Is it possible to remain in the Non-dual state and function in the world?

[Geof Nanto]

I wonder how many people will understand what you just said.

 

The words are easy to understand but perhaps it follows the rule of three -  mountain; no mountain; mountain.

 

Dual awareness; non-dual awareness; dual awareness.

 

For me, this has been an interesting and informative discussion thread. I much appreciate all the contributions. 

Edited June 21, 2015 by Yueya

[Brian]

Queue Donovan:

 

https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkLp9d7HKuA

 

[PLB]

Interesting discussion of what "non dual" means.

I don't have anything helpful to add but it may not be off topic to observe that this subject is very old and is a part of something that will go on for a long time after we all die.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I thought the point of non-dual realization was for all and everything to ascend to meet and attain the quality of the infinite. I don't see why that state would interfere with putting a fork in your mouth, stopping at a red light, or getting some exercise now and then. It sounds to me like others are talking about a trance state of sorts - something unmistakably spiritual and profound, but reflecting a surge or push of consciousness out of its ordinary confines, rather than a thorough and holistic assimilation of duality into the recognition of spirit as all.

 

IMO Stephen Jourdain was in such a state (probably since the age of 16 or so into old age and death):

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that link. There is a whole series of ten videos there. One of the most interesting interviews I've seen in a long time.

 

[gatito]

As much as I am loath to introduce more syntax, perhaps these will help --

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savikalpa

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvikalpa

 

And Sri Chinmoy's discussion of the same topic --

 

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/ecmh-234

 

Savikalpa is a bit of a red-herring, as is the Sri Chinmoy quote because although some of it is accurate, some of it is highly misleading.

 

You might find it more useful to compare and contrast nirvikalpa (objectless non-dual Consciousnes. i.e. Brahman) and sahaja (non-dual consciousnes in the presence of objects. i.e. atman)

 

Sahaja (the Natural State) is easier to agree upon because, without exception, everone has experienced it and it's just a matter of drawing that experience out of the individual so that they can see clearly that which is being indicated by the descriptor.

 

Sahaja is recognised most clearly in what is refered to as the Flow state. So, if I'm talking with an extreme sports junkie, a martial artist, a dancer, a musician or someone who's had a car crash, etc., it's a lot easier to reach agreement..

 

As you know from scripture atman = Brahman. Nirvikalpa is simply that confirmation. However, from observation, for most people that first-hand experience causes massive confusion. Discussion of the theory in the case of most people who have no first-hand experience tends to be entirely counterproductive. Even discussions with those who have direct first-hand experience can be counterproductive in many (perhaps most) cases.

 

So, the question can be reformulated as "Is it possible to remain in the Flow state and function in the world?"

 

The answer is that the Flow state (by everyone's own first-hand experience) is the smoothest, most satisfying worldly functioning and the trick is merely to extend that experience of happiness and peace into other activities/non-activities (as opposed to being stuck with a very expensive and dangerous addiction - in the case of any adrenaline junkies who may happen across this post. ).

[dwai]

Savikalpa is a bit of a red-herring, as is the Sri Chinmoy quote because although some of it is accurate, some of it is highly misleading.

 

You might find it more useful to compare and contrast nirvikalpa (objectless non-dual Consciousnes. i.e. Brahman) and sahaja (non-dual consciousnes in the presence of objects. i.e. atman)

 

Sahaja (the Natural State) is easier to agree upon because, without exception, everone has experienced it and it's just a matter of drawing that experience out of the individual so that they can see clearly that which is being indicated by the descriptor.

 

Sahaja is recognised most clearly in what is refered to as the Flow state. So, if I'm talking with an extreme sports junkie, a martial artist, a dancer, a musician or someone who's had a car crash, etc., it's a lot easier to reach agreement..

 

As you know from scripture atman = Brahman. Nirvikalpa is simply that confirmation. However, from observation, for most people that first-hand experience causes massive confusion. Discussion of the theory in the case of most people who have no first-hand experience tends to be entirely counterproductive. Even discussions with those who have direct first-hand experience can be counterproductive in many (perhaps most) cases.

 

So, the question can be reformulated as "Is it possible to remain in the Flow state and function in the world?"

 

The answer is that the Flow state (by everyone's own first-hand experience) is the smoothest, most satisfying worldly functioning and the trick is merely to extend that experience of happiness and peace into other activities/non-activities (as opposed to being stuck with a very expensive and dangerous addiction - in the case of any adrenaline junkies who may happen across this post. ).

