Is it possible to remain in the Non-dual state and function in the world?

[voidisyinyang]

this is an interesting topic.

 

So when I was studying Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and IMmortality recently - I realized that the Cavity of Pre-Natal Vitality as the pineal gland is what accesses Emptiness via "immutable thought." And so when the Yuan Shen is "turned around" - this is your ego spirit consciousness emanating from the heart and out of the prefrontal cortex - you turn that around to unite it with the Yuan Qi that emanates out of the heart into the pineal gland.

 

So increasing the Yuan qi energy by focusing on the Emptiness via immutable thought (aka japa or vichara in the non-dual tradition) then also increases the yuan shen spirit light energy.

 

In other words it is the Yuan Qi emptiness connection that actually creates the Yuan Shen consciousness light energy (as ego consciousness).

 

Sri Aurobindo called this the three in one paradox as found also in quantum physics but Ramana Maharshi called in the "three in one unity."

 

So for example the qigong master I studied with shared how his heart stopped for over 2 hours and yet he was walking around just fine.

 

Now we know that for Ramana Maharshi when he heart stopped for over ten minutes he still maintained awareness and then a shot of qi energy shot from the right side of his heart to the left side, and re-started his heart.

 

So we know from Taoist Yoga that the left side of the heart is the origin of yuan shen and the right side is the origin of yuan qi.

 

We also know from the nondualist mind yoga jnana practice that you focus on the right side of the heart - again using logical inference as vichara.

 

This is the left-side, left brain logical inference that, via the left side vagus nerve, is the deep reptilian vagus nerve to the right side of the heart and it can stop the heart when over-stimulated. But doing so willingly via meditation then enables transcendence of death while maintaining awareness as the "immutable thought" that goes into the Emptiness.

 

And so we can think of immutable thought as actually yuan qi energy - what Ramana Maharshi called kundalini - and so this is what drives the spleen qi energy also.

 

And so then this is a trance energy as immutable thought - it is pure Emptiness intention as pure qi energy-action and so as Emptiness-action it is the three in one unity via complementary opposites. Just as you can not see the formless awareness - the Yuan Qi bends spacetime and by doing so then creates the Yuan Shen as the ego spirit consciousness that also reincarnates or is reborn,  and has past lives, etc.

 

When the unification of yuan qi and yuan shen is strong enough then it creates more yuan jing - this is the secret of the White Tiger and Green Dragon copulation - and so this is also the three in one unity.

 

I first read Dr. David Loy's book on Nonduality philosophy - his Ph.D. thesis - 15 years ago.

 

So at first I thought of the Emptiness as a static realm that can be experienced - and since the Emptiness is in everything like manure, etc. then I thought once the Emptiness is achieved via Nirvikalpa Samadhi - then that it is - you have experienced the Emptiness and you know the Emptiness is equally in everything.

 

this is actually a kind of nihilist view and I held onto that for several years as a kind of tantric view - there is just as much Emptiness in crap as in gold, etc.

 

But in reality to experience the Emptiness is actually an eternal process of energy creation via the complementary opposites as harmonic resonance or purification of energy.

 

And so this is why real Emptiness training requires full body transformation also via nirvikalpa samadhi - or as Master Nan, Huai-chin says unless you can sit in full lotus in ease for a long time - like 2 hours - not moving - then you have not obtained the Emptiness.

 

Of course via mahayana Buddhism - there are different levels of emptiness as the complementary opposite of different levels of consciousness.

 

And so our consciousness as yuan shen is also turning around - subconsciously - back into our subconscious intention as the Emptiness of yuan qi energy - or rather the Emptiness is that process of complementary opposites.

 

So for example I have the experience - several times like this morning - when the very first conscious awareness I have at waking up - that very first thought - is actually the experience of my spirit light rising up from my lower body (my liver) to fill my brain and to cast light out of my eyes, as my "experience" of then waking up and looking out of my eyes!

 

So then I know that conscious thinking and perceptions are very much dependent on this otherwise subconscious spirit light that is in the liver while dreaming but rises to the heart to emit out of the eyes while awake.

 

And in fact, as taught in nondualism, this light projects out of a camera (our mind) but that the camera itself is like an empty box, a machine, our mind, or conceptual thought as it's said in mahayana Buddhism, and so from where does this light arise?

