Is it possible to remain in the Non-dual state and function in the world?

[voidisyinyang]

I'm gonna defer to my previous comments but elaborate some more.

 

Ramana Maharshi concedes that the sattva mind as light is what then merges with the light of the Self but he also emphasizes that in the sahaja samadhi state the jnana is not aware of what is going on in physical reality - only the nondual Self reality remains - he calls this the unified triad of sattva-raja-tamas. But it is more like with every breath and thought he takes the light-qi of his mind empties out past his physical heart level.

 

So for example Poonjaji was asked by 6 different households to be a guest for his birthday - so he unwittingly created 6 physical bodies - yang shen - that attended these parties - his mind was unaware that the Self did this.

 

Another example is Poonjaji had to deliver some paychecks of his mine workers - by driving this steep curvy mountain pass - but he had worked so much he was asleep the whole time he drove - the Self drove the path for him so he could deliver the paychecks.

 

These are described in the memoir of Poonjaji - "Nothing Ever Happens" as an example of "nonduality" in action.

 

But the big issue here is the Vedantic tradition relies on phonetic dualistic language to explain the training - and so this unified triad concept that Ramana refers to becomes difficult to understand.

 

In fact the unified triad is an infinite process of complementary opposites - this is only understood by a deep analysis of the problems of symmetric logic applied to visual geometry as number measurements. I have done this analysis which I linked previously - based on citing mathematicians, etc.

 

O.K. so in contrast Sri Aurobindo did recognize this issue of complementary opposites - in which case the jnana samadhi continuously goes from a state of self-aware consciousness and then into the Emptiness and back into ego awareness.

 

The qigong master has confirmed that in the Emptiness of formless awareness - there is no ego-mind awareness.

 

Ramana Maharshi describes it well as unlike sleep because the perceptions are still there but just remain in a potential state - and awareness does remain - so it's just a very impersonal light awareness.

 

I consider this very much how science explains a black hole turning into a white hole - there is a 180 degree shift of the time-space continuum - and so the white light comes out the other side but it has transformed the information that had gone into the black hole.

 

In other words lets say your mind has a question about something - you then focus the light of the ego into the Emptiness and you lose personal awareness in the nondual state but you come out of that black hole with the answer to your question!

 

Sri Aurobindo recognized this paradox of samadhi and he stated it is exactly like the paradox of quantum physics which says there is inherent uncertainty in the measurements of time and frequency - the more you know of one, the less of the other and vice versa.

 

But the key of the unified triad is that to reach the Emptiness as nirvikalpa samadhi you do have to fine tune and resonate the physical and emotional qi energy along with the spirit energy.

 

The thing that is key is ONLY the Emptiness can harmonize these three levels and as soon as your mind as ego applies the energy this creates a disharmony that has to be harmonized again - and so the process has to keep continuing into the Emptiness.

 

The Vedic philosophy of jnana insists that only the Emptiness as shakti does any healing or any other spiritual manifestations and the ego can not or should not do so. If the mind is doing this then it is the siddhis - which is more like psychic power - and so is limited and causes disharmony.

 

I would say that the yuan qi details of alchemy training explain this difference very well - essentially you do turn the light back around - in this case to the right side of the heart which Taoist Yoga explains as the source of Yuan Qi energy.

 

You can not "see" Yuan Qi energy but then it creates more Yuan Shen energy on the left side of the heart.

 

So Ramana Maharshi corroborates Taoist Yoga by detailing this very exact experience - he transcended death by a shock of electrical energy restarting his heart - his awareness was maintained - or the impersonal awareness of the Emptiness was maintained - and so the shock went from the right side of the heart to the left and then restarted his heart-mind as the spiritual ego.

 

So he says how the right side of the heart is a pinhole to the formless awareness of the whole Universe and this is how the qigong masters describe it also - calling it the "point of origination" and that it is holographic - two-dimensional.

 

One experience I have had a few times - Poonjaji says how the very first thought you have at waking up is an experience of this nondual awareness - the very first breath you have before the ego mind turns on. I have had this experience a few times where I am aware of the light shooting up from my heart into my mind - and by doing so turning on my ego mind to put me in my waking state. It's a pretty wild breath or first thought upon waking experience - to realize that your mind is actually just a fake device like switching on a computer or a camera light as Ramana Maharshi describes it.

 

The mind light is just this partial reflection of the light of the Self but when the light of the Self shines the mind-ego is completely unaware it is going on - and so it is like losing consciousness and yet the light of the Self has the ability to harmonize or "get the job" done as it were. Or you could say we just think our minds are the real actors when in fact the Self is the real actor the whole time - it just shines up through our brains and out of our eyes and so we are under the illusion this is our self acting.

 

Now in Mahayana Buddhism this is not good enough - as Bodri and Master Nan's collaboration tome "Measuring Meditation" points out - to not be aware of what happened in the formless awareness is not enough. So then for example if a yang shen phsyical body is created - the spiritual ego of the yogi needs to be aware that they are doing this. Ramana Maharshi disagrees and instead says that is only an illusion and only the formless awareness is real.

 

Mahayana buddhism instead says the body consciousness also needs to be harmonized or emptied out - and this is very difficult to do while for Ramana Maharshi instead the body just wastes away in illness. You actually find this paradox in Ch'an Buddhism as Master Nan details in his earlier books - where the Ch'an Masters had achieved different levels. So maybe they could not heal their bodies completely yet their minds could just go into the Emptiness and therefore realize that the body was essentially a temporary energy blockage that could be ignored or known to not be the real state of bliss or unconditional love that is eternal energy transformation.

 

So for example the biography of Phra Achran Mun details how his yogi collaborator started levitating - but as soon as his mind was aware his body was levitating then he fell back down again. So he had to train his mind in samadhi to be aware his was levitating without creating a disharmony with the Emptiness that he is actually levitating. In music theory we could see this as like an octave harmonization - like a tuning of the frequencies of energy based on overtones, etc.

 

My blog posts on music theory go into this paradox of complementary opposites more - but anyway the original qigong master did convey how his heart had stopped for 2 hours and yet he was functioning fine and then it started back up again. He said he doesn't recommend that for anyone but it did happen to him and afterwords people said his healing energy was even on a more profound level. So at that point he was functioning in the nondual state or rather he embodied the Emptiness functioning and his mind was harmonized to be aware of the Emptiness functioning at the same time.

 

A similar example would be when the qigong master had his ACLs snap - he physically could not stand up but he used his unification of yuan shen-yuan qi energy through the Emptiness to then physically stand up. He didn't physically heal himself - like with the original qigong master who had his heart still stopped - both were functioning despite their physical bodies being deeply injured (or technically dead in one case) and yet the unified yuan qi-shen created a yuan jing transformation.

 

Still the concept of nondualism is problematic without understanding these dynamic of complementary opposite resonance and phonetic-based language is based on duality. Hence the paradox of nondual philosphy using a dualistic medium. The original qigong master says there is no center to the universe - and this captures the paradox well - there is an infinite process of energy creation. I had been stuck on the experience of the Emptiness as a static realm but on the contrary it requires an infinite harmonization process of the mind consciousness going into the Emptiness - this is what Ramana Maharshi called "mouna samadhi" since you can not see the Emptiness but you can listen to it. Listening is the last perception to go at death - it is the time-frequency process as pure awareness before energy as space is even created. This is called Kali creating Kala in the Vedic tradition or Guanyin in the Buddha tradition. I wrote a master's thesis on it - calling it "sound-current nondualism."

[3bob]

how PHD. titillating, which has nothing to do with supremely simple Self 

 

(meaning how many times do we dummies need to hear that you wrote this or that paper for this or that degree?  Perhaps once in passing and as a side note in self-referencing yourself would suffice?)

Edited July 4, 2015 by 3bob

[ChiForce]

A response of more pronounced model clinging and assumption does not make your description of what is indescribable better than another.

 

A different type of model is not lack of model.

My realization of the non-duality state came from my Samadhi experience. End of the story, period.  No preconceptions.  No predispositions.  No clinging or whatsoever.  In my death bardo experience, that's what I would be seeing and experiencing.  When you cling onto your conception of a non-duality state in your death bardo experience, non of it could help you to become liberated.  You are conceptually holding onto a non-duality state.  What do you have to fall back on your understanding of the non-duality state other than.......some egalitarian ideas that all non-duality is different.  Or there is no right or wrong understanding of it.  Hehehehehe......  

 

Like I said, when you are dead, all models are gone.  What is left is your habitual life energy.  

Edited July 4, 2015 by ChiForce

[ChiForce]

how PHD. titillating, which has nothing to do with supremely simple Self 

Actually, Innersoundqigong has some good stuff there but most of it are beyond conceptualization.  Unless you have advanced a great deal in your realization, none of what he wrote would make any sense.  Third eye meeting the heart and thereby opening the center channels?  Most of you do even have your third eye opened.  Let alone trying to open your heart chakras...hence connecting to the center centrals.  LOL.  I have ample of realization experiences but I still have to read it carefully to understand it by inferring to my experiences.  Is called wisdom, son.   

Edited July 4, 2015 by ChiForce

[ChiForce]

what the oxymoron grasping with wisdom are you talking about Chi force?

 

I'd say the R. quotes also point to beyond the "path" or walking it, for once there - it is (already) there with no further path or a walker of same.

Son, is called intuition by means of inference with your phenomenal experiences.  Some of you have been trying to grasp the non-duality state as a concept, worst, a model supposedly even existed in the realm of the death bardo experience.  You do know that in your death bardo experience, it is the high time for the person to experience the non-duality state because the body is dying and the mind can easily uncling it and to recognize the rigpa.  Right???    There are 2 incidences you can experience the non-duality state.  One in your samadhi during your meditation or dreams.  Two, when you are about to die.    

[dwai]

I'm gonna defer to my previous comments but elaborate some more.

 

Ramana Maharshi concedes that the sattva mind as light is what then merges with the light of the Self but he also emphasizes that in the sahaja samadhi state the jnana is not aware of what is going on in physical reality - only the nondual Self reality remains - he calls this the unified triad of sattva-raja-tamas. But it is more like with every breath and thought he takes the light-qi of his mind empties out past his physical heart level.