The problem is definition of these terms and how to explain it to someone who has very valid questions but hadn't walked the path yet. Since I posted the OP, my friend has had a few deep meditative experiences and understands what I was trying to say...

[3bob]

"(as opposed to being stuck with a very expensive and dangerous addiction - in the case of any adrenaline junkies who may happen across this post. )".  by Gatito.

 

Yes, that reminds me of people forcefully risking and or creating a death scenario without its true need which is used to then somehow make them feel alive during such activity...

 

- whereas or in comparison if we borrow (or paraphrase) a Zen saying it is seen that such forced and self created risk is not needed to make one feel alive per: "before enlightenment chop wood and carry water , after enlightenment chop wood and carry water"

[gatito]

The problem is definition of these terms and how to explain it to someone who has very valid questions but hadn't walked the path yet.

 

Exactly!!

 

 

Since I posted the OP, my friend has had a few deep meditative experiences and understands what I was trying to say...

 

_/\_

 

"(as opposed to being stuck with a very expensive and dangerous addiction - in the case of any adrenaline junkies who may happen across this post. )".  by Gatito.

 

Was just joking 3bob. I've nothing against adrenaline sports or adrenaline junkies - quite the reverse in fact.

 

Wish I could do this. It's one hell of a fantastic meditation - even to watch. Great soundtrack as well, although I guess most people would need subtitles! : -

 

Edited June 22, 2015 by gatito

[soaring crane]

Wish I could do this. It's one hell of a fantastic meditation - even to watch. Great soundtrack as well, although I guess most people would need subtitles! : -

 

Perhaps it's time to clean the cat box?

 

The toxoplasma gondi parasite aka "the cat litter parasite" has been definitively linked to phases in people's lives where they take up dangerous activities, start extreme sports, things like that. The effect of the microbial world on our behavior, our intellect, our desires, intuition and beliefs, on everything that goes into being human, everything that goes into life in any form on this planet, is a running theme with me and this post is not meant facetiously:

 

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/253802.php

[3bob]

I was not kidding... I see no merit in tempting or provoking death by creating a death/risk scenario being that death is already on the hunt in a certain manner of speaking, also death/risk scenarios may arise through karmas anyway and then need to be faced; thus a spiritual warrior may prepare dharmically to face death but I feel they have no time or place to make or be motivated by a mind/body/ego trip out of doing so.

Edited June 22, 2015 by 3bob

[gatito]

I was not kidding... there is no need to tempt or provoke death which is already on the hunt in a certain manner of speaking; thus a spiritual warrior may prepare dharmically to face death but has no time or place to make a mind/body trip out of doing so.

 

I'm not into "spiritual warriorship" 3bob - I just like having fun, so I guess that we'll have to agree to differ.

 

However, chacun à son goût!

 

[3bob]

seems strange that you would say that Gatito being that any and all "spiritual" students and or masters are spiritual warriors in one sense or another or on a path in one sense or another of at least being a warrior in seeking and standing for dharmic and universal truth or truths.

[ChiForce]

Savikalpa is a bit of a red-herring, as is the Sri Chinmoy quote because although some of it is accurate, some of it is highly misleading.

 

You might find it more useful to compare and contrast nirvikalpa (objectless non-dual Consciousnes. i.e. Brahman) and sahaja (non-dual consciousnes in the presence of objects. i.e. atman)

 

Sahaja (the Natural State) is easier to agree upon because, without exception, everone has experienced it and it's just a matter of drawing that experience out of the individual so that they can see clearly that which is being indicated by the descriptor.

 

Sahaja is recognised most clearly in what is refered to as the Flow state. So, if I'm talking with an extreme sports junkie, a martial artist, a dancer, a musician or someone who's had a car crash, etc., it's a lot easier to reach agreement..

 

As you know from scripture atman = Brahman. Nirvikalpa is simply that confirmation. However, from observation, for most people that first-hand experience causes massive confusion. Discussion of the theory in the case of most people who have no first-hand experience tends to be entirely counterproductive. Even discussions with those who have direct first-hand experience can be counterproductive in many (perhaps most) cases.

 

So, the question can be reformulated as "Is it possible to remain in the Flow state and function in the world?"

 

The answer is that the Flow state (by everyone's own first-hand experience) is the smoothest, most satisfying worldly functioning and the trick is merely to extend that experience of happiness and peace into other activities/non-activities (as opposed to being stuck with a very expensive and dangerous addiction - in the case of any adrenaline junkies who may happen across this post. ).

