Is joy (bliss) a marker on the way?

[ChiForce]

is that so?  Or that may be so for Buddhists in general but I wouldn't make the major assumption that you are for schools and masters that are not part of the Buddhist Dharma. 

 

Btw, "mind / reality" is at least a contradiction in terms and or lower level relative reality to many.

Yes because I am speaking from experience....unless some of you are talking about enlightenment without experiencing it...

 

Oh, "bliss?"  That is so new age.    What is bliss?  Is it still in the realm of the 6 senses?  If so, it is impermanent. 

[Bindi]

Hmmm. It depends on what you read...

 

From Buddhahood Without Meditation:

From The Yeshe Lama: Lama Chonam and Sangye Khandro

From Golden letters:

There is bliss in the three first jhanas a too.

Do you see the bliss referred to in these quotes as being an endless state though?

[Bindi]

Does this include mental clarity for you, is that separate or combined ?  

 

For myself, mental clarity is related to the process of dismantling lower manas (mind), the minor chakra found to the right of the heart, and reforming it as upper manas (mind), at the level of ajna (third eye) chakra. I understand this process to be mainly concerned with breaking down persona at lower manas, which begins to be developed in us at a very young age, which is then reformed at upper manas in mature awareness and consciousness. Upper manas is also the place that the higher senses can become active.

 

Persona;

[ pəˈsəʊnə, pəː- ]

 

The aspect of someone's character that is presented to or perceived by others.

 

So I understand mental clarity as being achieved at ajna level, but emotional clarity as being achieved at heart level.

 

I definitely see mental clarity (upper manas) and emotional clarity as being interrelated though, with mental clarity playing an important role in achieving emotional clarity.

[ChiForce]

Do you see the bliss referred to in these quotes as being an endless state though?

Hehehehe....you can not have an endless bliss if this bliss is the result of your 6 senses.  Your bliss would only still exist in the samsara!!!!!!  Endless bliss in the realm of Samsara == equal enlightenment?  Absurd!!!!!    If you are accomplished enough to finish your first Jhana and moving on to the second Jhana, your bliss would fade.  Not understand the nature of the mind....you will go after this bliss when it is no longer there.  The better you can recognize the impermanent nature of this bliss, the better you can move on.  

 

You sound like I don't know what bliss is.  I have my Kundalini energy rising when I was 18.  BTW, no drugs were used, EVER.    A full blown one with the kundalini energy reaching to the crown chakra.  Third eye was open.  The whole body was on fire.  I had this blissful experience for about 15 days.  I am in my late 30s.  That was blissful but very short lived.

Edited June 13, 2015 by ChiForce

[Bindi]

Hehehehe....you can not have an endless bliss if this bliss is the result of your 6 senses.  Your bliss would only still exist in the samsara!!!!!!  Endless bliss in the realm of Samsara == equal enlightenment?  Absurd!!!!!    If you are accomplished enough to finish your first Jhana and moving on to the second Jhana, your bliss would fade.  Not understand the nature of the mind....you will go after this bliss when it is no longer there.  The better you can recognize the impermanent nature of this bliss, the better you can move on.  

 

You sound like I don't know what bliss is.  I have my Kundalini energy rising when I was 18.  BTW, no drugs were used, EVER.    A full blown one with the kundalini energy reaching to the crown chakra.  Third eye was open.  The whole body was on fire.  I had this blissful experience for about 15 days.  I am in my late 30s.  That was blissful but very short lived.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you do not describe the state of liberation as pure bliss, from a personal or Buddhist perspective.

 

Hinduism on the other hand does see liberation as including an endless state of bliss.

 

If all roads lead to the same enlightenment, I wonder how you explain this difference?

[ChiForce]

 

So you do not describe the state of liberation as pure bliss, from a personal or Buddhist perspective.

 

Hinduism on the other hand does see liberation as including an endless state of bliss.

 

If all roads lead to the same enlightenment, I wonder how you explain this difference?

Which Hinduism?  I am done with this conversation.  You are pushing for your own generalized understanding of what Hinduism is without knowing which specific school of thoughts.  I am telling you about my EXPERIENCE in the Kundalini energy rising (probably the most esoteric form of spiritual experience in Hinduism) and using sound understanding of the nature of the Dharma and Skandhas.  And you are still chasing that illusion of eternal bliss with some fancy reasoning. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by ChiForce

[Tibetan_Ice]

Do you see the bliss referred to in these quotes as being an endless state though?