 

So for example Poonjaji was asked by 6 different households to be a guest for his birthday - so he unwittingly created 6 physical bodies - yang shen - that attended these parties - his mind was unaware that the Self did this.

 

Another example is Poonjaji had to deliver some paychecks of his mine workers - by driving this steep curvy mountain pass - but he had worked so much he was asleep the whole time he drove - the Self drove the path for him so he could deliver the paychecks.

 

These are described in the memoir of Poonjaji - "Nothing Ever Happens" as an example of "nonduality" in action.

 

But the big issue here is the Vedantic tradition relies on phonetic dualistic language to explain the training - and so this unified triad concept that Ramana refers to becomes difficult to understand.

 

In fact the unified triad is an infinite process of complementary opposites - this is only understood by a deep analysis of the problems of symmetric logic applied to visual geometry as number measurements. I have done this analysis which I linked previously - based on citing mathematicians, etc.

 

O.K. so in contrast Sri Aurobindo did recognize this issue of complementary opposites - in which case the jnana samadhi continuously goes from a state of self-aware consciousness and then into the Emptiness and back into ego awareness.

 

The qigong master has confirmed that in the Emptiness of formless awareness - there is no ego-mind awareness.

 

Ramana Maharshi describes it well as unlike sleep because the perceptions are still there but just remain in a potential state - and awareness does remain - so it's just a very impersonal light awareness.

 

I consider this very much how science explains a black hole turning into a white hole - there is a 180 degree shift of the time-space continuum - and so the white light comes out the other side but it has transformed the information that had gone into the black hole.

 

In other words lets say your mind has a question about something - you then focus the light of the ego into the Emptiness and you lose personal awareness in the nondual state but you come out of that black hole with the answer to your question!

 

Sri Aurobindo recognized this paradox of samadhi and he stated it is exactly like the paradox of quantum physics which says there is inherent uncertainty in the measurements of time and frequency - the more you know of one, the less of the other and vice versa.

 

But the key of the unified triad is that to reach the Emptiness as nirvikalpa samadhi you do have to fine tune and resonate the physical and emotional qi energy along with the spirit energy.

 

The thing that is key is ONLY the Emptiness can harmonize these three levels and as soon as your mind as ego applies the energy this creates a disharmony that has to be harmonized again - and so the process has to keep continuing into the Emptiness.

 

The Vedic philosophy of jnana insists that only the Emptiness as shakti does any healing or any other spiritual manifestations and the ego can not or should not do so. If the mind is doing this then it is the siddhis - which is more like psychic power - and so is limited and causes disharmony.

 

I would say that the yuan qi details of alchemy training explain this difference very well - essentially you do turn the light back around - in this case to the right side of the heart which Taoist Yoga explains as the source of Yuan Qi energy.

 

You can not "see" Yuan Qi energy but then it creates more Yuan Shen energy on the left side of the heart.

 

So Ramana Maharshi corroborates Taoist Yoga by detailing this very exact experience - he transcended death by a shock of electrical energy restarting his heart - his awareness was maintained - or the impersonal awareness of the Emptiness was maintained - and so the shock went from the right side of the heart to the left and then restarted his heart-mind as the spiritual ego.

 

So he says how the right side of the heart is a pinhole to the formless awareness of the whole Universe and this is how the qigong masters describe it also - calling it the "point of origination" and that it is holographic - two-dimensional.

 

One experience I have had a few times - Poonjaji says how the very first thought you have at waking up is an experience of this nondual awareness - the very first breath you have before the ego mind turns on. I have had this experience a few times where I am aware of the light shooting up from my heart into my mind - and by doing so turning on my ego mind to put me in my waking state. It's a pretty wild breath or first thought upon waking experience - to realize that your mind is actually just a fake device like switching on a computer or a camera light as Ramana Maharshi describes it.

 

The mind light is just this partial reflection of the light of the Self but when the light of the Self shines the mind-ego is completely unaware it is going on - and so it is like losing consciousness and yet the light of the Self has the ability to harmonize or "get the job" done as it were. Or you could say we just think our minds are the real actors when in fact the Self is the real actor the whole time - it just shines up through our brains and out of our eyes and so we are under the illusion this is our self acting.

 

Now in Mahayana Buddhism this is not good enough - as Bodri and Master Nan's collaboration tome "Measuring Meditation" points out - to not be aware of what happened in the formless awareness is not enough. So then for example if a yang shen phsyical body is created - the spiritual ego of the yogi needs to be aware that they are doing this. Ramana Maharshi disagrees and instead says that is only an illusion and only the formless awareness is real.

 

Mahayana buddhism instead says the body consciousness also needs to be harmonized or emptied out - and this is very difficult to do while for Ramana Maharshi instead the body just wastes away in illness. You actually find this paradox in Ch'an Buddhism as Master Nan details in his earlier books - where the Ch'an Masters had achieved different levels. So maybe they could not heal their bodies completely yet their minds could just go into the Emptiness and therefore realize that the body was essentially a temporary energy blockage that could be ignored or known to not be the real state of bliss or unconditional love that is eternal energy transformation.

 

So for example the biography of Phra Achran Mun details how his yogi collaborator started levitating - but as soon as his mind was aware his body was levitating then he fell back down again. So he had to train his mind in samadhi to be aware his was levitating without creating a disharmony with the Emptiness that he is actually levitating. In music theory we could see this as like an octave harmonization - like a tuning of the frequencies of energy based on overtones, etc.

 

My blog posts on music theory go into this paradox of complementary opposites more - but anyway the original qigong master did convey how his heart had stopped for 2 hours and yet he was functioning fine and then it started back up again. He said he doesn't recommend that for anyone but it did happen to him and afterwords people said his healing energy was even on a more profound level. So at that point he was functioning in the nondual state or rather he embodied the Emptiness functioning and his mind was harmonized to be aware of the Emptiness functioning at the same time.

 

A similar example would be when the qigong master had his ACLs snap - he physically could not stand up but he used his unification of yuan shen-yuan qi energy through the Emptiness to then physically stand up. He didn't physically heal himself - like with the original qigong master who had his heart still stopped - both were functioning despite their physical bodies being deeply injured (or technically dead in one case) and yet the unified yuan qi-shen created a yuan jing transformation.

 

Still the concept of nondualism is problematic without understanding these dynamic of complementary opposite resonance and phonetic-based language is based on duality. Hence the paradox of nondual philosphy using a dualistic medium. The original qigong master says there is no center to the universe - and this captures the paradox well - there is an infinite process of energy creation. I had been stuck on the experience of the Emptiness as a static realm but on the contrary it requires an infinite harmonization process of the mind consciousness going into the Emptiness - this is what Ramana Maharshi called "mouna samadhi" since you can not see the Emptiness but you can listen to it. Listening is the last perception to go at death - it is the time-frequency process as pure awareness before energy as space is even created. This is called Kali creating Kala in the Vedic tradition or Guanyin in the Buddha tradition. I wrote a master's thesis on it - calling it "sound-current nondualism."

.

 

May I point out that all language is dualistic and therefore necessarily limited. It is not a limitation of "Vedantic teachings per se". Vedantic knowledge is meant to be corroborAted with experiential realization.

 

Also you are conflating samkhya terminology and advaita Vedantic concepts I think. Traditionally the ascetics of India used a secret language to convey this called "sandhya bhasha" (aka twilight language). I agree with a lot of what you're saying but I think you are falling into the same trap of too much thinking as well (be it as it may that it is after the fact )

[ChiForce]

I'm gonna defer to my previous comments but elaborate some more.

 

Ramana Maharshi concedes that the sattva mind as light is what then merges with the light of the Self but he also emphasizes that in the sahaja samadhi state the jnana is not aware of what is going on in physical reality - only the nondual Self reality remains - he calls this the unified triad of sattva-raja-tamas. But it is more like with every breath and thought he takes the light-qi of his mind empties out past his physical heart level.

 

So for example Poonjaji was asked by 6 different households to be a guest for his birthday - so he unwittingly created 6 physical bodies - yang shen - that attended these parties - his mind was unaware that the Self did this.

 

Another example is Poonjaji had to deliver some paychecks of his mine workers - by driving this steep curvy mountain pass - but he had worked so much he was asleep the whole time he drove - the Self drove the path for him so he could deliver the paychecks.

 

These are described in the memoir of Poonjaji - "Nothing Ever Happens" as an example of "nonduality" in action.

 

But the big issue here is the Vedantic tradition relies on phonetic dualistic language to explain the training - and so this unified triad concept that Ramana refers to becomes difficult to understand.

 

In fact the unified triad is an infinite process of complementary opposites - this is only understood by a deep analysis of the problems of symmetric logic applied to visual geometry as number measurements. I have done this analysis which I linked previously - based on citing mathematicians, etc.

 

O.K. so in contrast Sri Aurobindo did recognize this issue of complementary opposites - in which case the jnana samadhi continuously goes from a state of self-aware consciousness and then into the Emptiness and back into ego awareness.

 

The qigong master has confirmed that in the Emptiness of formless awareness - there is no ego-mind awareness.

 

Ramana Maharshi describes it well as unlike sleep because the perceptions are still there but just remain in a potential state - and awareness does remain - so it's just a very impersonal light awareness.

 

I consider this very much how science explains a black hole turning into a white hole - there is a 180 degree shift of the time-space continuum - and so the white light comes out the other side but it has transformed the information that had gone into the black hole.

 

In other words lets say your mind has a question about something - you then focus the light of the ego into the Emptiness and you lose personal awareness in the nondual state but you come out of that black hole with the answer to your question!

 

Sri Aurobindo recognized this paradox of samadhi and he stated it is exactly like the paradox of quantum physics which says there is inherent uncertainty in the measurements of time and frequency - the more you know of one, the less of the other and vice versa.

 

But the key of the unified triad is that to reach the Emptiness as nirvikalpa samadhi you do have to fine tune and resonate the physical and emotional qi energy along with the spirit energy.

 

The thing that is key is ONLY the Emptiness can harmonize these three levels and as soon as your mind as ego applies the energy this creates a disharmony that has to be harmonized again - and so the process has to keep continuing into the Emptiness.

