Are we here for a purpose?

[MooNiNite]

Are we here for a purpose, or are we the result of evolution?

 

Like a lucky dog that died and became a human?

 

Are we just passing through?

[Bearded Dragon]

Purpose is a matter of thought. You could say there is purpose or you could say that there is no purpose. If you take away mental constructs then there can't be any purpose. It's really a localised purpose based on your own mental structure.

[MooNiNite]

Purpose is a matter of thought. You could say there is purpose or you could say that there is no purpose. If you take away mental constructs then there can't be any purpose. It's really a localised purpose based on your own mental structure.

 

True, so you don't believe in a path?

 

Some people talk about a path, and when they fall off their path bad things start happening. 

[Nungali]

yes we are all here for a purpose and evolution and are the result of evolution ... revolution ... circulation ... evolution.

 

No you should not be going around in a circle ... you cant, eventually entropy will catch you and you will go down the gurgler ...

 

or you could surf upwards  *

 

 

I am more like a lucky goat.

 

yes, we are passing through ... but not just  passing through. 

 

 * here is  Owen (getting it ) Wright  in his 2nd  full points ride in Fiji yesterday ...... now that's skimmin' up the tube and poppin' out the'  top' !     

 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK3jzR4xQMU

[Bearded Dragon]

Depends which side of the coin you look on. I could SAY that I'm on my path because nothing ever goes wrong. Then when bad things start to happen I could SAY that I've fallen off my path. The fact of the matter is that things will happen as they do. That is your path.

 

Part of the reason I feel like I'm flowing freely through life is because I'm not bothered by what happens. One good thing or the other... meh. One bad thing or another.... meh. That's my mental structure or lackthereof. The thing is though, once you free up your mind you're less likely to get stuck in a hole. Bad things are fleeting rather than binding, and as such you don't hold on to it and lock yourself into the situation. It's more of a biproduct because if your mind is free it doesn't matter too much, and even though you don't like bad things you can still bare them comfortably.

 

You could look at it another way and consider positive outcomes of negative situations such as learning lessons or perspective. If you do this enough then eventually it's obvious and you don't have to think about it. Then you can just accept anything that happens as your path. Changing your path is not really changing at all, but just continuing on.

[seekingbuddha]

Are we here for a purpose, or are we the result of evolution?

 

Like a lucky dog that died and became a human?

 

Are we just passing through?

 

It  seems like  there is a state-of-mind,  where  all  of your 4 questions can  be answered  with  a  YES or NO  or MAYBE.   The purpose of  spirituality is to show  us how to live,  while  we are here on earth.  

 

Say, we take  one step at a time on the path that has been shown to us by the wisest of the wise to ever live on earth.   Then, there will come a step, where  these kinds of  questions and answers  will cease to be important.  For  now,  taking  the one small step (however small)  needed for TODAY,  is  what  is  important  and relevant.   Troubles (sufferings) arise  because  we do not realize  the  importance  of  this  one small  single step  that needs to be taken TODAY (ie..  in present moment).

[Silent Answers]

^ nailed it

[9th]

Are we here for a purpose, or are we the result of evolution?

 

Like a lucky dog that died and became a human?

 

Are we just passing through?

 

Lets ask the G-man...

 

"Humanity neither progresses nor evolves. What seems to us to be progress or evolution is a partial modification which can be immediately counterbalanced by a corresponding modification in an opposite direction.

 

"Humanity, like the rest of organic life, exists on earth for the needs and purposes of the earth. And it is exactly as it should be for the earth's requirements at the present time.

 

"Only thought as theoretical and as far removed from fact as modem European thought could have conceived the evolution of man to be possible apart from surrounding nature, or have regarded the evolution of man as a gradual conquest of nature. This is quite impossible. In living, in dying, in evolving, in degenerating, man equally serves the purposes of nature - or, rather, nature makes equal use, though perhaps for different purposes, of the products of both evolution and degeneration. And, at the same time, humanity as a whole can never escape from nature, for, even in struggling against nature man acts in conformity with her purposes. The evolution of large masses of humanity is opposed to nature's purposes. The evolution of a certain small percentage may be in accord with nature's purposes. Man contains within him the possibility of evolution. But the evolution of humanity as a whole, that is, the development of these possibilities in all men, or in most of them, or even in a large number of them, is not necessary for the purposes of the earth or of the planetary world in general, and it might, in fact, be injurious or fatal. There exist, therefore, special forces (of a planetary character) which oppose the evolution of large masses of humanity and keep it at the level it ought to be.