Bindi,

There are different kinds of bliss, and most are not permanent.

 

The bliss in the lower material jhanas is ephemeral. It doesn't last. And, one should not strive to remain in that bliss, rapture, ecstasy for it prevents you from going to the next material jhana. By the time you hit the fourth jhana, you have abandoned directed thought, sustained thought and the rapture/ecstasy.

 

The bliss of kundalini is more like sexual bliss. You can taste it, it is not hard to tell the difference. The Buddhists tend to view kundalini as a passing energetic phenomenon and don't pay much attention to it, nor do they cultivate is specifically. Buddhism is more about stilling the "winds" or dissolving the "winds" rather than stirring them up, for most of the "winds" are hinderences.

 

I believe, yes, that primordial consciousness, the ground of all being is permanent bliss, but I wouldn't call it bliss. It is more like LOVE. Sacred Love. I can't prove it because I am not enlightened, but I have had experiences where this clear liquid like water gushed out from my heart and out of my eyes and I became everything (the grass, the trees, the park bench, everyone and everything. I believe that that was Samantabadhra, the primordial Buddha, primordial consciousness, the ground of all being.

 

In Dzogchen, the primordial state is looked upon as being permanent bliss, if you want to take the translators' choice of words and defined contexts. See: http://www.amazon.com/Marvelous-Primordial-State-Elio-Guarisco/dp/8878341290/ref=pd_sxp_redirect

 

In there it says that the primordial state is pure bliss, over and over and over again.

 

The necessary component in all of this is the highest boddhicitta, from the heart source.... Pure awareness/love...

Edited June 13, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[C T]

at the gross level, male & female in union gives rise to fleeting, physical bliss.

 

at the subtle level, heart (wisdom) & mind (compassionate activity) in union gives rise to transcended bliss, manifesting in countless degrees of intensity, albeit this is still on the relative level. Within this level exists countless means by which humans attempt to escape the rounds of old habits (aka samsara aka spiritual paths aka awakening paths). But here, there is always that recognition and a yearning for something more than what exists on the gross plane of existence. 

 

the innermost 'secret' phase, surpassing all relative phenomena, which is already a seed present in the above two, but is completely unrecognizable at the gross level, and can gradually be glimpsed (sensed) at the subtle level, arises from the merging of relative activity (in Vajrayana parlance known as 'Method', which covers all conventional forms of practice vis a vis the preliminaries, or any other activity aimed at transcending mundane existence) with uninterrupted, incorruptible prajna (which is Wisdom realizing emptiness).  Without prajna most if not all attempts at transcendence will not reach ultimate fruition. With Prajna even incomplete Method or insufficient activity quickly transforms into great realization. 

 

Thats why some paths are quicker to bear fruit, while in some others, practitioners need to do more hard grafting. Hence, in terms of the Buddhist Yanas, the Mahayana is known as the Great Path because its followers enter the path through training, albeit beginning at the relative level, in both conceptual wisdom practices and bodhicitta activity. Because it begins there at the conceptual level, often these followers are known (in literature) as fortunate sons and daughters... they train in order to mature their conceptual understanding while having already recognized the ultimate nature (rigpa). This is important because the goal becomes clear, and there will be no mistake of what ultimate fruition is. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by C T

[z00se]

How can anybody know my bliss is the same as your bliss? The 1st, 2nd, or 34th level of bliss? Which bliss is which? How can we judge? How can we answer a question with different peoples personal explanations of a certain chemical cocktail within their blood?

 

How much joy does one feel? They can only judge by previous experience. Who has a stronger experience than who? How can one argue objectively if there is nothing objective to measure?

 

Is bliss a marker on the way? On the way to where?

 

If bliss is where you want to go, i would agree a little bliss is a marker along the way, deep bliss an even bigger marker, bliss that makes it hard to breath, probably even a bigger marker. How big can the markers get? How long is a piece of string?

 

If you drink 10 beers and can't walk properly, but if i were an alcoholic and drank 20 beers and act normal... who is more drunk?