 

This is of course very much the same teaching as Plato's metaphor of the Cave. We can not see formless awareness but we can listen to it.

 

So the right brain that is aware of the spirit light has to be, and is very much, silent. This is proven by science even.

 

Ramana Maharshi called it "sahaja samadhi."

 

The qigong master told me, last time I saw him, that he had found out this secret that if he wanted to know the real meaning of anything then all he had to do was turn the thought around - to literally reverse the qi energy that the thought was based on - and this would create like a 180 degree spacetime black hole into the Emptiness that re-emerges 180 degrees differently back into conscious awareness as a white hole - light spirit awareness with the answer to the question!

 

Of course we experience this day to day by when wanting an answer to remember something - we have to "let go" and stop trying and let it sink into our holographic subconscious spirit energy which stores all information and is "nondual."

 

And so after we wake up from a blissful dreamless sleep state - then voila! The answer is waiting for us!

 

I have seen the qigong master do this where he says, "let me go into the Emptiness" to check my aura. And so he uses his intention as his qi energy to go into the Emptiness - to turn his spirit light around 180 degrees as literally a spacetime vortex and then the qi energy increases his yuan shen energy reading of the aura light.

 

So he had already picked up the aura light - just by the normal interaction. This is just as with quantum physics - once two photons interact then they already have non-dual signalling - superliminal, faster-than-light communication - but science has to test this "after the fact" by measuring it.

 

So in meditation when we go into the Emptiness even the qigong master says you don't experience your own ego awareness - it is just like in deep dreamless sleep - only you have consciously chosen to travel into the Emptiness! And then the Emptiness guides you by harmonizing, instantly, the information it received, and providing the answer back!

 

This is literally called the Law of Phase Harmony in quantum physics - by Louis de Broglie - and it really does prove there is faster-than-light information signalling that inherently is based on complementary opposites - in other words the nondual formless awareness guides the light signal - this guiding is called the "pilot wave."

 

Scientists have thought this was just "theoretical" and in reality it's just a false construct of the mathematics.

 

That is, until recently, when an experiment was set up that officially "disproved" Einstein scoffing at the notion of real non-dual awareness guiding information at a faster then light speed.

 

Indeed by going into the Emptiness we can then get information from the future - but the only way to do this (and again this is how Kurt Godel, the logician, proved time travel is possible, is that it is not YOU that is traveling into the future, you can not have any desires to travel into the future, in other words. Only the impersonal yuan qi energy can travel into the future.

 

And so if the heart has truly been opened up then this connection is made all the time - Ramana Maharshi called it the eternal I-I energy of the heart. So again that would be the Yuan Qi emanating out of the right side of the heart-mind soul and then connecting to the Yuan Shen as our personal ego spirit awareness and that process goes on eternally.

 

And so as an internal process - the more we focus on it then the more Yuan Jing physical transformations occur. But on the other hand "we" are our yuan shen personal spirit consciousness don't need to focus on it at all if we have already achieved what Ramana Maharshi called "Mouna Samadhi" or silence samadhi, the highest samadhi. So there is no personal spirit ego intention at all - only the intention of listening to the source of energy itself - the Yuan Qi emanating as eternal energy transformation.

 

Of course the Mahayana Buddhists say this is not far enough because the body needs to be transformed for real Supreme Complete Enlightenment - and so we can say that the full lotus body position enables a deep level of Emptiness while at the same time creates motion of energy that inherently resonates as complementary opposites energy - it inherently is transforming the holographic interaction of the body with the universe for the new creation of Yuan Jing energy. And hence the numerous physical transformation bodies are possible and mass healings around the world and around the universe even - and finally the dissolving of the personal physical body itself as the Yuan Jing essentially goes into like a black hole of the whole universe - and merges into the formless awareness itself of the Yuan Qi energy that will again create eternal transformation.

 

So can we "function" in such a state? In reality the more shakti or energy transformations that are experienced, the less of "You" that is experiencing it! this is the true paradox of nondual training. It is the Emptiness itself that is manifesting through you and so you become an "empty" container of the energy. Of course this requires deep harmonization or purification training- the Emptiness is not some static state that is equally found in all things. No it is a process of harmonic resonance training - and so it is a fine tuning of energy that is very difficult to achieve and yet it is possible.