 

"But, at the same time, possibilities of evolution exist, and they may be developed in separate individuals with the help of appropriate knowledge and methods. Such development can take place only in the interests of the man himself against, so to speak, the interests and forces of the planetary world. The man must understand this: his evolution is necessary only to himself. No one else is interested in it. And no one is obliged or intends to help him. On the contrary, the forces which oppose the evolution of large masses of humanity also oppose the evolution of individual men. A man must outwit them. And one man can outwit them, humanity cannot. You will understand later on that all these obstacles are very useful to a man; if they did not exist they would have to be created intentionally, because it is by overcoming obstacles that man develops those qualities he needs.

 

"This is the basis of the correct view of human evolution. There is no compulsory, mechanical evolution. Evolution is the result of conscious struggle. Nature does not need this evolution; it does not want it and struggles against it. Evolution can be necessary only to man himself when he realizes his position, realizes the possibility of changing this position, realizes that he has powers that he does not use, riches that he does not see. And, in the sense of gaining possession of these powers and riches, evolution is possible.

[3bob]

...and of course Mr. G was wrong about tons of stuff even if he found an acorn here and there as a blind groundhog is bound to do. Btw, were not parts of or most of the quotes above really from what Mr. O. cleaned up and wrote down in a intelligible scribe like manner of readable text?   (also for for those who don't know it Mr O. and Mr. G. had a big split-up for serious reasons, thus I suggest that no one bite hook, line and sinker along certain lines of related texts)

Edited June 17, 2015 by 3bob

[Jetsun]

One way of looking at man in the context of nature is that in nature seeds are sown in manure and flower at the right time under the right conditions, so maybe man flowers in the same way, our ego struggles represent us working through the manure and awakening the flowering. The mass awakenings happening now in our age is a crop coming to harvest and maturity. Who sewed the seeds is another question, maybe Jesus. Its a nice story anyway.

[9th]

...and of course Mr. G was wrong about tons of stuff even if he found an acorn here and there as a blind groundhog is bound to do. Btw, were not parts of or most of the quotes above really from what Mr. O. cleaned up and wrote down in a intelligible scribe like manner of readable text?   (also for for those who don't know it Mr O. and Mr. G. had a big split-up for serious reasons, thus I suggest that no one bite hook, line and sinker along certain lines of related texts)

 

Well he certainly wasnt perfect, but there is plenty of good information to be found - like all teachers, all texts

 

Ouspensky did transcribe the lectures, but it was basically word for word.  The full story about what happened to Mr. O is readily available, if you are interested (in truth instead of fiction, of course.. so... I wont hold my breath).  He split because he could not accept the emotional side of the work, and wanted to focus exclusively on the intellectual side.  It did not end well for him.  After many years, he publicly admitted he himself did not understand the system he stole from Mr. G, stopped teaching it, resumed his alcoholism and died in a deep depression... 

 

The reason I quoted the above is because I would tend to agree with the overall perspective.  Mankind is part of the earth and its ecosystem, just as the earth is part of the solar system, which is part of the galaxy and so on.  Of course mankind serves a purpose as part of the great universal organism.  However there is also another possibility, which is specifically the ability to evolve consciously, outside the general species itself.  This is what makes the human species what it is, which is a bridge between the worlds.  The same functions and abilities that happen unconsciously in everyone as a collective can be made conscious in an individual, they can be actively integrated into life rather than passively forced from it - and therein lies the possibilities.

[3bob]

oh yea I've studied  tons of stuff given through first hand accounts or witness of Mr. G. being or going nuts.. after which I moved on  yet still being thankful for some of the acorns (or fragments) that were shared.  (law of 3, law of 7, the profound enneagram, the cosmology correlations, the struggles, the hopes, etc. etc.)

[thelerner]

I think we have to make our own purpose.

and it can change and evolve as we get older.

[FraterUFA]

What a good quote by Gurdjieff. 

 

"Humanity, like the rest of organic life, exists on earth for the needs and purposes of the earth. And it is exactly as it should be for the earth's requirements at the present time.

 

He speaks here, of course, of the masses of humanity. Who not knowing their purpose, yet serve those of many different masters.

 

 

There exist, therefore, special forces (of a planetary character) which oppose the evolution of large masses of humanity and keep it at the level it ought to be.

 

A notion that is ignored by most, derided or feared by almost all the rest.

 

 

 

"But, at the same time, possibilities of evolution exist, and they may be developed in separate individuals with the help of appropriate knowledge and methods. Such development can take place only in the interests of the man himself against, so to speak, the interests and forces of the planetary world. 

 

He speaks obliquely here. Illumination is ultimately in the general best interest of the planet. Yet it is at the same time inimical to the systems which surround the adept, who extricates himself from their rulership.

