Is joy (bliss) a marker on the way?

[Bindi]

I believe that joy (bliss) is a marker on the way to ‘enlightenment’, I wonder if others would agree, or if they feel it is unnecessary.

"Mature awakening is sat chit ananda – absolute bliss consciousness. Typically, the freedom and peace comes first and the bliss a little later. No bliss means not fully established yet."

 

@davidya

 

 

Edited June 6, 2015 by Bindi

[Silent Answers]

I would say yes, but then again, that is my goal, if any.

[LAOLONG]

bliss is bliss,no bliss is no bliss, that is enlightenment.

[3bob]

I'd say Yes, with joy probably being the better term in that "bliss" can have the connotation of being "blissed out" like on some kind of induced high via whatever drugs or passing energies. 

 

eternal unbind-able Freedom is Joy without it's counterpart of a sorrowful rebinding or re-bound. (that takes place in the many worlds of duality)

Edited June 6, 2015 by 3bob

[doc benway]

I believe that joy (bliss) is a marker on the way to ‘enlightenment’, I wonder if others would agree, or if they feel it is unnecessary.

 

"Mature awakening is sat chit ananda – absolute bliss consciousness. Typically, the freedom and peace comes first and the bliss a little later. No bliss means not fully established yet."

 

@davidya

 

 

 

 

My opinion is yes.

Joy (bliss) is one aspect of our natural state. It is always there waiting for us.

When we don't experience it, it is because it is obscured, not because it is not present.

Direct contact with our natural state is associated with feelings that far exceed what we generally experience as joy in our daily lives.

This is why I think the word bliss is often used to label the feeling - to connote the sheer immensity.

[vonkrankenhaus]

These things can be just temporary feelings.

 

Enlightenment implies "made lighter", upwards, lofty - this is vertical, and relate to Transcendence, wherein we transcend dualities (horizontal) and see the whole (One).

 

This requires Freedom, to Transcend.

 

There is no Freedom without Health, as anyone who has been sick knows.

 

There is no Happiness without Freedom.

 

So playing life in Happiness - this is not possible without mastery of first Health, and of Freedom.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[doc benway]

hi steve, nice to see you.

 

Beyond joy, isn't there something that you can experience but have difficulty describing? A name finally came to me the other moth. "Nothingness".

 

Or, more accurately, a place between nothing and something. An unnameable residence.

 

Hi Rainbowvein,

Equally nice to "see" you too!

 

My present way of thinking of and labeling the ineffable involves three inseparable components or characteristics - space, clarity, and warmth; or emptiness, awareness, and great bliss.

 

Space is that nothingness you are pointing to - it has no beginning, no end, no boundary, no limits - it's beyond the conceptual.

Clarity is that characteristic of space that is self knowing - awareness (I acknowledge that some don't like this term).

Warmth is the indescribable joy, the great bliss, that is a characteristic of the inseparability or union of space and clarity. 

 

These three aspects or characteristics are not separate, they are simply conceptual perspectives convenient for communication.

 

As always, take everything I say with a heaping tablespoon of salt, sugar, uni, or whatever antidote you prefer.

Warm regards,

[doc benway]

These things can be just temporary feelings.

 

Enlightenment implies "made lighter", upwards, lofty - this is vertical, and relate to Transcendence, wherein we transcend dualities (horizontal) and see the whole (One).

 

This requires Freedom, to Transcend.

 

There is no Freedom without Health, as anyone who has been sick knows.

 

There is no Happiness without Freedom.

 

So playing life in Happiness - this is not possible without mastery of first Health, and of Freedom.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

In the spirit of collaboration, as opposed to criticism -

 

Can one find freedom even within that sickness, happiness in bondage?

That is true freedom, no?

[Jetsun]

There is bliss of the body which can happen to anyone, I bet even Hitler had it a few times. And there is bliss from the fact that everything arises from and passes into perfect peace, which is a different sort of bliss that most people talk about. So it depends on what sort of bliss you are talking about, bliss of the body isn't necessarily indicitive of anything, in some paths they call it major hindrance and obstacle because it can cause avoidance.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Jetsun

[Rara]

I tasted bliss a few times not so long ago...

 

It is the most important thing I have ever felt and certainly an indicator that all is moving in the right direction.

 

I don't know what enlightenment is...but I can only assume all does not end there. Like the flick of a switch, "oh I'm enlightened now"?? I'm unsure. Bliss was temporary, but will never be forgotten!

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Can one find freedom even within that sickness, happiness in bondage?

That is true freedom, no?"

-----

 

Of course - the seed of true Freedom is found at the deepest pit of slavery.

 

Yes - all of this is relative, YinYang.

 

If you can find true Freedom in sickness and bondage, then this has changed you.

