored.
With a single stroke we are freed from bondage; nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing.
All is empty, clear, self-illuminating, with no exertion of the mind's power.         

In the mind without effort, thinking cannot take root.                                             

In the true Dharma world there is no self or other.                                                 

To come directly into harmony with this reality just say  “Not two.”
“Not two” includes everything. 

Nothing is separate.                                                                                    

 

Enlightened beings everywhere all return to the Source.
Beyond time and space a single thought is ten thousand years.                   

Emptiness here, Emptiness there, but the infinite universe is always before you.
Infinitely large is infinitely small: No boundaries, no differences.
So too with Being and non-Being.
Don't waste time in doubts and arguments that have nothing to do with this.     

 

One thing, all things: move among and intermingle, without distinction.
To live in this realization is to be without anxiety.                                            

When you see things like this, You are already complete.                                       

Trust and Mind are not two. Not-two is Trust inMind.   

The Way is beyond all words: Not past, not future, not present.

[Geof Nanto]

The Way is beyond all words: Not past, not future, not present.

 

Also phrased as "The Way is without beginning, without end; without past, without future".

 

I like this too...."The Dao in an infinite sphere of which the center is everywhere and the circumference is nowhere."

 

However, without 'two' can consciousness exist? 

 

 We find ourselves on different sides

Of a line nobody drew

Though it all may be one in the higher eye

Down here where we live it is two

 

(Leonard Cohen)

Edited June 5, 2015 by Darkstar

[dawei]

Not Two - The Faith Mind Sutra - Hsin Hsin Ming

by Sima,Third Zen Ancestor

 

During my brief interest in Zen, I really liked this work...

 

Given some other thread talk about 'virtue', I thought this was appropriate:

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/fm/fm.htm

 

When you really know the original mind, there is no difference in dying in one place and being born in another – how much less could there be any distinction of sin and virtue there! Thus the body-mind after all does not exist; we are fundamentally free from skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. Therefore his disease disappeared and his original mind appeared.

 

  In expounding the essence of the teaching, Sengcan said, "The supreme Way is without difficulty – it is only averse to discrimination." In conclusion he said, "There is no way to talk about it – it is not of the past, future, or present." Really there is no inside or outside, no in between – what would you choose, what reject? You cannot take, you cannot leave. Once you have no hate or love, you are empty and clear. At no time do you lack, nothing is extra.

 

Yet even so, investigate throughly to reach the point of ungraspability, to arrive at the realm of ungraspability. Without becoming nihilistic, not being like wood or stone, you should be able to "strike space and make an echo, tie lightning to make a form." Carefully observe the realm where there are no tracks or traces, yet don't hide there. If you can be like this, even though "that is not the present phenomena, it is not within reach of ear or eye," you should see without hindrance, you should comprehend without deviation.

 

Can we add a discerning word to this story?

 

            Essential emptiness has no inside or outside –

            Sin and virtue leave no traces there.

            Mind and Buddha are fundamentally thus;

            The Teaching and Community are clear.

 

(Transmission of Light 129-131 Sengcan)

[Geof Nanto]

Despite, or perhaps because of living in Zen centres in years long gone by, I confess to some significant aversion to these words from Zen masters. Where my aversion comes from I'm not sure, because my time in these places was friendly and productive. I suspect I rebel against the certainty of their words; words that to me sound clever but really say nothing at all.

 

As an example, what does this mean in practice? "Thus the body-mind after all does not exist; we are fundamentally free from skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. Therefore his disease disappeared and his original mind appeared." Is he saying embodied life is a disease? I prefer the Daoist emphasis on embodiment and affirmation that every experience has its reality. It all exists - existence has multiple levels, multiple perspectives - or the word 'existence' has no meaning. 

 

I know others find these words inspiring, and I’m not writing to offend or oppose; I’m simply presenting my personal perspective. I suspect that all these teachings from different traditions are like medicines to redress specific personal imbalances, and these words are obviously not the right medicine for me.  Hence they are only of relative truth; they have relevance only as a counterbalance to opposing tendencies within a practitioner. Yet the teachers preach them as if they are absolute truths, and I suspect that's what I rebel against. 

 

Personally, I’m much more comfortable with the open ended ramblings of someone like Zhuang Zhou. For him, all our so called 'truths' are only relative.  And I'm even more comfortable alone in environments where the de of the natural environment is strong, and the teachings are silent. Yet I like words and ideas too; it's all real and necessary for me. 

Edited June 5, 2015 by Darkstar

[dawei]

Despite, or perhaps because of living in Zen centres in years long gone by, I confess to some significant aversion to these words from Zen masters. Where my aversion comes from I'm not sure, because my time in these places was friendly and productive. I suspect I rebel against the certainty of their words; words that to me sound clever but really say nothing at all.