 

So it is said only a half dozen people on Earth at any time have achieved this state of functioning while in the nondual reality - which means they have achieved the state of having their heart-mind permanently resonating into the Emptiness beyond death - with every breath they take!

 

The problem with this is that the nondual philosophy is actually still based on the Vedic symmetric logic - for example I mentioned Ramana Maharshi saying it is the "I-I" awareness resonating out from the heart-mind. This is itself a symmetric analysis - I-I is like "one-One." And so there is already a built in axiomatic logic, like with Brahman defined as "I Am that I Am." The "that" being the formless awareness while "I" is your Yuan Shen intentional awareness and the "Am" is the yin/yang energy as complementary opposites (jing/qi) in this case). Another example of this is Mahayana Buddhism tells us the OHM sound naturally emanates out of the heart when the jing energy is converting to qi as the shen energy opens up - of the 2nd chakra. I have experienced this myself - hearing suddenly a loud OHM sound emanating from my heart while I was in a  rainbow astral vortex of holographic energy - a nondual state. And so that is the "AM of the "I Am that I Am" axiom. The AM is the OHM - as the jing converting to qi or yin converting to yang energy.

 

So the I-I state is the eternal state of Sattva spirit light emanating out of the yuan qi from the right side of the heart - and so the yuan qi connects a person from a post death reality back to the personal spirit ego of the yuan shen on the left side of the heart. Again if this is consciously focused on as the philosophy then more Yuan Jing energy is created - but if it is achieved as a real Mouna Samadhi state then it will also keep going on without any conscious focus on the energy.

 

Mahayana Buddhism makes this distinction as an important one. For example you could create multiple yang shen (physical bodies) at the same time, as H.W.L. Poonja did for his birthday. As many people invited him to their houses and he didn't want to disappoint them. ONly he wasn't consciously aware that he had done this - he only found out after the fact!

 

Now he was from the nondual advaita tradition which says that ONLY the Emptiness is real and so the fact that he personally, his Yuan Shen, was not aware of it - didn't matter that the Yuan Qi had been focused enough to create enough Yuan Jing for his multiple physical bodies.

 

But in Mahayana Buddhism you need to be consciously aware of this action via a harmonization of consciousness (Yuan Shen) and Emptiness (yuan qi). And so for example as described in the Theraveda Buddhist monk biography of Phra Achran Mun - his meditation partner was levitating up in the air but as soon as he became consciously aware of it - then he would collapse back to the ground. So he had to train to maintain the nirvikalpa samadhi state while also being personally aware of the Emptiness energy - to harmonize his Yuan Shen so it did a 180 degree turn back into the Yuan Qi for this Yuan Jing transformation - and at the same time he could maintain awareness of this yuan shen transformation.

 

So I would say - yes it is possible to maintain personal yuan shen awareness for the nondual reality but that it takes training and that is not necessarily needed - a good book that discusses this from a personal perspective is the book "Transcendent Dreaming" wherein a kungfu qigong student has physical transformations of other people, etc. via her dream state that goes beyond a lucid dreaming state and beyond even precognitive visions - she actually wakes up with physical jing transformations on her body still.

 

Ramana Maharshi says we must use the mind (yuan shen) to kill the mind (yuan shen) and so it is through a sattva light experience that we then go into the Emptiness (yuan qi) even though we can not see the Emptiness  and yet the Emptiness does create the light energy.

 

And so what does this mean? It is referring - not too clearly - to the complementary opposites 180 degree transformation of what happens when we "turn the light" around back into the Emptiness - a kind of holographic mirror reality that turns things inside out and reveals their true secrets to us. It is not "us" revealing the secrets though - it is what some called God or Brahman or the Emptiness, etc. that reveals the secret. And so what is the formless awareness? It is precisely this eternal listening trance transformation of complementary opposites energy - a three in one unity of yuan shen into yuan qi into yuan jing. Or more precisely via Taoist Yoga alchemy training - yin jing into yang jing (yin qi) into yang qi (yin shen) into yang shen (yin jing). And so the nondual energy infinitely cycles like that.