 

Is bliss a marker towards enlightenment? No more than falling over and grazing a knee. Then does grazing both knees bring me any closer? Not likely.

 

Enlightenment is depth of realization. Only by realizing more can one be further upon an enlightened path.

[Silent Answers]

How can anybody know my bliss is the same as your bliss? The 1st, 2nd, or 34th level of bliss? Which bliss is which? How can we judge? How can we answer a question with different peoples personal explanations of a certain chemical cocktail within their blood?

 

How much joy does one feel? They can only judge by previous experience. Who has a stronger experience than who? How can one argue objectively if there is nothing objective to measure?

 

Is bliss a marker on the way? On the way to where?

 

If bliss is where you want to go, i would agree a little bliss is a marker along the way, deep bliss an even bigger marker, bliss that makes it hard to breath, probably even a bigger marker. How big can the markers get? How long is a piece of string?

 

If you drink 10 beers and can't walk properly, but if i were an alcoholic and drank 20 beers and act normal... who is more drunk?

 

Is bliss a marker towards enlightenment? No more than falling over and grazing a knee. Then does grazing both knees bring me any closer? Not likely.

 

Enlightenment is depth of realization. Only by realizing more can one be further upon an enlightened path.

Unlike the beer (unless you're Irish), bliss is something you're born with. I'm using bliss here as a filler word, too... but it's referring to general connectedness. It's not peace, or calmness, and not a thing gained... you just simply drop the act. The unnecessary pressure dissolves. You cannot be any more or less of it.

 

How can you measure that which does not exist?

 

In my mind the question is the same as "Will I feel relief if I've been diagnosed with an illness, only to find out that it was a joke." Why would we need to go quantifying that relief? That it is experienced is enough.

 

The grazing the knee thing was good

[3bob]

For what it's worth I'd say that some Buddhist practitioners here are not fanatics, thus have no need or attachment to spouting off about their experience of this or that from a superior type of stance... such also don't mind if we have a level playing field for discussion, nor do they try to downgrade through use of Buddhist based teachings and correlations the short comings of other schools or systems as they see it.  Bravo to same for "Right Speech" according to the founder of their teachings.

 

Back to Bindi's question:

"I wonder how you explain this difference"  

 

No one can force any explanation along the lines you are asking about, speak your peace (and or listen to another's) and then move on -following your path, or possibly be caught in futility for an "x" amount of time.

 

Btw, I suggest study of the Chandogya Upanishad if you haven't already done so, and it to can not be forced.

Edited June 13, 2015 by 3bob

[Heartlumination]

One thing that I would like to suggest is do not get attached to the bliss.  My body and mind had this lesson to learn.

 

  

Practicing the Kunlun System through 3 levels diligently 1 hour in the morning 1 hour in the evening.  After about 2 years of increased feelings of peace and joy I had blissful rapture which brought an unexplainable and overwhelming experience which left me in complete joy and ecstasy for days.  Having never felt this good in my life it became my craving and as the feeling subsided a little bit over the next few days, instead of surrendering in practice I was seeking.  I had 2 more raptures over the next few months.  Then eventually the bliss left and I was left with no feeling except for an ungroundedness, heart palpitations which led me to the hospital for a ridiculous panic attack.  That led to anxiety and then to depression with tripped out vision.  What a ride!  

 

Here I sit 8 months later, much better and still dealing with depression.  They say that bliss or life experience can be considered a Pendulum,  the higher it swings it must come back the other way.  The higher into light you swing you must also go back the other direction equally.  What I have found is don't attach any mind to the any experience wether bliss or not, no pendulum.  The heart sutra says it best "Attainment with nothing to attain".  The ego loves to take the ride with you and will want validation that it is doing the right thing, internal talk that says we just experienced bliss, did you feel that? Are we on the right track?  Only strengthening the ego and eventually it will have to be broken down and let go. The the you who you identify with and know will have to go and leave way for your being to shine forth.  The ego in me is still being broken down.  Hence my many words on what I think I figured out.  Acceptance, surrender and no mind are the way and the middle path, never extremes with practice or anything.  The more we desire the more it evades us.  The more we resist the more it persists.  Just be.

 

I hope someone might get something from this.  I am open to comments, suggestions and guidance for any of those who may have gone through something similar and came out the other end.