 

As an example, what does this mean in practice? "Thus the body-mind after all does not exist; we are fundamentally free from skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. Therefore his disease disappeared and his original mind appeared." Is he saying embodied life is a disease? I prefer the Daoist emphasis on embodiment and affirmation that everything is real, even the unreal. It all exists, or the word 'existence' has no meaning. 

 

 

quick comment.    Try to replace disease with dis-ease... what do you now feel?

[Geof Nanto]

 

quick comment.    Try to replace disease with dis-ease... what do you now feel?

 

I'm very familiar with this usage from years of attending Narcotics Anonymous meetings when I was much younger and recovering from heroin addiction. So, although it changes the context above into something somewhat more favourable, my fundamental reservations still remain. 

 

Edit: If this thread was started in the Buddhist section, I would never question it. However, as it's under Daoist discussion I think it's relevant to critique it from a Daoist perspective.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Darkstar

[Jeff]

I'm very familiar with this usage from years of attending Narcotics Anonymous meetings when I was much younger and recovering from heroin addiction. So, although it changes the context above into something somewhat more favourable, my fundamental reservations still remain. 

 

Edit: If this thread was started in the Buddhist section, I would never question it. However, as it's under Daoist discussion I think it's relevant to critique it from a Daoist perspective.

 

In the context originally described, I think the meaning of disease relates to a disease of the mind or better said an obscuration of the mind with the belief that one is only the body mind.

 

Thus, your statement becomes something like...

 

"Thus the body-mind after all does not exist; we are fundamentally free from (not just) skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. Therefore his (obscuration of mind) disappeared and his original mind appeared."

[Marblehead]

Edit: If this thread was started in the Buddhist section, I would never question it. However, as it's under Daoist discussion I think it's relevant to critique it from a Daoist perspective.

And that's why I'm here reading the posts.

 

I see no real conflicts so far.

[3bob]

I don't hear the heavy duty parts of that quoted material (which is not unlike so much I've read in other forms or in other teachings) as being very practical or applicable for many of us who are mostly in the trench's...

 

In other words it's all fine and dandy for a detached master to speak from an enlightened soapbox using mostly abstract ramblings related to the non-dualistic transcendent that already is, etc.. , but lets face it many of us are fighting and struggling in the trench's,  thus matters on how to deal with trench warfare (so to speak) are more practical and applicable for many of us - for instance: how about nitty- gritty instructions and examples on how to take the correct, non-abstracted steps that make up a ten thousand mile journey since such a journey is not one step of ten-thousand miles. (even if ten-thousand mile glances ahead are sometimes possible that still doesn't mean our feet have walked that walk and is where we now stand!)

Edited June 5, 2015 by 3bob

[idiot_stimpy]

I don't hear the heavy duty parts of that quoted material (which is not unlike so much I've read in other forms or in other teachings) as being very practical or applicable for many of us who are mostly in the trench's...

 

In other words it's all fine and dandy for a detached master to speak from an enlightened soapbox using mostly abstract ramblings related to the non-dualistic transcendent that already is, etc.. , but lets face it many of us are fighting and struggling in the trench's,  thus matters on how to deal with trench warfare (so to speak) are more practical and applicable for many of us - for instance: how about nitty- gritty instructions and examples on how to take the correct, non-abstracted steps that make up a ten thousand mile journey since such a journey is not one step of ten-thousand miles. (even if ten-thousand mile glances ahead are sometimes possible that still doesn't mean our feet have walked that walk and is where we now stand!)

 

 

Surrender to what is.

 

Rest as your being.

[thelerner]

In other words it's all fine and dandy for a detached master to speak from an enlightened soapbox using mostly abstract ramblings related to the non-dualistic transcendent that already is, etc.. , but lets face it many of us are fighting and struggling in the trench's,  thus matters on how to deal with trench warfare (so to speak) are more practical and applicable for many of us - for instance: how about nitty- gritty instructions and examples on how to take the correct, non-abstracted steps

I agree, but you can find much practical stuff in Zen writings, particularly contemporary ones.  Its just that they're less quotable.  I get my zen inspired dharma lessons from infinitesmile.org, podcasts from Michael McAllistair.

Edited June 9, 2015 by thelerner

[Jeff]

I don't hear the heavy duty parts of that quoted material (which is not unlike so much I've read in other forms or in other teachings) as being very practical or applicable for many of us who are mostly in the trench's...

 

In other words it's all fine and dandy for a detached master to speak from an enlightened soapbox using mostly abstract ramblings related to the non-dualistic transcendent that already is, etc.. , but lets face it many of us are fighting and struggling in the trench's,  thus matters on how to deal with trench warfare (so to speak) are more practical and applicable for many of us - for instance: how about nitty- gritty instructions and examples on how to take the correct, non-abstracted steps that make up a ten thousand mile journey since such a journey is not one step of ten-thousand miles. (even if ten-thousand mile glances ahead are sometimes possible that still doesn't mean our feet have walked that walk and is where we now stand!)