 

The Vedic philosophy of jnana insists that only the Emptiness as shakti does any healing or any other spiritual manifestations and the ego can not or should not do so. If the mind is doing this then it is the siddhis - which is more like psychic power - and so is limited and causes disharmony.

 

I would say that the yuan qi details of alchemy training explain this difference very well - essentially you do turn the light back around - in this case to the right side of the heart which Taoist Yoga explains as the source of Yuan Qi energy.

 

You can not "see" Yuan Qi energy but then it creates more Yuan Shen energy on the left side of the heart.

 

So Ramana Maharshi corroborates Taoist Yoga by detailing this very exact experience - he transcended death by a shock of electrical energy restarting his heart - his awareness was maintained - or the impersonal awareness of the Emptiness was maintained - and so the shock went from the right side of the heart to the left and then restarted his heart-mind as the spiritual ego.

 

So he says how the right side of the heart is a pinhole to the formless awareness of the whole Universe and this is how the qigong masters describe it also - calling it the "point of origination" and that it is holographic - two-dimensional.

 

One experience I have had a few times - Poonjaji says how the very first thought you have at waking up is an experience of this nondual awareness - the very first breath you have before the ego mind turns on. I have had this experience a few times where I am aware of the light shooting up from my heart into my mind - and by doing so turning on my ego mind to put me in my waking state. It's a pretty wild breath or first thought upon waking experience - to realize that your mind is actually just a fake device like switching on a computer or a camera light as Ramana Maharshi describes it.

 

The mind light is just this partial reflection of the light of the Self but when the light of the Self shines the mind-ego is completely unaware it is going on - and so it is like losing consciousness and yet the light of the Self has the ability to harmonize or "get the job" done as it were. Or you could say we just think our minds are the real actors when in fact the Self is the real actor the whole time - it just shines up through our brains and out of our eyes and so we are under the illusion this is our self acting.

 

Now in Mahayana Buddhism this is not good enough - as Bodri and Master Nan's collaboration tome "Measuring Meditation" points out - to not be aware of what happened in the formless awareness is not enough. So then for example if a yang shen phsyical body is created - the spiritual ego of the yogi needs to be aware that they are doing this. Ramana Maharshi disagrees and instead says that is only an illusion and only the formless awareness is real.

 

Mahayana buddhism instead says the body consciousness also needs to be harmonized or emptied out - and this is very difficult to do while for Ramana Maharshi instead the body just wastes away in illness. You actually find this paradox in Ch'an Buddhism as Master Nan details in his earlier books - where the Ch'an Masters had achieved different levels. So maybe they could not heal their bodies completely yet their minds could just go into the Emptiness and therefore realize that the body was essentially a temporary energy blockage that could be ignored or known to not be the real state of bliss or unconditional love that is eternal energy transformation.

 

So for example the biography of Phra Achran Mun details how his yogi collaborator started levitating - but as soon as his mind was aware his body was levitating then he fell back down again. So he had to train his mind in samadhi to be aware his was levitating without creating a disharmony with the Emptiness that he is actually levitating. In music theory we could see this as like an octave harmonization - like a tuning of the frequencies of energy based on overtones, etc.

 

My blog posts on music theory go into this paradox of complementary opposites more - but anyway the original qigong master did convey how his heart had stopped for 2 hours and yet he was functioning fine and then it started back up again. He said he doesn't recommend that for anyone but it did happen to him and afterwords people said his healing energy was even on a more profound level. So at that point he was functioning in the nondual state or rather he embodied the Emptiness functioning and his mind was harmonized to be aware of the Emptiness functioning at the same time.

 

A similar example would be when the qigong master had his ACLs snap - he physically could not stand up but he used his unification of yuan shen-yuan qi energy through the Emptiness to then physically stand up. He didn't physically heal himself - like with the original qigong master who had his heart still stopped - both were functioning despite their physical bodies being deeply injured (or technically dead in one case) and yet the unified yuan qi-shen created a yuan jing transformation.

 

Still the concept of nondualism is problematic without understanding these dynamic of complementary opposite resonance and phonetic-based language is based on duality. Hence the paradox of nondual philosphy using a dualistic medium. The original qigong master says there is no center to the universe - and this captures the paradox well - there is an infinite process of energy creation. I had been stuck on the experience of the Emptiness as a static realm but on the contrary it requires an infinite harmonization process of the mind consciousness going into the Emptiness - this is what Ramana Maharshi called "mouna samadhi" since you can not see the Emptiness but you can listen to it. Listening is the last perception to go at death - it is the time-frequency process as pure awareness before energy as space is even created. This is called Kali creating Kala in the Vedic tradition or Guanyin in the Buddha tradition. I wrote a master's thesis on it - calling it "sound-current nondualism."

Ok....I read it....is a bit beyond me but I think I get you what you are saying.....to know what non-duality is, is same as not knowing what non-duality is...because the ego awareness is involved.  True....based on my own Samadhi and Jhana experiences.  Usually when the nimitta light gets too intense and I focus too much on it, the light field would diminish and the sense of bliss would be gone.  I would call it the lose of concentration or clinging onto various imagery during your samadhi.

[3bob]

Son of a gun,

 

Om tat Sat

[Marblehead]

While we are experiencing it (whatever) it is objective (non-dual).  When we start thinking about what we experienced it becomes subjective (dualistic).

 

To talk about it is subjective (dualistic).

 

First there was darkness; then Bang!, there is light.

[allinone]

Things you say has already said. How else you know them? 

 

You are a product.

Edited July 4, 2015 by allinone

[de_paradise]

Just going back to the original query. In my fairly limited experience, I find that these spiritual states, or non-egoic versus egoic state are not zero sum, or binary, but more like %. Because the states tend to be sticky, meaning that they last and continue through perturbations, one has some leeway to play with and can decide  to go towards a more associated into ego state or remain in a more peaceful state. So in the peaceful state one understands all that the ego self understands but more like an echo version, and that is couched in a blissfulness. But one has the power to turn up the volume of the ego self depending upon what equalibrium is suited for the occasion. 

[voidisyinyang]

.

 

May I point out that all language is dualistic and therefore necessarily limited. It is not a limitation of "Vedantic teachings per se". Vedantic knowledge is meant to be corroborAted with experiential realization.

 

Also you are conflating samkhya terminology and advaita Vedantic concepts I think. Traditionally the ascetics of India used a secret language to convey this called "sandhya bhasha" (aka twilight language). I agree with a lot of what you're saying but I think you are falling into the same trap of too much thinking as well (be it as it may that it is after the fact )

You are conflating me with Ramana Maharshi - he uses the term sattva mind merging into the Self and he calls it the unified triad. So yes the three gunas are from samkhya philosophy - the oldest philosophy of India and a Dravidian philosophy from Africa. Tamil, the language Ramana Maharshi spoke, is a tonal language and a Dravidian language.

 

So yes there is conflation there between Dravidian (African-based philosophy) with Vedic philosophy - and I am pointing out that is what causes confusion about nondual philosophy. The older language gets the more musical it is and therefore the musical tonal language is more precise in communicating emotional intelligence.

 

So for example I just had someone email me a pdf on how non-western cultures that have not been controlled by U.S. hollywood ideology - they use language that focuses the emotions on the body parts, based on the meridian energy channels and how this is perceived via the pineal gland.

 

Science does not understand this - science is aware of the nonwestern common terminology of the emotions to other body parts - but not aware of the origin of this terminology. So for example that in many cultures instead of saying "how are you?" the greeting question is "how is your liver?" Because in those cultures to show anger in public is the greatest shame and so the most important thing is that the liver is not clogged up - since that is the source of the anger. Westerners and Westernized cultures are too left-brain dominant to understand this connection.

 

But with a tonal language that type of question is actually built into the frequencies of the words themselves - just as the oldest Indian language is considered to be Sruti from India - tonal chanting. All modern humans originate from the Bushmen culture which is the language that is the most musical and also has the most sounds used - so it's the most sophisticated language. So we can see that Sruti is going back to this African origin of language.

 

So then we consider someone like Chuang Tzu saying that human language has no more meaning or importance to use then the sound of animals which we think is just gibberish. In fact the healing songs that the Bushmen rely on use as for their lyrics - total gibberish words!

 

Now consider music - I know a lot of people who claim to like music but in fact they place more importance on the meaning of the words then the actual emotional content of the frequencies. But it's been proven that non-western cultures never exposed to Western music can accurately identify what is known to be "happy" or "sad" or "scary" music, respectively major, minor or tritone music intervals.

 

Yes the intention of the meaning of the words is crucial since that guides the electromagnetic or yuan qi energy that drives the music - but that does not mean that music without words can have less important intention! Intention is an electromagnetic force - so many people are controlled by their subconscious intentions. There is a great book called the Haunting Melody by Theodore Reik, a psychologist friend of Freud and Brahms in Vienna - so he documented that many people get a melody in their head and at first they can't remember the words. But when they finally remember the words they realize the meaning of the words reveals the true subconscious intention of the experiences they are having. This is very similar to how old people with dementia can be catatonic and not able to speak but when they have their favorite music put to their head then they come to life, can speak, move and their memories come back in vivid. This is because music activates our reptilian vagus nerve - the cerebellum deep brain that controls emotions, body motion and the left side vagus nerve to the heart where our holographic spirit information is stored.

 

Now that is just western music which is actually very limited in meaning.

 

Ramana Marashi discusses how the real meaning of Nada Yoga is that within the sound is light energy and so by listening to the source of the sound then you create light energy.

 

This has actually been verified by science - it's called sonoluminescence but even more so it's called "sonofusion" or LENR - "low energy nuclear reactions" aka cold fusion. I think that actually Western science cold fusion verifies the secret source of listening - or sound - as an alchemical energy training.

 

My book "Alchemy of Rainbow Heart Music" goes into this in more detail - but obviously only meditation can enable this energy to be resonated and activated for a human as a whole. This has been documented that plants and birds use quantum non-local signalling - instantaneous information as quantum entanglement that corroborates the claims of nondualism - it truly is a field of formless awareness.

