Is it possible to remain in the Non-dual state and function in the world?

[3bob]

...ah, umm, oh heck - Om works 

Edited June 25, 2015 by 3bob

[gatito]

ok, I don't really hear any major difference, although I feel my text was given in a more generic form.  

 

My mistake 3bob, I completely misunderstood  - the limitations of the written word again.

 

Apologies.

 

...ah, umm, oh heck - Om works 

 

Yes. That's pretty clear!

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Drew,

 

You said

So I would say - yes it is possible to maintain personal yuan shen awareness for the nondual reality but that it takes training and that is not necessarily needed - a good book that discusses this from a personal perspective is the book "Transcendent Dreaming" wherein a kungfu qigong student has physical transformations of other people, etc. via her dream state that goes beyond a lucid dreaming state and beyond even precognitive visions - she actually wakes up with physical jing transformations on her body still.

 

The book finally came and I read it.

 

What an interesting book.

 

Thanks for pointing it out!

[allinone]

I don't know or even know of any true immortals to know if this is possible.  My observations so far is that everyone is going to die.

 

You see only what your senses are showing to you. But the thing what you acknowledge there within senses is the essence what allows you to see what you see - Its suffering.

Seeing that body doesn't move anymore and disappears that knowledge doesn't mean anything for others, its only true for you. Thats no-self.

The knowledge what you see there is impermanent but you cling to it as it is permanent. You tell that people die but at the same time clinging to that view as it is permanent.

 

if conceptual mind defeated then realize real self and then open the heart by accepting other peoples truths by realizing your own real self truth sucks.

Edited July 2, 2015 by allinone

[Bud Jetsun]

The imposition of limitations on the non-dual state arises from a human ego creating delusions of limitations of the non-dual state. 

 

The dual state is only illusion. 

[Marblehead]

You see only what your senses are showing to you. But the thing what you acknowledge there within senses is the essence what allows you to see what you see - Its suffering.

How many times do I have to tell Y'all that I don't suffer?  That's someone else role to play.

 

Yes, I can see only what I can see.  That should be obvious.  I cannot see anyone else's illusions and delusions.

 

Seeing that body doesn't move anymore and disappears that knowledge doesn't mean anything for others, its only true for you. Thats no-self.

The knowledge what you see there is impermanent but you cling to it as it is permanent. You tell that people die but at the same time clinging to that view as it is permanent.

That is all jumbled up.  Death happens.  It is the last act of the cycle of life.  And yes, I am referring to the physical body.  There are no examples whatever that this is not true.  No, I don't know what happens to the soul or spirit of a person after the body dies.  You see, I haven't died yet so there is no way for me to know.  Those who say they know really don't know.  Those who say they don't know are right.

 

if conceptual mind defeated then realize real self and then open the heart by accepting other peoples truths by realizing your own real self truth sucks.

No, my truth does not suck.  It works very well in real life.  But then, I have very few illusions and delusions, contrary to some people.  You cannot defeat the conceptual mind except by killing yourself.  Every thought is conceptual.  It cannot be defeated except by death or drugs so strong that you become brain dead.

[Marblehead]

The imposition of limitations on the non-dual state arises from a human ego creating delusions of limitations of the non-dual state. 

 

The dual state is only illusion. 

I'm having a hard time mentally dealing with this post.

 

I do disagree with the second sentence because of your use of the word "illusion".  (Maybe subjective?)

 

I will agree with your first sentence.  Possibilities are unlimited in the non-dual (Mystery) state.  There are, however, limitations in the dual (Manifest) state.  In the Manifest we have "this" and the "not this", or "that", long and short, etc.

[Bud Jetsun]

I do disagree with the second sentence because of your use of the word "illusion".  (Maybe subjective?)

 

I will agree with your first sentence.  Possibilities are unlimited in the non-dual (Mystery) state.  There are, however, limitations in the dual (Manifest) state.  In the Manifest we have "this" and the "not this", or "that", long and short, etc.