 

So does that mean that you fundamentally agree with the quoted text (sort of as a baseline)? Just think that baseline should be expanded into something useful for the day to day trenches?

[Brian]

I don't hear the heavy duty parts of that quoted material (which is not unlike so much I've read in other forms or in other teachings) as being very practical or applicable for many of us who are mostly in the trench's...

 

In other words it's all fine and dandy for a detached master to speak from an enlightened soapbox using mostly abstract ramblings related to the non-dualistic transcendent that already is, etc.. , but lets face it many of us are fighting and struggling in the trench's,  thus matters on how to deal with trench warfare (so to speak) are more practical and applicable for many of us - for instance: how about nitty- gritty instructions and examples on how to take the correct, non-abstracted steps that make up a ten thousand mile journey since such a journey is not one step of ten-thousand miles. (even if ten-thousand mile glances ahead are sometimes possible that still doesn't mean our feet have walked that walk and is where we now stand!)

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. I found the sutra very meaningful from the perspective of my everyday and quite chaotic life but I know I wouldn't have a year ago -- the last year has been a profoundly educational and growth-oriented year for me on several levels. I am not "there yet," obviously, but "there" is now a place I can comprehend and can begin to approach whereas a few years ago I would have found the described terrain so alien as to be unrecognizable.

[3bob]

some common sense Zen: "before enlightenment chop wood and carry water, after enlightenment chop wood and carry water"

 

btw, a little spin off of the above that I came across, "don't chop water when you should carry wood"

Edited June 5, 2015 by 3bob

[3bob]

So does that mean that you fundamentally agree with the quoted text (sort of as a baseline)? Just think that baseline should be expanded into something useful for the day to day trenches?

 

I wouldn't say that although it would obviously be a baseline for the person who wrote it and those that dig it.

[dawei]

but lets face it many of us are fighting and struggling in the trench's, 

 

Fair enough... what are you fighting and struggling with?

 

Someone cuts you off in traffic; the bank line is too long; kids won't listen to you; work deals are not working out. ???

[3bob]

a modest group shrink is fine with me, as in "us" 

[Jeff]

Also phrased as "The Way is without beginning, without end; without past, without future".

 

I like this too...."The Dao in an infinite sphere of which the center is everywhere and the circumference is nowhere."

 

However, without 'two' can consciousness exist? 

 

 We find ourselves on different sides

Of a line nobody drew

Though it all may be one in the higher eye

Down here where we live it is two

 

(Leonard Cohen)

 

Consciousness may still exist, but it would certainly be more boring without "two".

[3bob]

and one might ask if that which is connected to the absolute is never disconnected (and can never be disconnected) how long will it exist...?

[Jeff]

and one might ask if that which is connected to the absolute is never disconnected (and can never be disconnected) how long will it exist...?

 

The OP answers that question fairly succinctly....

 

Emptiness here, Emptiness there, but the infinite universe is always before you.

Infinitely large is infinitely small: No boundaries, no differences.

So too with Being and non-Being.

Don't waste time in doubts and arguments that have nothing to do with this.

One thing, all things: move among and intermingle, without distinction.

[3bob]

.

Edited June 7, 2015 by 3bob

[3bob]

anyway: a Buddhist quote located in a Taoist part of the forum given by a person who also shares tons of Christian material after which someone else gives terminology from Hinduism - often par for course at this site.

Edited June 7, 2015 by 3bob

[Sebastian]

Just practiced today, and thought of the title of this thread, which was extremely helpful.

Think about any issue you may be currently be having.... then say, Not Two.

For example, let's take disease.

 

If you are One with your disease, then where is the disease ?

 

You find that disease isn't something external you need to resist, it's just one of your body's energetic patterns, it's your body itself.

So what the heck is there to fight against ? It's just you. Your body's energy can transform if you let it.

 

Now take something not attached to your body, like a significant other.

 

Although you may feel physically separate, the issue you are facing is always your own, even if "the other" caused it.

 

Not two.

 

The other is in you and you are in the other.

 

One.

[Marblehead]

anyway: a Buddhist quote in a Taoist forum by a person who shares tons of Christian material after which some else gives terminology from Hinduism - often par for course at this site.

Hehehe.  Not much really changes, does it?  Short term, that is.

 

DaoBums is all embracing.

[Jeff]

anyway: a Buddhist quote in a Taoist forum by a person who shares tons of Christian material after which some else gives terminology from Hinduism - often par for course at this site.

 

A good quote is a good quote, no matter the tradition.