 

Ok so the spirit goes down to our liver when we close our eyes. the liver is the "green dragon" which means it transforms the yin jing energy into yin qi energy which then rises up into the lungs as steam vapor (yin qi) energy which then causes the heart (via the pineal gland and yuan shen out of the brain, via the sinus cavities and the tongue connecting the upper and lower front channels - the heart then has the "white tiger" descend into the lower tan tien - whereby the saliva of the white tiger, containing the green dragon energy (the yuan qi and yuan shen energy) thereby creates a yuan jing transformation which in turn increases the yuan qi energy of the spleen and the cycle continues.

 

So it is said the True Intention of the Spleen is the secret of the training - and this is the intention of the Emptiness itself - the Yuan Qi energy manifestation so that it drives all the transformations - it is the root key energy that is the nondual awareness itself and yet to be aware of it requires the eternal three in one process of transformation.

[z00se]

I think it depends on what you mean by 'function in the world'. Which world? Society? City? Farmlife? Have a family? Work a job? Live a normal life? What is normal?

 

I'm not sure non duality means you will just die because you can't feed yourself. In non duality you still know if your body is hungry, cold, or needs water etc. It doesn't mean the feeling of dying of thirst is the same as feeling fully hydrated. Non duality doesn't mean everything is the same, it just means that instead of different definate objects, there becomes different shades of the one and same thing.

 

I think if one is fully non-dualistic and not tailoring their responses to people in their environment to appear normal, then they will appear ab-normal and life can become difficult, especially in larger groups of people, or society. For a hermit i think it would be perfectly easy to live a non-dualistic life. If you live with others one needs to 'fit in'. If you live with other non-dualistic people it would be fine. Living in a city where one needs to pay rent, buy food, have a job and be productive etc.... i feel it would be difficult.

[doc benway]

My friend and I were having a conversation over past several days on whether it is possible for a human being to remain in the Non-dual absorption state and still be functional in the world.

 

He quotes Lisa Cairns, whom he's found very inspiring, and says that he feels she is in such a state and that thousands of people walk around all over the world in said state.

 

My point is however, that if one is completely in non-dual state for too long (measured in terms of days even) the physical body will die.  Once one realizes the non-dual, their personality (as in mundane sense) is changed permanently, however there still remains vestiges of the original self (ego identity) albeit at a much diminished level.  Without this, it would not be possible to function in the material/dualistic existence that is a result of being in this body. One can bridge the divide between duality and non-dualism, but cannot be fully immersed in the non-dual while being functional in the dual.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think we need to be careful about speaking of reality vs fantasy.

 

We can speculate about perfection of the non-dual state but for practical purposes we need to acknowledge that we are human, we are not perfect and will not be so for the foreseeable future. 

Well, we don't need to acknowledge this, but I choose to.

Our only hope of success is through looking at reality, not fantasy, and looking at ourselves as we are rather than as we would like to be.

 

In my practice, the objective is to spend short periods of time resting in what is my best approximation of the non-dual state (I'm equating this to what we refer to as the nature of mind), and to gradually increase the frequency and duration of such periods. 

Then, as stability improves, this state is brought into more and more challenging activity and circumstances with the ultimate objective being exactly what you are questioning.

 

Does it occur and to what degree? I've met masters whose demeanor and behavior suggests they are quite accomplished.

My own success so far is quite limited but the changes these practices have brought into my life are so positive, that I feel progressively more devoted and optimistic rather than discouraged.

[3bob]

this is an interesting topic.

 

So when I was studying Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and IMmortality recently - I realized that the Cavity of Pre-Natal Vitality as the pineal gland is what accesses Emptiness via "immutable thought." And so when the Yuan Shen is "turned around" - this is your ego spirit consciousness emanating from the heart and out of the prefrontal cortex - you turn that around to unite it with the Yuan Qi that emanates out of the heart into the pineal gland..............................................

 

Whoa!

[RiverSnake]

Used to try meditating in classes, it was not good for my grades. When you reach a certain state of absorption you can't process things on an intellectual level...IME.

 

Other states I've been in it was difficult to function physically and mentally. There are different depths of non-dual states, it's pretty dicey to talk specifically about any of them....but I find once I expand up to the forehead and beyond its difficult to function intellectually unless I come back down.