 

 

The dual state arises as an artifact of ego perception alone.  The natural state of being does not impose dualism.  For dualism to arise, one must first impose there own egos judgments to recognize a thing as having a nature tainted towards some perceived quality or it's opposite.  

 

When eyes view these arrangements of pixel states, it is as the ego recognizes familiar patterns identified as word-constructs that the judgement of interpretation and perception of intent gives rise to a dualistic view. 

 

It is not required to give rise to the dualistic view, it is a choice that carries with it an illusion of not being possible to be a choice. 

 

As a metaphor, perhaps helpful to think of the relationship between 'hear' and 'listen'. 

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Marblehead]

Ah Bud, we will continue to disagree on this.  When One gave birth to Two was the first moment of dualities.  The process has continued since that moment.

 

There really is a difference between a red traffic light and a green one.  Don't believe me?  Please don't check it out for yourself.

 

Before man there was flat land and then there was the cliff.  Those still exist today.  They didn't need man in order for them to be dualistic.

 

Yes, there is a difference between "hear" and "listen".  Actually, two different concepts although linked.  But then everything is linked even if ever so remotely.

 

When we are babies everything is one - all me.  It isn't long though before we realize that there is the "other".  That is the beginning of our dualistic thinking.  And I think it is totally natural.

[ChiForce]

The dual state arises as an artifact of ego perception alone.  The natural state of being does not impose dualism.  For dualism to arise, one must first impose there own egos judgments to recognize a thing as having a nature tainted towards some perceived quality or it's opposite.  

 

When eyes view these arrangements of pixel states, it is as the ego recognizes familiar patterns identified as word-constructs that the judgement of interpretation and perception of intent gives rise to a dualistic view. 

 

It is not required to give rise to the dualistic view, it is a choice that carries with it an illusion of not being possible to be a choice. 

 

As a metaphor, perhaps helpful to think of the relationship between 'hear' and 'listen'. 

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Is a bit more complicated.

 

A state of duality arises because you cling onto the world.  You have attachment to the world in one way or the others.  Non-duality DOES not arise because you stop your attachment.  The stopping is still an act of the ego.  A deliberated action.  Non-duality can only arise when the mind is settled at ease with no intentions to cling or to uncling an object.  It is a extremely difficult state of being to realize.  I am talking about  a non-duality as in a Samadhi and rigpa.  Not some fancy, new age "state of mind."  I am talking about a REAL state of non-duality.        

Edited July 2, 2015 by ChiForce

[ChiForce]

Ah Bud, we will continue to disagree on this.  When One gave birth to Two was the first moment of dualities.  The process has continued since that moment.

 

There really is a difference between a red traffic light and a green one.  Don't believe me?  Please don't check it out for yourself.

 

Before man there was flat land and then there was the cliff.  Those still exist today.  They didn't need man in order for them to be dualistic.

 

Yes, there is a difference between "hear" and "listen".  Actually, two different concepts although linked.  But then everything is linked even if ever so remotely.

 

When we are babies everything is one - all me.  It isn't long though before we realize that there is the "other".  That is the beginning of our dualistic thinking.  And I think it is totally natural.

Yes...if there are no cars, why you even need a traffic light and going through all the troubles trying to pretend a red light is also a green light...hehehehe....

[Bud Jetsun]

ChiForce- Perhaps we have a different model of the natural state of being.

 

The natural state is what we trade away in exchange for running our internal dialogue of ego delusion. We trade its infinite perfect peace in exchange for concerns about our delusions of things which have not yet happend, along with the choice to recreate our delusions of previous experiences. (Non-Now being)

 

If one chooses to recognize that nobody else can think their thoughts for them, and uses that awareness to recognize there never has been a moment without perfect mindfulness.

 

It simply requires perfect mindfulness to conclude and still the normally endless running stream of thought construct delusions and choose to enjoy the unbreakable peace of Now being.

 

I know nothing, and words inherently lack the capacity to express truth. I can only share my own limited life experiences, which have shown me the timeless and infinitly peaceful natural state is what's left when the normally unceasing loops of human thought delusion/constructs conclude.