Yes, a flow state..an ever changing state of non-duality and duality, a state of flux.....and the answer is both yes and no...because to experience a non-duality state (samadhi or rigpa), the mind must engage in the practice of samatha, one way or the others..either in your meditation or in your sleep.  There has to be some moments for the mind to calm down and to settle down for the non-duality to emerge.  Depending on the strenght of your concentration, the non-duality may last from seconds to hours.  After that, the non-duality state would give rise to the duality state, of which most people would experience in their daily lives.  The cycles would continue on.  

 

Even the concept of wu wai wu isn't a permanent state.  I experienced the wu wai wu when my life was in danger literally (some SUV driver tried to run me over with his truck while I was cycling in the city).  I still didn't understand how I managed to avoid from getting hit by the truck.  I remembered I did some Maxtrix 180 degree move on the bike and ending up not crashing to the truck.    

Edited June 22, 2015 by ChiForce

[gatito]

seems strange that you would say that Gatito being that any and all "spiritual" students and or masters are spiritual warriors in one sense or another or on a path in one sense or another of at least being a warrior in seeking and standing for dharmic and universal truth or truths.

 

Well, I guess that's because you see things differently from the way that I see them 3bob.

 

It's good to have different perspectives, it adds a bit of edge.

 

So, as I said, chacun à son goût!!

 

[voidisyinyang]

I just wanted to post that "nondualism" has a lot of misunderstanding because it's still based on symmetric logic from Vedic Brahmin philosophy.

 

Sahaja samadhi is actually very rare - Ramana Maharshi and Poonjaji said only about 6 people at any time on Earth have achieved this sahaja samadhi state.

 

In mahayana Buddhism we learn there are different levels of Emptiness and different levels of consciousness.

 

This is explained well in Taoist Yoga alchemy (insert fancy Chinese term here).

 

So nondualism is an infinite process of transformation through yin-yang-Emptiness or complementary opposites.

 

You can listen to the Emptiness but you can't see it but the Emptiness as a spacetime vortex creates the light energy as spirit-consciousness.

 

So that is how the consciousness goes into the Emptiness.

 

We can do this as the space between our thoughts but that is just a minor level of Emptiness called the "void" - or relative Emptiness.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is the Emptiness as Absolute Emptiness as detailed in the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality - so you can see light outside the body at this point but also the whole body is filled with qi energy.

 

So the brain manifests the yuan qi and yuan shen but both originate from the heart as a pre-natal or immortal level of consciousness in the Emptiness.

 

The Yuan Qi is the Emptiness while the Yuan Shen is the consciousness going into the Emptiness.

 

This is why Ramana said focus on the Heart and Buddha taught the Heart Sutra as the highest and yet simplest teaching.

 

But to build up the qi you need to have the foundation in the lower tan tien as the unification and storage of qi and shen energy - called the Cavity of Spirit and Vitality.

 

Ramana Maharshi said that if a person does stay in Nirvikalpa Samadhi for more than a week then very easily the person's body will die.

 

This is also taught by the original human culture from 70,000 BCE - the source of the spiritual training for humans - the Bushmen culture - going into !Kia samadhi state is to have the laser light energy go out of the eyes - but when the spirit leaves the body then a person can really die. So each time this is done it really is transcending death.

 

On a deep level - when nirvikalpi samadhi is really focused on then the heart does really stop - but the body can keep functioning because it is maintained by the pure qi-shen energy.

 

So that type of energy is the unified nondual energy as Emptiness-Consciousness that is creating Yuan Jing energy all the time - physical transformations.

 

From India - this is the three gunas teaching - so in Buddhism it's called Boddhisattva - or "pure mind" - and so the three gunas - Ramana Maharshi teaches this is nondualism as the "three in one unity" - and so the mind has to be in sattva state - pure light energy to get into the Emptiness as formless awareness.

 

Ramana Maharshi points out that formless awareness is NOT light - but it creates light - and so nondualism is the eternal process of energy creation from the three in one unity - the complementary opposites as the Tai Chi symbol.

 

So to really open up the heart as nirvikalpa samadhi requires first building up the lower tan tien energy through fine tuning harmonization.