Edited June 14, 2015 by OldChi

[Kubba]

It is just the fear of death asking the question. Will I be the cookie and have the cookie? You only can be the cookie, that will be eaten. Just enjoy being digested. otherwise you will die

 

 

This what people are reffering to are normal phases of revealing for some cases. Seems like you are, and you are not, or suffer of some mental dissease, just don't be crazy anout it. It is just some kind of beutifull dance to dance out to the end.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Kubba

[Daeluin]

Used to try meditating in classes, it was not good for my grades. When you reach a certain state of absorption you can't process things on an intellectual level...IME.

 

Other states I've been in it was difficult to function physically and mentally. There are different depths of non-dual states, it's pretty dicey to talk specifically about any of them....but I find once I expand up to the forehead and beyond its difficult to function intellectually unless I come back down.

 

I've experienced this. Sometime in my first year of a taiji / meditation class, at the end of the class some people would return to a very chatty mental state. But I would be very quiet, in a state which the energy in my mind was calm and at peace, unwilling to adapt to their flow. At first I wondered if they simply didn't go very deep - and since then I have noticed changes. But now I have a different perspective.

 

Refinement.

 

We can bring ourselves deeply within, and naturally this depth can appear to travel further away from dualistic mechanisms. Perhaps the distance created here is merely a creation of stagnation and fixation. One mechanism operating on a different wavelength than another, and the bridge between them broken.

 

Refinement dissolves the blockages between the center and the various mechanisms.

Refinement works to cleanse the layers of encrustation to expose the pure within.

Refinement allows the pure substances to draw together in unity.

 

The more refined we become, the more easily we may adapt to changes in our environment. When we attach to static states it is not so easy to flow between them, so we decide to either cultivate a meditative state OR cultivate a state where memorizing patterns and taking exams is easy. Doing the work of remaining in a meditative state while we attempt to integrate with another state on the surface is doing the work of refinement.

 

I quite enjoy the state the circular movements of bagua leave me in. Centered within, I find adapting to my environment becomes effortless. The energy spins and weaves non-linearly from within, able to adapt to the most harmonious flow of the external. The bridge is formed between without attachments getting in the way and without mental effort required to plan the optimal approach.

 

So dissolving the body allows the energy freedom to adapt, but too it is important for the energy itself to be refined. The more refined and unified the energies become, the more easily they may unfold into whatever shape necessary for the bridge to manifest. And finally, it is important to return back within, dissolving the bridge when its purpose is complete.

 

I sense that at first one uses yang and yin from within. But later one is internally yang; externally the yin response is withdrawn from the outside rather than entering from the inside. And so the inside full and firm, the outside supple and adapting to the environment harmoniously and effortlessly. And so one enters one of the final layers of duality on the approach to ultimate non-duality.

 

This is all just my own perspective. I hope that it might help someone. Blessings.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Daeluin

[doc benway]

When you have to engage in technical/mundane/"earthly" tasks (e.g. doing your taxes, writing your PhD dissertation, renovate your house), you just gotta get things done, yea?

 

 

I agree - the mind is very useful for our day to day existence as long as we are living in society.

 

I will say this: in the beginning, it is enough for us to simply practice in the absence of distractions.

Once we develop a degree of competence and stability, it is time to bring into those mundane and earthly activities.

Practicing only on the cushion will not take us that far - we need to bring these practices into our lives, particularly during trying times and circumstances.

It's particularly important to learn how to let our emotions become triggers for us to access that state.

When we get angry, frustrated, bored,... no better time to use these methods and rest in that state.

With enough practice it become automatic and eventually the unnecessary reactions simply no longer arise as often.

This is one way these practices can really change our lives.

[Marblehead]

Very true.  But I will confess, I do still trip now and again.  I guess it's my ego.

[3bob]

if we misplace our car keys (often) does that mean we need to strengthen our ego's

[Geof Nanto]

I agree - the mind is very useful for our day to day existence as long as we are living in society.

 

I will say this: in the beginning, it is enough for us to simply practice in the absence of distractions.

Once we develop a degree of competence and stability, it is time to bring into those mundane and earthly activities.

