Is joy (bliss) a marker on the way?

[idiot_stimpy]

Beyond this, beyond that. You get there then want something else. Come onnnnn.

 

Give it up.

 

What is the best thing to have? What is something I can never be sick of, or never tire of?

[C T]

What is the best thing to have? What is something I can never be sick of, or never tire of?

Equanimous poise

[Bearded Dragon]

What is the best thing to have? What is something I can never be sick of, or never tire of?

 

The best thing to have is what you have right now, because that's all you ever have. You could say that life is like Keith Emerson's synth from back in the day (see below for a picture form of the chaos of life). You just go about your life plugging things into different holes. Bliss is when you plug in a certain way and the notes sounds great. That is not the way. The way is understanding the holes (seeing potential) and then plugging in according to the time (adapting to potential impersonally). So really it's not about markers and it's not about effects, but rather just doing what needs to be done without such a thought of consequence or effect (Because once you've done it there's no going back, so effects are moot). If the free adaptation to potential in present circumstances results in bliss then so be it. Otherwise it's not worth consideration. 

 

[Brian]

Moog is located here in Asheville, BTW.

 

The technology has changed but the principles have not.

[liminal_luke]

Bliss is good and all but remember that attachment to bliss is still an unnecessary attachment.

 

I know this is true, and a necessary reminder for those heaven-bent on ultimate truth.  Still, as problems go, one could do worse than attachment to abiding bliss.

[Boy]

I don't "feel" but -know- that it's completely unnecessary.  I hope you don't mind.

[Jeff]

For those who are interested in the Buddhist definitions, Joy is definitely a step on the path and the description of the first bhumi. The Avataṃsakasūtra refers to the following ten bhūmis:

 

 

The first bhūmi, the Very Joyous. (Skt. Pramudita), in which one rejoices at realizing a partial aspect of the truth;

The second bhūmi, the Stainless. (Skt. Vimala), in which one is free from all defilement;

The third bhūmi, the Light-Maker. (Skt. Prabhakari), in which one radiates the light of wisdom;

The fourth bhūmi, the Radiant Intellect. (Skt. Archishmati), in which the radiant flame of wisdom burns away earthly desires;

The fifth bhūmi, the Difficult to Master. (Skt. Sudurjaya), in which one surmounts the illusions of darkness, or ignorance as the Middle Way;

The sixth bhūmi, the Manifest. (Skt. Abhimukhi) in which supreme wisdom begins to manifest;

The seventh bhūmi, the Gone Afar. (Skt. Duramgama), in which one rises above the states of the Two vehicles;

The eighth bhūmi, the Immovable. (Skt. Achala), in which one dwells firmly in the truth of the Middle Way and cannot be perturbed by anything;

The ninth bhūmi, the Good Intelligence. (Skt. Sadhumati), in which one preaches the Law freely and without restriction;

The tenth bhūmi, the Cloud of Doctrine. (Skt. Dharmamegha), in which one benefits all sentient beings with the Law (Dharma), just as a cloud sends down rain impartially on all things.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Jeff

[Brian]

Very interesting. Thank you, Jeff.

[Bindi]

For those who are interested in the Buddhist definitions, Joy is definitely a step on the path and the description of the first bhumi. The Avataṃsakasūtra refers to the following ten bhūmis:

 

 

The first bhūmi, the Very Joyous. (Skt. Pramudita), in which one rejoices at realizing a partial aspect of the truth;

The second bhūmi, the Stainless. (Skt. Vimala), in which one is free from all defilement;

The third bhūmi, the Light-Maker. (Skt. Prabhakari), in which one radiates the light of wisdom;

The fourth bhūmi, the Radiant Intellect. (Skt. Archishmati), in which the radiant flame of wisdom burns away earthly desires;

The fifth bhūmi, the Difficult to Master. (Skt. Sudurjaya), in which one surmounts the illusions of darkness, or ignorance as the Middle Way;

The sixth bhūmi, the Manifest. (Skt. Abhimukhi) in which supreme wisdom begins to manifest;