 

If you have seen the scene in the Matrix where Neo's boss gives him a speech about being late, it is kind of like that. Bossman doesn't care about you, just what you can do for him.

 

 

The man must understand this: his evolution is necessary only to himself. No one else is interested in it. And no one is obliged or intends to help him. 

 

Again, he speaks in a cunning manner. No one can evolve themselves. And no one is out there who will save the would-be spiritual seeker from the world. But the seeker saves himself by conjuring up a teacher.

 

 

 

On the contrary, the forces which oppose the evolution of large masses of humanity also oppose the evolution of individual men. A man must outwit them. And one man can outwit them, humanity cannot. You will understand later on that all these obstacles are very useful to a man; if they did not exist they would have to be created intentionally, because it is by overcoming obstacles that man develops those qualities he needs.

 

Here G has given away a great hint about the first illumination.

 

 

"This is the basis of the correct view of human evolution. There is no compulsory, mechanical evolution. Evolution is the result of conscious struggle. Nature does not need this evolution; it does not want it and struggles against it. Evolution can be necessary only to man himself when he realizes his position, realizes the possibility of changing this position, realizes that he has powers that he does not use, riches that he does not see. And, in the sense of gaining possession of these powers and riches, evolution is possible.

 

The vast swarm of humanity neither knows nor cares about evolution. Of those who do, most casually stroll up to the temple and demand that the great gift be given them, knowing not what it is nor even if they are capable of attaining it. Of the small percentage who persist, most turn away once they find out what it is.

 

UFA

[3bob]

how "cunning" and also sickly cultish as many of these 4th way schools are although not all -  "buyer beware".

Edited June 17, 2015 by 3bob

[FraterUFA]

I couldn't tell you anything about the Fourth Way. In my opinion, all such schools are simply temporary stops which one must eventually grow out of long before they become a candidate for authentic initiation.

 

It's a very good quote though.

[9th]

"The Fourth Way" of Ouspensky was an exercise in marketing.  The way that was taught by Gurdjieff no longer exists, even (and indeed, especially) within the Gurdjieff Foundation, and its extensions.  However, the Great Work will always continue.  

 

 

"Besides these three ways yet a fourth way exists by which can go those who cannot go by any of the first three ways.

 

"Two or three thousand years ago there were yet other ways which no longer exist and the ways now in existence were not so divided, they stood much closer to one another.

 

"The fourth way differs from the old and the new ways by the fact that it is never a permanent way. It has no definite forms and there are no institutions connected with it. It appears and disappears governed by some particular laws of its own.

 

"The fourth way is never without some work of a definite significance, is never without some undertaking around which and in connection with which it can alone exist. When this work is finished, that is to say, when the aim set before it has been accomplished, the fourth way disappears, that is, it disappears from the given place, disappears in its given form, continuing perhaps in another place in another form. Schools of the fourth way exist for the needs of the work which is being carried out in connection with the proposed undertaking. They never exist by themselves as schools for the purpose of education and instruction.

 

"The work itself of schools of the fourth way can have very many forms and many meanings. In the midst of the ordinary conditions of life the only chance a man has of finding a 'way' is in the possibility of meeting with the beginning of work of this kind. But the chance of meeting with such work as well as the possibility of profiting by this chance depends upon many circumstances and conditions.

 

"The quicker a man grasps the aim of the work which is being executed, the quicker can he become useful to it and the more will he be able to get from it for himself.

 

"But no matter what the fundamental aim of the work is, the schools continue to exist only while this work is going on. When the work is done the schools close. The people who began the work leave the stage. Those who have learned from them what was possible to learn and have reached the possibility of continuing on the way independently begin in one form or another their own personal work.

 

It is exactly in connection with this law that there occurs one of the fundamental rules of the fourth way. On the fourth way there is not one teacher. Whoever is the elder, he is the teacher. And as the teacher is indispensable to the pupil, so also is the pupil indispensable to the teacher. The pupil cannot go on without the teacher, and the teacher cannot go on without the pupil or pupils. And this is not a general consideration but an indispensable and quite concrete rule on which is based the law of a man's ascending. As has been said before, no one can ascend onto a higher step until he places another man in his own place. What a man has received he must immediately give back; only then can he receive more. Otherwise from him will be taken even what he has already been given.

 

 

And here, G almost seems to prophesy about what is to come some 10 years later, regarding his groups and his star pupil:

 

 

"It often happens that, having stopped before some barrier, usually the smallest and the most simple, people turn against the work, against the teacher, and against other members of the group, and accuse them of the very thing that is becoming revealed to them in themselves.