 

Does anyone have a story about how they discovered "bliss" in the depths of despair?

 

How they discovered true Health in the depths of sickness?

 

And how they have followed this despair and sickness to Freedom?

 

I have heard many such stories.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Rara]

hi steve, nice to see you.

 

Beyond joy, isn't there something that you can experience but have difficulty describing? A name finally came to me the other moth. "Nothingness".

 

Or, more accurately, a place between nothing and something. An unnameable residence.

I don't think words could justify it.

 

I tried to talk to my mum about it once...she thought I meant "happiness". No, happiness is all well and good, and we can experience it daily if we allow ourselves too. Bliss or joy, or any higher state is really indescribable for me...it feels unfair. I guess because it was so out of this world, one that hasn't had a taste cannot relate.

[doc benway]

Re:

-----

"Can one find freedom even within that sickness, happiness in bondage?

That is true freedom, no?"

-----

 

Of course - the seed of true Freedom is found at the deepest pit of slavery.

 

Yes - all of this is relative, YinYang.

 

If you can find true Freedom in sickness and bondage, then this has changed you.

 

Does anyone have a story about how they discovered "bliss" in the depths of despair?

 

How they discovered true Health in the depths of sickness?

 

And how they have followed this despair and sickness to Freedom?

 

I have heard many such stories.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

This is my daily practice. 

[3bob]

I'll take the liberty to say that the "First Noble Truth" turned on its head is enlightenment... 

 

(being that many here have a Buddhist terminology bias)

Edited June 6, 2015 by 3bob

[dawei]

I'll take the liberty to say that the "First Noble Truth" turned on its head is enlightenment... 

 

(being that many here have a Buddhist terminology bias)

 

And for those who don't, what does it mean

[doc benway]

I'll take the liberty to say that the "First Noble Truth" turned on its head is enlightenment... 

 

(being that many here have a Buddhist terminology bias)

 

From a Dzogchen view, I would respectfully disagree as enlightenment transcends both samsara and nirvana.

[3bob]

I see your point Steve although one could say the historic Buddha gave the first Noble Truth as a truism and in that context if such was turned on its head we would then have the truism of enlightenment. Btw, does Dzogchen supersede the teachings of the historic Buddha on Nirvana?

[doc benway]

I see your point Steve although one could say the historic Buddha gave the first Noble Truth as a truism and in that context if such was turned on its head we would then have the truism of enlightenment. Btw, does Dzogchen supersede the teachings of the historic Buddha on Nirvana?

 

I don't believe so - any contradiction can generally be explained through the two truths doctrine.

On the other hand, Dzogchen is generally referred to as the highest vehicle. 

[Bindi]

Can you describe the joy/bliss you experience? 

 

"Typically, the freedom and peace comes first and the bliss a little later."

 

Many years ago, I had a taste of 'peace', I found my way from feeling particularly miserable to feeling the peace stage for a day, as a contrast it was incredibly nice, it was like a jack hammer being turned off, and the silence that ensued was wonderful. I remember at the end of that day my normal thinking process finally resumed, and I could almost see the words as I thought them float into the emptiness, and start to pile up there. Not long after, I was back to normal but thankfully the jack hammer didn't turn on again

 

As for joy, that was in a dream, when the pool filled up with clear water after flushing all the mud from out the pipes beneath the pool, I caught a branch overhanging the pool as I wasn't to stay in the water, and as I came up out of the water, I started laughing and felt 'joy'.

 

Water in dreams = emotions, and this dream really explains my path, working through and clearing emotions, and then having to rise above even the clear emotions, which must lead to joy   

[Bindi]

 

Does anyone have a story about how they discovered "bliss" in the depths of despair?

  

-VonKrankenhaus

 

I read the story of a woman whose daughter had been taken and brutally murdered, she was a devout Christian who obviously went through hell, and after much grief and time she found a deep and abiding peace that she said she wouldn't have found in the normal course of things.

 

But she also said that she would prefer her daughter back to the peace she had found.

 

This was decades ago, but I always remember it as a particularly poignant story.

[Brian]

Bliss is good and all but remember that attachment to bliss is still an unnecessary attachment.

[Bindi]

Bliss is good and all but remember that attachment to bliss is still an unnecessary attachment.

 

When joy/bliss arrives will be soon enough to know what comes next

[idiot_stimpy]

 

When joy/bliss arrives will be soon enough to know what comes next

 

What comes after bliss/joy?

[Bindi]

What comes after bliss/joy?

 

I could quote from any number of texts, but I don't personally know, as I haven't arrived at bliss yet, and I've had no information regarding beyond bliss. Rainbowvein had a suggestion about what might be beyond bliss.

[Bearded Dragon]

Beyond this, beyond that. You get there then want something else. Come onnnnn.

 

Give it up.