 

But science, while it can document nondualism as quantum biology, can not reproduce it as off-the-shelf technology because Nature is just too sophisticated for that. This is why the skeptics reject these claims - and try to ignore quantum biology - it was considered crank science until Scientific American did a cover story on quantum biology back around 2006 and M.I.T. just last year had a conference on cold fusion saying indeed it has been corroborated and should be commercialized soon. But again this is not the same as the nondualism embodiment and enactment of this type of nondual energy into a large sentience organism.

 

There can be a lot of freaky stuff with this energy - like Yan Xin saying how his friend was warned he could pick up the illnesses of the people Yan Xin had healed. There are karmic consequences of playing with the Emptiness so to speak - if you have the psychic intention of taking energy from a spiritual master - that energy could have been used to heal someone of a serious illness - and so then the Emptiness (god, etc.) actually will cause a karmic rebound against the egotistical intention. Or like I did - doing tantra you use up the Yuan Qi energy of the heart while taking in other people's yin jing holographic lower emotional lust blockages. This is what is called "Ghost Immortality" in Taoism - it is a type of lower level nondualism.

 

So actually even the term God comes from the Indo-European root word Gott which means Bull just as Brahman also means Bull - and so this is tied to the plow-based farming from wheat monoculture that the Vedic-Brahmin culture brought with it when it spread into India. This is obviously a huge emotional pressure point - but the science - the new DNA analysis has proven this spread of wheat monocultural farming beyond a doubt and confirms just exactly why Vedic religious terms are the complementary opposite of Persian religious terms. For example my name Drew means Druj in Persian or Druh in Sanskit - one means Devil and the other means Angel or God. I forget which is which but you get my point - they are complementary opposites or you might even say dualistic symmetries.

 

The linear view of time in an apocalyptic sense is based out of the Zoroastrian religion and this is tied to what archaeologists call the "symbolic revolution" - which is a philosophy of containing infinity using written language and right-hand technology. In other words as Westernized technology spreads around the world via plow-based farming and monocultural religion it standardizes space into a logarithmic symmetrical ritual mass sacrifice geometry and it also causes an acceleration of linear time - the apocalypse built into the monocultural religion. Western culture is a religion of nondualistic technology - God or Brahman as Bull spreading as logarithmic technology via symmetric-based logic.

 

In other words left-brain dominant meditation is used to turn space and time around - you use logical inference to go to the Emptiness into an UnDead state and from that Undead state you argue for a contained alchemical infinity that is defined by symmetric tautological logic - "I Am that I Am" and that logic is the basis for ritual geometry technology. So for example the "divide and average" math for the Pythagorean theorem actually originates from 3000 BC Brahmin ritual geometry that was also the basis for centering the wheel for chariots. Chariots then used to spread out the Bull cattle plow-based farming - since the intensive monocultural farming causes plagues and so relies on getting to fresh virgin territory to rape.

 

So written language is very different than older tonal African-based languages which retain a tie to the local ecologies, as David Abram's book "Spell of the Senses" points out or as musciologist Victor Grauer's book documents - in his free blogbook, "Sounding the Depths." Or as Leonard Shlain's book "The Goddess and the Alphabet" points out - as written language developed so did this idea of containing infinity geometrically - along with it patriarchy. Another good book on this topic is "When God was a Woman" by Merlin Stone.

 

So then you have the definition of God as a tautological symmetric logic of a contained infinity, "I Am that I am." In actuality the "I Am" originates from the older Dravidian tonal based languages - or the Srutis - so that AM is more like OHM or AMEN. Or to put it into music ratio terms - I is 1 and AM as OHM is 2:3:4 - the Perfect Fourth and Fifth music intervals. All human cultures intuitively use the 1-4-5 music intervals - and so this is the real unifying definition of humanity. Yang is the Perfect Fifth and Yin is the Perfect Fourth and as I document on my blog - the three gunas are also defined by these music intervals.

 

In other words the "I" is mathematically the number one (which is not a number since it is part of an infinite convergence sequence). This is tied to sacred geometry - so that for example in these early empires the music ratios were actually how the gods and goddesses were defined - but then through divide and average math the ratios were attempted to be "contained" geometrically.

 

In reality the language as a tonal language is an infinite listening process and so the infinity can not be contained geometrically - but the idea of nondualism is that once sahaja samadhi is achieved then it is called "eternal liberation" that can not be undone and this infinity is "contained" within the body of the Jnana. It is true this is a permanent achievement beyond the heart - I just spent several days with a qigong master who can achieve this state of samadhi beyond the heart but I don't think he is there all the time. He said the original qigong master is there all the time but for him he only achieves this deep heart Emptiness samadhi once a month.

 

Again only a half dozen people have even achieved sahaja samadhi on Earth but when the Western white male enlightenment scene picked this up then all sorts of New Agers claim they have achieved this realization. haha. The great ease of the Brahmin ideology is you need no "proof" for achieving sahaja samadhi since only God performs the spiritual powers and so if someone is not healed that just means that have the wrong karma to get healed.

 

And again in terms of Mahayana Buddhism - sahaja samadhi is only the emptying out of the 7th level of consciousness - the ego-mind that originates in the heart - but it is not yet emptying out the 8th level of consciousness of the universe which relies first on emptying out the consciousness of the body, the first 5 levels of consciousness.

 

So even if sahaja samadhi is achieved and it is very rare - that is still not the final level for Mahayana Buddhism "supreme complete enlightenment" and that makes perfect sense in terms of complementary opposite harmonics because in reality everything is based on an infinite resonance of energy - and so it's not just the ego-mind that is emptied out but everything can be harmonized back to its Emptiness origin. For the Brahmin priest they rely on the caste hierarchy to take care of their body which they "cast off" to illness or to protect their body while they do the meditation (no eye contact with females allowed).

 

So I would say that all written language is dualistic but consider for example Burmese, it's actually a Buddhist language and so they don't use any personal pronouns in the language - this is to emphasize that everything is just happening impersonally from the formless awareness. Or for example Ojibwe has several different pronouns for we - so that the personal pronouns are more specific, there is we as in you all and we as in us, etc. In English this misuse of "we" is a hierarchical control tactic as in "we" think this, etc. and it actually means "not you" and the person saying it is using it as a power-over materialistic control technique.

 

Still that is just a reform attempt of language around the use of subjective pronouns or not the use of them. But if you look at the history of anti-semitism it spread with the spread of written language - so for example with Platonic philosphy that has an inherent eugenics built into it - then it was not seen that the Jews could actually truly convert to Christianity in Spain - and this Platonic philosophy was picked up from the Moors. Then with the Austrian Empire they spread Germanic written language and with it the Eastern European countries began converting their spoken languages into written languages. This made the Eastern European cultures much more left-brain dominant and therefore cut off from the intuitive understanding of the right brain and the pineal gland transducing and perceiving the intelligence of the lower body organ emotions - being "possessed" by anger from a liver blockage, for example, or sadness being a lung blockage. Just as in ancient Greek - thymus was the soul as linked to the thymus gland. So what happened is as written language spread into Eastern Europe then the Jews were seen as possessing their own rival secret written language. Anti-semitism is precisely defined by this circular logical tautology - the Jews possess their "Jewishness." It's an empty signifier and only then the word "I" then is self-transcending as a signifier.

 

So originally language was tonal based and more musical and this is documented by the use of the lyre instrument to record the mythologies and histories of cultures - the musical trance enables long memorization. This is documented as the Mozart Effect based on the increase in alpha brain waves from the slow baroque middle movements of sonatas and concertos - a pace of 60 beats per minute, which is the heart beat, as the time interval, the second, was first derived from the heart beat - 60 beats per minute. So by resonating the heart through music this causes a visionary theta-alpha brain wave. Alpha brain waves increases the serotonin bliss while theta is the oxytocin deeper heart love bliss - kicked in during the deep dreamless sleep of delta brain waves. And so musical-based language actually very knowingly activated an increase in brain light - a visionary state for photographic memorization that happens during a trance dream state but this ancient skill has been lost and disregarded in our time. Most people when they hear a slow baroque movement will just fall asleep because modern culture is addicted to dopamine left-brain dominant beta waves - stress addiction from ejaculation addiction - and so people really just need more sleep and are not ready for that visionary state of awareness. haha.

 

So Ramana Maharshi says that the problem with Nada chanting is that it induces a dull trance (it's good to initiate samadhi but causes an egotistical self-satisfaction) and so the yogi then gets caught up in these visionary astral energy realms and the nirvikalpa samadhi of one-pointed concentration on the Emptiness is lost. And so the real origin of the ego in the heart is not achieved in many cases. But this problem can be applied on all levels of consciousness - as the Ch'an Buddhists point out - and so for example Master Nan, Huai-chin says that there is a great need for more critical analysis of the 6th level of consciousness - just the conceptual level of consciousness needs to be emptied out more.

 

Anthropologists and musicologists have proven that the original human culture sings the same trance dance spiritual music from before human language was even developed, 70,000 years ago! So all these "ancient" spiritual traditions of the East are really rather recent in terms of all us biological humans that originate from the Bushmen culture. Genetically the Bushmen are the most diverse human culture on Earth - we all are part of the Bushmen culture. So that is our biological history - and the culture of trance dance spiritual training is from before human language developed.

 

So when we sing we do become right brain dominant and also when we listen to music but Western tuned music inherently traps the sound into a materialistic geometry. The right brain can not "write" words. This is why the Western scale in Indian music is known as the materialist focus of the music. Western trained musicians are more left-brain dominant and just limited to those superficial emotions that I mentioned above.

 

The Westerner thinks that trance chanting music is childish because as was pointed out we are misled to think that if you repeat something over and over and expect a different result this is stupid. On the contrary if someone understands nondualistic nonlinear resonance then the repetition resonates through complementary opposites and so creates constant eternal change of energy - light from sound - and nothing is ever the same - or as Yogananda called it a "Everfresh newness." This is only achieved through this internal listening process that Ramana Maharshi called "Mouna Samadhi" (silence or sigh-lense samadhi) which is really the highest level of nondual samadhi. That is the secret of the unified triad that he refers to - it is more like the intention of the music harmonics.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[allinone]

Taken from a book The Surangama Sutra, commentary.

 

 

 

Ch’an Master Han øhan (1546-1623)

 

Samatha is the meditative study of all as void or immaterial, samàpatti is the meditative study of all as

unreal, transitory or temporal and dhyàna is the meditative study of the Mean as inclusive of both.