The seventh bhūmi, the Gone Afar. (Skt. Duramgama), in which one rises above the states of the Two vehicles;

The eighth bhūmi, the Immovable. (Skt. Achala), in which one dwells firmly in the truth of the Middle Way and cannot be perturbed by anything;

The ninth bhūmi, the Good Intelligence. (Skt. Sadhumati), in which one preaches the Law freely and without restriction;

The tenth bhūmi, the Cloud of Doctrine. (Skt. Dharmamegha), in which one benefits all sentient beings with the Law (Dharma), just as a cloud sends down rain impartially on all things.

 

“The Very Joyous” (in which one rejoices at realizing a partial aspect of the truth) cannot be compared to the singular emotion of joy/bliss, though indeed Buddhism does not describe the state of liberation as pure bliss.

 

Hinduism on the other hand sees liberation as including an endless state of bliss.

 

So the question seems to go beyond any religion or philosophy’s opinion.

Perhaps the better question is ‘what is your personal experience or expectation of joy/bliss.'

Edited June 8, 2015 by Bindi

[Brian]

<snip>

The fifth bhūmi, the Difficult to Master. (Skt. Sudurjaya), in which one surmounts the illusions of darkness, or ignorance as the Middle Way.

<snip>

Can someone more knowledgeable than I am help me with this concept? Is the idea that one possible distraction from the Way is the belief that there is "a path through darkness" or is the distraction the idea that darkness is separate from the Way, or that "darkness" itself is just an illusion? Or something completely different...

 

I think the idea is to leave darkness behind but I'm not sure I understand.

[Boy]

The bliss you seek lies beyond the personal, Bindi. Expectations schmexspectations.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Boy

[dawei]

Can someone more knowledgeable than I am help me with this concept? Is the idea that one possible distraction from the Way is the belief that there is "a path through darkness" or is the distraction the idea that darkness is separate from the Way, or that "darkness" itself is just an illusion? Or something completely different...

 

I think the idea is to leave darkness behind but I'm not sure I understand.

 

You might find this also interesting [by Jeff], and post there:

 

Stages of Progression/Enlightenment

[RiverSnake]

Useful video: 

 

  Edited June 8, 2015 by OldChi

[Bindi]

The bliss you seek lies beyond the personal, Bindi. Expectations schmexspectations.

To say ‘the bliss I seek lies beyond the personal’ doesn’t seem to disprove the concept of joy/bliss as a marker of enlightenment/liberation, it does however suggest to me that bliss is related to higher mind and emotion, in other words to that which is ‘beyond the personal’.

 

This however doesn’t seem to concur with your earlier post in which you said you knew bliss was completely unnecessary.

 

 

 

 

 

edited to remove the goal post shift

Edited June 8, 2015 by Bindi

[Jeff]

You might find this also interesting [by Jeff], and post there:

 

Stages of Progression/Enlightenment

 

This stages list is an older perspective, but the Joy described as the first bhumi would roughly translate to level 7 - calm mind.

[Boy]

You are now "moving the goalposts". Sorry, I haven't got time for games. However, "to be happy" is truly the supreme goal. Good luck with that!

[Bindi]

You are now "moving the goalposts". Sorry, I haven't got time for games. However, "to be happy" is truly the supreme goal. Good luck with that!

Yes I think I did move the goal posts, sorry about that. When I said ‘the better question would be what is your personal experience or expectation,’ it was really just a response to Jeff’s post, I was actually asking him specifically for his personal opinion as opposed to a Buddhist quote.

[Jeff]

“The Very Joyous” (in which one rejoices at realizing a partial aspect of the truth) cannot be compared to the singular emotion of joy/bliss, though indeed Buddhism does not describe the state of liberation as pure bliss.

 

Hinduism on the other hand sees liberation as including an endless state of bliss.

 

So the question seems to go beyond any religion or philosophy’s opinion.

Perhaps the better question is ‘what is your personal experience or expectation of joy/bliss.'

