Is it possible to remain in the Non-dual state and function in the world?

[dwai]

My friend and I were having a conversation over past several days on whether it is possible for a human being to remain in the Non-dual absorption state and still be functional in the world.

 

He quotes Lisa Cairns, whom he's found very inspiring, and says that he feels she is in such a state and that thousands of people walk around all over the world in said state.

 

My point is however, that if one is completely in non-dual state for too long (measured in terms of days even) the physical body will die.  Once one realizes the non-dual, their personality (as in mundane sense) is changed permanently, however there still remains vestiges of the original self (ego identity) albeit at a much diminished level.  Without this, it would not be possible to function in the material/dualistic existence that is a result of being in this body. One can bridge the divide between duality and non-dualism, but cannot be fully immersed in the non-dual while being functional in the dual.

 

Thoughts?

 

[Marblehead]

I would have to take your side of the discussion.  If we forget the body we will die sooner than our allotted time.  And get very sick and be in much misery before dying.

 

We have to know the difference between a red light and a green light.

 

Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. 

[Nikolai1]

I think the opposite - the persn who could stay permanently in non-duality would be immortal. It is th egoic mind that knows death. But can anyone actually do this?

[Silent Answers]

What if you just dangle your feet over the edge?

[Nue]

My point is however, that if one is completely in non-dual state for too long (measured in terms of days even) the physical body will die.  Once one realizes the non-dual, their personality (as in mundane sense) is changed permanently, however there still remains vestiges of the original self (ego identity) albeit at a much diminished level.

 

I pretty much agree with this, as I don't think its very easy or even possible to function in the physical work in that state for extended periods... expecialliy if it's in a hectic city...

[Jetsun]

Shunryu Suzuki said you need to retain just enough ego so that you don't walk out in front of a bus.

 

But I don't know, I know one or two people who are in the non-dual state a lot of the time and at least one of them can teach and talk to people from there. It seems like if your realisation is very embodied and you are very much surrendered to life then every word, movement and action could be a spontaneous expression of that place. 

[gendao]

Yes, in fact that is our true "natural" state and the "endgame" of our mythic journeys to awakening (see "Master of 2 Worlds" --> "Freedom to Live" aka "Immortality"):

[dwai]

Shunryu Suzuki said you need to retain just enough ego so that you don't walk out in front of a bus.

 

But I don't know, I know one or two people who are in the non-dual state a lot of the time and at least one of them can teach and talk to people from there. It seems like if your realisation is very embodied and you are very much surrendered to life then every word, movement and action could be a spontaneous expression of that place. 

The question is,  is that complete absorption? In my experience it is not so. We are changed and there is minimal to no attachment to identity and the material world and all it's drama, but there still is recognition/cognition of those aspects of our former self. If that's the case, is it not at least partially Egoic?

[dawei]

I can't remember which Zen master this involved but a student asked what practices lead to enlightenment which the master replied, "None".. upon which the student asked [paraphrasing], "WTF are we doing them for"?  

 

The masters reply was that while in the dualistic world, they provide a good guide to avoid making decisions based on illusion, attachment, and desires. 

 

But once one reaches the non-dual state, following practices by rote reading pale in comparison to how the true self can do that naturally and effortlessly.

[Jetsun]

The question is,  is that complete absorption? In my experience it is not so. We are changed and there is minimal to no attachment to identity and the material world and all it's drama, but there still is recognition/cognition of those aspects of our former self. If that's the case, is it not at least partially Egoic?

 

I think it is impossible to be in the highest states of Samadhi and function, I have heard about people being in that state and not knowing where to put the food which is on their fork, should they feed their own mouth or someone elses? When Ammachi was a young girl she would spontaneously fall into such states for hours on end and it would often put her in danger as she could be anywhere doing anything and suddenly she was unified with the divine in total bliss unable to do anything and had to be taken care of by others. But I consider those states to be dissociated temporary states, its like the consciousness is in unity but left the body behind.

 

The way I see it is that many people have basic non-dual awakenings these days, but even if that happens our entire physiology still holds conditioning which goes incredibly deep even to the genetic and cellular level, which can trigger us back into separation consciousness quite easily when life presents something which challenges us. So I think those people who have really liberated their entire body and all areas of their sub-consciousness with the non-dual awareness are very rare, but those who have are pretty much in complete surrender and flow at all times and function pretty much spontaneously to each moment from the place of non-duality.

