Neidan vs Alchemy Split - Rant

[opendao]

Thanks Dawei, today being friday and all, for starters I would invite ya' all to familiarize yourselves with a fantastic paper by a very respectable scholar 

 

Inner Alchemy: Notes on the Origin and Use of the Term neidan

Farzeen Baldrian-Hussein

 

its a joy to read

 

1) very respectable scholar, did he practice any alchemy? No.

 

2) he is honest and mentions many times that nothing can be said for sure just based on textual researches.

 

3) he mixes various random quotes, from various schools. Their "weight" from a practical point is very different, and they use the same terms in absolutely different contexts. For the initiated in the Tradition it's all clear, but for scholars it creates confusions they cannot overcome.

 

So far nothing interesting and "fantastic". Usual problem in the daology: how to connect Huang Di, Lao Zi, and Neidan. They don't understand the tradition, they don't understand even that Dao De Jing is an answer, because EVERYTHING Neidan uses is there. Other texts they don't even try to touch...

Edited June 6, 2015 by opendao

[opendao]

Fangshu Xuanzhong Cuizuan (The Collected and Edited Hinges among the Dark Pivots for the Art of the Chamber, 989 AD) (Fangshu,hereafter). This is one of the texts for the "new" art of the bedchamber started to emerge during the Song dynasty, and is one of the text to have influenced the Ming sexual arts. It explains the purpose of the sexual techniques, which are specifically called neidan (the Inner Alchemy) in this text, by saying as follows: "it is because my body becomes the same object with heaven and earth, and obtain the true breath of the yang,which intersects and inducts within my body by ascending and descending.”

 

(Sex and Immortality: A Tentative Study on How Chinese Sexual Art Impressed upon the Idea to Become Better-Being in Religious Contexts. Sumio Umekawa, Department of History, School of Oriental and African Studies,University of London)

 

 

Neidan, Waidan and pair cultivation are based on the same principles. And if one text uses "neidan" = "sexual techniques", it means very little. There are many texts that separate Neidan and pair cultivation, and express that pair cultivation is not the same as sexual techniques ("art of the bedchamber"). Some praise Neidan as a single cultivation and discard pair cultivation at all. Because they couldn't find the method. But let's wait, I hope we'll see something more "fantastic" that can prove that Neidan sucks and TTexts has discovered a real "internal alchemy that works".

Edited June 6, 2015 by opendao

[opendao]

Neidan, or internal alchemy^[1] (simplified Chinese: 內丹术; traditional Chinese: 內丹術; pinyin: nèidān shù), is an array of esoteric doctrines and physical, mental, and spiritual practices that Taoist initiates use to prolong life and create an immortal spiritual body that would survive after death.^[2] Also known as Jindan ("golden elixir")

 

 

What is neidan semantically? Literally it means internal elixir. I.e it is not a practice, it is an object. To say that "I practice neidan" is incorrect, since an object can not be practiced.

 

A pharmacologist does not practice aspirin, he produces aspirin. A carpenter does not practice a table, he practices carpentry to make a table.

 

steve has already pointed out that it's wrong. I would add that this:

 

 

• practice (v.)
• c. 1400, "to do, act;" early 15c., "to follow or employ; to carry on a profession," especially medicine, from Old French pratiser, practiser "to practice," alteration of practiquer, from Medieval Latin practicare "to do, perform, practice," from Late Latin practicus "practical," from Greek praktikos "practical" (see practical).

   

  From early 15c. as "to perform repeatedly to acquire skill, to learn by repeated performance;" mid-15c. as "to perform, to work at, exercise." Related: Practiced; practicing.

 

So Neidan can be practised in English language, because it's a process of repeated attempts to create the cinnabar-Dan, which again on its own is an alive process, not some dead object.

 

Obviously, because you don't practice it, you don't know. Instead of asking, you create ridiculously pedantic theory. I wish you were so pedantic when you misread that Eva Wong's text and read other texts upside down just to be not like anyone else. Don't worry, you're already proved many times that are absolutely unique.