 

Ramana Maharshi said this requires vegetarian diet since otherwise the body is too strong and the mind is too weak - from the lower frequency or higher amplitude energy of the meat diet. But at the same time as a vegetarian diet the Brahmin Vedic training requires separation from females - and so even if a Brahmin priest made eye contact with females it required a 3 day purification ritual.

 

So to practice tantra - in normal society - does not enable real Jhana Yoga mind meditation. So this is why Poonjaji said that when the Westerners studied with him - what happened is the male and females just ended up hooking up for sex.

 

Because as taught in Taoist Yoga when you begin to increase the energy that also increases the passion heart energy - this is the strong emotional energy but it still needs to be surpassed to really get into the Emptiness - and so deeper breathing of the lungs as the White Tiger energy increases and transforms the yin qi into yuan qi energy.

 

So in nondualism these differences are not well understood since the mind yoga is the highest level of practice and so the most powerful but it is also the simplest teaching - and so very easily misunderstood.

 

It is very difficult to transform the final level of consciousness - the consciousness of the body - and so this is why raja yoga relied on full lotus meditation since that creates a stable unity of movement and Emptiness - through the complementary opposite resonance of the body-mind.

 

This is why Mahayana Buddhism says Ramana Maharshi did not achieve the final state of Supreme Complete Enlightenment since he required people to take care of his body while it wasted away - and so his training was based on a inherent caste system hierarchy. the mind yoga training does not require the need to protect the body from vulnerability - and so the caste system has warriors to do that and then servants to take care of the body physically, etc.

 

Whereas the three gunas is the older Dravidian philosophy of India - and so Ramana was not clear about this as he practiced in a Brahmin style of mind yoga but his own language and culture was from a more Dravidian foundation.

 

But Ramana Maharshi did state that the karma of the world is very low right now and so even if there are 6 people in sahaja samadhi state in the purified Himalaya cave energy - they can not transform the whole world.

 

Mahayana Buddhism teaches this also - that there is not even much point in meditating in modern times since it just causes righteous anger to increase all the time because as Taoist Yoga teaches - that is the liver energy that needs to be purified and transformed into the Green Dragon energy for increased yin qi energy.

 

So the usual day to day living does not enable living in a nondualist state - it is a very rare achievement and even more so when it is unified with the body's energy. Ramana Maharshi is said to have taken on the bad karma of his students and that is why his body got sick. If a spiritual master is doing healing - then they are not going to be able to store up their energy for physical immortality.

 

So it is like Milarepa in his samadhi state - when he was in full lotus meditation he was fed by the Dakini energy - the Yuan Jing energy created by the unification of Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi - manifested as goddess love energy. But when he went out of full lotus samadhi then he lived off eating stinging nettles and so his skin turned green.

[3bob]

Lets not forget that Spirit does the choosing along the lines above, and not any person... for a person may only prepare and make readiness - thus the crossing is not made per their will, mind or soul alone except in the sense of surrender by them reaching out to Spirit and Spirit reaching back via its inviolate and innate wisdom.

[Geof Nanto]

Lets not forget that Spirit does the choosing along the lines above, and not any person... for a person may only prepare and make readiness - thus the crossing is not made per their will, mind or soul alone except in the sense of surrender by them reaching out to Spirit and Spirit reaching back via its inviolate and innate wisdom.

 

Thanks, well said. 

[dawei]

Lets not forget that Spirit does the choosing along the lines above, and not any person... for a person may only prepare and make readiness - thus the crossing is not made per their will, mind or soul alone except in the sense of surrender by them reaching out to Spirit and Spirit reaching back via its inviolate and innate wisdom.

 

So the lines above have not reached the point of showing how a person can directly visit a Spirit and be in its presence...or the explanation above doesn't intent to really try to suggest that.

[voidisyinyang]

If you achieve nirvikalpa samadhi then the body channels have to be open first - filled with qi. In Taoist Yoga Alchemy this is called opening up the "yin heel channels" - and so the lower tan tien has been filled with yin qi from the Ocean of Qi - the Yin Conception Vessel.

 

So if you can not sit in full lotus in ease for 2 hours - then nirvikalpa samadhi has not be achieved - you should be able to feel strong electromagnetic force between the palms of the hands. Any pain in the legs - you can use the sword fingers of the hands to emit qi energy to clear out the blockages.

 

Nondualism is big in the white western male "enlightenment" scene but this was a problem even for Japanese Zen - it became too much of a mental construct.

 

The mind on its own is too weak - so the body channels have to first be opened up to increase the mind's focus and power of the pineal gland.