...

The very idea of existence implies a dwelling place, hence its clinging. Therefore, both is and is

not are a dualism which has no room in the True Mind.

...

This eliminated the false mind to expose the first inversion. Before wiping out this false mind, the

Buddha spoke of the Path of øamatha because His aim was now to reveal the substance of the

Great Samàdhi. øamatha is meditative study of the void. As the pure and clean True Mind of the

Tathàgata store (or the Absolute in the midst of delusion caused by the passions and desires), is

fundamentally devoid of a single (foreign) thing (dharma) it should be the object of this meditation

on the void. Beside this meditation on substance, there is no other method, but due to the false

mind and false thinking caused by defiling causes, the True Mind is hidden and does not appear.

Now if (illusory) mind and seeing are eliminated, all causal conditions cease to exist and the True

Mind will manifest. Cognizance of all causal creations as having no nature of their own are the state

of True Mind. Hence the Buddhas answers, based on the substance of the Samàdhi of the Absolute,

to ânandas questions arising from his false mind and false seeing that discriminated between

causal. conditions. And so He had to break the false mind before teaching the Path of øamatha.

 

 

 

The Buddha said: Practising students, even after they have

realized the nine successive states of dhyàna, still cannot

step out of the stream of transmigration and so fail to become

Arhats, because they cling to this samsaric false thinking which

they mistake for Reality. This is why, though you have heard

much (of my Dharma), you have failed to win the holy fruit.

 

..

 

This shows the second basic inversion (see p. 38), hence the Buddha used the essence of seeing to

reveal the non-existence of the Seventh Consciousness before exposing the Essence of (the Eighth)

Consciousness as the substance of Nirvàõa. For the Seventh is the organ of the Sixth Consciousness.

and is the nature of discrimination, using the latter to perform its function. Both belong to the

Perception of the Eighth Consciousness. The Seventh Consciousness is also called the Clinging

Mind because it (depends on) inner and outer causes; it has no substance when external data cease

to exist; hence causal externals are used to show its non-existence. The Buddha said: If you use

your clinging mind to listen to the Dharma, this Dharma is also causal and pertains to the objective

cause, or samsaric mind. Therefore, you have not realized the substance of (absolute) Dharma

which is beyond words and phrases. When I teach the Dharma it is like pointing a finger at the

moon to show it to others. As the finger is not the moon, you should disregard it to see the moon,

but if you mistake my finger for the moon, you will lose (sight of) both the (bright) moon and the

(dark) finger and will not be clear about the two states of brightness and obscurity. If you mistake

(your intellect) that differentiates when you hear me preach the Dharma for your true mind, the latter

should have substance in the absence of my voice. For example, a guest stops temporarily at an

inn but its host always stays there. If your differentiating mind is really, your true mind, it should

stay permanently; then why has it no substance where there is no voice? Thus not only does this

mind lack substance, but it also cannot be found when you notice my face. This reveals the nonexistence

of the Sixth Consciousness.

As the Sixth depends on the Seventh Consciousness for discerning, now that the formers substance

cannot be found, the latter does not exist. Not only is this differentiating illusion unreal, but

even when differentiation ceases there is neither form nor voidness. The Seventh Consciousness,

as inner cause, is cut off from the five outer sense data, so that it is beyond form, and the innermost

is clung to as an Ego, so that it is beyond voidness. This is the dim substance of the Eighth Consciousness

which is not yet True Mind and which heretics call Primordial Darkness. Even this is not

yet Reality, still less is the discriminating Seventh which is the organ of the Sixth Consciousness.

Therefore, when this Seventh Consciousness is cut off from external causes, it grasps at the inner

Eighth Consciousness as an Ego, hence heretics call the latter the Spiritual Ego and set it up as a

Master in Primordial Darkness. The twenty-five heretical schools regard it as permanent.

This exposes the Seventh and incidentally reveals the Eighth Consciousness which is clung to

as an Ego but is unreal. If that which has no independent nature of its own in the absence of causal

externals is held as the nature of your mind, how can it be a host when each (uprising) can be

(traced back and) returned to a rising cause? This reveals the Host who (is independent and)

cannot be returned to any external cause; this only is True Mind. (This is the origin of the kung an

(Japanese koan): All things return to the One, to where does the One return?)

 

Edited July 4, 2015 by allinone

[3bob]

Well allinone at least you are sticking to Buddhism...good luck

[3bob]

A revealing point is that enlightened masters of a certain lineages, schools or religions do not go about stating in detail what other traditions mean through reams of interesting correlations ranging anywhere from a-z, nope they just go about their own business.

(some common ground may be remarked upon but that is normally and about the maximum said)

[dwai]

You are conflating me with Ramana Maharshi - he uses the term sattva mind merging into the Self and he calls it the unified triad. So yes the three gunas are from samkhya philosophy - the oldest philosophy of India and a Dravidian philosophy from Africa. Tamil, the language Ramana Maharshi spoke, is a tonal language and a Dravidian language.

 

So yes there is conflation there between Dravidian (African-based philosophy) with Vedic philosophy - and I am pointing out that is what causes confusion about nondual philosophy. The older language gets the more musical it is and therefore the musical tonal language is more precise in communicating emotional intelligence.

 

So for example I just had someone email me a pdf on how non-western cultures that have not been controlled by U.S. hollywood ideology - they use language that focuses the emotions on the body parts, based on the meridian energy channels and how this is perceived via the pineal gland.

 

Science does not understand this - science is aware of the nonwestern common terminology of the emotions to other body parts - but not aware of the origin of this terminology. So for example that in many cultures instead of saying "how are you?" the greeting question is "how is your liver?" Because in those cultures to show anger in public is the greatest shame and so the most important thing is that the liver is not clogged up - since that is the source of the anger. Westerners and Westernized cultures are too left-brain dominant to understand this connection.

 

But with a tonal language that type of question is actually built into the frequencies of the words themselves - just as the oldest Indian language is considered to be Sruti from India - tonal chanting. All modern humans originate from the Bushmen culture which is the language that is the most musical and also has the most sounds used - so it's the most sophisticated language. So we can see that Sruti is going back to this African origin of language.

 

So then we consider someone like Chuang Tzu saying that human language has no more meaning or importance to use then the sound of animals which we think is just gibberish. In fact the healing songs that the Bushmen rely on use as for their lyrics - total gibberish words!

 

Now consider music - I know a lot of people who claim to like music but in fact they place more importance on the meaning of the words then the actual emotional content of the frequencies. But it's been proven that non-western cultures never exposed to Western music can accurately identify what is known to be "happy" or "sad" or "scary" music, respectively major, minor or tritone music intervals.

 

Yes the intention of the meaning of the words is crucial since that guides the electromagnetic or yuan qi energy that drives the music - but that does not mean that music without words can have less important intention! Intention is an electromagnetic force - so many people are controlled by their subconscious intentions. There is a great book called the Haunting Melody by Theodore Reik, a psychologist friend of Freud and Brahms in Vienna - so he documented that many people get a melody in their head and at first they can't remember the words. But when they finally remember the words they realize the meaning of the words reveals the true subconscious intention of the experiences they are having. This is very similar to how old people with dementia can be catatonic and not able to speak but when they have their favorite music put to their head then they come to life, can speak, move and their memories come back in vivid. This is because music activates our reptilian vagus nerve - the cerebellum deep brain that controls emotions, body motion and the left side vagus nerve to the heart where our holographic spirit information is stored.

 

Now that is just western music which is actually very limited in meaning.

 

Ramana Marashi discusses how the real meaning of Nada Yoga is that within the sound is light energy and so by listening to the source of the sound then you create light energy.

 

This has actually been verified by science - it's called sonoluminescence but even more so it's called "sonofusion" or LENR - "low energy nuclear reactions" aka cold fusion. I think that actually Western science cold fusion verifies the secret source of listening - or sound - as an alchemical energy training.

 

My book "Alchemy of Rainbow Heart Music" goes into this in more detail - but obviously only meditation can enable this energy to be resonated and activated for a human as a whole. This has been documented that plants and birds use quantum non-local signalling - instantaneous information as quantum entanglement that corroborates the claims of nondualism - it truly is a field of formless awareness.

 

But science, while it can document nondualism as quantum biology, can not reproduce it as off-the-shelf technology because Nature is just too sophisticated for that. This is why the skeptics reject these claims - and try to ignore quantum biology - it was considered crank science until Scientific American did a cover story on quantum biology back around 2006 and M.I.T. just last year had a conference on cold fusion saying indeed it has been corroborated and should be commercialized soon. But again this is not the same as the nondualism embodiment and enactment of this type of nondual energy into a large sentience organism.

 

There can be a lot of freaky stuff with this energy - like Yan Xin saying how his friend was warned he could pick up the illnesses of the people Yan Xin had healed. There are karmic consequences of playing with the Emptiness so to speak - if you have the psychic intention of taking energy from a spiritual master - that energy could have been used to heal someone of a serious illness - and so then the Emptiness (god, etc.) actually will cause a karmic rebound against the egotistical intention. Or like I did - doing tantra you use up the Yuan Qi energy of the heart while taking in other people's yin jing holographic lower emotional lust blockages. This is what is called "Ghost Immortality" in Taoism - it is a type of lower level nondualism.

 

So actually even the term God comes from the Indo-European root word Gott which means Bull just as Brahman also means Bull - and so this is tied to the plow-based farming from wheat monoculture that the Vedic-Brahmin culture brought with it when it spread into India. This is obviously a huge emotional pressure point - but the science - the new DNA analysis has proven this spread of wheat monocultural farming beyond a doubt and confirms just exactly why Vedic religious terms are the complementary opposite of Persian religious terms. For example my name Drew means Druj in Persian or Druh in Sanskit - one means Devil and the other means Angel or God. I forget which is which but you get my point - they are complementary opposites or you might even say dualistic symmetries.