Practicing only on the cushion will not take us that far - we need to bring these practices into our lives, particularly during trying times and circumstances.

It's particularly important to learn how to let our emotions become triggers for us to access that state.

When we get angry, frustrated, bored,... no better time to use these methods and rest in that state.

With enough practice it become automatic and eventually the unnecessary reactions simply no longer arise as often.

This is one way these practices can really change our lives.

 

I like and use these centering techniques too. However, in retrospect, it's also been important for me to explore life at its extremes to find my personal upper and lower limits. I say 'in retrospect' because I never set out to do so. I found and exceeded my lower limit decades ago with heroin addiction; and more recently I found and exceeded my upper limit with a failed attempt at energy healing a person near and dear to me who suffers a serious chronic illness. The attempt ended badly for both of us.

 

Both these experiences were emotionally painful to say the least. However, they've both, in very different ways, formed the basis of the two greatest learning experiences of my life. Now, many years on, I've found a measure of contentment such as I've never experienced before, though when it comes to this great mystery we call life, I'm still very much a beginner. 

 

BTW While I think finding personal upper and lower limits can be beneficial for anyone, I certainly don't recommend exceeding them like I have done. I've also found exploring desire to be useful, in fact that's the method I've used to gain insight into its nature. However that's a subject for another time.  

Edited June 16, 2015 by Darkstar

[PLB]

One could turn the question around. Is it really possible to navigate the world without relying upon connections that a person has no idea why they work or are able to specify their connection? You better be meditating or all your positions will be assigned without consultation.

 

We make all these choices. The process of selection runs into the deepest elements of our being. Opening up to that doesn't explain how it all works together. Logic is neither self explanatory nor an epiphenomenon of something else.

Accepting that the ego driven options are not sufficient changes all the choices that are to be made.

Experience is all tied together. We can change our experience through our choices.

I am talking in a circle.

[Silent Answers]

One could turn the question around. Is it really possible to navigate the world without relying upon connections that a person has no idea why they work or are able to specify their connection? You better be meditating or all your positions will be assigned without consultation.

 

We make all these choices. The process of selection runs into the deepest elements of our being. Opening up to that doesn't explain how it all works together. Logic is neither self explanatory nor an epiphenomenon of something else.

Accepting that the ego driven options are not sufficient changes all the choices that are to be made.

Experience is all tied together. We can change our experience through our choices.

I am talking in a circle.

Isn't it the losing of that connection that brings life into better focus? All the connections form like a spider's web. Flies thrash around and get further trapped, while the spiders, who understand the trap, traverse it with ease. (Helps to have 8 legs)

[PLB]

Isn't it the losing of that connection that brings life into better focus? All the connections form like a spider's web. Flies thrash around and get further trapped, while the spiders, who understand the trap, traverse it with ease. (Helps to have 8 legs)

Seeing the web is important. Maybe there is a way to dance like the spider.

On the other hand, accepting the need to be graceful in the circumstances handed one does not let one fly high above what is happening. I cannot accept that all obligation is the sublunary sphere of small minds.

I see how that idea is egotistical. But it is something else too. It is less dogmatic on the point of explaining why we are going through all this stuff.

[Marblehead]

if we misplace our car keys (often) does that mean we need to strengthen our ego's

Hehehe.  I think it means we need to get our life a little more organized.

[Marblehead]

 

BTW While I think finding personal upper and lower limits can be beneficial for anyone, I certainly don't recommend exceeding them like I have done. I've also found exploring desire to be useful, in fact that's the method I've used to gain insight into its nature. However that's a subject for another time.  

Your post reminded me of what I say on occasion:  that we should know what our capabilities and capacities are.  If we know and don't try to exceed them we will have few mistakes in our life.

[Marblehead]

One could turn the question around. Is it really possible to navigate the world without relying upon connections that a person has no idea why they work or are able to specify their connection?

Yes, that is a good question.  I have found in my life that intuition and inspiration are very efficient even though in most cases there is no logic involved.  Could have something to do with controllers in our unconscious mind.