 

Yet this incorrect word usage is universal both among scholars and the practitioners. Lets turn to the original texts to see what is practiced there if not neidan? For example in 钟吕传道集  a 24 page long medieval text neidan is mentioned 3 times

 

e.g. 身病、年病，所治之药而有二等：一曰内丹，次曰外丹。the body sickness, the age sickness is cured by two: neidan and waidan. Always as an object to be produced, never as a production process. So what exactly the neidanists do, to produce neidan? They manipulate bodily energies to produce neidan. How is this manipulation named? Curiously, this process does not have a specific Chinese name.

 

The process is called 炼丹: "make pills of immortality (as a Taoist practice)". You know TTexts, there are special big books called dictionaries... Open at least one and you will find dozens of names. 

 

Again zero. It seems we won't see any strong arguments...

[dawei]

Obviously, because you don't practice it, you don't know. Instead of asking, you create ridiculously pedantic theory. I wish you were so pedantic when you misread that Eva Wong's text and read other texts upside down just to be not like anyone else. Don't worry, you're already proved many times that are absolutely unique.

 

 

The process is called 炼丹: "make pills of immortality (as a Taoist practice)". You know TTexts, there are special big books called dictionaries... Open at least one and you will find dozens of names. 

 

Again zero. It seems we won't see any strong arguments...