 

Then the heart opens up as the real Emptiness - called the Tai Chi - and it is through the unification of yuan shen and yuan qi.

 

The focus on the heart is first through loving kindness or compassion energy - achieved the deep slow breathing and internal listening - and when the yin qi builds up you begin seeing light. Then you focus that light on its source in the heart.

 

But if the body channels have not been opened yet then nondualism has not been experienced. There is the void and then the Emptiness as absolute void - nondualism is the latter.

 

The confusion is that nondualism as a philosophy ignores the complementary opposites - and so nondualism as monism is based on the phonetic dualistic language structure. So it's a catch-22 situation that is amenable to Western philosophy since it's the foundation of it.

 

It's very easy for Westerners to follow nondualism since it won't really challenge western philosophy since it prioritizes the mind over the body. But unless the body is transformed first the mind will remain to weak and real samadhi is not achieved. When the body channels fill with qi only then can the heart really open up to open up the pineal gland and then increasingly open up the heart.

 

So nirvikalpa samadhi is rare to achieve and then what happens is yogis get lost in the astral realms instead of just focusing on the original source of the energy - from the Emptiness.

 

So to function in nondualism - the Vedic Brahmin priests - via Jnana philosophy - taught that if a person is not healed it just means their karma is not ready for it - only God or Brahman heals, etc.

 

So that passes the blame to the karmic hierarchical relationships - and then the Brahmin priests say there is no proof for achieving nondualism - it is just a logical proof of the infinite.

 

This becomes very much like Western religion - and in fact is the source of it: "I am that I am" as a tautological circular definition of God.

 

In reality Brahman is from the Indo-European root word for Bull just as God comes from Gott as the Indo-European root word for Bull.

 

And so then this is from a patriarchal definition to contain infinity within the body as an alchemical materialistic religion.

 

And so the complementary opposites aspect of the training was repressed and lied about - the land is female as yin qi energy. Instead you just avoid females and don't talk about it and so the silver lunar energy was repressed - which governs life on Earth.

 

So then plow-based farming by the males is raping the land but that is the basis for the Bull farming of the Brahmins.

 

Instead the Brahmins teach you just go directly into formless awareness - and it is not based on complementary opposites.

 

Ramana Maharshi calls this the sense of I-I that arises from the heart.

 

A real guru in sahaja samadhi can go to the level all the time - beyond the physical heart.

 

It is a very rare ability - but again it is not limited to just that heart level but in reality is based on the complementary opposites of the whole universe.

[ChiForce]

If you achieve nirvikalpa samadhi then the body channels have to be open first - filled with qi. In Taoist Yoga Alchemy this is called opening up the "yin heel channels" - and so the lower tan tien has been filled with yin qi from the Ocean of Qi - the Yin Conception Vessel.

 

So if you can not sit in full lotus in ease for 2 hours - then nirvikalpa samadhi has not be achieved - you should be able to feel strong electromagnetic force between the palms of the hands. Any pain in the legs - you can use the sword fingers of the hands to emit qi energy to clear out the blockages.

 

Nondualism is big in the white western male "enlightenment" scene but this was a problem even for Japanese Zen - it became too much of a mental construct.

 

The mind on its own is too weak - so the body channels have to first be opened up to increase the mind's focus and power of the pineal gland.

 

Then the heart opens up as the real Emptiness - called the Tai Chi - and it is through the unification of yuan shen and yuan qi.

 

The focus on the heart is first through loving kindness or compassion energy - achieved the deep slow breathing and internal listening - and when the yin qi builds up you begin seeing light. Then you focus that light on its source in the heart.

 

But if the body channels have not been opened yet then nondualism has not been experienced. There is the void and then the Emptiness as absolute void - nondualism is the latter.

 

The confusion is that nondualism as a philosophy ignores the complementary opposites - and so nondualism as monism is based on the phonetic dualistic language structure. So it's a catch-22 situation that is amenable to Western philosophy since it's the foundation of it.

 

It's very easy for Westerners to follow nondualism since it won't really challenge western philosophy since it prioritizes the mind over the body. But unless the body is transformed first the mind will remain to weak and real samadhi is not achieved. When the body channels fill with qi only then can the heart really open up to open up the pineal gland and then increasingly open up the heart.

 

So nirvikalpa samadhi is rare to achieve and then what happens is yogis get lost in the astral realms instead of just focusing on the original source of the energy - from the Emptiness.