[Daeluin]

if we misplace our car keys (often) does that mean we need to strengthen our ego's

 

When we do everything with sincerity, from our work, to our cooking, to our transportation, to our relaxation, to our setting things down, never mindless, never rushing, we can easily recollect where something went. We don't need to hold onto everything in our short term memory until it is like a computer that has been on far too long. We just need to be sincere, centered, empty. Then our past actions are easy to look back upon when necessary. They are part of what we've become; no need to hold them in our mind.

[3bob]

Nice post Daeluin, I'm just kidding around although I think it true to say that goof ups are sometimes made and that the greater the being the greater the effect and force of the goof-up.  There is also the saying of,

 

"The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry". Definition: No matter how carefully a project is planned, something may still go wrong with it.

Edited June 16, 2015 by 3bob

[forestofclarity]

I would question first what is meant by a non-dual state. The distinction between nirvikalpa and savikalpa samadhi is a good one because different traditions place one over the other. 

 

But even then, what are we really talking about? The non-duality of self and other? Subject and object? Emptiness and appearance? A merging of inner space and outer space? An arising of unifying bliss? A feeling? A state of neither knowing nor not-knowing? 

 

I have a feeling that a non-dual state for modern neo-Advaitins is really no different from a regular state, only with the added realization that there is nothing to do. 

 

I would also call attention to the use of the concept "state", as in we're either in a non-dual state or not. I think it is more of a matter of degree, and that the non-dual view sort of merges with all other states and changes them very subtly. 

[doc benway]

I like and use these centering techniques too. However, in retrospect, it's also been important for me to explore life at its extremes to find my personal upper and lower limits. I say 'in retrospect' because I never set out to do so. I found and exceeded my lower limit decades ago with heroin addiction; and more recently I found and exceeded my upper limit with a failed attempt at energy healing a person near and dear to me who suffers a serious chronic illness. The attempt ended badly for both of us.

 

Both these experiences were emotionally painful to say the least. However, they've both, in very different ways, formed the basis of the two greatest learning experiences of my life. Now, many years on, I've found a measure of contentment such as I've never experienced before, though when it comes to this great mystery we call life, I'm still very much a beginner. 

 

BTW While I think finding personal upper and lower limits can be beneficial for anyone, I certainly don't recommend exceeding them like I have done. I've also found exploring desire to be useful, in fact that's the method I've used to gain insight into its nature. However that's a subject for another time.  

 

You make a very good point. We certainly learn and grow from our misadventures.

 

I'm fairly confident in saying that life is going to throw circumstances at us which will challenge us at times, sometimes to the extreme, whether we look for them or try to avoid them. Certainly we are all going to face death, our own and that of loved ones. I don't think we have to be too concerned with being so well adjusted that we will not grow. What brought me to the spiritual path were some extremely difficult experiences. I think those are the very things that bring us to the point where we begin to see what is important in our lives and live our lives in a way that is consistent with and supportive of what we value.

[Jetsun]

I would question first what is meant by a non-dual state. The distinction between nirvikalpa and savikalpa samadhi is a good one because different traditions place one over the other. 

 

But even then, what are we really talking about? The non-duality of self and other? Subject and object? Emptiness and appearance? A merging of inner space and outer space? An arising of unifying bliss? A feeling? A state of neither knowing nor not-knowing? 

 

I have a feeling that a non-dual state for modern neo-Advaitins is really no different from a regular state, only with the added realization that there is nothing to do. 

 

I would also call attention to the use of the concept "state", as in we're either in a non-dual state or not. I think it is more of a matter of degree, and that the non-dual view sort of merges with all other states and changes them very subtly. 

 

By definition non-dual just means not two. Therefore non-duality can only appear when you are not, it isn't possible for "you" to be in non-duality because if you are there then there is two. So when people talk about themselves experiencing non-duality they can't be talking about non-duality in actuality.

[doc benway]

So when people talk about themselves experiencing non-duality they can't be talking about non-duality in actuality.

Is it possible to have a memory of an experience of non-duality?

[Jetsun]

Is it possible to have a memory of an experience of non-duality?

Its possible, the ego is likely to do its best to repress and deny such memories though.

[Daeluin]

If a person is still a person perhaps they cannot be said to be non dual, but what prevents them from touching and experiencing non duality within, and rooting to it whilst embracing the rest which non duality encompasses without?