 

~~~ ADMIN WARNING ~~~

 

This was split off from another topic which even the OP suggested.

 

There can certainly be disagreement and debate but it doesn't need to get so personal... that tends to lead to staff action.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[opendao]

Neidan is best translated as elixir, which is an object.  Alchemy (the 'inner' is a redundant qualifier really) is the process intended to make that object.

 

It's redundant only for those who don't know about 3 ways to create the elixir.

 

For you Neidan is an object, for Chinese people Neidan is a short form of Neidan Shu, The Art of the Internal Alchemy. There is also Daoshu or Xianshu. Meaning is the same. And there are dozens of other names... There are "schools of Neidan", "corpora of Neidan literature" and "Neidan followers" as well as "practitioners". But for TT they are all wrong... Why? Just because he can 

 

Basically, nothing changes: without practice you cannot get elixir ready, whatever fancy name you use, or do you name it "object" or "process". Dao - is it a process or object? Maybe even subject? Or an ultimate goal? Or Qi, is it an object of Neidan or subject? Western binary logic can't answer that. There is also no answer in the wikipedia... 

 

So what is the method "fascist neidan schools" and "greedy daoists" haven't informed you about, TT?

[Aetherous]

yeah internal pill - but the first stage while the 2nd stage is weidan as external pill for immortality.

 

Why make stuff up?

[voidisyinyang]

 

The Tongyoujue says:141

The qi which can preserve life is neidan,

 

 

If you accuse me of something please provide some evidence.

 

Otherwise you're making a false accusation. A moderator is supposed to call that b.s.

 

Now if I accuse someone of being a liar then I provide evidence - that is fair debate.

 

Now I said - from the original link provided.

 

Is that too complicated for you?

 

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/asie_0766-1177_1989_num_5_1_947

 

Apparently so or, instead of willful ignorance, you would have read the link and constructively posted some of the information.

 

I'll do that for you.

 

 

It further defines neidan as being formed of blood, spittle, secretions, seminal essence and qi of the brain ^-È-112 The same text exclaims:

Among the hundred techniques of the art of the chamber, none is so marvellous as that of returning the qi to fortify the brain

 

and

 

 

 

The ancient terms yindan and yangdan, which are related to the art of the bedchamber,139 came to be considered synonyms for neidan and waidan in later texts. A passage preserved in the Tunji qiqian S^-tH, of the (lost work) Xuan- bian Tuanjun bianjinhu qianhong zaoding rujin bizhen zhouhou fang

When the adept obtains unity by internal cultivation, this is the yin elixir, the qi; with qi one can preserve life.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[voidisyinyang]

For internal cultivation is the yin elixir, external cultivation is the yang elixir. With the yin elixir, one lengthens the lifespan ; with the yang elixir, one ascends as an immortal. This is why the practitioner of the Tao can increase the number of his allotted years if he possesses the inner elixir, and can ascend to the heavens if he has the outer elixir. If the inner elixir has been achieved but not the outer elixir, or if the outer elixir has been completed but the inner elixir has not yet been mastered, in both these cases one cannot become an immortal.

 

Neidan is the internal yin elixir, waidan is the external yang elixir.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[voidisyinyang]

In these texts the first stage, in which the adept purifies his seminal essence, culminates in neidan; the second step which corresponds to purification of qi, ends in waidan. According to the ninth-century text Taibai huandan pian ~X.&M.f\m>1^A the first step, neidan, requires three years. Only when this has been achieved can the adept accomplish waidan.

[voidisyinyang]

Why make stuff up?

 

And so now I have provided the evidence that proves you are a liar.

[Brian]

 

And so now I have provided the evidence that proves you are a liar.

No, Drew. Referencing the opinion of someone whose opinion is in agreement with your opinion does not make someone who disagrees with your opinion a liar. This seems to be a common misconception here.

 

I will point out, though, that calling another Bum a liar is almost always a rules violation, regardless of how strongly one holds one's opinion.

[dawei]

Let's try to move on... these topics always seem to be contentious.

 

Brain has a good point and Drew provided some support for his view.  I find Aetherous accusation a bit surprising but I would like the thread to go on...

[Aetherous]

I honestly thought he was just connecting the dots and making it up. I was wrong, because he was quoting some other site where someone else appears to have done that.

[voidisyinyang]

I honestly thought he was just connecting the dots and making it up. I was wrong, because he was quoting some other site where someone else appears to have done that.

 

At least have the courtesy to address me directly.

 

So now you and Brian accuse a scholar quoting alchemy texts as just having an opinion and making things up.

 

Nice!

 

What a pathetic joke.

 

I posted the quotes.

 

Willful ignorance can only go so far.

 

I'll now post the references.

 

You people ask for it.

[Aetherous]

Drew, I have no problem addressing you directly.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Aetherous

[voidisyinyang]