 

The linear view of time in an apocalyptic sense is based out of the Zoroastrian religion and this is tied to what archaeologists call the "symbolic revolution" - which is a philosophy of containing infinity using written language and right-hand technology. In other words as Westernized technology spreads around the world via plow-based farming and monocultural religion it standardizes space into a logarithmic symmetrical ritual mass sacrifice geometry and it also causes an acceleration of linear time - the apocalypse built into the monocultural religion. Western culture is a religion of nondualistic technology - God or Brahman as Bull spreading as logarithmic technology via symmetric-based logic.

 

In other words left-brain dominant meditation is used to turn space and time around - you use logical inference to go to the Emptiness into an UnDead state and from that Undead state you argue for a contained alchemical infinity that is defined by symmetric tautological logic - "I Am that I Am" and that logic is the basis for ritual geometry technology. So for example the "divide and average" math for the Pythagorean theorem actually originates from 3000 BC Brahmin ritual geometry that was also the basis for centering the wheel for chariots. Chariots then used to spread out the Bull cattle plow-based farming - since the intensive monocultural farming causes plagues and so relies on getting to fresh virgin territory to rape.

 

So written language is very different than older tonal African-based languages which retain a tie to the local ecologies, as David Abram's book "Spell of the Senses" points out or as musciologist Victor Grauer's book documents - in his free blogbook, "Sounding the Depths." Or as Leonard Shlain's book "The Goddess and the Alphabet" points out - as written language developed so did this idea of containing infinity geometrically - along with it patriarchy. Another good book on this topic is "When God was a Woman" by Merlin Stone.

 

So then you have the definition of God as a tautological symmetric logic of a contained infinity, "I Am that I am." In actuality the "I Am" originates from the older Dravidian tonal based languages - or the Srutis - so that AM is more like OHM or AMEN. Or to put it into music ratio terms - I is 1 and AM as OHM is 2:3:4 - the Perfect Fourth and Fifth music intervals. All human cultures intuitively use the 1-4-5 music intervals - and so this is the real unifying definition of humanity. Yang is the Perfect Fifth and Yin is the Perfect Fourth and as I document on my blog - the three gunas are also defined by these music intervals.

 

In other words the "I" is mathematically the number one (which is not a number since it is part of an infinite convergence sequence). This is tied to sacred geometry - so that for example in these early empires the music ratios were actually how the gods and goddesses were defined - but then through divide and average math the ratios were attempted to be "contained" geometrically.

 

In reality the language as a tonal language is an infinite listening process and so the infinity can not be contained geometrically - but the idea of nondualism is that once sahaja samadhi is achieved then it is called "eternal liberation" that can not be undone and this infinity is "contained" within the body of the Jnana. It is true this is a permanent achievement beyond the heart - I just spent several days with a qigong master who can achieve this state of samadhi beyond the heart but I don't think he is there all the time. He said the original qigong master is there all the time but for him he only achieves this deep heart Emptiness samadhi once a month.

 

Again only a half dozen people have even achieved sahaja samadhi on Earth but when the Western white male enlightenment scene picked this up then all sorts of New Agers claim they have achieved this realization. haha. The great ease of the Brahmin ideology is you need no "proof" for achieving sahaja samadhi since only God performs the spiritual powers and so if someone is not healed that just means that have the wrong karma to get healed.

 

And again in terms of Mahayana Buddhism - sahaja samadhi is only the emptying out of the 7th level of consciousness - the ego-mind that originates in the heart - but it is not yet emptying out the 8th level of consciousness of the universe which relies first on emptying out the consciousness of the body, the first 5 levels of consciousness.

 

So even if sahaja samadhi is achieved and it is very rare - that is still not the final level for Mahayana Buddhism "supreme complete enlightenment" and that makes perfect sense in terms of complementary opposite harmonics because in reality everything is based on an infinite resonance of energy - and so it's not just the ego-mind that is emptied out but everything can be harmonized back to its Emptiness origin. For the Brahmin priest they rely on the caste hierarchy to take care of their body which they "cast off" to illness or to protect their body while they do the meditation (no eye contact with females allowed).

 

So I would say that all written language is dualistic but consider for example Burmese, it's actually a Buddhist language and so they don't use any personal pronouns in the language - this is to emphasize that everything is just happening impersonally from the formless awareness. Or for example Ojibwe has several different pronouns for we - so that the personal pronouns are more specific, there is we as in you all and we as in us, etc. In English this misuse of "we" is a hierarchical control tactic as in "we" think this, etc. and it actually means "not you" and the person saying it is using it as a power-over materialistic control technique.

 

Still that is just a reform attempt of language around the use of subjective pronouns or not the use of them. But if you look at the history of anti-semitism it spread with the spread of written language - so for example with Platonic philosphy that has an inherent eugenics built into it - then it was not seen that the Jews could actually truly convert to Christianity in Spain - and this Platonic philosophy was picked up from the Moors. Then with the Austrian Empire they spread Germanic written language and with it the Eastern European countries began converting their spoken languages into written languages. This made the Eastern European cultures much more left-brain dominant and therefore cut off from the intuitive understanding of the right brain and the pineal gland transducing and perceiving the intelligence of the lower body organ emotions - being "possessed" by anger from a liver blockage, for example, or sadness being a lung blockage. Just as in ancient Greek - thymus was the soul as linked to the thymus gland. So what happened is as written language spread into Eastern Europe then the Jews were seen as possessing their own rival secret written language. Anti-semitism is precisely defined by this circular logical tautology - the Jews possess their "Jewishness." It's an empty signifier and only then the word "I" then is self-transcending as a signifier.

 

So originally language was tonal based and more musical and this is documented by the use of the lyre instrument to record the mythologies and histories of cultures - the musical trance enables long memorization. This is documented as the Mozart Effect based on the increase in alpha brain waves from the slow baroque middle movements of sonatas and concertos - a pace of 60 beats per minute, which is the heart beat, as the time interval, the second, was first derived from the heart beat - 60 beats per minute. So by resonating the heart through music this causes a visionary theta-alpha brain wave. Alpha brain waves increases the serotonin bliss while theta is the oxytocin deeper heart love bliss - kicked in during the deep dreamless sleep of delta brain waves. And so musical-based language actually very knowingly activated an increase in brain light - a visionary state for photographic memorization that happens during a trance dream state but this ancient skill has been lost and disregarded in our time. Most people when they hear a slow baroque movement will just fall asleep because modern culture is addicted to dopamine left-brain dominant beta waves - stress addiction from ejaculation addiction - and so people really just need more sleep and are not ready for that visionary state of awareness. haha.

 

So Ramana Maharshi says that the problem with Nada chanting is that it induces a dull trance (it's good to initiate samadhi but causes an egotistical self-satisfaction) and so the yogi then gets caught up in these visionary astral energy realms and the nirvikalpa samadhi of one-pointed concentration on the Emptiness is lost. And so the real origin of the ego in the heart is not achieved in many cases. But this problem can be applied on all levels of consciousness - as the Ch'an Buddhists point out - and so for example Master Nan, Huai-chin says that there is a great need for more critical analysis of the 6th level of consciousness - just the conceptual level of consciousness needs to be emptied out more.

 

Anthropologists and musicologists have proven that the original human culture sings the same trance dance spiritual music from before human language was even developed, 70,000 years ago! So all these "ancient" spiritual traditions of the East are really rather recent in terms of all us biological humans that originate from the Bushmen culture. Genetically the Bushmen are the most diverse human culture on Earth - we all are part of the Bushmen culture. So that is our biological history - and the culture of trance dance spiritual training is from before human language developed.

 

So when we sing we do become right brain dominant and also when we listen to music but Western tuned music inherently traps the sound into a materialistic geometry. The right brain can not "write" words. This is why the Western scale in Indian music is known as the materialist focus of the music. Western trained musicians are more left-brain dominant and just limited to those superficial emotions that I mentioned above.

 

The Westerner thinks that trance chanting music is childish because as was pointed out we are misled to think that if you repeat something over and over and expect a different result this is stupid. On the contrary if someone understands nondualistic nonlinear resonance then the repetition resonates through complementary opposites and so creates constant eternal change of energy - light from sound - and nothing is ever the same - or as Yogananda called it a "Everfresh newness." This is only achieved through this internal listening process that Ramana Maharshi called "Mouna Samadhi" (silence or sigh-lense samadhi) which is really the highest level of nondual samadhi. That is the secret of the unified triad that he refers to - it is more like the intention of the music harmonics.

Well it's a long post so haven't read it in totality yet. However I will point out some fallacious points wrt Vedic vs Dravidian (there is no such distinction - it was manufactured by the Europeans for colonization purposes).

 

We could talk about Vedic vs other vernacular systems but I find it's hard to separate them.

 

Your hypothesis about brahminical conspiracy is fallacious as well. I could go into why but suffice to say I wanted to call it out so I did

[voidisyinyang]

Well it's a long post so haven't read it in totality yet. However I will point out some fallacious points wrt Vedic vs Dravidian (there is no such distinction - it was manufactured by the Europeans for colonization purposes).

 

We could talk about Vedic vs other vernacular systems but I find it's hard to separate them.

 

Your hypothesis about brahminical conspiracy is fallacious as well. I could go into why but suffice to say I wanted to call it out so I did

 

As I said Broham:

 

This is obviously a huge emotional pressure point - but the science - the new DNA analysis has proven this spread of wheat monocultural farming beyond a doubt and confirms just exactly why Vedic religious terms are the complementary opposite of Persian religious terms.

 

That's what I wrote because obviously you're going to kick back the self-righteous answer you did.

 

Notice I said, "new DNA analysis." I'm fully aware of the Eurocentric colonial arguments - I've done the whole cultural studies trip.

 

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/08/major-admixture-in-india-took-place-42.html

 

The facts are quite clear now.

 

I realize it's been a long debate but the new DNA analysis has finally settled the matter.

 

 

In previous work it was determined that Indians trace their ancestry to two major groups, Ancestral North Indians (ANI) (= West Eurasians of some kind), and Ancestral South Indians (ASI) (= distant relatives of Andaman Islanders, existing today only in admixed form). The new paper demonstrates that admixture between these two groups took place ~4.2-1.9 thousand years ago.

 

o.k. so I guess you think the new DNA analysis is wrong. haha.

 

If you want to think that go ahead.