 

For example Ammachi now she is older is in the non-dual state 24 hours a day and manages to run a multi million pound charitable organisation as well as a thousand other things while being in complete flow and surrender, which is how she gets so much energy, whatever states of bliss come they are completely conscious and don't impede functioning. So I guess what I am saying it is about embodying that awareness.

[rene]

What if you just dangle your feet over the edge?

 

(-:

 

**********************

 

"Is it possible to remain in the Non-dual state and function in the world?"

 

Of course it is.

 

UNLESS -they are believed to be an 'either/or' thing. And if that's the case - the perpetual hopping from one foot to the other will ensue. Better maybe to take Silent Answer's idea and just let them dangle, heh.

[Marblehead]

I think the opposite - the persn who could stay permanently in non-duality would be immortal. It is th egoic mind that knows death. But can anyone actually do this?

I don't know or even know of any true immortals to know if this is possible.  My observations so far is that everyone is going to die.

[Marblehead]

What if you just dangle your feet over the edge?

The sharks would eat your feet.

[9th]

total absorption in a non-dual state would entail the dissolution and dematerialization of the physical body

 

the tendency for people to claim "absolute" status of any kind whatsoever is immediately suspect, at best

 

it would be inspiring to see people stop chasing titles, trophies, status, etc. etc. on the path of cultivation, but eventually you will find that for most people, its simply another occupation, another habit with which they distract themselves from actual reality... and therefore it retains all the trappings and bullshit of that same-old "hide the rabbit" routine

[Daeluin]

One can bridge the divide between duality and non-dualism, but cannot be fully immersed in the non-dual while being functional in the dual.

 

Can one be fully immersed in the non-dual while one still inhabits a body that recognizes a division between self and other? Or does true immersion into non-dual necessitate the body-spirit completely returning to dao?

 

In this idea of a bridge, one inhabits the non-dual in one's center, and that center is all centers. And yet within the functioning of the body and spirit in the world, a bridge is formed to the outside.

 

What is this outside, but a bridge itself? A bridge between matter and spirit, this life-supporting planet of ours.

 

We all have momentum within duality. This momentum is itself a bridge connecting the original non-duality to our present form within duality, a bridge showing the shaping of every duality.

 

Moving forward, we discover non-duality.

Looking back, we discover non-duality.

 

Resting upon the present, we connect past and future, beginning and end, together. Non-duality within, resting upon and embracing duality without.

 

It was where doer-ship was abandoned. Once that is done, everything happens on its own and you are more of a spectator to things. Waking, sleeping, eating, even talking; all these things can take place on their own without necessarily supplying effort of a sense of doership. 

 

By resting upon duality while sincerity is maintained on non-duality, we do nothing to create new duality, even as we invite duality into non-duality.

 

Resting upon the duality of our past momentum, we dissolve it effortlessly. When it is time to act, we act. When it is not we remain within. Action and non-action, according to the time, all unfolding based on momentum; can it really be called action?

 

In that way, you are in a non-dual state and your actions become no different than anyone else's. They're all things that just happen in a field of awareness. 

 

Momentum dissolved completely, perhaps one returns.

Or perhaps one continues resting upon the operation of dissolving duality, in endless free-fall a bridge guiding duality into dao.

Immortality?

[Daeluin]

Internal 'martial' arts can become a study of remaining within non-duality while being incredibly active with one's body, interacting dynamically within duality, the bridge a full-spectrum dance of ever changing adaptation, never departing from the center.

[rene]

We all have momentum within duality. This momentum is itself a bridge connecting the original non-duality to our present form within duality, a bridge showing the shaping of every duality.

 

Moving forward, we discover non-duality.

Looking back, we discover non-duality.

 

Resting upon the present, we connect past and future, beginning and end, together. Non-duality within, resting upon and embracing duality without.

 

Yep. Not 'either/or'. Both. Same time.

 

Nice post!

[dwai]

Internal 'martial' arts can become a study of remaining within non-duality while being incredibly active with one's body, interacting dynamically within duality, the bridge a full-spectrum dance of ever changing adaptation, never departing from the center.