Actually the technique referred to in this section of the book concerns the ancient sexual art of huanjing bunao jH^fif SS) that is, "returning the sperm to fortify the brain." This is evident from the alternative title of this section: Liujing huiqi bunao ^^HI^Mfâj "Preserving the Seminal Essence and Returning the Qi in Order to Fortify the Brain." It further defines neidan as being formed of blood, spittle, secretions, seminal essence and qi of the brain ^-È-112

 

 

112) 6b. The sentence is a quotation from a section of Huangdi neidan qifanjue i^c^ft^-fcMtfe, a title mentioned in the Songshi yiwen zhi 4.15a.

 

See the dude is not just making things up!

 

He's an academic.

 

It's a peer-reviewed journal.

 

It's not just his "opinion."

 

It's objective reality - actual translations.

[voidisyinyang]

Apparently you got some basic reading comprehension problems.

 

I clearly stated I was referring to the link from the original post for this thread -

 

So if that link is somehow disputed you gotta show some evidence for it.

 

Accusations without evidence are false.

 

that's called libel and slander - depending on the intentions of the lies.

 

Accusing someone of "just making something up" is the same thing as accusing them of lying.

 

Providing evidence that someone has given a false accusation is providing evidence that they lied about you.

 

That's called intellectual self-defense.

 

Big difference.

 

 

The ancient terms yindan and yangdan, which are related to the art of the bedchamber,139 came to be considered synonyms for neidan and waidan in later texts. A passage preserved in the Tunji qiqian S^-tH, of the (lost work) Xuan- bian Tuanjun bianjinhu qianhong zaoding rujin bizhen zhouhou fang

When the adept obtains unity by internal cultivation, this is the yin elixir, the qi; with qi one can preserve life. If he obtains unity by external cultivation, this is the yang elixir. When the elixir is completed and ingested,

 

139) rjQCLJ. 33.6b: Sheyang zhenzhong Jang j^kt^ attributed to Sun Simo WMM: £$k fïfàWM-'^'i.'iÊ- On Sun Simo, cf. Nathan Sivin, Chinese Alchemy: Preliminary Studies, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1958. For the date and authenticity of the Sheyang zhenzhong fang, cf. pp. 1 19-20. Cf. also SCC, V-5, p. 184 ff.

[voidisyinyang]

So you people gonna engage with the text of the op link or you gonna make stuff up?

 

You gonna just troll this thread or you gonna provide some evidence?

 

 

When the adept obtains unity by internal cultivation, this is the yin elixir, the qi; with qi one can preserve life.

 

140) DZ 1032, fasc. 677-702, 63.1b-2a.

 

= Daozang jUlit I give the serial numbers as indicated in K.M. Schipper, Concordance du Tao-tsang, Paris, 1975. This is followed by the fascicle number of the Daozang (Hanfen lou M^-W: edition), which is also included in Weng Tu-chien HiJUlit, Tao-tsang tzu-mu yin-te jttii^P@3l#, Harvard- Yenching Institute Sinological Index Series No. 25, reprint, Taipei, 1966.

[voidisyinyang]

 

The Tongyoujue says:141

The qi which can preserve life is neidan,

 

141) DZ>£913, iasc. 591, 18b.

 

So maybe you want to contest the translation?

 

You gotta a better translation maybe?

 

Or maybe you claiming I am making stuff up is a BIG LIE.

[voidisyinyang]

By the way you make false accusations in real life and it can get you in some serious trouble.

 

You can get sued etc.

 

So you can thank me for correcting you.

 

If you want to accuse someone of making stuff up, provide some evidence.

 

 

This is the case with the Zhonglu texts which I have discussed elsewhere.143 In these texts the first stage, in which the adept purifies his seminal essence, culminates in neidan; the second step which corresponds to purification of qi, ends in waidan.

143) Cf. Procédés secrets du joyau magique,.

 

 

According to the ninth-century text Taibai huandan pian ~X.&M.f\m>1^A the first step, neidan, requires three years

 

So who's making stuff up now?

 

Apparently only the people making false accusations and not providing any evidence.

 

It's not just someone's opinion.

 

Claiming that I'm just making stuff up is calling me a liar.

 

I have thoroughly disproved that claim and so Aetherous is now a proven liar on thetaobums.

 

In the future - if you want to accuse someone provide some evidence.

[Aetherous]

Drew...I assumed you were making things up again. I was flat out wrong, because the source you were quoting was peer reviewed and included translations of old Chinese texts...in which those faulty ideas were originally made up. My bad. Please don't sue me...thanks.

[opendao]

Drew, I have no problem addressing you directly. Calm down please.

 

He cannot, you're destroying the basis of his system of beliefs.... 

 

He takes one text, which has zero importance for anybody else except the "respected scholar", and voila, a new theory of waidan after neidan is made.... 

 

It's impossible to criticize Neidan based on randomly selected quotes, without even basic understanding on what is Dan. So far we see just a collection of mistakes.

[opendao]

Alchemy is a religious process of making the elixir which includes not just the bodily energies manipulation but the overal human condition of the alchemist. In other words - the making of neidan is the recipe only, the alchemy is the Dao, the cosmos, the gods, the humanity, the alchemist and as a distant last - the recipe. Thats what makes them so vastly different.

 

^shrug^

 

That's all?

 

Now anybody can open Neidan books, and find "Dao, the cosmos, the gods, the humanity, the alchemist and as a distant last - the recipe", so there is absolutely no difference between Neidan and Alchemy.

 

Damn, major texts in Neidan literature are about what is Dao and how it manifests in cosmos, but some confused individuals somehow missed that... TT, have you read any Neidan text from start to finish?

[dawei]

^shrug^

 

That's all?

 

This topic was split on request... to share someone's point of view.  Trolling the topic will not be accepted.

 

 