 

and this:

 

 

My own analysis of Dodecad Project South Indian Brahmins arrived at a date of 4.1ky, and of North Indian Brahmins, a date of 2.3ky, which seems to be in good agreement with these results.

 

and

 

 

. One, the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ (ANI), is genetically close to Middle Easterners, Central Asians, and Europeans, whereas the other, the ‘Ancestral South Indians’ (ASI), is as distinct from ANI and East Asians as they are from each other.

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/abs/nature08365.html

 

Am J Hum Genet. 2013 Sep 5; 93(3): 422–438.

doi:  10.1016/j.ajhg.2013.07.006

PMCID: PMC3769933

Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India

 

 

 

Genetic evidence indicates that most of the ethno-linguistic groups in India descend from a mixture of two divergent ancestral populations: Ancestral North Indians (ANI) related to West Eurasians (people of Central Asia, the Middle East, the Caucasus, and Europe) and Ancestral South Indians (ASI) related (distantly) to indigenous Andaman Islanders.¹ The evidence for mixture was initially documented based on analysis of Y chromosomes² and mitochondrial DNA^3–5 and then confirmed and extended through whole-genome studies.^6–8

Archaeological and linguistic studies provide support for the genetic findings of a mixture of at least two very distinct populations in the history of the Indian subcontinent. The earliest archaeological evidence for agriculture in the region dates to 8,000–9,000 years before present (BP) (Mehrgarh in present-day Pakistan) and involved wheat and barley derived from crops originally domesticated in West Asia.^9,10

 

This isn't some racist freaky white science that is self-published - it's mainstream DNA science in the hard science journals.

 

White skin is from wheat farming causing vitamin D malnutrition. That is also new DNA analysis from the past few years.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2535288/Light-skin-colour-Europeans-stems-ONE-ancestor-lived-India-Middle-East-10-000-years-ago.html

 

 

 

the colour is due to an ancient ancestor who lived somewhere between the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent....

The a mutation, called A111T, is found in virtually every one of European ancestry.

A111T is also found in populations in the Middle East and Indian subcontinent,

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2535288/Light-skin-colour-Europeans-stems-ONE-ancestor-lived-India-Middle-East-10-000-years-ago.html#ixzz3eyW7kUDl

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[3bob]

help, a page is aflame

Edited July 5, 2015 by 3bob

[voidisyinyang]

nondualism is actually from the original human culture as the focus of that culture was and is spiritual training.

 

The real "flame" was Mount Toba - the super massive volcanic eruption 70,000 years ago that put modern humans into a genetic bottle neck of only about 5,000 human survivors in east Africa - from those 5000 people all of modern humanity arose.

 

So the thing is that original culture - what did they rely on to survive those apocalyptic times?

 

the humans in India at that time were wiped out - as the archaeology demonstrates - the ash has been discovered - it buried and wiped out life in India.

 

The Bushmen culture of Africa is what survived - and the Bushmen culture is genetically the source for all of modern humanity - the focus of the Bushmen culture is the nonduality training.

 

So if you are referring to a "flame" - what I already posted is nothing compared to the flame of the Mt. Toba supervolcano.

 

You're complaining of me comparing different spiritual traditions.

 

The ancient human culture had to rely on serious cooperation developed from nondualistic spiritual training.

 

That culture got lost as monocultural wheat farming developed - because the wheat farming created the illusion of abundance and the illusion that males plowing the land could control nature - that's what the "symbolic revolution" refers to.

 

So then with the left brain dominance that arose - so did this arrogance with warfare, etc.

 

The original human culture has never declared war.

 

https://t.co/xk3YvV20vT

 

So there you have the DNA evidence and other evidence regarding the "flame" of Mt. Toba super volcano.

 

 

Here you have the original human culture practicing nondualism.

 

Genetically a single troupe of chimpanzees in Africa is more diverse than all modern humans are compared to each other - modern humans are truly biologically very similar.

 

But monocultural wheat farming and monotheism is a very recent development with this falsehood of containing infinity through geometric measurement.

 

The DNA science confirms what I have stated - that monocultural wheat farming spread into India and with it the left-brain dominant phonetic language developed. It was a transition culture from the older Dravidian-African trance music nondualism training.

[dwai]

As I said Broham:

 

 

That's what I wrote because obviously you're going to kick back the self-righteous answer you did.

 

Notice I said, "new DNA analysis." I'm fully aware of the Eurocentric colonial arguments - I've done the whole cultural studies trip.

 

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/08/major-admixture-in-india-took-place-42.html

 

The facts are quite clear now.

 

I realize it's been a long debate but the new DNA analysis has finally settled the matter.

 

 

 

o.k. so I guess you think the new DNA analysis is wrong. haha.

 

If you want to think that go ahead.

 

and this:

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/abs/nature08365.html

 

 

 

 

 

Am J Hum Genet. 2013 Sep 5; 93(3): 422–438.

doi: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2013.07.006

 

 

PMCID: PMC3769933 Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India

 

 

 

This isn't some racist freaky white science that is self-published - it's mainstream DNA science in the hard science journals.

 

White skin is from wheat farming causing vitamin D malnutrition. That is also new DNA analysis from the past few years.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2535288/Light-skin-colour-Europeans-stems-ONE-ancestor-lived-India-Middle-East-10-000-years-ago.html

There are y-chromosome tracings and mtDNA tracings. They show an interesting picture. Jury is still out on which one is more likely. Evidence from within India show that after the first migration out of Africa there were more migrations out of India (from the south to up north and further westward).

It will be hard for a westerner to grok but the culture of India really an undifferentiated one and has been for a long time (there are lot of politically motivated polemics and theories posited around the European colonial lines - even in post-colonial academic circles)... And spirituality in India is very tightly woven with culture.

 

I know you have your thesis that needs defending, and I'd rather not expend my energy on non-spiritual pursuits. However later, if I do feel upto it, I'll post a detailed rejoinder/critique of your locus standi.

[voidisyinyang]

There are y-chromosome tracings and mtDNA tracings. They show an interesting picture. Jury is still out on which one is more likely. Evidence from within India show that after the first migration out of Africa there were more migrations out of India (from the south to up north and further westward).

It will be hard for a westerner to grok but the culture of India really an undifferentiated one and has been for a long time (there are lot of politically motivated polemics and theories posited around the European colonial lines - even in post-colonial academic circles)... And spirituality in India is very tightly woven with culture.

 

I know you have your thesis that needs defending, and I'd rather not expend my energy on non-spiritual pursuits. However later, if I do feel upto it, I'll post a detailed rejoinder/critique of your locus standi.

 

Funny how I didn't say anything about your ethnicity.

 

The scientist who did the white skin origin found in India - spread by wheat farming - was Chinese - not a Westerner.

 

Nice try to dismiss the evidence based on my own ethnicity.

 

That's why I posted the wheat farming DNA evidence also.

 

I'm sure Dravidians traveled north - that's fine and not the point.

 

The point is a distinct wheat farming culture spread into India from West Asia - that is undisputed. That is also why the Vedic Brahmin culture is similar to the Zoroastrian culture - it is from that same wheat farming religious tradition.

 

So you have several convergences of DNA data there.

 

What you are discussing is whether the Brahmins relied on female exogamy - in contrast to the Dravidians which are matrilineal in S. India. That explains the differences in the DNA data but that does not, in no way, change the basic accuracy of the source of the Brahmins.

 

O.K. you say because I'm a Westerner I could not understand.

 

Again nice try to lower the standards of the discussion to my ethnicity.

 

Keith Cheng

 

 

This is science - it's not based on the ethnicity of the person doing the research - again the person who showcased the "white skin" wheat farming connection is Chinese ethnicity.

 

So you can't dismiss it based on me having white western ethnicity.

 

 

 

They discovered that all individuals from the Middle East, North Africa, East Africa and South India who carry the A111T mutation share traces of the ancestral genetic code.

According to the researchers, this indicates that all existing instances of this mutation originate from the same person.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2535288/Light-skin-colour-Europeans-stems-ONE-ancestor-lived-India-Middle-East-10-000-years-ago.html#ixzz3ezLtPUOK

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

The white skin of people from South Asia originates from a single person who lived in Western Asia.

 

 

 

Professor Cheng now plans to look at more genetic samples to better understand what genes play the most important role in East Asian skin colour.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2535288/Light-skin-colour-Europeans-stems-ONE-ancestor-lived-India-Middle-East-10-000-years-ago.html#ixzz3ezMMbgWG

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

O.K. so he's not on some white power trip as a Westerner - he's a real scientist doing basic research - it has nothing to do with him having a certain cultural background.

 

 

A quick glance at the distribution maps of the A111T allele [white skin] from both studies immediately shows the very strong association with the spread Indo-European languages and paternal lineages (R1a and R1b).

 

 

Again female exogamy practiced by the patriarchal wheat farmers spreading into India.

 

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-29435.html

 

 

Considering the very dark skin of R2 populations in Southeast India and Southeast Asia, it [white skin]surely wasn't present among the original R2* lineages either.

 

 

[dwai]

 

Funny how I didn't say anything about your ethnicity.

 

The scientist who did the white skin origin found in India - spread by wheat farming - was Chinese - not a Westerner.

 

Nice try to dismiss the evidence based on my own ethnicity.

 

That's why I posted the wheat farming DNA evidence also.

 

I'm sure Dravidians traveled north - that's fine and not the point.

 

The point is a distinct wheat farming culture spread into India from West Asia - that is undisputed. That is also why the Vedic Brahmin culture is similar to the Zoroastrian culture - it is from that same wheat farming religious tradition.

 

So you have several convergences of DNA data there.

 

What you are discussing is whether the Brahmins relied on female exogamy - in contrast to the Dravidians which are matrilineal in S. India. That explains the differences in the DNA data but that does not, in no way, change the basic accuracy of the source of the Brahmins.

 

O.K. you say because I'm a Westerner I could not understand.

 

Again nice try to lower the standards of the discussion to my ethnicity.

 

Keith Cheng

 

 

This is science - it's not based on the ethnicity of the person doing the research - again the person who showcased the "white skin" wheat farming connection is Chinese ethnicity.

 

So you can't dismiss it based on me having white western ethnicity.

 

 

 

The white skin of people from South Asia originates from a single person who lived in Western Asia.