 

"Sometimes they repent later and blame themselves, then they again blame others, then they repent once more, and so on. But there is nothing that shows up a man better than his attitude towards the work and the teacher after he has left it. Sometimes such tests are arranged intentionally. A man is placed in such a position that he is obliged to leave and he is fully justified in having a grievance either against the teacher or against some other person. And then he is watched to see how he will behave. A decent man will behave decently even if he thinks that he has been treated unjustly or wrongly. But many people in such circumstances show a side of their nature which otherwise they would never show. And at times it is a necessary means for exposing a man's nature. So long as you are good to a man he is good to you. But what will he be like if you scratch him a little?

 

"But this is not the chief thing; the chief thing is his own personal attitude, his own valuation of the ideas which he receives or has received, and his keeping or losing this valuation. A man may think for a long time and quite sincerely that he wants to work and even make great efforts, and then he may throw up everything and even definitely go against the work; justify himself, invent various fabrications, deliberately ascribe a wrong meaning to what he has heard, and so on."

 

"What happens to them for this?" asked one of the audience.

 

"Nothing—what could happen to them?" said G. "They are their own punishment. And what punishment could be worse?

[dawei]

Alternately, "why is there some-thing rather than no-thing"...    replace 'thing' with 'one'

[Marblehead]

Alternately, "why is there some-thing rather than no-thing"...    replace 'thing' with 'one'

Because Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand Things.

[MooNiNite]

What a good quote by Gurdjieff. 

 

Hi, What is the first illumination you are referring to?

[Nungali]

Because Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand Things.

 

 

I like this ... I assume it is sourced ( by the wording )  form Daoism or some type of ' Chinese Philosophy ?  ... Of which I know little.

 

The reason I like it is , there are a range of subjects that I know more than a little of, and in their own way , declare this principle within their teaching.

 

So I am going to consider it a 'truth' . 

 

Oh ... it pasts my other 'test' too ;   I must see it enacted everywhere in nature .   

 

- I have been doing a bit of smelting lately *  and that has bought my awareness focus into the realm of ,  and seeing the' importance' of temperature or warmth ... another three ; Light, temperature, moisture. 

 

Go beyond our 'normal boundaries and 'matter' starts behaving in unusual way when you muddle with these three .

 

*  making some of these guys ; 

 

Edited June 18, 2015 by Nungali

[3bob]

"The law of three" per the fragments is another way or saying, "The Three" in Daoism.

[Nungali]

and now I have to ask ( rhetorically )  ...

 

Is that bismuth crystal here for a purpose ?

[Gerard]

Are we here for a purpose, or are we the result of evolution?

 

Yes and that is the most important thing for you to know, your life task: either to become a mother and rise X children, a businessman or a Taoist hermit.

 

All sentient beings evolve from the smallest worm to a highly evolved human or deva bound to become a Buddha or arahant.

[Nungali]

And since the topic was floating that way ... 

 

Regarding initiation, regardless of all the opinions out there, I have come to the conclusion that its essential components and purpose are the same regardless. 

 

But my view here is more on the level of cultural anthropology , i.e. an overview of initiation across time, in any culture, in any location .

 

Initiation is a process of . first, ' individuation '  in what ever the culture.  Members of that culture need to be educated (in a deep psychic or psychological way ) on their purpose, their individuality within their culture and its worth  and its ongoing development,  and  their contribution to and  the acknowledgement of and by their society. This gives the individual self - worth, pride and purpose.

 

But also educated in what the responsibilities of the individual are to that society. Its a trade off, what you give up and what you get back in return.

 

That's the first level; the ' natural man' becomes a 'cultural man'. The second level ( often in later life) is the cultural man becomes the 'magical man'.

 

The whole issue of one's purpose, will, direction, proclivity, life's calling - whatever - is all intertwined and worked out ( or discovered) even to the extent , at times, of the question of what one's purpose in life is,  - or particularly the ' what is the purpose of life' question - is incomprehensible .  I have  heard an indigenous person flummoxed and genuinely confused that people would need to ask this question. And if they did need to, what sort of society did they come from ... and what sort of society would that be  ! ? ?   

 

And other cultures that have lost their systems of initiation, like ours basically has, in general, are fucked up the same way as ours is, actually, by the same social indicators and the breakdown goes through the same stages too.

 

But the process is still out there and to be had in different way, You might seek it. You might fall into it ( the wanderer is lost and comes across a  cottage in a clearing ) , or captured and abducted into it  ( a very common theme and a more martial expression usually ) , any one conscripted  would know that one ...the 'military initiation' and process.There are many paths and entrances to the 'mysteries'.

 

So in many ways the experience is open to us still.   The importance with any group is that they follow the underlying patten properly to get a successful outcome ... there are plenty of bad ones and their cults about too.