 

Humbly a fellow being on the journey.

[Bud Jetsun]

Peace and bliss are indistinguishable when either is complete.  

 

Imagine a state where ones thoughts by choice are exclusively rooted in Love, now take away the "thought". 

[thelerner]

One thing that I would like to suggest is do not get attached to the bliss.  My body and mind had this lesson to learn.

 

  

Practicing the Kunlun System through 3 levels diligently 1 hour in the morning 1 hour in the evening.  After about 2 years of increased feelings of peace and joy I had blissful rapture which brought an unexplainable and overwhelming experience which left me in complete joy and ecstasy for days.  Having never felt this good in my life it became my craving and as the feeling subsided a little bit over the next few days, instead of surrendering in practice I was seeking.  I had 2 more raptures over the next few months.  Then eventually the bliss left and I was left with no feeling except for an ungroundedness, heart palpitations which led me to the hospital for a ridiculous panic attack.  That led to anxiety and then to depression with tripped out vision.  What a ride!  

 

Here I sit 8 months later, much better and still dealing with depression.  They say that bliss or life experience can be considered a Pendulum,  the higher it swings it must come back the other way.  The higher into light you swing you must also go back the other direction equally.  What I have found is don't attach any mind to the any experience wether bliss or not, no pendulum.  The heart sutra says it best "Attainment with nothing to attain".  The ego loves to take the ride with you and will want validation that it is doing the right thing, internal talk that says we just experienced bliss, did you feel that? Are we on the right track?  Only strengthening the ego and eventually it will have to be broken down and let go. The the you who you identify with and know will have to go and leave way for your being to shine forth.  The ego in me is still being broken down.  Hence my many words on what I think I figured out.  Acceptance, surrender and no mind are the way and the middle path, never extremes with practice or anything.  The more we desire the more it evades us.  The more we resist the more it persists.  Just be.

 

I hope someone might get something from this.  I am open to comments, suggestions and guidance for any of those who may have gone through something similar and came out the other end.

 

Humbly a fellow being on the journey.

Thank you for sharing. 

 

No guidance, only a question.. What (if anything) would you do differently, knowing what you now know?

[Heartlumination]

Thank you for sharing. 

 

No guidance, only a question.. What (if anything) would you do differently, knowing what you now know?

The only thing that I would do differently is not take practicing so seriously.  Conduct practice in the manner of drinking water, naturally and without trying.  

 

Being too strict and diligent in practicing progresses one quickly along what ever path they have chosen.  But in my case trying to hard made the process of having my identity or ego being broken down a very unnerving experience hence the long time of purification that I have underwent and still am transforming.  I have practiced other disciplines over the past 12 years which have yielded a betterment of my person in the world or so I have thought.  Feeling as though I had progressed in a manner as to where I was not living much from my ego but from my spirit.  I have realized however that I had only been strengthening my ego due to my attachment to the many experiences that I have had.  The last two years led me down the path of Kunlun which was the straw that broke the egos back.  I have had to learn and am still learning.  I no longer practice Kunlun for I realized that there is no need to be in a hurry.  The more you hurry the longer you will wait.  Plus there is a tinge of fear still to overcome. I let the changes continue to take place in my energetic body as I acclimate and transform into what it is that I am, am with out the I.

 

Practice keeps us busy so we don't get sidetracked with the pleasures and glorious illusions that this reality has to offer. Is practice necessary....perhaps. Of extreme importance, not at all.  Don't put it on a pedestal.  It seems because being in the west we are not exposed to such things, practices or people along such paths.  So we can tend to think that what we are reading or practicing is some super magical thing when in reality it is as natural as the sun rising and then going down again. So no attachment to practice, don't take it so seriously, don't be in a hurry, and don't try so hard or even try not to try so hard.  Just do it with ease. 

[Bindi]

 

For myself, mental clarity is related to the process of dismantling lower manas (mind), the minor chakra found to the right of the heart, and reforming it as upper manas (mind), at the level of ajna (third eye) chakra. I understand this process to be mainly concerned with breaking down persona at lower manas, which begins to be developed in us at a very young age, which is then reformed at upper manas in mature awareness and consciousness. Upper manas is also the place that the higher senses can become active.