~~~~ ADMIN WARNING ~~~~

 

Second and final warning.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[voidisyinyang]

Drew.... the source you were quoting ...included translations of old Chinese texts...in which those faulty ideas were originally made up.

 

yeah that's nice - real poignant reply.

 

 

Quote

This is the case with the Zhonglu texts which I have discussed elsewhere.143 In these texts the first stage, in which the adept purifies his seminal essence, culminates in neidan; the second step which corresponds to purification of qi, ends in waidan.

143) Cf. Procédés secrets du joyau magique,.

 

So you may have noticed this reference was something the author had "discussed elsewhere."

 

Did you notice that?

 

Maybe not.

 

So what was that elsewhere?

 

 

B a ld r ia n - H u s s e in , Fa rze e n . Procedes secrets du Joyau Magique. Trait6

(Talchi’nie Taoiste du X le stecle (Secret procedures of a magic j ewe l. A

treatise of Taoist alchemy of the 11th Century). Paris: Les Deux

Oceans, 1984. 322 pp. Illustrations, charts, bibliography, index. Ffr.

148. — ISBN 2-86681-009-0.

 

Originally presented as a doctoral thesis at the Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes in

Paris in 1979, Procedes secrets du Joyau Magique represents the first major work of a

promising young scholar in the field of Taoist studies. As Maxime Kaltenmark points

out in his preface, this book is a slightly modified version of her dissertation, revised

and clarified to make it accessible to a larger public. I t deals with the system of Taoist

meditation called “ inner alchemy ” {nei-tan [巧丹）which flourished under the Sung

dynasty (960-1278).

 

Oh just a doctoral thesis.

 

And what were the main sources for that thesis?

 

 

As a third point, the introduction deals with the Chinese sources used for this

study. We learn that the main corpus of texts of the “ Chung-Lii ” tradition is found

in the Tao-shu 道樞(Tao-tsang no. 1017, fasc. 641-648) by Tseng Ts’ao 曽健 of the

12th century. It is from this collection that Baldrian-Hussein chose her major sources:

1 .The Pi-chuan ling-pao pi-fa 秘傳靈寶畢，[“ Secret Transmission of the Final methods

of Ling-pao ” ]，translated in the appendix. 2. The CKuan-tao-p'ten 傳道篇[“ On

the Transmission of the Tao ” ] and 3. The Hui-chen-chi 會眞集[“ Meeting Realized

Ones ” ] both used to explain the system.

 

Gee the same co-founders of the secret Neidan school! haha.

 

Hilarious.

 

So the co-founders of the Neidan school apparently just made all this stuff up.

 

 

Baldrian-Hussein's book on “ Secret Precedures of a Magic Jewel ’’ is a jewel in

it.se】f，a jewel full of secrets. It reports faithfully on the systems of thought and on the

practices of meditation transmitted by the Chung-Lii tradition and dated to the 11 th

century.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp%2Fnfile%2F1323&ei=YMRzVbG4L8m3sAWD1gE&usg=AFQjCNH4Hye9aiA-Pf92EW_t2q6jct-aCQ&sig2=9UNN5r8mRupbSibynHGK3Q&bvm=bv.95039771,d.b2w

 

pdf link

 

Better yet that you "really hoped" this book would be translated into English. http://thedaobums.com/topic/15824-ling-pao-pi-fa/#entry214870

 

 

 

Posted 26 September 2010 - 08:46 AM

I really wish someone would translate this into English. I've heard good things.

 

So what is it then?

 

The author previously discussed the terms in a book that you really hoped would be translated into English based on idea that were made up?

 

HILARIOUS!

 

I guess you found those ideas finally but maybe you haven't heard "good things" now.

 

too bad.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Innersoundqigong