 

When they begin again, the state is lost as though you never had it. However, the loss of the state is not the loss of the realizations the state enabled.

 

With unlimited Love,

-Bud

[ChiForce]

ChiForce- Perhaps we have a different model of the natural state of being.

 

The natural state is what we trade away in exchange for running our internal dialogue of ego delusion. We trade its infinite perfect peace in exchange for concerns about our delusions of things which have not yet happend, along with the choice to recreate our delusions of previous experiences. (Non-Now being)

 

If one chooses to recognize that nobody else can think their thoughts for them, and uses that awareness to recognize there never has been a moment without perfect mindfulness.

 

It simply requires perfect mindfulness to conclude and still the normally endless running stream of thought construct delusions and choose to enjoy the unbreakable peace of Now being.

 

I know nothing, and words inherently lack the capacity to express truth. I can only share my own limited life experiences, which have shown me the timeless and infinitly peaceful natural state is what's left when the normally unceasing loops of human thought delusion/constructs conclude.

 

When they begin again, the state is lost as though you never had it. However, the loss of the state is not the loss of the realizations the state enabled.

 

With unlimited Love,

-Bud

No, there are no models.  Is like you went to sleep one night and woke up and surrounded by a large field of white luminous light, as far as your consciousness can see.  Similar to when you are about to die and what happened to you in your bardo experience.  You have forgotten that you have a body.  You have forgotten why you were even born on this earth.  Your immediate reality is the conscious awareness that you are now living in this large field of white luminous light.  There are no ups, sideways, or downs.  There is no heaven or earth.  Everywhere you turn, is just this white luminous white field of light.  I was in this state for few seconds, in one morning while I was in my dream, meditative state.  I broke off this concentration because I realized that I have to take care of my parents.  It was then, my consciousness moved away from this non-duality and then I became aware that I have a body and still sleeping in my bed.  Then, I became aware that I needed to breathe.  After that, my chi began to circulate in my body and I experienced all the wind and yang energy running through my channels and feeling very hot.  So, my chi actually stopped for few seconds.  I have been on my path for over 20 years and this was the only time I actually experienced a genuine rigpa.   

 

 

A non-duality is the objective state of the mind reality.  It has been this way eons ago and it would be this way eons later.  There are no models. 

Edited July 3, 2015 by ChiForce

[Marblehead]

A non-duality is the objective state of the mind reality.  It has been this way eons ago and it would be this way eons later.  There are no models. 

I like that.

[dwai]

Is a bit more complicated.

 

A state of duality arises because you cling onto the world. You have attachment to the world in one way or the others. Non-duality DOES not arise because you stop your attachment. The stopping is still an act of the ego. A deliberated action. Non-duality can only arise when the mind is settled at ease with no intentions to cling or to uncling an object. It is a extremely difficult state of being to realize. I am talking about a non-duality as in a Samadhi and rigpa. Not some fancy, new age "state of mind." I am talking about a REAL state of non-duality.

That is a state of neutrality not non-duality. I still maintain that non duality as in turiya state is not possible all the time

[ChiForce]

That is a state of neutrality not non-duality. I still maintain that non duality as in turiya state is not possible all the time

Is close and closer.... 

[Bud Jetsun]

Your model of being in a field of white luminous light is still a model.

 

The experience is more akin to becoming light than your model of a being surrounded by light.

 

While we use words to describe the indescribable, we are all just trading delusions and models, or they couldn't be fit into words.

[ChiForce]

Your model of being in a field of white luminous light is still a model.

 

The experience is more akin to becoming light than your model of a being surrounded by light.

 

While we use words to describe the indescribable, we are all just trading delusions and models, or they couldn't be fit into words.

Hahahahahaha....that is what emptiness is.  That is what void is!!!!  Just white light.  Practitioners do not realize Samadhi just because they are clinging onto a model.  Hehehehehehehe....   Sure, you can argue all you want and to play with models.  When you are about to die and lying on your bed, no models can help you to become liberated.  That's why a non-duality state has no models.  When your brain is dead, all models go with it.  