 

Persona;

[ pəˈsəʊnə, pəː- ]

 

The aspect of someone's character that is presented to or perceived by others.

 

So I understand mental clarity as being achieved at ajna level, but emotional clarity as being achieved at heart level.

 

I definitely see mental clarity (upper manas) and emotional clarity as being interrelated though, with mental clarity playing an important role in achieving emotional clarity.

 

I disagree with what I have written here, and would now say that emotional clarity is also only achieved at ajna level, by bringing  consciousness of the minor chakra to the left of the heart (hrit) up to its higher form at Ajna.

 

I think Ajna chakra consciousness herself orchestrates how both lower manas consciousness (right/male/mind) and hrit consciousness (left/female/emotion) can travel up to her.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Bindi

[de_paradise]

A person can go through hundreds of blissful experiences on the way, so it may be a marker, but of nothing special. Many blissful experiences are due to "friction", which is when your filthy body gets exposed to some higher cleansing energy,  you feel that reaction in the form of bliss. But it really only signifies how defiled you really are.

 

Of course the psychological component of cleansing process is the "revelation of evil" where you get to notice how its actually your egoism is actually the source of your pain., depression, anger, etc  But because you are on the path, and understand that pain is meant for your benefit, to push you to a higher level, you can be more dissociated from those feelings, and the memory of the bliss and how the bliss was derived (letting go) beckons you forward. Kind of like the creator playing some carrot and stick game on us to help us make progress. 

[Kubba]

I believe that joy (bliss) is a marker on the way to ‘enlightenment’, I wonder if others would agree, or if they feel it is unnecessary.

 

"Mature awakening is sat chit ananda – absolute bliss consciousness. Typically, the freedom and peace comes first and the bliss a little later. No bliss means not fully established yet."

 

@davidya

 

 

 

I would say that hughe relieves of blissfull, orgasmic like sensations are a good sighns. Sometimes comes with jhanas - when you learn jhanas you can racces it anytime you want. Take a look at cats - wherever they sit or lie down and are not focussed they jump into bliss of samadhi. Human are capable of the same when not lost in thinking process.

 

Then the pain from relieved self-contractions comes and you can notice that it also happends within the bliss. So you se that the bliss is everlasting, you merge in it but simply you did not know so far, it is close to the bliss of orgasm, or in other way when cumming were open enought to experience this bliss.

The bodily bliss of orgasmic like sensations comes and can last for some time then it goes away. Sometimes I was taking a shower and then it just came from amasement and I was out for 2 hours, sometimes barely able to breath and having spasm in the whole body.

With time, blissfull feelings are comming more and more often and you just are more familiar with it, or simply you don't pay to much attention - you just okay, no excitement about it. Its like having a honeymoon with your own body, first youre amased, then you become used to it.

 

For example when approaching first jhanas you feel bliss, but then the next jhana comes and you almost cant handle it, but then you open more and even more bliss is comming. You forget the time, you open your eyes and see that 2 hours has passed...

Sexual things and arousal is more pleasurable than so far - you just melt like butter.

 

 

Bliss is a good sigh, can have so much of it that you almost cant handle. You are more and more joyful. You can have orgasms like sensations and bliss just out of enjoyment- or simply it comes when you let go more and more, being relieved always feels wonderfull

Edited August 9, 2015 by Kubba

[3bob]

an implosion to truth explodes with joyus freedom!

[gendao]

500 is the level of love. The energetic frequency and truth in this statement "What is held in the mind as in visioning tends to manifest" calibrates at 505. So manifesting is easier after level 500.

Living life from the level of Love, or Above, manifests your life, your way. If your Energetic Frequency is below 500, and unfortunately most people are, it's the next level you have to achieve to create your life the way you want it. 540 is the level of Joy, it's the level where healing occurs.

Briefly, here are the energy levels outlined by David Hawkins:

20: Shame

30: Guilt

50: Apathy

75: Grief

100: Fear

125: Desire

150: Anger

175: Pride

200: Courage

250: Neutrality

310: Willingness

350: Acceptance

400: Reason

500: Love

540: Joy

600: Peace

700-1000: Enlightenment

"On our scale of consciousness, there are two critical points that allow for major advancement. The first is at 200, the initial level of empowerment: Here, the willingness to stop blaming and accept responsibility for one's own actions, feelings, and beliefs arises - as long as cause and responsibility are projected outside of oneself, one will remain in the powerless mode of victimhood. The second is at the 500 level, which is reached by accepting love and nonjudgemental forgiveness as a lifestyle, exercising unconditional kindness to all persons, things, and events without exception."