 

Guess it depends on one's definition of the truth. From my personal experience, what the first bhumi is describing regarding very joyous is the same as what one would call opening the crown chakra in classical Hindu/yoga approaches. Bliss has different meanings in different traditions. In some cases it describes something like infinite silence, in others, more orgasmic like energy flows, what does the word bliss mean to you?

[C T]

Boy is right. Bliss (as understood in Eastern spiritual contexts) cannot be confined to a 'self'. 

[Jeff]

Can someone more knowledgeable than I am help me with this concept? Is the idea that one possible distraction from the Way is the belief that there is "a path through darkness" or is the distraction the idea that darkness is separate from the Way, or that "darkness" itself is just an illusion? Or something completely different...

I think the idea is to leave darkness behind but I'm not sure I understand.

In the definition, darkness just really means something like "obscured view", and so yes one leaves behind or moves beyond such beliefs/perspectives (or view). The 5th in other translations is also called "hard to teach". This is because at this level, one is now radiating wisdom/light (4th) and it can directly affect those around you. A new level of interaction with other sentient beings begins. This new level is something that can't really be taught, and also these new connections can become overwhelming, resulting in a falling back. If one continues, the early stage sambhogkaya begins to manifest (6th) and later it becomes increasingly unbounded (7th - gone afar). Edited June 8, 2015 by Jeff

[Brian]

In the definition, darkness just really means something like "obscured view", and so yes one leaves behind or moves beyond such beliefs/perspectives (or view). The 5th in other translations is also called "hard to teach". This is because at this level, one is now radiating wisdom/light (4th) and it can directly affect those around you. A new level of interaction with other sentient beings begins. This new level is not something that can't really be taught, and also these new connections can become overwhelming, resulting in a falling back. If one continues, the early stage sambhogkaya begins to manifest (6th) and later it becomes increasingly unbounded (7th - gone afar).

Thank you, Jeff! This is very helpful.

 

While you were posting this reply, I was opening a new thread on the topic in the Buddhist Discussions sub-forum. I'll include this response there, too.

[3bob]

Brian, One might ask, "where does light end and darkness begin" (or that wording could be turned around the other way)

[Josama]

I believe that joy (bliss) is a marker on the way to ‘enlightenment’, I wonder if others would agree, or if they feel it is unnecessary.

 

"Mature awakening is sat chit ananda – absolute bliss consciousness. Typically, the freedom and peace comes first and the bliss a little later. No bliss means not fully established yet."

 

@davidya

 

 

 

Yes this is definitely true for me, however I wouldn't judge by bliss as that can be misleading and dangerous, but rather by compassion and wisdom. Edited June 8, 2015 by Josama

[Bindi]

Guess it depends on one's definition of the truth. From my personal experience, what the first bhumi is describing regarding very joyous is the same as what one would call opening the crown chakra in classical Hindu/yoga approaches.

 

ok, thanks.

 

Bliss has different meanings in different traditions. In some cases it describes something like infinite silence, in others, more orgasmic like energy flows, what does the word bliss mean to you?

 

 

 

In my initial post I referred in the quote to bliss beyond freedom and peace, to 'absolute bliss consciousness'. This is not my experience, but seems to capture the sense of joy that I felt in my dream.

 

 

 

 

 

I imagine this bliss to be an abiding bliss, certainly not a more temporal orgasmic like energy flow, or a momentary meditation induced state.

 

 

 

[Jeff]

ok, thanks.

 

In my initial post I referred in the quote to bliss beyond freedom and peace, to 'absolute bliss consciousness'. This is not my experience, but seems to capture the sense of joy that I felt in my dream.

 

I imagine this bliss to be an abiding bliss, certainly not a more temporal orgasmic like energy flow, or a momentary meditation induced state.

 

 

If you would, consider the possibility that your bliss and energy are just two sides of the same coin. As mental clarity increases, your bliss becomes increasingly abiding (and energy flows become as smooth as silk).