 

 

 

O.K. so he's not on some white power trip as a Westerner - he's a real scientist doing basic research - it has nothing to do with him having a certain cultural background.

 

 

 

 

 

Again female exogamy practiced by the patriarchal wheat farmers spreading into India.

 

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-29435.html

 

 

 

 

I only raised your ethnicity because non-Indians don't usually have an idea how powerful and closely integrated with things culture is (it is called sanskriti). It is you who is making assumptions about my motivations for calling out what I consider fallacies in your statements

 

As far as matriarchal vs patriarchal families are concerned. Yes in Kerala certain families follow a matriarchal system. But the concept of "Dravidian" is a relatively new phenomenon (about 200 years at most). You'd do well to read up on the political rhetoric of the same.

 

As much as I could enlighten you from an emic perspective, I really don't want to. I much rather meditate and practice tai chi. So let us not ruin what has been a perfectly sound discussion on non-dualism with wild theories.

Edited July 5, 2015 by dwai

[3bob]

innersoundqigong,

I think comparing different spiritual traditions is of interest and value but I don't think to the point of thumping people over the head with it...or in trying to put everything into definite boxes;  also the physical and genetic evidences or aspects related to same are only a part of the tip of the iceberg, meaning one could follow DNA traces and reach a certain point or one could also follow Om with Om going all the way through myriad galaxies and reaching the point to where such arise and also into the secret hidden in hearts yet in plain sight, for there is Sat which will never fit into any boxes yet is the definite answer.
 

Edited July 5, 2015 by 3bob

[voidisyinyang]

I only raised your ethnicity because non-Indians don't usually have an idea how powerful and closely integrated with things culture is (it is called sanskriti). It is you who is making assumptions about my motivations for calling out what I consider fallacies in your statements

 

As far as matriarchal vs patriarchal families are concerned. Yes in Kerala certain families follow a matriarchal system. But the concept of "Dravidian" is a relatively new phenomenon (about 200 years at most). You'd do well to read up on the political rhetoric of the same.

 

As much as I could enlighten you from an emic perspective, I really don't want to. I much rather meditate and practice tai chi. So let us not ruin what has been a perfectly sound discussion on non-dualism with wild theories.

 

the journal Nature DNA science is not a "wild theory" - it's solid fact.

 

You speaking "objectively" about the culture of Indians - I'm happy for you there. haha.

 

Hilarious!

 

It's amazing what length people will go to so as to remain in denial about their cultural worldviews.

 

The DNA science speaks for itself.

 

How long it takes Indian culture to catch up to it - who knows?

 

For example Varanasi is considered a holy city yet the Ganges there has more shit in it and toxic waste probably more than anywhere else.

 

 

India is seriously messed up - culturally, environmentally - and yes it's a legacy of white colonialism that the DNA science shows goes back to the Brahmins. haha. Deal with it Broham.

 

 

Pollution in Ganges/ Ganga. The sacred river of Hinduism. People drink and bathe in this river. The water is believed to "HOLY."

India claims to be a great country, but all the factories dump their waste in this river and the Government is doing nothing about it. Thousnads of people die everyday because of the pollution. Dead bodies are thrown into the river. The Marine life has completey vanished. THIS IS THE REAL INDIA.

 

 

 

 

The Ganges is worshipped as a goddess, and many Hindus believe that the Ganges cannot be polluted, yet it is one of the most dangerously contaminated rivers in the world. The Brothers meet the people who live with the extraordinary paradox of the Pure and the Poisoned -- and they take their own holy dip in the Ganges with over 30 million people at the legendary Maha Kumbh Mela, the largest gathering of humans on earth.

 

nice nondualism philosophy in action.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[voidisyinyang]

innersoundqigong,

I think comparing different spiritual traditions is of interest and value but I don't think to the point of thumping people over the head with it...or in trying to put everything into definite boxes;  also the physical and genetic evidences or aspects related to same are only a part of the tip of the iceberg, meaning one could follow DNA traces and reach a certain point or one could also follow Om with Om going all the way through myriad galaxies and reaching the point to where such arise and also into the secret of hearts in plain sight, for there is Sat which will never fit into any boxes yet is the definite answer.

 

 

 

 

“Ezhavas have European paternal lineage, which is not surprising considering that Aryanisation has led to genetic mixing between Aryans and Indian populations in the north as well as the south,” says Nair. “Through Y STR we cannot determine whether Ezhavas originated from European populations or Europeans originated from Kerala/Indian populations. Historical data suggest gene flow from Europe to India not vice versa.”

 

 

http://in.rbth.com/articles/2012/06/06/europeans_and_indians_divided_or_united_by_dna_15923.html

 

This is an article written from a Kerala Dravidian perspective.

 

And another dna study - showing caste differences tied to DNA of Europe.

 

 

genetic distance estimates to the Europeans are ordered by caste rank.

 

 

The matrilineal DNA evidence shows the older connection to East Asian and African populations. So that above Dravidian person argues that thus there is an Indian unity - yes on the one hand -  but the DNA evidence clearly shows another story.

 

The patrilineal evidence shows the European invasion DNA.

 

 

For 32 lineage-defining mitochondrial SNPs and hypervariable sequence (HVS) 1, Tamil castes have higher affinity to eastern Asians than to Europeans. For 45 autosomal STRs, upper and middle rank castes show higher affinity to Europeans than do lower rank castes from either Tamil Nadu or Andhra Pradesh.

 

 

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/9/86

 

 

 

Conclusion

Genetic data from Y-chromosome, mtDNA, and autosomal STRs are in accord with historical accounts of northwest to southeast population movements in India. The influence of ancient and historical population movements and caste social structure can be detected and replicated in South Indian caste populations from two different geographic regions.

 

 

So yeah the nondualism Brahmin philosophy is directly tied to the oppressive caste system and also to the wheat farming.

 

This is a colonial system that spread into Europe.

 

the archaeological evidence is detailed in my book.

 

There was an ecological catastrophe from monocultural wheat farming - as early as 9,000 BCE

 

People then turned to pastoralism as a means of survival.

 

What happened is the early farmers water-proofed their houses using lime-ash from deforestation and burning the trees - to make cement.

 

The same lime cement used to cover the pyramids in Egypt.

 

So after that early wheat monocultural ecological nightmare people actually migrated or fled to greece - this is the first spread of white people into Europe - around 8,000 years ago.

 

The same spread of white people into India happened around the same time - people were fleeing the ecological devastation of wheat monocultural farming and bringing that devastation with them.

 

This is called "ecological imperialism" - it spread around the world as Westernization - as white monocultural farming with it monism as religion - nondualism - based on this early 9,000 BCE "symbolic revolution" that Nature could be contained in an infinite geometry - a divide and average convergence, with the early version of the Pythagorean Theorem in Brahmin ritual sacrifice altars around 3,000 BCE in India.

 

So yeah it's not just some goodytwoshoes New Age philosophy - it's a left-brain dominant logic of a "contained" infinity - it goes against the early AFrican-based shamanic hunter-gatherer cultures using trance dance music training.

 

Sure there was some admixture to different levels and so in South India you have a stronger matrilineal culture of African origin still established - and Ramana Maharshi was an interesting bridge between the two - speaking the tonal Tamil language but embracing the Brahmin Vedic philosophy.

 

http://the-wanderling.com/hempel.html

 

I actually corresponded with a dude who was a direct student of Ramana Maharshi and he had a strong nondualism enlightenment experience as a boy in front of Ramana Maharshi.

 

 

But I pointed out to the Wanderling that Ramana Maharshi did rely on the Brahmin caste system culture.

 

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=5461.0

 

Here is Ramana discussing caste - he says the lower castes, the untouchables, suffer from an "inferiority complex."

 

That's some messed up thinking called "blaming the victim."

 

Now consider this.

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.conspiracyschool.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fjournal_articles%2FUrban_Elitism_and_Esotericism_0.pdf&ei=20SZVeLBDonvtQXZrYrYAQ&usg=AFQjCNFASdLhc8VXrSGdj7Sv5oVmYG3lGg&sig2=C_jAGvAROgf7an_2veiF8g&bvm=bv.96952980,d.b2w

 

pdf link

 

 

 

In fact, as Douglas Brooks has suggested

in his study of the Srividya tradition, many South Indian Brahmins

became especially interested in the rituals of Tantra precisely at a

time when Brahminical power was being threatened by the rise of

bhakti and Sanikara Vedanta. For Tantra opened up a secret realm in

which Brahmins could retain their traditional power and privilege, yet

without losing their orthodox authority in the exoteric social sphere.

 

Hence it not only "reinforces the Vedic hierarchy of privilege" but

also "reorders it to suit the changing situation of classical Hinduism;"

Tantric ritual and ideology continues to provide a means by which brahman

society perpetuates the perception of itself as privileged in the midst of radical

social and economic changes that do not always privilege brahmans

 

 

ELITISM AND ESOTERICISM: STRATEGIES OF SECRECY

AND POWER IN SOUTH INDIAN TANTRA AND FRENCH

FREEMASONRY

HUGH B. URBAN

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=CAiiph3uoOAC&pg=PA257&lpg=PA257&dq=vivekananda+hugh+b.+urban+elitism&source=bl&ots=DMQRocy2Jk&sig=KbnwO8ekljAYHuHzHApZVDYZYuk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1kWZVcGOHoGFsAW5zrGwAw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=vivekananda%20hugh%20b.%20urban%20elitism&f=false

 

He expanded that into a whole book - google review link.

 

The Economics of Ecstasy.

 

So OHM bliss comes with a cost. haha.

 

For the hard working class - it's too easy to get caught up in the stress of daily life.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=iucwBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=hugh+b.+urban+nondualism&source=bl&ots=MO6DJadjtF&sig=TGbFl2ZkIY1RgCS14jkCGwd46hc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R0aZVcXOBIH8tQWA1o7oCQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=hugh%20b.%20urban%20nondualism&f=false

 

Hugh B. Urban argues nondualism as South Indian tantra as the ultimate consumer commodity fetish.

 

Selling Yoga: From Counterculture to Pop Culture

 

Andrea Jain

Oxford University Press, Nov 5, 2014

Edited July 5, 2015 by Innersoundqigong