 

Is a good idea to research on some of the terms we have been using to discuss the non-duality state.  Is for your own good.         

[voidisyinyang]

How are we to conceive of Supreme Consciousness (Chaitanya

Brahman)?

M.: As that which is.

D.: Should it be thought of as Self-Effulgent?

M.: It transcends light and darkness. An individual (jiva) sees both.

The Self enlightens the individual to see light and darkness.

 

and

 

 

The

intellect derives light from the Self (the Higher Power). How can

the reflected and partial light of the intellect envisage the whole

and the original Light? The intellect cannot reach the Self and how

can it ascertain its nature?

 

and

 

 

The Heart is selfluminous.

Light arises from the Heart and reaches the brain, which is

the seat of the mind. The world is seen with the mind, that is, by the

reflected light of the Self. It is perceived with the aid of the mind. When

the mind is illumined it is aware of the world. When it is not itself so

illumined, it is not aware of the world. If the mind is turned in towards

the source of light, objective knowledge ceases and Self alone shines

forth as the Heart.

The moon shines by the reflected light of the sun. When the sun has

set, the moon is useful for revealing objects. When the sun has risen,

no one needs the moon, although the pale disc of the moon is visible

in the sky.

So it is with the mind and the Heart. The mind is useful because of its

reflected light. It is used for seeing objects. When it is turned inwards,

the source of illumination shines forth by itself, and the mind remains

dim and useless like the moon in day-time.

 

and

 

 

Similarly with the mind. To see the objects the reflected light of the

mind is necessary. To see the Heart it is enough that the mind is turned

towards it. Then the mind loses itself and the Heart shines forth.

 

and

 

 

People want

to see the Self as something new. But it is eternal and remains the

same all along. They desire to see it as a blazing light, etc. How

can it be so? It is not light, not darkness (na tejo, na tamah). It

is only as it is. It cannot be defined.

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fselfdefinition.org%2Framana%2FTalks-with-Sri-Ramana-Maharshi--complete.pdf&ei=HB6XVYyfGIPrtQXMqqPACA&usg=AFQjCNGvzTcTMnUzNOIz14Xnw7e_auVm_A&bvm=bv.96952980,d.b2w&cad=rja

 

pdf link Talks with Ramana Maharshi.

[3bob]

pop goes the weasel

[ChiForce]

and

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fselfdefinition.org%2Framana%2FTalks-with-Sri-Ramana-Maharshi--complete.pdf&ei=HB6XVYyfGIPrtQXMqqPACA&usg=AFQjCNGvzTcTMnUzNOIz14Xnw7e_auVm_A&bvm=bv.96952980,d.b2w&cad=rja

 

pdf link Talks with Ramana Maharshi.

Yes but you are already advanced enough to see this light field in your samadhi, you are already closer to the non-duality state of the mind.   

 

Remember, we are talking a non-duality state as experienced in a Samadhi and Jhana.  We aren't just talking about how to explain and rationalize what a non-duality state is.  What models the mind try to cling onto, it would not carry over to its samadhi realization. Let alone in one's death bardo experience. 

[3bob]

Not sure what you are saying Chi force? I'd say the point the quotes are making is beyond any state of mind experience, or that which the mind can not reach, even a mind full of light...or "luminosity".

[ChiForce]

Not sure what you are saying Chi force? I'd say the point the quotes are making is beyond any state of mind experience, or that which the mind can not reach, even a mind full of light...or "luminosity".

The difference between conceptually grasping the meaning of non-duality...versus to grasp it through wisdom from the phenomenal experience.......are two different things.

 

In a more plain language, you know the difference between knowing the path and to walk it?  Many claim they know the path.  Few who can walk it.      

[Bud Jetsun]

A response of more pronounced model clinging and assumption does not make your description of what is indescribable better than another.

 

A different type of model is not lack of model.

[3bob]

what the oxymoron grasping with wisdom are you talking about Chi force?

 

I'd say the R. quotes also point to beyond the "path" or walking it, for once there - it is (already) there with no further path or a walker of same.