15) Joy (540): The dominant emotion is serenity and compassion. This is the inner joy that arises from every moment of existence rather than from an external source. This is the level where saints, advanced spiritual students and healers dwell. At this level, one is characterized by enormous patience and an unwavering positive attitude in the face of harsh adversities. The world is seen as one of perfection and beauty. Individuals are motivated to dedicate themselves to the benefit of life rather than for specific individuals. Here, the process of transfiguration occurs (emanating of radiance from the person). The life-view the individual holds is completeness (of the world). Near death experiences have the effect of temporarily bumping people into this level.

Joy – A state of pervasive, unshakable happiness. Eckhart Tolle describes this state in The Power of Now. The level of saints and advanced spiritual teachers. Just being around people at this level makes you feel incredible. At this level life is fully guided by synchronicity and intuition. There’s no more need to set goals and make detailed plans — the expansion of your consciousness allows you to operate at a much higher level. A near-death experience can temporarily bump you to this level.

[Tibetan_Ice]

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Yes, I'll bet $he has a lot of joy...

[Spotless]

Bliss is a difficult word - in that it is as 3bob mentioned - equated with blissed-out and lose headedness - and also often drugs.

 

But that said I find it to be the experience of walking in radiance.

 

One can see the light eminating from the vehicle you walk in, your feet do not notice the weight of your body as you float in exquisite lightness and light and the warmth of the glow - it is very very very fine and otherworldly yet profoundly present. The warmth is not a "normal warmth" it is not so much from within or without - it is everywhere and does not have a heat aspect to it - but more as a connectedness aspect but that is a poor description - it is somewhat the feeling of being in the presence of overwhelming beauty - you are within overwhelming beauty.

 

It is often very noticeable to others.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Spotless

[Bud Jetsun]

The hazards of bliss are attachment.

 

Bliss is not enlightenment, and it is it's own type of potent drug, one you choose to take with mindfulness rather than a tea or pipe. 

 

Bliss is a nice state to enjoy, but still egocentric and an easy place to plateau.

[Spotless]

The hazards of bliss are attachment.

 

Bliss is not enlightenment, and it is it's own type of potent drug, one you choose to take with mindfulness rather than a tea or pipe.

 

Bliss is a nice state to enjoy, but still egocentric and an easy place to plateau.

This is entirely dependent on ones definition of Bliss - and when the state is referred to.

 

Your statement is somewhat true given that the idea of bliss attained is predicated on the stipulation noted in the original posters question wherein she says "on the way" - meaning prior to Awakening. But - she also did not infer it was enlightenment and I know of no one that does - it is a sort of straw man arguement - the original post asks if it is a marker.

 

Also - you infer (actually you state) that it is ego centric - this is entirely not nessicarily true - and in fact typically not true from those that have temporarily entered this state by most accounts. So it may have been true for you if that was your experience but it is not necessary to project your shortcomings in this experience of yours onto the entire phenomenon.

 

The bliss I referred to in the post before yours is not the bliss you are referring to.

 

In a very real sense - another definition of bliss may be that one has no desire - one walks within a satiated and non-anxious state - it is quite a blissful state. Awakened individuals will attest to this - perhaps they may not all meet your definition of enlightenment - but all who are truly Awakened do report this and it is a form of bliss - it brings each of us to our knees in gratitude - constant gratitude.

 

Why not give us an idea in your words regarding what you are defining as Bliss?

Edited August 10, 2015 by Spotless

[Bud Jetsun]

Dualistic bliss, the non-fearing state of ego or ego-peace.

 

Non-dual states like Nirvana are ineffably beyond bliss.  Still Nirvana is not enlightenment, just another mindful choice induced state of indescribably complete peace. 

 

These states are inside anyone's reach to experience at this moment should they chose to experience and appreciate Now 'wholeheartedly'. 

 

A nice state to experience, and liberation from choosing to suffer.