 

So to function in nondualism - the Vedic Brahmin priests - via Jnana philosophy - taught that if a person is not healed it just means their karma is not ready for it - only God or Brahman heals, etc.

 

So that passes the blame to the karmic hierarchical relationships - and then the Brahmin priests say there is no proof for achieving nondualism - it is just a logical proof of the infinite.

 

This becomes very much like Western religion - and in fact is the source of it: "I am that I am" as a tautological circular definition of God.

 

In reality Brahman is from the Indo-European root word for Bull just as God comes from Gott as the Indo-European root word for Bull.

 

And so then this is from a patriarchal definition to contain infinity within the body as an alchemical materialistic religion.

 

And so the complementary opposites aspect of the training was repressed and lied about - the land is female as yin qi energy. Instead you just avoid females and don't talk about it and so the silver lunar energy was repressed - which governs life on Earth.

 

So then plow-based farming by the males is raping the land but that is the basis for the Bull farming of the Brahmins.

 

Instead the Brahmins teach you just go directly into formless awareness - and it is not based on complementary opposites.

 

Ramana Maharshi calls this the sense of I-I that arises from the heart.

 

A real guru in sahaja samadhi can go to the level all the time - beyond the physical heart.

 

It is a very rare ability - but again it is not limited to just that heart level but in reality is based on the complementary opposites of the whole universe.

Seriously, great write up.  Yes, many look at non-duality as a mental construct...a mind game..a thought concept...until you experience a samadhi.  Then, the mind becomes no mind.  Thoughts become no thoughts.  

[gatito]

Lets not forget that Spirit does the choosing along the lines above, and not any person... for a person may only prepare and make readiness - thus the crossing is not made per their will, mind or soul alone except in the sense of surrender by them reaching out to Spirit and Spirit reaching back via its inviolate and innate wisdom.

 

True enough to a certain point but you are that "Spirit" (i.e. ātman), tat tvam asi (तत् त्वम् असि), therefore the grace is your own although, as you point out, not the jiva's. The failure to recognise this results in the scourge of neo-advaita.

 

There are hundreds of yukti (युक्ति) available to a jiva to facilitate that grace. As you're fond of quoting Lakshman Joo you should be aware that the Vijñānabhairava tantra makes this clear (as does the Bhagavad Gita, albeit from a different perspective).

Edited June 25, 2015 by gatito

[voidisyinyang]

Seriously, great write up.  Yes, many look at non-duality as a mental construct...a mind game..a thought concept...until you experience a samadhi.  Then, the mind becomes no mind.  Thoughts become no thoughts.  

 

thanks I have added that to my latest blog update

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/06/solstice-b-day-yuan-qi-yuan-shen-heart.html

 

I just spent 5 days with a qigong master who is in this Emptiness nondualism state all the time - but he says he only achieves the deep heart opening once a month while the original qigong master is in that deep heart beyond death experience all the time - the sahaja samadhi state.

 

In other words - the nirvikalpi samadhi needs to be focused on in a very deep state to achieve the sahaja samadhi state.

 

Most yogis don't keep focusing on the nirvikalpi samadhi - the true Emptiness - but instead get focused on the astral realms.

 

And so again if you do keep focusing on the nirvikalpi samadhi it also stops the heart and so it is very dangerous - but once achieved then the sahaja samadhi state is achieved for a permanent eternal liberation of the ego.

 

That still levels the emptiness of the body channels to work on though - as part of the complementary opposites of the universe energy.

[noonespecial]

Yes it is, just dont judge ANYTHING

[3bob]

So the lines above have not reached the point of showing how a person can directly visit a Spirit and be in its presence...or the explanation above doesn't intent to really try to suggest that.

 

The "lines above" are from the other guy so he would have to answer your specific questions regarding his text.... but in my side comment I didn't mean to say a spirit as in an individual soul, but Spirit like in an immeasurable Ocean.

[3bob]

True enough to a certain point but you are that "Spirit" (i.e. ātman), tat tvam asi (तत् त्वम् असि), therefore the grace is your own although, as you point out, not the jiva's. The failure to recognise this results in the scourge of neo-advaita.

 

There are hundreds of yukti (युक्ति) available to a jiva to facilitate that grace. As you're fond of quoting Lakshman Joo you should be aware that the Vijñānabhairava tantra makes this clear (as does the Bhagavad Gita, albeit from a different perspective).

 

ok, I don't really hear any major difference, although I feel my text was given in a more generic form.