I had typed out a response to A&P's post, but deleted it. But in essence what you're saying is my experience as well. But I have had what I consider a complete immersion (or deeper perhaps) and it's different from the non-attaching, a-personal state that I think I enter quite often with varying degrees of intensity (since it's subjective, we have to talk about it with a certain degree of presumption). 

[dwai]

As much as I am loath to introduce more syntax, perhaps these will help --

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savikalpa

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvikalpa

 

And Sri Chinmoy's discussion of the same topic --

 

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/ecmh-234

Edited June 11, 2015 by dwai

[3bob]

From Swami Lakshmanjoo teachings:

 

Jagadananda

 

"The establishment of krama mudra is called jagadananda, which means
“universal bliss.” This is the seventh and last state
of turya.

"In this state, the experience
of Universal Transcendental Being is never lost and the whole
of the universe is experienced as one with your own 'transcendental
I-Consciousness'.”

All of the states of turya from nijananda to cidananda
comprise the various phases of nimilana samadhi. Nimilana samadhi
is internal subjective samadhi. In your moving through these six
states of turya, this samadhi becomes ever more firm. With the occurrence
of krama mudra, nimilana samadhi is transformed into unmilana samadhi,
which then becomes predominant. This is that state of extraverted
samadhi, where you experience the state of samadhi at the same time
you are experiencing the objective world. And when unmilana samadhi
becomes fixed and permanent, this is the state of jagadananda.

In terms of the process of the fifteen-fold rising,
the sakala state is the waking state. Sakala pramatri is the first
state of turya, which is the state of nijananda. Vijnanakala is
the state of nirananda. Shuddhavidhya is the state of parananda.
Ishvara is the state of brahmananda. Sadashiva is the state of mahananda.
Shiva is the state of cidananda. And Paramashiva is the state of
jagadananda."

 

copied from   http://www.universalshaivafellowship.org/teachings/secretsupreme/chapter-16/#.VXojyVLbKJA

[Bearded Dragon]

Non-dual is not the same as forgoing creation altogether. If there is an action to be taken with the body then you just act. There is no mental separation of act/no act. This kind of feels like autopilot, but it's just that in the flow of things there are no two options. There is only change and you flow with it.

[3bob]

there is only change in manifested worlds of permutation, while "Tao" is "Standing alone without change" per chapter 25 of the T.T.C.

[Marblehead]

Non-dual is not the same as forgoing creation altogether. If there is an action to be taken with the body then you just act. There is no mental separation of act/no act. This kind of feels like autopilot, but it's just that in the flow of things there are no two options. There is only change and you flow with it.

Yeah, I consider this to be the state of "wu wei".  This almost sounds like the negation of free will but it really isn't.

[Marblehead]

there is only change in manifested worlds of permutation, while "Tao" is "Standing alone without change" per chapter 25 of the T.T.C.

True.  And even if there were change we would be unable to detect it.

[Daeluin]

I had typed out a response to A&P's post, but deleted it. But in essence what you're saying is my experience as well. But I have had what I consider a complete immersion (or deeper perhaps) and it's different from the non-attaching, a-personal state that I think I enter quite often with varying degrees of intensity (since it's subjective, we have to talk about it with a certain degree of presumption). 

 

Thank you for sharing the new conceptual perspectives you linked. This has been a question of my own as well.

 

These three conceptual states seem similar to the daoist notion of the golden elixir and the mysterious gate. The mysterious gate has no location; is every location. As the golden elixir enters this gate, one must be centered in one's self and centered within the universe. I may have experienced being centered in myself once, and that was all. And yet, it was so surreal it appeared to defy any notion of progress forward - all was one within, the energy felt golden and celestial, unified - my finger was just as much my center as my toe, and attempting to distinguish them as anything else was impossible. If one attaches to a state like that, is it sustainable without some other form of transformation?

 

Without knowing anything, I can presumptuously compare this to Savikalpa, and by extension perhaps Nirvikalpa could be similar to centering one's self within the universe. The identity loss Sri Chimnoy describes might support this view. And then perhaps Sahaja could be compared to the actual entering into the mysterious gate, having both become centered within one's self and within the universe, able to slip into a deeper place where one remains, and too remains able to navigate within the world flowing the way I described above - knowing when to act and when not to, simply by resting upon resonance - using ziran to maintain tianran.